That's the problem i have with using rumors as confirmation bias, yo can easily find one that supports the opposing view; Point in case, there have been rumors of Sony working closely with AMD developing Navi, so theres that.We discussed the whole breaking the bank thing yesterday or so, yeah?
I don't remember which video from DF it is but they said Microsoft visits AMD often (makes sense considering that their entire business is practically all things PC).
Given the system they put out (from a design perspective and/or money they were willing to spend to achieve it) in XOX I don't find the idea strange that they might be willing to pay for EUV.
IF they end up choosing EUV then there has to be a significant reason for it than "just" 10% gain IIRC over 7nm (you'd have to check TSMC technology report).
Communication is progress as the old saying goes...
That's not it. I asked you because in this hypothetical scenario your argument is MS does not intend to sell many Sneks (paper launch) and instead rely on Lockart, implying PS5 would skip on 7nm+ because its not ready for mass production.No, not only 1 million at launch, because at launch the early adaptor buy in for nearly any price.
The hype train its just getting started!Can’t believe this thread is still going round in circles.
- Sony didn’t actually release any specs.
- Whatever they have in dev kits now ain’t final
- And possibly won’t be for another year
- We know even less about next box
- Rumours, speculation and “insider” information is worthless
At this stage anyone saying Xbox (or PS5 for that matter) will be more powerful is talking out of their arse.
That's a dangerous thing to do (apologies for the subtitles, couldn't find a better clip):At this stage anyone saying Xbox (or PS5 for that matter) will be more powerful is talking out of their arse.
Most process today uses Ultraviolet to design the chip over the silicon (think about a 3D print but at nanometers size).Its easier to understand the + than to understand wtf EUV stands for.
No not a paper launch.That's not it. I asked you because in this hypothetical scenario your argument is MS does not intend to sell many Sneks (paper launch) and instead rely on Lockart, implying PS5 would skip on 7nm+ because its not ready for mass production.
1 million is way to much, if that kind of volume production is available, there is nothing stopping Sony from using it.
I think 'lockhart' is just the xbox one x.
Why would they go to the trouble of designing a new case + all new hardware, just to hit the drawing board again in 1-2 yrs time?
If anything, the xbox one x will be forward compatible. It has enough juice to play 1080p 60fps games, so I can see next gen games coming to the current gen.
Look at the start of this gen, we had a weird period of cross-over between ps360 games and xbox one/ps4 games. It makes sense to release a 4k game on Nextbox and a 1080p game on this current gen.
That way, Microsoft can get rid of the Xbox one and Xbox one S(AD) consoles. Consumers have a choice of three then; 1) Stick with the current xbox one SAD and play GAAS, 2) purchase an xbox one x to play GAAS and next gen at 1080p and 3) buy the most powerful version which will give you full backwards compatibility and access to all the new games.
TL;DR Microsoft have already started next gen and have fulfilled the dream of forwards compat AND tied two gens together without any of their users having to abandon the xbox family/make a choice between PlayStation and Xbox (like we saw this gen)
That's coming off of real performance metrics (not game-framerate measurements done by enthusiasts), in shipped games that had a setup similar enough to make the comparison relevant (and not cripple one side or the other by relying on elements that were significantly skewed, eg. PS3's ultra weak single CPU core or offloading GPU compute to SPE array).Thats not even close to the real world difference.
If you paired Cell+Xenos and kept the memory-configuration unchanged from 360, it'd be mostly a waste of resources, and I can practically guarantee it'd run some games worse than X360 did..If the PS3 had xenos + cell it would have been an absolute beast.
Here is even more evidence of what I said.
X2 most likely a chiplet design
Here is even more evidence of what I said.
X2 most likely a chiplet design
No not a paper launch.
Read about WPH output for 7nm and 7nm+
Because of EUV the latter is a lot lower. But if you go for less units, lower output does not matter.
Single Vs. Multi-Patterning EUV
Single Vs. Multi-Patterning EUV Why this choice isn't as obvious as it might look.semiengineering.com
If you need 5 million working dies a year or 15 million is a huge difference.
Why don't you get that?
And i also said, that not every part of the CHIP will be made in 7nm+
Sony is not using 7nm+, because they never intended to, don't need it for their performance goal and it would not be feasible for what they want to achieve.
Xbox One X and Lockhart will be different architectures.
Zen 2 is 7nm there is no Zen 2 in 7nm+ made and that will never happen. Zen 3 is 7nm+True, but
Where is your evidence that they will not use 7nm+? In really don’t get how all these discussions go all over place.
It’s very possible that next Xbox might release later than PS5 and/or at a higher price (alongside a weaker and lower priced version - which would give them some leeway to price the “pro” model higher). It’s also somewhat possible that MS is willing to lose money on hardware as they push more toward subscription services.That's the problem i have with using rumors as confirmation bias, yo can easily find one that supports the opposing view; Point in case, there have been rumors of Sony working closely with AMD developing Navi, so theres that.
I rather look at the known facts and use critical thinking here
- Sony wants to make the best console they can, a true generational leap. They will use the best tech available for mass production (that includes EUV if available)
- MS is not going to lose million or billions to release a more powerful console
- Nextbox would have to be significantly more expensive ($200+) to showcase a significant gap while releasing at the same time
Zen 2 is 7nm there is no Zen 2 in 7nm+ made and that will never happen. Zen 3 is 7nm+
Ps5 is based on Navi 10 and Navi 10 is also 7nm.
Anaconda is probably based on Arcturus (Navi 20) which is due later and rumored to be 7nm+
No. The next Xbox (both consoles) will also use Zen2 in 7nmSo the next Xbox is going to use Zen3 the same year Zen3 will be doing their trial runs (by mid year at that)? Sounds expensive.
No. The next Xbox (both consoles) will also use Zen2 in 7nm
Just for Anaconda and the GPU part, they'll use the more expensive 7nm+ node.
Most likely both next gen consoles will be using chiplets instead of a single piece of silicon.So you are saying they are going with a discrete setup and not an SOC?
This still does not seem financially sound for the console maker.
Most likely both next gen consoles will be using chiplets instead of a single piece of silicon.
No. The next Xbox (both consoles) will also use Zen2 in 7nm
Just for Anaconda and the GPU part, they'll use the more expensive 7nm+ node.
Yes, they will go with something like this:So you are saying they are going with a discrete setup and not an SOC?
This still does not seem financially sound for the console maker.
Looks like me in a pub drinking some beers and writing on the paperPosted?
Baseless Next Generation Rumors with no Technical Merits [pre E3 2019] *spawn*
would love for the nextgen consoles to be user-upgradable beyond just the storage.. nice modular pieces parts. Oh, you want the midgen cpu and gpu upgrade? Just slide out the main board model and slide in this upgrade board. All similiar to older style laptop modules. Ah yes, the holy grail...forum.beyond3d.com
Looks like me in a pub drinking some beers and writing on the paper
I’m drinking now... do you guys wants to see my leaks?
Looks like a real leak to me. A desktop like approach but build with chiplets .Something MS would do and want. Only way to outperform the competition with today’s tech. To detailed to be made up imo.
It’s also somewhat possible that MS is willing to lose money on hardware as they push more toward subscription services.
As it turns out despite the 2:1 sold ratio (40M vs 90M+-) the revenue for their gaming division was/is 10B vs 12.5B
Looks like a real leak to me. A desktop like approach but build with chiplets .Something MS would do and want. Only way to outperform the competition with today’s tech. To detailed to be made up imo.
Microsoft's gaming division made $11.6bn in CY2018How Microsoft’s record-setting $10B gaming year compares to rivals Sony and Nintendo
In a fiscal year littered with firsts, Microsoft's gaming division hit a new high water mark.www.geekwire.com
That says $10B for Microsoft and $17.7B for Sony. Which would be pretty much in line with the market share.
Is it? because I came across different figures and went with the 12.5 as that popped up on 2 sites.
Jaguar CPU / Polaris GPU is not the same as Zen 2 CPU / Navi GPU. While they share similarities the Zen 2 / Navi combo will have more features and greater efficiencies than the Jaguar / Polaris combo, however, they won’t be one in the same.Have Microsoft stated as much and how different will they be?
I don't know much about this stuff tbh, so any info would be appreciated
Here is even more evidence of what I said.
X2 most likely a chiplet design
No not a paper launch.
Read about WPH output for 7nm and 7nm+
Because of EUV the latter is a lot lower. But if you go for less units, lower output does not matter.
Single Vs. Multi-Patterning EUV
Single Vs. Multi-Patterning EUV Why this choice isn't as obvious as it might look.semiengineering.com
If you need 5 million working dies a year or 15 million is a huge difference.
Why don't you get that?
And i also said, that not every part of the CHIP will be made in 7nm+
Sony is not using 7nm+, because they never intended to, don't need it for their performance goal and it would not be feasible for what they want to achieve.
Here is even more evidence of what I said.
X2 most likely a chiplet design
No not a paper launch.
Read about WPH output for 7nm and 7nm+
Because of EUV the latter is a lot lower. But if you go for less units, lower output does not matter.
Single Vs. Multi-Patterning EUV
Single Vs. Multi-Patterning EUV Why this choice isn't as obvious as it might look.semiengineering.com
If you need 5 million working dies a year or 15 million is a huge difference.
Why don't you get that?
And i also said, that not every part of the CHIP will be made in 7nm+
Sony is not using 7nm+, because they never intended to, don't need it for their performance goal and it would not be feasible for what they want to achieve.
I'd be careful with quoting blue. He's a nice guy and knowledgeable about computer architecture, but falls into the trap of throwing anything that will stick and make it look like it's fact. Not too dissimilar from what a couple of posters here at GAF does, but this is where the whole 2nd GPU on x1 came from.
There wasn't much to begin with via via saying sources that work at Microsoft and have been trustworthy for years.This train is running downhill and just lost them brakes
AMD’s Zen 3 CPUs can increase transistor count by 20% over Ryzen 3000 thanks to TSMC’s 7nm+ node
TSMC has already started volume production of its next generation 7nm process; the first to incorporate its advanced EUV tech, and the node which should form the basis for AMD’s Zen 3 processors next year. The Taiwanese contract manufacturer started mass production of the 7nm+ process in March this year, which is a huge milestone for the technology, and it’s being used to create HiSilicon’s phone SoC, the Kirin 985.
That's coming off of real performance metrics (not game-framerate measurements done by enthusiasts), in shipped games that had a setup similar enough to make the comparison relevant (and not cripple one side or the other by relying on elements that were significantly skewed, eg. PS3's ultra weak single CPU core or offloading GPU compute to SPE array).
Now - it was absolutely possible to construct scenarios that favor one GPU or the other, but that's just moving the goal-posts. The fact that RSX had several games that ran at higher (and up to 2x) resolution of 360 counterparts says all that needs to be said about relative differences between the two being smaller than X1 to PS4.
If you paired Cell+Xenos and kept the memory-configuration unchanged from 360, it'd be mostly a waste of resources, and I can practically guarantee it'd run some games worse than X360 did..