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TV Calibration tip, RGB Limited VS Full
- Thread starter Whitecrow
- Start date
Whitecrow
Banned
In the case your TV supports full, then yes.
Brightness in TVs is an offset that moves all colors up and down in gray scale with the possibility of moving colors below the minimum black the TV can display. And all those colors below the minimum will be lost, and you get the crush.
Align the offset correctly with the pattern we posted from Lagom, and you are good to go.
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JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
Damage control here are the facts:
Most modern TVs support full 8-bit RGB. None support 10-bit RGB due to HDMI limitations, which is why for HDR YUV 4:2:2 is better than RGB
In othewords, if you try to force RGB with HDR you will only get 8-bit color.
Most modern TVs support full 8-bit RGB. None support 10-bit RGB due to HDMI limitations, which is why for HDR YUV 4:2:2 is better than RGB
In othewords, if you try to force RGB with HDR you will only get 8-bit color.
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Larxia
Member
I don't actually use TV personnally, just PC monitors.
One monitor I have uses hdmi and everytime I update the Nvidia drivers the nvidia settings are set to limited and it's very washed out so I have to set it again to full. I guess maybe it's different on TVs.
Lightsbane
Member
Ah yes, I've had that problem as well. Having to go into the Control Panel to set the range again, after a driver update.
I also use a monitor 99% of the time. Even for console gaming.
My new monitor doesn't even have the option for anything other than full (0-255). My old Samsung did. Of course I still used full, as I always do with monitors, but the option was there.
Reallink
Member
With console's especially, the developers have to assume 95% of players are on a TV set to Limited. Many 10's of million's of TV's in use don't have an RGB range settings, and of those that do, only a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of users actually go into the settings to change it to full (both on the consoles and TV). Logically, it seems all but guaranteed developers are "mastering" to limited.
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xion4360
Member
when it comes to consoles on a TV I messed around with RGB Full vs Limited for a long time on the ps4 and xbox one on my Sony xbrx800d and ultimately landed on leaving it at limited. there is no noticeable difference when it comes to the brightness or contrast ratio in the image but what you DO notice is the color depth. When you set it to RGB full you get 8 bit (444) color and that leaves you with noticeable banding in some places, particularly where bright lights are in the middle of dark backgrounds. when you set it to RGB limited you get 10 bit (422) color which leaves little to no banding ever. (HDR is always 10 bit 422, or 420 if you set it)
so the argument is about 8 bit vs 10 bit, as nothing else makes a difference and HDR is always limited eitherway. On xbox this is the recommended option and on PS4 you have to manually set it to limited and have deep color automatic.
so the argument is about 8 bit vs 10 bit, as nothing else makes a difference and HDR is always limited eitherway. On xbox this is the recommended option and on PS4 you have to manually set it to limited and have deep color automatic.
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Whitecrow
Banned
I mean, that makes sense, but for some years ago. For now, not too much.
Consoles have the option to output to Full for a reason, and having that option, mastering to limited is a waste.
Full is a slightly wider color gamut and a lot of TVs and PC monitors support it.
How in the world a software architect would master for Limited and get 'distortion' at full, and not in reverse?
Common sense would say it's better to be mastering for Full to be able to take advantage of all resources at your disposal, and then scale it down if needed.
I would bet that is what is happening this gen.
In SDR, both Full and limited uses 8bit.
Consoles have the option to output to Full for a reason, and having that option, mastering to limited is a waste.
Full is a slightly wider color gamut and a lot of TVs and PC monitors support it.
How in the world a software architect would master for Limited and get 'distortion' at full, and not in reverse?
Common sense would say it's better to be mastering for Full to be able to take advantage of all resources at your disposal, and then scale it down if needed.
I would bet that is what is happening this gen.
You are talking in HDR terms. This discussion is about SDR, or that's what I intended.
In SDR, both Full and limited uses 8bit.
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xion4360
Member
I made the distinction that HDR is always limited. On this TV and probably others, you can get 8 or 10 bit color from the PRO and X in SDR with the difference being 444 chroma or 422.
Limited is 10 bit 422 and full is 8 bit 444. It makes a difference in how much banding you see, and that seems to be the only noticeable thing as Full vs Limited gives you the same result if everything is set correctly. you ARE NOT going to notice the difference in chroma subsampling between 444 and 422, but you WILL notice banding.. The xbox one has a 32 bit option but its USELESS (unless you have an actual 12 bit panel lol) as setting it to 32 (12 bit) will revert the image back down to 8 bit.
Of course none of this matters if you dont have a 10 bit panel (If your TV supports HDR10 or dolby vision then it should have a 10 bit panel)
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zeomax
Member
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I don't see how this is a discussion of which is "better".
If you have the source set (or only capable) of limited and the TV is set to Full, you'll get gray instead of black toward the lower range.
If you have the source set to full and the TV is set to limited, you'll get clipped blacks.
Set it on your display that matches the source.
...damn Nintendo with their Wii U.
If you have the source set (or only capable) of limited and the TV is set to Full, you'll get gray instead of black toward the lower range.
If you have the source set to full and the TV is set to limited, you'll get clipped blacks.
Set it on your display that matches the source.
...damn Nintendo with their Wii U.
Whitecrow
Banned
Rgb format goes from 0 to 255 for each color... which needs 8 bit to represent. You are mixing ideas : /
xion4360
Member
then you'll have to enlighten me. 0-255 is the full range (4.4.4 chroma subsampling or uncompressed pixels). in games that mean 8bit RGB full, outside of games none of that matters because everything is mastered a certain way and the console isnt going to change that. but the pro and X support HDR at 4K and so they support 10 bit at 4.2.2. ( or YCbCr 4:2:2 but the console will convert to RGB) you dont HAVE to have HDR enabled to take advantage of a 10bit panel. setting your console to display at limited range with deep color (10 bit on xbox and deep color auto on ps4) will give you a 10 bit 422 image in sdr.. that means less banding in games even though the picture is technically compressed over the 8 bit 444 picture.
If your talking about TV's HDR at 4K is only in the limited range and it does not use RGB.
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Psykodad
Banned
. what do you mean by "tv's hdr at 4k"?
xion4360
Member
were getting each other confused. Your talking about your TV and whether you should set your tv limited or full or your console to limited or full when it comes to HDR content?
Psykodad
Banned
I'm talking about my console. I currently have it set to full rgb. Does this affect HDR negatively when playing games or using netflix or whatever?
Sorry for the confusion.
Check your TV setting. If PS4 is full, then TV needs to send full/High HDMI black level. Personally i would recommend just using Limited on console and Low/Limited on the TV as well. As others have said, the picture should look identical between low+low and high+high.
Bonus for using limited/low is that you don't have to worry about setting it to Low manually later if you watch a Bluray for example, as they are meant to be shown with limited.
zeomax
Member
It depends what your TV is doing if it get a HDR signal. The console switches always to limited for HDR content. If your TV stays at full and not switching to limited then yes you will get washed out colors.
The best way is still set both console and TV manually to limited and not using the auto function.
xion4360
Member
OK I get it... just know that when you start up any HDR content, whether thats a game or Netflix, your console will automatically switch out from that rgb full to YCC 422 or 420 (and that is limited range) so if your TV setting are manually set to FULL range, its going to look WRONG when HDR comes on..you have to set the tv to AUTO so that is automatically switches to limited when HDR comes on.
xion4360
Member
Let me reiterate some things just so people arent confused or reading scattered comments. This only applies to playing high end console games on your TV.
If you have an 8 bit panel (an HDTV or 4K tv that does not support HDR) and it supports RGB full then YES set it to full for your console input. you'll get the full range of your TV's capabilities and an uncompressed image. for TV viewing it must be in limited as whatever signal is coming in from your cable box or your bluray player is NOT in that full rgb range.
If you have a 10 bit panel (an HDR capable 4K tv most likely) then its up to you. same rules apply.. anything other than a PC or console probably has no use for the RGB full range.
But a PS4 Pro or Xbox one S/X do have 4K 10 bit capability and you can take advantage of that 10 bit image if you wish. Your options are
- RGB Full - 8 Bit 4.4.4 completely uncompressed image when displaying in SDR (HDR will be slightly compressed to 4.2.2. or 4.2.0. in YCC or YUV because it is IMPOSSIBLE to not compress a 4K 60HDR image using current HDMI standards)
-RGB Limited (PS4 RGB Limited with deep color auto/Xbox One Standard range with 10 bit color depth) This will give you a slightly compressed 10 bit 4.2.2. or 4.2.0. image in SDR and makes no difference in HDR. The benefit to this is that SDR will also take advantage of your TV's 10 bit panel to show less banding across the image which may or may not be too noticeable depending on what is onscreen. Color banding IS the only noticeable difference you will see between the uncompressed 8 bit 444 image and the slightly compressed 10 bit 422 image when it comes to playing a console game.
The OP's point about color range and more color information being available in the Full RGB range only applies to PC content..Monitors tend to use this full RGB range because the uncompressed 4.4.4. image helps make clear pixel based text better. Some PC games may also take advantage of this but this is NOT relevant to console games. The consoles are designed and the game that are made for them are also designed to look good on a wide range of televisions and that means supporting the LIMITED rgb range by default..any color value the developers assign to an image must be scaled internally to look appropriate on the tvs most people use. That is why the uncompressed 444 image and the slightly compressed 422 image look virtually identical.. you would have to look at a still image, in full 4K at the pixel level, this means eyes directly in front of the screen, and at very specific type of image with sharp lines and varying color to possibly be able to tell the tiny difference in clarity between 444 and 422. as soon as the image moves AT ALL that tiny difference would go out the window.
"Doesnt matter if matching console and TV avoids black crush and white clipping, YOU ACTUALLY LOSE BRIGHTNESS STEPS.
To be specific, you lose 16 + 20 (255- 235) = 36 steps, wich is actually huge, and it translates in a significant lose of detail and bland picture"
This is obviously incorrect. the console will simply shrink whatever value would be outside of the 16-235 to that specific range. this happens internally before the image is sent out to the TV, so whatever you do wont matter...and every game is designed to work this way. setting to RGB full simply reassigns the values back to the original but it does not create new ones, it simply stretches the values back up. that is why the picture is no less brighter, or more colorful in full vs standard. the ONLY reason you would lose brightness steps or see a blander picture is because you INCORRECTLY set your TV's rgb range when compared to the console.
If you have an 8 bit panel (an HDTV or 4K tv that does not support HDR) and it supports RGB full then YES set it to full for your console input. you'll get the full range of your TV's capabilities and an uncompressed image. for TV viewing it must be in limited as whatever signal is coming in from your cable box or your bluray player is NOT in that full rgb range.
If you have a 10 bit panel (an HDR capable 4K tv most likely) then its up to you. same rules apply.. anything other than a PC or console probably has no use for the RGB full range.
But a PS4 Pro or Xbox one S/X do have 4K 10 bit capability and you can take advantage of that 10 bit image if you wish. Your options are
- RGB Full - 8 Bit 4.4.4 completely uncompressed image when displaying in SDR (HDR will be slightly compressed to 4.2.2. or 4.2.0. in YCC or YUV because it is IMPOSSIBLE to not compress a 4K 60HDR image using current HDMI standards)
-RGB Limited (PS4 RGB Limited with deep color auto/Xbox One Standard range with 10 bit color depth) This will give you a slightly compressed 10 bit 4.2.2. or 4.2.0. image in SDR and makes no difference in HDR. The benefit to this is that SDR will also take advantage of your TV's 10 bit panel to show less banding across the image which may or may not be too noticeable depending on what is onscreen. Color banding IS the only noticeable difference you will see between the uncompressed 8 bit 444 image and the slightly compressed 10 bit 422 image when it comes to playing a console game.
The OP's point about color range and more color information being available in the Full RGB range only applies to PC content..Monitors tend to use this full RGB range because the uncompressed 4.4.4. image helps make clear pixel based text better. Some PC games may also take advantage of this but this is NOT relevant to console games. The consoles are designed and the game that are made for them are also designed to look good on a wide range of televisions and that means supporting the LIMITED rgb range by default..any color value the developers assign to an image must be scaled internally to look appropriate on the tvs most people use. That is why the uncompressed 444 image and the slightly compressed 422 image look virtually identical.. you would have to look at a still image, in full 4K at the pixel level, this means eyes directly in front of the screen, and at very specific type of image with sharp lines and varying color to possibly be able to tell the tiny difference in clarity between 444 and 422. as soon as the image moves AT ALL that tiny difference would go out the window.
"Doesnt matter if matching console and TV avoids black crush and white clipping, YOU ACTUALLY LOSE BRIGHTNESS STEPS.
To be specific, you lose 16 + 20 (255- 235) = 36 steps, wich is actually huge, and it translates in a significant lose of detail and bland picture"
This is obviously incorrect. the console will simply shrink whatever value would be outside of the 16-235 to that specific range. this happens internally before the image is sent out to the TV, so whatever you do wont matter...and every game is designed to work this way. setting to RGB full simply reassigns the values back to the original but it does not create new ones, it simply stretches the values back up. that is why the picture is no less brighter, or more colorful in full vs standard. the ONLY reason you would lose brightness steps or see a blander picture is because you INCORRECTLY set your TV's rgb range when compared to the console.
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Silent blades
Member
So I used the LCD black level test page and could distinguish all the individual boxes. Does that mean I’m GTG?
Nydus
Member
This should be the top result of someone is googling this problem! Thanks for the explanation. I was unsure if I can set a pro to limited since I need the TV to be limited in gaming mode.
xion4360
Member
this is perfectly fine.. the only reason the consoles support rgb full really is for people who play them on a PC monitor, and for those that have 4k 10 bit panels well you can get that uncompressed image if you want.
Psykodad
Banned
So, if I own a 4k 10 bit panel, full rgb is slightly more beneficial?
base
Banned
Only in SDR.
xion4360
Member
If you want no compression. i personally prefer the benefit of the 10 bit panel.
No. Full/full and Low/Limited should look identical. I got an LG C7. As long as you match settings, you're good. If you want to confirm yourself, just try those settings yourself though, just make sure you do not mismatch them.
888
Member
Between my Onkyo and Sony XBR, even if I set it to Full RGB, they auto switch to whatever the media is on the PS4 or Xbox.
I always run my PC monitors at Full but I have always been under the impression that TV is limited. Always have ran that way. Full on TVs end up with crushed blacks.
Also trying to run Full RGB I get a warning on bandwidth support at 10bit on my Sony. Even though I think it is just a generic warning when switching to it. Both my receiver and tv support that from what I remember.
I always run my PC monitors at Full but I have always been under the impression that TV is limited. Always have ran that way. Full on TVs end up with crushed blacks.
Also trying to run Full RGB I get a warning on bandwidth support at 10bit on my Sony. Even though I think it is just a generic warning when switching to it. Both my receiver and tv support that from what I remember.
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xion4360
Member
you cant do 10 bit at RGB full through HDMI so thats why you are getting that message. maybe with 30herts but not 60
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LostDonkey
Member
What setting am I looking for on a LG HDR TV. If the PS4 is set to Limited what should the setting on the TV be?
xion4360
Member
Limited...whatever you console is the tv needs to also be..unless HDR is on then it must always be limited.
if you use RGB full then your tv should have an auto option, otherwise HDR will become a very annoying problem.
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If PS4 is limited, then set your TV to Low. If you want, try PS4 at full and TV at high, should still look identical.
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LostDonkey
Member
What is that under in the menu though. It doesnt say full or limited anywhere.
I have a Gamma setting (low, medium, high1, high2) , a Black Level setting (Auto, low, high)
LostDonkey
Member
Ok but that will mess with HDR when it kicks in right? (Full/high)
God this is confusing.
888
Member
Yup. Your right. Thanks for reminding me. I did a ton of research when I got the tv but forgot it all after I got the settings right.
xion4360
Member
Does it say HDMI black level? then its low. If your going with limited on the ps4 then dont worry about HDR. low will be the correct setting always.
this should only apply to that input though, most tvs let you change these for every input.
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Your Black Level is the RGB level, just using a different name. Low=limited and High=full. Make sure it's matched that way.
HDR will automatically use Limited no matter what, so as long as you match full+high or low+limited you'll be fine.
xion4360
Member
True but if you set it to high/full then when HDR comes on it might stay that way and be wrong.. I dont know how this particular TV works..check that it auto switches so you dont have a problem.
LostDonkey
Member
Its the SJ810V SUHD line if that helps.
xion4360
Member
sounds like your OK with limited/low setting anyway. dont worry about the HDR switch.
base
Banned
That's why just leave it at Auto. My Ks8000 works totally fine with ps4 pro at Auto. Why you guys have to make it more complicated?
VisualFidelity
Member
There is 100% difference in limited versus full when both set correctly. More Shadow detail in the brights and colors have more depth and variety. The difference is like looking at an uncalibrated TV versus a calibrated one
VisualFidelity
Member
it should be also noted that when I would view YouTube or Netflix app on my Xbox they always seemed more dim and dull compared to when I watch them on my TV apps version. Now that I'm using PC full settings on my Xbox, those apps look brilliant now and I actually had to turn down the brightness and they look very punchy
xion4360
Member
umm no, again there is no difference when you set it correctly.. there is definitely something else going on if you are seeing noticeable differences in limited vs full. you do realize that your TV only supports this full version when using HDMI.. your tvs apps all run under limited. thats is why there is no option to change RGB range outside of HDMI inputs. Make sure the input you are using for your xbox has its HDMI black level to low, RGB or video range to limited, change your xbox setting to standard and then run the built in calibration tool in your xbox.
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Whitecrow
Banned
That is what outputting in limited means.
Limited have less brightness shades, doesnt matter how you put it.
From 0 to 255 gives you more shades than 16 to 235. You cant fit 255 into 219 without compressing.
xion4360
Member
you really dont understand this. its not that the values outside of 16-235 are brighter or darker than what you get within that.. its that if your range is higher there is more possibility for you to gradually adjust the color from bright white to dark black.
If you say 0 is a certain color (Lets say black 001) in a full range RGB, then in limited range RGB you simply make 16= black 001
in the end its the exact same color just inside of a more limited range.
now if you created something to look a certain way within that range of 16-235, turning it into 0-255 by turning on RGB full doesnt suddenly make the whites whiter or the blacks blacker (in fact it would make it washed out) so instead they readjust the values so 0 becomes black 001 and the values in between dont matter or simply equal the same color of black 001 so it doesnt change the ultimate picture.
ANYTHING designed to be seen on a TV works in limited range... cable boxes, dvd and blu ray everything. you cant change that by forcing RGB full on a console, it just changes the values.
This is why people will forever be confused by Full and Limited. they see the word "full" and automatically associate it with "better" with no sense of how things work behinds the scenes. How do you think HDR works?
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