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[Whitecrow]

Almost final conclusion after further testing:

First, and most important, debunking the myth:
On TVs, HDMI Black Level is not an option to make the TV support a Full RGB input.

So what does the the HDMI black level option?
The HDMI black level option is an ENHACEMENT that may be applied to a LIMITED rgb signal in order to bring the blacks down to the lowest the TV can output without decreasing the brightness.

Low = ON = Make the limited signal as black as possible maintaining highest brightnes and obtaining highest contrast. Recommended.
Normal = OFF = No enhacement, doesnt care about the signal. Output as it comes.

And that's it.

And for the Limited VS Full output, I stand by Full can display more detail. It's only logical. I'm sure of it.

I'll try to find a way to show it. I'll then update this thread again with whatever results I come with.

**********************************************
Note: This applies to gaming, not BD/DVD playback. For video there's no debate, it's limited always.

Well, I finally got to a conclusion of this debate.

After a wiide research and some trial and error, I can finally say what is best and why.

And the winner is........

******* RGB Full ********* (Congrats!)

First, what is this debate about?

As we 'all' know, current gen consoles come with the option to output video in those two RGB formats, Limited or Full. While in full, reference black is set at 0, and reference white at 255 color levels, in limited RGB, black is 16 and white is 235.

If you ask google about what you should use for better colors, the first conclusion one could draw is that Full are the so called 'PC levels', and Limited 'video levels', and that consoles connected to TVs should use limited, because TVs are designed for video, not PC.
Most of articles recommend limited EVEN IF THE TV SUPPORTS FULL because... well, they dont know what they are talking about:

This one at hand:
https://www.howtogeek.com/295569/should-i-use-rgb-limited-or-rgb-full-on-my-playstation-or-xbox/

Tells you to use limited for games because you will lose details in movies = )

And this one,
https://referencehometheater.com/2014/commentary/rgb-full-vs-limited/
got from there ( https://www.neogaf.com/threads/ques...-limited-on-consoles-connected-to-tv.1276734/ )

Tells you not to use full because... brightness settings ended its existence and then blacks get crushed without remedy.

And that's precisely why I went limited on my TV (that supports full RGB)... until today.

That's one concern. The other one is that people seem to acknowledge that Limited and Full outputs the same, you just need to match the console output range with the TV input range, but at the end you get the same display, because TV changes the gamma curve and blah blah

So yeah, not quite.

Limited can perfectly stand for compressed RGB. (It's what it is actually)

Doesnt matter if matching console and TV avoids black crush and white clipping, YOU ACTUALLY LOSE BRIGHTNESS STEPS.
To be specific, you lose 16 + 20 (255- 235) = 36 steps, wich is actually huge, and it translates in a significant lose of detail and bland picture.

If you want to try, use this (you can acces via console browser too)
http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php

If you put everything on RGB full and you got crushed blacks, crank your brightness up until the TV can display the 1 black square differently from the pure black background.
Notice that this brightness calibration test only works if the brightness settings of the display act as a black level offset for the colors (TVs), and not panel luminance, like cheap PC monitors like mine does.

In lagom page, you can also use the contrast and white level pages to see if you have too much contrast or your whites are clipping.

And to conclude, I wanna answer another question that arises from all of this, and that is:
'Are games designed for limited or full rgb?'

And the answer is: Games are designed for RGB. Just RGB. And full is better than compressed.

Limited only exists to map reference white and reference black to a TV that only supports limited and BD/DVD playback, as they are mastered in Limited.

So, if you know for sure your TV supports Full RGB, go for it!!

 

[DrNeroCF]

Dude someone tried to argue with me on YouTube that limited was better than full, that limited was the default so it was better or something. Hope he plays his games with garbage overscan crop and motion smoothing, too.

 

[base]

Not every TV supports Full RGB.

 

[base]

Plus, if you go Full RGB you won't get proper HDR because of HDMI limitation. It'll switch to YUV420.

 

[Imtjnotu]

Not every TV supports Full RGB.

Most TVs from 2014 on do.

 

[Armorian]

Set Full on console and standard black hdmi level on tv and voila, I'm rolling like this since 2009 (PS3). Bigger deal is 4:4:4 chroma

 

[base]

Set Full on console and standard black hdmi level on tv and voila, I'm rolling like this since 2009 (PS3). Bigger deal is 4:4:4 chroma

If you watch Bluray movies on the console you may have a problem if you set it to Full RGB. Most movies are recorded in Limited.

 

[Whitecrow]

If you watch Bluray movies on the console you may have a problem if you set it to Full RGB. Most movies are recorded in Limited.

Yeah, I think I have to state that a little bit more.

Dude someone tried to argue with me on YouTube that limited was better than full, that limited was the default so it was better or something. Hope he plays his games with garbage overscan crop and motion smoothing, too.

Hahahaha some day he will see the light too.

 

[Armorian]

If you watch Bluray movies on the console you may have a problem if you set it to Full RGB. Most movies are recorded in Limited.

This could be true, I don't watch BD.

For non HDR users Full RGB 4:4:4 chroma is way to go. Good thing that with 9 gen HDR won't be nerfed so 4:4:4 will be possible - that's the point when I will buy HDR tv

 

[Nydus]

I had to set my TV to limited. When I want to game with HDR from my pc to my TV win10 uses 8 bit with dithering. I have to force 422 10 bit and this can only do limited. It's not a big deal but a bit of a hassle since I think I have to set the TV to full again if I want to play on my PS4.

 

[VisualFidelity]

So should we still go Full if we have HDR sets? I don't want to lose HDR by doing this.

 

[base]

This could be true, I don't watch BD.

For non HDR users Full RGB 4:4:4 chroma is way to go. Good thing that with 9 gen HDR won't be nerfed so 4:4:4 will be possible - that's the point when I will buy HDR tv

Just wait for HDMI 2.1. There will be enough bandwidth for Full RGB HDR which should be better than YUV4:2:2

 

[base]

So should we still go Full if we have HDR sets? I don't want to lose HDR by doing this.

Set it to Auto when using HDR. If you set it to Full RGB you will get YUV420, if to Limited you will get either YUV422. HDMI Limitation. Wait for HDMI2.1 TVs.

 

[VisualFidelity]

So I just put my HDMI level on high vs low and then changed my color space to full on my Xbox One X and WOW, massive improvements.

My games look sharper, no longer washed out, I'm seeing way more details in the bright spots, and banding in the skies has been almost completely reduced to I rarely see it now. This is on my B7 OLED. It literally looks like I just got my TV calibrated or something.

THANK YOU OP, this cured my headaches with my games! And HDR works just as good if not better it seems

 

[base]

Ok but what about details and blacks? Have you considered that you won't see many things in dark places?

 

[Inviusx]

Or just leave everything as Automatic.....

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Color depth > resolution, in my opinion. Good write up, OP.

 

[Lightsbane]

I've been using limited on TVs and full on monitors, for years, and I've never seen the need to change.

Or just leave everything as Automatic.....

Bad idea. If I set both the TV and the PS4 to automatic, I get a grey image.

 

[TLZ]

Note: This applies to gaming, not BD/DVD playback. For video there's no debate, it's limited always.

Well, I finally got to a conclusion of this debate.

After a wiide research and some trial and error, I can finally say what is best and why.

And the winner is........

******* RGB Full ********* (Congrats!)

First, what is this debate about?

As we 'all' know, current gen consoles come with the option to output video in those two RGB formats, Limited or Full. While in full, reference black is set at 0, and reference white at 255 color levels, in limited RGB, black is 16 and white is 235.

If you ask google about what you should use for better colors, the first conclusion one could draw is that Full are the so called 'PC levels', and Limited 'video levels', and that consoles connected to TVs should use limited, because TVs are designed for video, not PC.
Most of articles recommend limited EVEN IF THE TV SUPPORTS FULL because... well, they dont know what they are talking about:

This one at hand:
https://www.howtogeek.com/295569/should-i-use-rgb-limited-or-rgb-full-on-my-playstation-or-xbox/

Tells you to use limited for games because you will lose details in movies = )

And this one,
https://referencehometheater.com/2014/commentary/rgb-full-vs-limited/
got from there ( https://www.neogaf.com/threads/ques...-limited-on-consoles-connected-to-tv.1276734/ )

Tells you not to use full because... brightness settings ended its existence and then blacks get crushed without remedy.

And that's precisely why I went limited on my TV (that supports full RGB)... until today.

That's one concern. The other one is that people seem to acknowledge that Limited and Full outputs the same, you just need to match the console output range with the TV input range, but at the end you get the same display, because TV changes the gamma curve and blah blah

So yeah, not quite.

Limited can perfectly stand for compressed RGB. (It's what it is actually)

Doesnt matter if matching console and TV avoids black crush and white clipping, YOU ACTUALLY LOSE BRIGHTNESS STEPS.
To be specific, you lose 16 + 20 (255- 235) = 36 steps, wich is actually huge, and it translates in a significant lose of detail and bland picture.

If you want to try, use this (you can acces via console browser too)
http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php

If you put everything on RGB full and you got crushed blacks, crank your brightness up until the TV can display the 1 black square differently from the pure black background.
Notice that this brightness calibration test only works if the brightness settings of the display act as a black level offset for the colors (TVs), and not panel luminance, like cheap PC monitors like mine does.

In lagom page, you can also use the contrast and white level pages to see if you have too much contrast or your whites are clipping.

And to conclude, I wanna answer another question that arises from all of this, and that is:
'Are games designed for limited or full rgb?'

And the answer is: Games are designed for RGB. Just RGB. And full is better than compressed.

Limited only exists to map reference white and reference black to a TV that only supports limited and BD/DVD playback, as they are mastered in Limited.

So, if you know for sure your TV supports Full RGB, go for it!!

I'm trying the gamma test there and no matter what I do my gamma is all wrong. I'm on 2.2 but according to that gamma image, the 48% are all at 1.2-1.3 gamma :/

How do I fix this?

 

[Larxia]

Wait I'm confused, there are people using limited RGB on purpose? Why?
Isn't RGB limited just worse in every ways? It looks extremely washed out and there's less depth, so why using it? Because on TVs it's too dark? Isn't it better to juste usb full rgb and if it's too dark set the brightness / gamma higher?

 

[n0razi]

I have an LG OLED and a PS4 Pro... Limited looks like shit running in HDR

 

[zeomax]

So I just put my HDMI level on high vs low and then changed my color space to full on my Xbox One X and WOW, massive improvements. My games look sharper, no longer washed out

Wait I'm confused, there are people using limited RGB on purpose? Why?
Isn't RGB limited just worse in every ways? It looks extremely washed out and there's less depth

The washed out image is only happens if you set the color range wrong. If it is both full/full or limited/limited there is no difference. Well there could be a difference but it depends on your TV how it handle it. To say in general that full is always better is wrong. I tested it on my B7 OLED with a lot of games and there is absolutely no difference if everything is set properly. But my TV is hardware calibrated this could be a reason why there is no difference.

 

[baphomet]

Yeah, no.

 

[Virex]

OP seems to be very very uninformed

 

[Whitecrow]

Or just leave everything as Automatic.....

With auto, consoles seems to go always for limited when hooked up to TVs, that's how it seems to be coded. But if your TV supports full, you should select it by yourself.

I've been using limited on TVs and full on monitors, for years, and I've never seen the need to change.
Bad idea. If I set both the TV and the PS4 to automatic, I get a grey image.

If your TV supports full, there's no point in keeping it to limited.

I'm trying the gamma test there and no matter what I do my gamma is all wrong. I'm on 2.2 but according to that gamma image, the 48% are all at 1.2-1.3 gamma :/

How do I fix this?

That test is a bit tricky. I still dont know how that test responds to color temperature and all other settings of the display, but for what you are saying, I assume your screen almost basically white and washed out.
I remember that some time ago, I used quick gamma with my PC to get it all close to 2.2 as possible, and the result was an incredibly whashed out image.
I'd suggest to dont touch gamma via software or color profiling, and let the display do it's thing, even if it doesnt nail the 2.2 sweetpot. But that's a suggestion, I'm far from expert in gamma calibration.

The washed out image is only happens if you set the color range wrong. If it is both full/full or limited/limited there is no difference. Well there could be a difference but it depends on your TV how it handle it. To say in general that full is always better is wrong. I tested it on my B7 OLED with a lot of games and there is absolutely no difference if everything is set properly. But my TV is hardware calibrated this could be a reason why there is no difference.

I can promise you theres a difference. There's no way that limited reproduces the same colors than full.
Limited have only 219 values available for RGB values while full have 255, which obviously, gives you less colors to display. See:

RGB color range:
|-------------------------------------------|
limited display:
---|---------------------------------|-------
Full display:
|-------------------------------------------|

In limited, the steps between levels of brightness are wider in order to fit min black and max white, set by brightness and contrast settings, so there are less possible colors to display.

OP seems to be very very uninformed

I'm open to refusals, even if I have this proven.
You wont get much out of a simple self-denial sentence like that.

 

[un1que]

Good post. Glad someone explains this right. For ages I’ve used hdr on my LG oled and while it looked amazing something wasn’t quite right. The colours.
I didn’t realise that hdr 4K goes to yuv due to hdmi limitions. As soon as I did I binned off hdr. For me accurate colours is more important and Full RGB does that.
Can’t wait to see hdmi 2.1 so we can get full uncompressed hdr images. Hope next gen consoles use it as well.

 

[zeomax]

I can promise you theres a difference. There's no way that limited reproduces the same colors than full.

It depends on how the media is mastered. And every media (games/movies etc.) for home entertainment is mastered, believe me or not, for limited colors space! The only exception is in the graphics design where you need the full control over your colors and this is not home entertainment, it is a PC environment.
If you set it to full then no you don't have more colors because for your TV everything below 16 is black and everything above 236 is white.

 

[Whitecrow]

It depends on how the media is mastered. And every media (games/movies etc.) for home entertainment is mastered, believe me or not, for limited colors space! The only exception is in the graphics design where you need the full control over your colors and this is not home entertainment, it is a PC environment.
If you set it to full then no you don't have more colors because for your TV everything below 16 is black and everything above 236 is white.

Then why would consoles even have full rgb option to start with?

If both games and movies uses limited, that makes no sense.

 

[drotahorror]

It depends on how the media is mastered. And every media (games/movies etc.) for home entertainment is mastered, believe me or not, for limited colors space! .

Do you have proof of video games only being developed with limited color space? I've read the opposite and I've read what you've said as well. I run videogames at full range, I have since the 360/ps3, since I use a monitor it's always been an option. The only console in recent memory that didn't offer full range RGB is the Wii U.

 

[zeomax]

Then why would consoles even have full rgb option to start with?

If both games and movies uses limited, that makes no sense.

If you want to use your console with a PC monitor then it probably need full range because PC monitor support often only full range and you can not change the monitor to limited. But, like with TVs, it depends on your monitor. It is not general true for every monitor.

 

[Whitecrow]

I'll try to take pictures when I get home. I'm sure then we all will be able to point out the differences.

If you want to use your console with a PC monitor then it probably need full range because PC monitor have often only full range and you can not change the monitor to limited.

Then you are making little to no sense here.

Whats the difference between a PC monitor at full rgb and a TV at full rgb?
And if games are mastered in limited and you play them on a full rgb monitor, the image gets washed out, because if the game sends a pure black (16 in limited), that gets gray on the full RGB display.

 

[Aintitcool]

Also worth noting. If you have an HDR TV and the game is HDR certified and your tv shows the HDR symbol when booting you are fine.

 

[base]

The washed out image is only happens if you set the color range wrong. If it is both full/full or limited/limited there is no difference. Well there could be a difference but it depends on your TV how it handle it. To say in general that full is always better is wrong. I tested it on my B7 OLED with a lot of games and there is absolutely no difference if everything is set properly. But my TV is hardware calibrated this could be a reason why there is no difference.

Have in mind that some manufacturers like Samsung are using different names for RGB Full / Limited.

 

[zeomax]

And if games are mastered in limited and you play them on a full rgb monitor, the image gets washed out, because if the game sends a pure black (16 in limited), that gets gray on the full RGB display.

That's why you set your console to RGB full. But you won't get more colors, the console shifts only the starting black point from 16 to 0. You have then simply 16 steps of pure black.

 

[Whitecrow]

That still doesnt make sense. You dont have a clear undesrtanding of color spaces.

Its not a matter of shifting the black starting point. I think you are a little bit confused.
Is a bout the different levels of brightness you can display. Full displays more than Limited.

If the console is set to full, black will be output as 0 and white will be output as 255, and you have 253 gradations in between.
If the console outputs to limited, even if the offset starts at 0 or at 16, you have 36 brightness gradations less.

But dont worry mate, I'll post some pictures later today when I get home to prove my words.

 

[zeomax]

If the console is set to full, black will be output as 0 and white will be output as 255, and you have 253 gradations in between.
If the console outputs to limited, even if the offset starts at 0 or at 16, you have 36 brightness gradations less.

Yes if the media is mastered at full range. But Movies and games are mastered for limited colors. That means you don't have less or more gradations because everything from 0 to 16 is pure black without any gradations. The same for white, everything above 236 is simply white.

 

[Whitecrow]

Yes if the media is mastered at full range. But Movies and games are mastered for limited colors. That means you don't have less gradations because everything from 0 to 16 is pure black without any gradations. The same for white, everything above 236 is simply white.

You may be right, but we need sources.

 

[zeomax]

I don't have any sources. It's simply because it is made for TV's and televisions shouldn't have the support for full range. It is simply a feature that the manufactures put in their TV sets but its not guaranteed that every TV has it. It's simple, if something is supposed to be watched on a TV it is mastered in limited. So basically every home media entertainment. And yes you can use your console on a monitor but in the first place a console is made for TV's and because you can use it with a monitor it has the setting to change from limited to full so you will have the correct colors even if you use it with a PC monitor.

This is the reason why the Wii U have support only for limited range. It is made for use on a TV in first place and not for PC monitors.

 

[Lightsbane]

Wait I'm confused, there are people using limited RGB on purpose? Why?
Isn't RGB limited just worse in every ways? It looks extremely washed out and there's less depth, so why using it? Because on TVs it's too dark? Isn't it better to juste usb full rgb and if it's too dark set the brightness / gamma higher?

This shouldn't be happening. If it looks washed out, you TV is improperly set up.

The signal needs to match, as in Limited with Limited or Full with Full. Otherwise you get what you're describing, or even worse, completely crushed blacks.

 

[Silent blades]

I put mine on auto is this bad? I have a 65 Sony 900F and I also have it on auto.

 

[zeomax]

I put mine on auto is this bad? I have a 65 Sony 900F and I also have it on auto.

Watch with the console browser the two videos. In the black video you shouldn't see any bars flashing below the 16. In the white video you shouldn't see any bars flashing above 235. If this is the case then your TV and console are correct. But to say this is a very bad method to test it.

black
white

 

[Armorian]

I don't belive that any games are made with limited color RGB, both PC and console games (since PS3 at least) are made with full color palette. Console software is handling limited-full shift.

Something might be off on Xbox consoles, since 360 people always had probles with full/limited setup and MS had some different gamma settings (than normal). PS3 always rendered full rgb picture correctly just like 7800GTX would have.

 

[zeomax]

I don't belive that any games are made with limited color RGB, both PC and console games (since PS3 at least) are made with full color palette. Console software is handling limited-full shift.

Something might be off on Xbox consoles, since 360 people always had probles with full/limited setup and MS had some different gamma settings (than normal). PS3 always rendered full rgb picture correctly just like 7800GTX would have.

The xbox 360 is rendering the picture at 10-bit but in the post processing it will be tuned down to 8-bit. That's why the 360 games on the Xbone have HDR support. Because the 360 emulator don't reduce the picture to 8-bit.

 

[enfieldvball]

How do you know if your set supports RGB full? I almost always set my sets to Limited because Full always seems to overshoot (over saturate, kill blacks, etc.), so you're saying you should set the console to Full and fuddle with brightness/contrast?

 

[zeomax]

You can set it to full but then you need to set your PS4/Xbox to full to. Your console and TV needs both the same settings.

Console full <--> TV full
or
Console limited <--> TV limited

For HDR you must use limited!!!

 

[Armorian]

On Samsung TV's it's pretty simple, you set HDMI black level (HBL):

With console outputing limited you set TV to LOW HBL
With console outputing full you set it to NORMAL HBL

With settings above you get correct color space with no crushing blacks or washed out picture, at least on PS3/4

You can assume that if you tv have HDMI black level settings it supports Full RGB.

Open this website on console, you should see all squares http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php

 

[Armorian]

The xbox 360 is rendering the picture at 10-bit but in the post processing it will be tuned down to 8-bit. That's why the 360 games on the Xbone have HDR support. Because the 360 emulator don't reduce the picture to 8-bit.

Interesting, so 360 was future proofed after all

Sorry for DP, it was supposed to be edit...

 

[base]

On Samsung TV's it's pretty simple, you set HDMI black level (HBL):

With console outputing limited you set TV to LOW HBL
With console outputing full you set it to NORMAL HBL

With settings above you get correct color space with no crushing blacks or washed out picture, at least on PS3/4

You can assume that if you tv have HDMI black level settings it supports Full RGB.

Open this website on console, you should see all squares http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php

Correct. The only problem is many manufacturers use different naming for Black Level.

 

[Silent blades]

Any clue what Sony uses maybe I’m looking at wrong setting. I have HDMI set to auto.

 

[dolabla]

I always set my game consoles to RGB Full (if it supports it). The Wii U only supports limited. I have two Sony TV's and they have "Automatic" setting to detect the RGB value. You can also change it manually to "Full" or "Limited".

Sometimes the "Automatic" setting doesn't work correctly cause of the device. I have one device where it does not work correctly, the RetroUSB AVS. It outputs a Full signal, but I have to set it manually on the tv to receive that signal. If I have it set to "Automatic" it's just a Limited signal and the picture looks awful with blown out colors and crushed blacks.