Whitecrow
Banned
Almost final conclusion after further testing:
First, and most important, debunking the myth:
On TVs, HDMI Black Level is not an option to make the TV support a Full RGB input.
So what does the the HDMI black level option?
The HDMI black level option is an ENHACEMENT that may be applied to a LIMITED rgb signal in order to bring the blacks down to the lowest the TV can output without decreasing the brightness.
Low = ON = Make the limited signal as black as possible maintaining highest brightnes and obtaining highest contrast. Recommended.
Normal = OFF = No enhacement, doesnt care about the signal. Output as it comes.
And that's it.
And for the Limited VS Full output, I stand by Full can display more detail. It's only logical. I'm sure of it.
I'll try to find a way to show it. I'll then update this thread again with whatever results I come with.
**********************************************
Note: This applies to gaming, not BD/DVD playback. For video there's no debate, it's limited always.
Well, I finally got to a conclusion of this debate.
After a wiide research and some trial and error, I can finally say what is best and why.
And the winner is........
******* RGB Full ********* (Congrats!)
First, what is this debate about?
As we 'all' know, current gen consoles come with the option to output video in those two RGB formats, Limited or Full. While in full, reference black is set at 0, and reference white at 255 color levels, in limited RGB, black is 16 and white is 235.
If you ask google about what you should use for better colors, the first conclusion one could draw is that Full are the so called 'PC levels', and Limited 'video levels', and that consoles connected to TVs should use limited, because TVs are designed for video, not PC.
Most of articles recommend limited EVEN IF THE TV SUPPORTS FULL because... well, they dont know what they are talking about:
This one at hand:
https://www.howtogeek.com/295569/should-i-use-rgb-limited-or-rgb-full-on-my-playstation-or-xbox/
Tells you to use limited for games because you will lose details in movies = )
And this one,
https://referencehometheater.com/2014/commentary/rgb-full-vs-limited/
got from there ( https://www.neogaf.com/threads/ques...-limited-on-consoles-connected-to-tv.1276734/ )
Tells you not to use full because... brightness settings ended its existence and then blacks get crushed without remedy.
And that's precisely why I went limited on my TV (that supports full RGB)... until today.
That's one concern. The other one is that people seem to acknowledge that Limited and Full outputs the same, you just need to match the console output range with the TV input range, but at the end you get the same display, because TV changes the gamma curve and blah blah
So yeah, not quite.
Limited can perfectly stand for compressed RGB. (It's what it is actually)
Doesnt matter if matching console and TV avoids black crush and white clipping, YOU ACTUALLY LOSE BRIGHTNESS STEPS.
To be specific, you lose 16 + 20 (255- 235) = 36 steps, wich is actually huge, and it translates in a significant lose of detail and bland picture.
If you want to try, use this (you can acces via console browser too)
http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php
If you put everything on RGB full and you got crushed blacks, crank your brightness up until the TV can display the 1 black square differently from the pure black background.
Notice that this brightness calibration test only works if the brightness settings of the display act as a black level offset for the colors (TVs), and not panel luminance, like cheap PC monitors like mine does.
In lagom page, you can also use the contrast and white level pages to see if you have too much contrast or your whites are clipping.
And to conclude, I wanna answer another question that arises from all of this, and that is:
'Are games designed for limited or full rgb?'
And the answer is: Games are designed for RGB. Just RGB. And full is better than compressed.
Limited only exists to map reference white and reference black to a TV that only supports limited and BD/DVD playback, as they are mastered in Limited.
So, if you know for sure your TV supports Full RGB, go for it!!
First, and most important, debunking the myth:
On TVs, HDMI Black Level is not an option to make the TV support a Full RGB input.
So what does the the HDMI black level option?
The HDMI black level option is an ENHACEMENT that may be applied to a LIMITED rgb signal in order to bring the blacks down to the lowest the TV can output without decreasing the brightness.
Low = ON = Make the limited signal as black as possible maintaining highest brightnes and obtaining highest contrast. Recommended.
Normal = OFF = No enhacement, doesnt care about the signal. Output as it comes.
And that's it.
And for the Limited VS Full output, I stand by Full can display more detail. It's only logical. I'm sure of it.
I'll try to find a way to show it. I'll then update this thread again with whatever results I come with.
**********************************************
Note: This applies to gaming, not BD/DVD playback. For video there's no debate, it's limited always.
Well, I finally got to a conclusion of this debate.
After a wiide research and some trial and error, I can finally say what is best and why.
And the winner is........
******* RGB Full ********* (Congrats!)
First, what is this debate about?
As we 'all' know, current gen consoles come with the option to output video in those two RGB formats, Limited or Full. While in full, reference black is set at 0, and reference white at 255 color levels, in limited RGB, black is 16 and white is 235.
If you ask google about what you should use for better colors, the first conclusion one could draw is that Full are the so called 'PC levels', and Limited 'video levels', and that consoles connected to TVs should use limited, because TVs are designed for video, not PC.
Most of articles recommend limited EVEN IF THE TV SUPPORTS FULL because... well, they dont know what they are talking about:
This one at hand:
https://www.howtogeek.com/295569/should-i-use-rgb-limited-or-rgb-full-on-my-playstation-or-xbox/
Tells you to use limited for games because you will lose details in movies = )
And this one,
https://referencehometheater.com/2014/commentary/rgb-full-vs-limited/
got from there ( https://www.neogaf.com/threads/ques...-limited-on-consoles-connected-to-tv.1276734/ )
Tells you not to use full because... brightness settings ended its existence and then blacks get crushed without remedy.
And that's precisely why I went limited on my TV (that supports full RGB)... until today.
That's one concern. The other one is that people seem to acknowledge that Limited and Full outputs the same, you just need to match the console output range with the TV input range, but at the end you get the same display, because TV changes the gamma curve and blah blah
So yeah, not quite.
Limited can perfectly stand for compressed RGB. (It's what it is actually)
Doesnt matter if matching console and TV avoids black crush and white clipping, YOU ACTUALLY LOSE BRIGHTNESS STEPS.
To be specific, you lose 16 + 20 (255- 235) = 36 steps, wich is actually huge, and it translates in a significant lose of detail and bland picture.
If you want to try, use this (you can acces via console browser too)
http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php
If you put everything on RGB full and you got crushed blacks, crank your brightness up until the TV can display the 1 black square differently from the pure black background.
Notice that this brightness calibration test only works if the brightness settings of the display act as a black level offset for the colors (TVs), and not panel luminance, like cheap PC monitors like mine does.
In lagom page, you can also use the contrast and white level pages to see if you have too much contrast or your whites are clipping.
And to conclude, I wanna answer another question that arises from all of this, and that is:
'Are games designed for limited or full rgb?'
And the answer is: Games are designed for RGB. Just RGB. And full is better than compressed.
Limited only exists to map reference white and reference black to a TV that only supports limited and BD/DVD playback, as they are mastered in Limited.
So, if you know for sure your TV supports Full RGB, go for it!!
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