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Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines 2 officially announced

Dec 3, 2018
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I know some of you still carry a bias or criticisms against transgender people, but it saddens me to see that. Please don't paint all of us with the same preconceptions.
This isn't really the thread to have this discussion, but man, NeoGAF is obsessed with transgendered people. I mean, I get it. It is kind of the forefront of the progressive movement's attack, and one in which there is far less agreement among the general populace - it's one of the few places where they've pushed and people started to push back - but I just think it would be nice if we could criticize the progressive movement and its dogma without it turning into a criticism of transgendered people.

But Ailynn, I know how hard it is, but try not to take this stuff personally. Regardless of whether someone thinks transgenderism is a mental illness or not, it is not a criticism of you as a person nor does it matter one way or another to the reality of the life you must live.

What's really important here is that they announced Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines 2 and then immediately went full social justice dogmatic in every interview and tweet - something which should be diametrically opposed to the kind of experience Bloodlines should be striving for in order to be a worthy sequel (in my opinion).
 

Shai-Tan

Member
Mar 16, 2009
5,695
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The developers were responding to questions that get spun in the media one way or the other. NeoGAF is obsessed about it because some members get triggered by ideological dissonance that then turns into rumination and catastrophizing about "sjws" that goes far beyond the limited evidence motivating those concerns.
 
Dec 3, 2018
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The developers were responding to questions that get spun in the media one way or the other. NeoGAF is obsessed about it because some members get triggered by ideological dissonance that then turns into rumination and catastrophizing about "sjws" that goes far beyond the limited evidence motivating those concerns.
Triggering specifically means something which causes a post traumatic stress episode - something which has been adopted by the progressive movement to pretend that every little slight is bad because of psychological trauma (such as the kind felt by war veterans and rape victims). They use trigger warnings to warn in advance that something ideologically offensive is coming up, and that’s why people make fun of them. They are diminishing real trauma in favor of their own made up trauma. It’s not the word triggering, but what their use of the idea of triggering means.

We don’t get triggered. We get upset. We aren’t pretending that Bloodlines 2 is traumatizing us, nor would we dream of comparing our disgust with trauma. It’s just that the developers sound like idiots. Calling our offense “triggering” is only further undermining the way that progressives have abused the concept of triggering for years! I hate the way you try to deflect your own side’s failings as if we were even remotely guilty of the same thing. Ideological dissonance? Triggering? Catastrophizing? Ha! You’ve seen us accuse you of these things, but you obviously never learned what they mean.

... Seriously, catastrophizing? The social justice movement destroyed Star Wars in a single movie - a feat that I didn’t even think was humanly possible. This isn’t catastrophizing when we’ve got DOZENS of examples of social justice taking something good from the past and ruining it. It’s like the purposely mine the past for problematic content just so they can erase it with a more ministry approved version. This isn’t catastrophizing. It’s pattern matching.
 

Shai-Tan

Member
Mar 16, 2009
5,695
372
870
There are a lot of reasons the new Star Wars series is bad that have little to do with political ideology. But ok "pattern matching". And it's silly saying it single handedly ruined Star Wars when the prequel trilogy exists.
 

FireFly

Member
Aug 5, 2007
501
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Yeah, but can't expect for everyone else to adhere to their own rules.

I mean, I'm always gonna call people with their pronoun of choice, but that's me doing you a courtesy, not something you should expect and demand or something to rage upon if for some reason I use what they consider to be the "wrong" pronoun.
To me it's exactly like asking to be called by your given name. You don't have a right to demand this, and generally it is fine if someone calls you the wrong name by mistake. But if someone persistantly chooses to call you by the wrong name, knowing it will annoy or upset you, then it generally isn't considered socially acceptable.

There is a pretty big space that exists between what we can demand as a matter of right, and how we should be treated by others if they respect our dignity.
 

Kadayi

GIF PIMP
Oct 10, 2012
8,025
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theconclave.net
There are a lot of reasons the new Star Wars series is bad that have little to do with political ideology. But ok "pattern matching". And it's silly saying it single-handedly ruined Star Wars when the prequel trilogy exists.
The prequels weren't great, but they didn't ruin the original trilogy in the process. Between them, Abrams and Johnson managed to undo everything the original heroes achieved, All I'm expecting Abrams to do in the final film is woodchip the remains.: -


 
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plushyp

Member
Jul 21, 2016
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There are a lot of reasons the new Star Wars series is bad that have little to do with political ideology. But ok "pattern matching". And it's silly saying it single handedly ruined Star Wars when the prequel trilogy exists.
Lol, that video overanalyses that turd of a film giving it waaay more credit than it's worth. The main reason behind TLJ being as horrendous as it was is Rian Johnson and his terribad writing with so-called "trope subversion".

/end of thread derail
 
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Dec 3, 2018
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There are a lot of reasons the new Star Wars series is bad that have little to do with political ideology. But ok "pattern matching". And it's silly saying it single handedly ruined Star Wars when the prequel trilogy exists.
You can't destroy one the most dedicated fanbases in the world, running hot for FORTY years, with a single bad movie (there's stuff far worse than The Last Jedi in the book series). You can do it easily, however, by calling all your fans misogynists and saying that Star Wars wasn't for them anymore.
 

ZehDon

Member
Jun 13, 2013
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I wonder if they will use the classic ruleset or the updated one that was released last year...
In the release keynote, I believe they state that they'll be using the 5th edition. They also described how the 5th edition was created in parallel with Bloodlines 2, so that what felt good in the game informed the rule set, and then of course rule set obviously informed the game.
 

Acerac

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May 20, 2007
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It's disappointing to me that you would say this, as well as always speak so critically about transgender people in general. I'm sure you know people used to say the same things about people who are gay. Is being gay a mental illness? Of course there are those who are gay who suffer mental illness, but it is not inherently so.

Sometimes physical sexual difference occurs prenatally. This is something that happens in parts of the body we cannot see, such as the brain...as well as more visible parts of the body.


I know some of you still carry a bias or criticisms against transgender people, but it saddens me to see that. Please don't paint all of us with the same preconceptions.
Is the recommended treatment for being gay typically to medicate the patient with a litany of drugs that leaves them looking nothing like the person they once were? (Only in Iran til recently, but America is starting to adopt that for it's youngins...) This is no criticism against individuals to state that if their is a disconnect between mind and body that is so severe that it requires treatment then this is a very real mental condition. I feel it does those who are dealing with it a disservice to claim that it isn't, as that minimizes the need to treat such a serious condition.

If you or anyone else wanted to argue that being gay is a mental illness, I would be in no way offended. Part of my growth over the last year is being able to deal with the opinions of others even if I strongly disagree with them. People expressing their opinions are not harming me, and when voices are silenced important opinions are not spoken for. I can not express strongly enough how much I appreciate the emotional aspect of such subjects, but I have found that letting myself be steered by such thoughts just led to disaster.

Sometimes opinions hurt. That does not mean they are wrong or need to be shushed, that path only leads to ResetERA. I've only come to the conclusions I have because I have been willing to question even my most core beliefs and have come out the other side stronger and happier than I have ever been before. I am open to learning that my current thought processes are false, it has even happened on these boards within the last couple months. It will not be happening as a subject of emotional appeals, however.

fwiw I have tons of mental illnesses please don't think I'm using that as a pejorative. I ain't criticizing individuals, if anything I feel most of the people in the community have been taken advantage of and it makes me more upset than I would like to admit. I just feel that proper classification and care for such difficult conditions are the best way to help anyone who has them.

*edit*

I ain't being sarcastic btw, nothing would thrill me more than they let people pick their pronouns and others around you acknowledge what you say but reference your looks as well. Needing to win the respect of the (literally) bloodthirsty armies of the night to respect you by choice or by force could lead to some extremely unique situations and expose players foreign to the very concept to some scenarios they may have never discovered.
 
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Ailynn

Faith - Hope - Love
Jan 1, 2017
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East Tennessee, USA
Is the recommended treatment for being gay typically to medicate the patient with a litany of drugs that leaves them looking nothing like the person they once were? (Only in Iran til recently, but America is starting to adopt that for it's youngins...) This is no criticism against individuals to state that if their is a disconnect between mind and body that is so severe that it requires treatment then this is a very real mental condition. I feel it does those who are dealing with it a disservice to claim that it isn't, as that minimizes the need to treat such a serious condition.

If you or anyone else wanted to argue that being gay is a mental illness, I would be in no way offended. Part of my growth over the last year is being able to deal with the opinions of others even if I strongly disagree with them. People expressing their opinions are not harming me, and when voices are silenced important opinions are not spoken for. I can not express strongly enough how much I appreciate the emotional aspect of such subjects, but I have found that letting myself be steered by such thoughts just led to disaster.

Sometimes opinions hurt. That does not mean they are wrong or need to be shushed, that path only leads to ResetERA. I've only come to the conclusions I have because I have been willing to question even my most core beliefs and have come out the other side stronger and happier than I have ever been before. I am open to learning that my current thought processes are false, it has even happened on these boards within the last couple months. It will not be happening as a subject of emotional appeals, however.

fwiw I have tons of mental illnesses please don't think I'm using that as a pejorative. I ain't criticizing individuals, if anything I feel most of the people in the community have been taken advantage of and it makes me more upset than I would like to admit. I just feel that proper classification and care for such difficult conditions are the best way to help anyone who has them.

*edit*

I ain't being sarcastic btw, nothing would thrill me more than they let people pick their pronouns and others around you acknowledge what you say but reference your looks as well. Needing to win the respect of the (literally) bloodthirsty armies of the night to respect you by choice or by force could lead to some extremely unique situations and expose players foreign to the very concept to some scenarios they may have never discovered.
I appreciate the followup, and I hope I didn't come off as having an angry tone in my previous post. There is no anger therein...just fatigue, you could say.

Although you aren't using 'mental illness' as a pejorative, there is a horde of others online who do so every day...and it just gets exhausting. Many of those people have no intention of listening to my family medical history or how a small percentage of the world are born with prenatal sexual differentiation. Nope...if I am forthright about being transgender, then I am immediately thought to be batshit insane. :messenger_pensive:

It's just very tiresome seeing the same thoughtless insults over and over again. It's like seeing people say things like "All white people are racist"...."All men are misogynistic rapists"....or "All Democrats are murdering babies."
.
.
.

I thankfully have gotten a thicker skin over the past four years, but I know I still have further to go. I've had a pretty stressful week, so I apologize for letting it get to me more than it normally would.



This isn't really the thread to have this discussion, but man, NeoGAF is obsessed with transgendered people. I mean, I get it. It is kind of the forefront of the progressive movement's attack, and one in which there is far less agreement among the general populace - it's one of the few places where they've pushed and people started to push back - but I just think it would be nice if we could criticize the progressive movement and its dogma without it turning into a criticism of transgendered people.

But Ailynn, I know how hard it is, but try not to take this stuff personally. Regardless of whether someone thinks transgenderism is a mental illness or not, it is not a criticism of you as a person nor does it matter one way or another to the reality of the life you must live.

What's really important here is that they announced Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines 2 and then immediately went full social justice dogmatic in every interview and tweet - something which should be diametrically opposed to the kind of experience Bloodlines should be striving for in order to be a worthy sequel (in my opinion).
Thank you for this. As I mentioned above, this week has been pretty stressful in what has already been a fairly difficult last 15 months...and I let things get to me too much.

The thing is....my account here began immediately after the great "exodus" in October 2017. I had just been laid off of a job I loved in human resources for reasons beyond my control...basically, our group was rejoining the main building where the owners were...and they are very up in age and extremely "old-fashioned" when it came to anyone who was LGBT+. Basically, even though all my coworkers loved me and I was very well-supported, I was still unofficially let go because of my gender transition. My confidence I had previously gained took a huge dive after being unable to obtain a job for 8 months even after several great interviews, and I had begun suffering through several health issues at the same time. All the while, a person close to me that I had thought was my friend actually turned out to be the polar opposite...

To paraphrase...2018 was a rough year. However, something unexpected happened.

When I created this NeoGaf account, I admit I was hesitant. I had seen some offensive things being said about transgender people, and I thought I would be unwelcome here. I fully expected I would be quickly banned, but I felt I should share my story in an effort to show that trans people are not all like the fiercely angry outspoken ones that the old 'Gaf had become known for.

Instead of people just mocking my pain and what I had shared, people here were extraordinarily kind to me. I received many incredibly sweet messages of support and asking me to stay. Even though I didn't post very often, I still managed to make actual friends here. My confidence started growing again...and I owe a lot of that to NeoGaf.

So, that's what I need to remember. Just as in normal everyday life, some people are going to say things that are hurtful...but just because their words may be hurtful, it doesn't mean they meant it that way. Well-meaning words can be hurtful, but still said with love.

.
.
.

Sorry...I'm not sure where I was going with this...but just, thanks.
Thanks, everyone. :messenger_heart:

(I'm feeling better now.)
 
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Ivellios

Member
Mar 26, 2015
1,525
936
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Brazil
I appreciate the followup, and I hope I didn't come off as having an angry tone in my previous post. There is no anger therein...just fatigue, you could say.

Although you aren't using 'mental illness' as a pejorative, there is a horde of others online who do so every day...and it just gets exhausting. Many of those people have no intention of listening to my family medical history or how a small percentage of the world are born with prenatal sexual differentiation. Nope...if I am forthright about being transgender, then I am immediately thought to be batshit insane. :messenger_pensive:

It's just very tiresome seeing the same thoughtless insults over and over again. It's like seeing people say things like "All white people are racist"...."All men are misogynistic rapists"....or "All Democrats are murdering babies."
.
.
.

I thankfully have gotten a thicker skin over the past four years, but I know I still have further to go. I've had a pretty stressful week, so I apologize for letting it get to me more than it normally would.





Thank you for this. As I mentioned above, this week has been pretty stressful in what has already been a fairly difficult last 15 months...and I let things get to me too much.

The thing is....my account here began immediately after the great "exodus" in October 2017. I had just been laid off of a job I loved in human resources for reasons beyond my control...basically, our group was rejoining the main building where the owners were...and they are very up and age and extremely "old-fashioned" when it came to anyone who was LGBT+. Basically, even though all my coworkers loved me and I was very well-supported, I was still unofficially let go because of my gender transition. My confidence I had previously gained took a huge dive after being unable to obtain a job for 8 months even after several great interviews, and I had begun suffering through several health issues and other at the same time. All the while, a person close to me that I had thought was my friend actually turned out to be the polar opposite...

To paraphrase...2018 was a rough year. However, something unexpected happened.

When I created this NeoGaf account, I admit I was hesitant. I had seen some offensive things being said about transgender people, and I thought I would be unwelcome here. I fully expected I would be quickly banned, but I felt I should share my story in an effort to show that trans people are not all like the fiercely angry outspoken ones that the old 'Gaf had become known for.

Instead of people just mocking my pain and what I had shared, people here were extraordinarily kind to me. I received many incredibly sweet messages of support and asking me to stay. Even though I didn't post very often, I still managed to make actual friends here. My confidence started growing again...and I owe a lot of that to NeoGaf.

So, that's what I need to remember. Just as in normal everyday life, some people are going to say things that are hurtful...but just because their words may be hurtful, it doesn't mean they meant it that way. Well-meaning words can be hurtful, but still said with love.

.
.
.

Sorry...I'm not sure where I was going with this...but just, thanks.
Thanks, everyone. :messenger_heart:

(I'm feeling better now.)
This is a really nice post, glad youre feeling better and hope you have a great 2019.
 

angelic

Member
Apr 18, 2013
3,493
3,766
825
I'll just clarify, I've no hate for transgender folks. I think theyre very brave. It's only the militant raging idiots i hate, a stance i also have with dumb straight people.
 

Acerac

Banned
May 20, 2007
10,231
582
1,225
I appreciate the followup, and I hope I didn't come off as having an angry tone in my previous post. There is no anger therein...just fatigue, you could say.

Although you aren't using 'mental illness' as a pejorative, there is a horde of others online who do so every day...and it just gets exhausting. Many of those people have no intention of listening to my family medical history or how a small percentage of the world are born with prenatal sexual differentiation. Nope...if I am forthright about being transgender, then I am immediately thought to be batshit insane. :messenger_pensive:

It's just very tiresome seeing the same thoughtless insults over and over again. It's like seeing people say things like "All white people are racist"...."All men are misogynistic rapists"....or "All Democrats are murdering babies."
.
.
.

I thankfully have gotten a thicker skin over the past four years, but I know I still have further to go. I've had a pretty stressful week, so I apologize for letting it get to me more than it normally would.
I can only imagine how exhausting it could be mentally, especially given it is impossible to know the true intent behind the words. The stigma behind mental illnesses is shocking, especially given how common they are in modern society. Hell, more than anything I am trying to normalize the damned things because at a certain point it feels like the majority of adults have at least one mental illness if not a handful of them.

As far as acquiring thicker skin... it is difficult, but I have found that only by exposing myself to many debates I dislike even the concept of (there are a LOT of dumb theories online) have I been able to center myself in the direction I need to work in to better myself. I will not pretend it is the best method for everyone, but learning why people feel the way they do when they disagree with me was key in reminding me why I thought the way I did in the first place, and why that was valid or needed to evolve.
 
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Acerac

Banned
May 20, 2007
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I genuinely want to know how the game will treat the player character in the context of this info.

The problem becomes that I would not expect some of these houses to be initially respectful in the matter of gender identity issues. Now, while there may be some catharsis when it comes to attacking these people, I am not sure anyone would want to be put in the initial situation and I do not know that violence is the proper response to hatred, and while the previous game was wonderful about letting you talk your way through things, I feel that is not the default way players approach games these days.

I would not be shocked if every NPC is respectful of the issue, though that would feel a bit strange given the universe it is set in.
 

sol_bad

Member
Jan 17, 2006
2,902
1,434
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Absolutely, for PC this is the way to go, let people buy games on the store they prefer, you still get the money, even more money when you don't shut some PC platforms out......I think Metro devs are already regretting that decision.....The crazy thing is, sometimes I buy a PC game across multiple platforms, like the first bloodlines, I have it on GOG and on steam, DRM free is pretty swell on GOG and is incentive enough for me in most cases..........I have even considered getting Witcher GOTY on Steam many times (since have it on GOG), only because I have the other two games on steam, so there's that.....

In any case, looks like the bloodline devs are making all the right decisions here....Kudos to them, that they are allowing good sense to prevail....
You can even buy it on Paradox's website.
For the people that hate Steam and are Pro Epic, I hope they are actually buying the game from Paradox's website so that they get the full revenue and Epic/Valve,GoG get none of it.

I disagree entirely with this. The world of V:TM is extremely sexualised, with seduction literally being a character trait, and a legitimate path through the first game. Offering players options in games, rather than forcing one perspective, is the correct way to do inclusiveness. Offering someone the option to swap gender pro-nouns to better enable their own personal investment in their sexualised fantasy role playing game is not "stupid as fuck". I think it's actually pretty cool.
I'm not fully up to date on the thread but every human on this planet is born as a male or a female. You could say that this is what the game is asking, what you were born as. Then just let your actions define who you are within the game and it's world.
 
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Dunki

Member
Oct 24, 2017
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Honestly I could care less about the pronoun option. If you want to use it fine. The problem I generally have with this is that they were saying that they will make clear whats right and wrong on issues they care about. Politics etc should not be so black and white like they describe it. RPGs should NEVER be black and white.

Also as for these issues. If this is set in a realistic city then everyone should not be fine with it. There should be conflicts and they should address this. It should not be the rainbow like world where everyone is ok with this. Where you actually should have troubles etc. Basically it should not be Mass Effect or Dragon Age.
 
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Chunk Loves Sloth

Gold Member
Nov 5, 2016
12,148
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I don't care where (just far)
Honestly I could care less about the pronoun option. If you want to use it fine. The problem I generally have with this is that they were saying that they will make clear whats right and wrong on issues they care about. Politics etc should not be so black and white like they describe it. RPGs should NEVER be black and white.

Also as for these issues. If this is set in a realistic city then everyone should not be fine with it. There should be conflicts and they should address this. It should not be the rainbow like world where everyone is ok with this. Where you actually should have troubles etc. Basically it should not be Mass Effect or Dragon Age.
Once again we have a prime example of something I always point out in these type of threads

The classic "I don't care, but here let me tell you how I care" post.

Let's just be honest, you do care, and that's ok! It is OK to care, it is OK to not care, lets drop the false pretenses.
 

Dunki

Member
Oct 24, 2017
7,525
7,441
715
Once again we have a prime example of something I always point out in these type of threads

The classic "I don't care, but here let me tell you how I care" post.

Let's just be honest, you do care, and that's ok! It is OK to care, it is OK to not care, lets drop the false pretenses.
I do not care about the pronoun option. I care about the statement they said.
 
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gioGAF

Member
Jun 14, 2011
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Super excited at first, but after reading more about the team and what has gone on with Paradox, I am just going to wait for release and see what we get (still hoping for the best). There is also no way this is coming out when they are saying, I would expect some sort of delay at minimum.
 

overlordror

Neo Member
Jul 1, 2014
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nintygamer.com
After reading what has been revealed so far from people who have played it, it doesn't sound like it's the successor everyone has been waiting for. I'll wait and reserve my judgements until I've played it, but the only game that has come remotely close to capturing the same magic in story-telling has been Fallout: New Vegas.
 

Drake

Member
Oct 16, 2012
1,410
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630
I've actually owned the first game on GOG for a while, but never played it. Started playing it after this announcement. I've got to say the game is pretty awesome and not super difficult. It provides much needed relief when I get frustrated with Sekiro.
 

xrnzaaas

Member
Dec 9, 2013
7,995
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510
25-30 hours is a perfect length for me. Vampyr had similar length and I was happy even though there were no different clans to choose from in that game.
 
Jan 9, 2018
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From one of the articles:

It’s not just politics where Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 takes a progressive approach. The character creator, which players get to use twice – once at the start to define your human aspects and then a second time later in the game to flesh out your vampire – goes way beyond basic male and female models. Body type, gender pronouns, employment history and fashion can all be toyed with for a very modular build.

“We’re interested in providing a very robust roleplaying experience for the player with something were they can really identify with their character by fine tuning and providing lots of options for them to do that,” says Rachel Leiker, UX/UI designer at Hardsuit Labs.

“In the first game you start out by picking the clan. With Bloodlines 2 because you’re starting as a ‘thin blood’ we give you some backgrounds to what your human self was before being embraced. They don’t so much have a direct influence on gameplay, there are a few minor influences like dialogue options, but we were really interested in following the progression and having the roleplay experience for the player to get a handle on that side of the game before they get a handle on the political clan-oriented side of it. The gamplay becomes very different later in the game [because you’ve chosen a clan]. You grow into it and consciously choose your clan after you’ve explored them. So it’s an informed decision.”
Everything in that quote is trash, but particularly the last paragraph. I didn't read the game world of the original as being focused on choice & "consent"... initially becoming a vampire sure as hell isn't consent, and being thrust into a clan without fully understanding your situation up front was the whole appeal. The idea of selecting a clan late in the game through informed, careful consent to match your preferences (add to the mix: corny pronoun preferences and other nonsense) just sounds like a weak & trendy social club, rather than an interesting game world structured by deeper allegiances and conflicts.
 

FireFly

Member
Aug 5, 2007
501
114
1,025
From one of the articles:
Everything in that quote is trash, but particularly the last paragraph. I didn't read the game world of the original as being focused on choice & "consent"... initially becoming a vampire sure as hell isn't consent, and being thrust into a clan without fully understanding your situation up front was the whole appeal. The idea of selecting a clan late in the game through informed, careful consent to match your preferences (add to the mix: corny pronoun preferences and other nonsense) just sounds like a weak & trendy social club, rather than an interesting game world structured by deeper allegiances and conflicts.
Who says that you make the choice late in the game? In the stream they say that the thin blood phase is part of the introduction and is merely a "warm up period". Given this, when you make the clan choice you will still likely have only limited information – and if the game is well made – this will result in interesting and unforeseen consequences later down the line.

In my mind this presents more opportunity to challenge the player than making them choose with almost no information at all, as in the original. For then you can at least feel some responsibility and ownership for what you've chosen to be, rather than it being almost the result of a dice roll.
 

KiteGr

Member
Apr 27, 2011
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Greece
From one of the articles:
...
Everything in that quote is trash, but particularly the last paragraph. I didn't read the game world of the original as being focused on choice & "consent"... initially becoming a vampire sure as hell isn't consent, and being thrust into a clan without fully understanding your situation up front was the whole appeal. The idea of selecting a clan late in the game through informed, careful consent to match your preferences (add to the mix: corny pronoun preferences and other nonsense) just sounds like a weak & trendy social club, rather than an interesting game world structured by deeper allegiances and conflicts.
That's One way to kill the Hype.

What's next?
  • All women being covered up in winter clothes and burkas?
  • Microtransactions and impossible grinding?
  • Mandatory online mode?
  • A game of the year edition with nothing but Vouchers?
  • Blood painted green?

The possibilities are endless!