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PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread

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Christ people. If you disagree with AlteredBeast than just PM him information like I did...

Also the part about the senate being to represent the little guy is kind of dumb. I mean with few exceptions most of the time it is the small states that fuck up the decisions in the country.
 

Atilac

Member
Madison specifically mentions class and the need to protect the wealthy from the masses. Yes, this is a fear about "popular representation," but because of the threat it represents to the landed gentry:



http://books.google.com/books?id=nF...y of the opulent&pg=PA450#v=onepage&q&f=false

(Also, keep in mind that the founders did not fear the legislative branch nearly as much as the executive branch--King George. They very intentionally created a very powerful Congress and a weak, albeit not impotent, president.)

You couldn't be more wrong, the founders original protagonist was Parliament, they pleaded for the king to step in and deliver relief and justice. The founders turned on the king when it became apparent he wouldn't interfere, Jefferson's declaration was intended to do that as was the writings of Thomas Paine.

On to the founders views of the legislative branch I would direct you to federalist paper 48
"The legislative department is everywhere extending the sphere of its activity, and drawing all power into its impetuous vortex." - James Madison.

You're placing your feelings and cynical views into the mindset of the founders, the purpose of the senate is to muzzle tyranny and prevent monistic thought, it wasn't created merely to protect the landed wealthy interests.

If your interested in Madison's views of the senate, read federalist paper 62.
 
I remember hearing a senator discussing the role of the senate on some NPR show a while back and the way he described it made a good amount of sense. The senate is there to resist change to stall ideas that might be popular but aren't yet well founded or researched. Ultimately, though, a popular idea that gains enough momentum where even the most resistant senator won't risk turning it down will make it through.

It's a great ideal to strive for but I don't think anyone believes that the senate behaves that way in reality.
 

Atilac

Member
Which shouldn't be mistaken for an argument that it is good. (Also, the founders intended the Senate to be a simple majoritarian institution, not one requiring super majorities, so if we're equating intentions to goodness....)

No, the senate is meant to be more deliberative and to prevent the aspirations of the momentary majority.
George Washington referred to it as "the saucer to cool the houses tea".
 
I've seen this going around Facebook
1GyMl.jpg


Is that actually a real quote? Where did it come from?

Because it's hilarious.

No, it's not an actual quote. It was someone paraphrasing a stump speech he gave.
 
You couldn't be more wrong, the founders original protagonist was Parliament, they pleaded for the king to step in and deliver relief and justice. The founders turned on the king when it became apparent he wouldn't interfere, Jefferson's declaration was intended to do that as was the writings of Thomas Paine.

On to the founders views of the legislative branch I would direct you to federalist paper 48
"The legislative department is everywhere extending the sphere of its activity, and drawing all power into its impetuous vortex." - James Madison.

You're placing your feelings and cynical views into the mindset of the founders, the purpose of the senate is to muzzle tyranny and prevent monistic thought, it wasn't created merely to protect the landed wealthy interests.

If your interested in Madison's views of the senate, read federalist paper 62.
Whose tyranny?

No, the senate is meant to be more deliberative and to prevent the aspirations of the momentary majority.
George Washington referred to it as "the saucer to cool the houses tea".
...that's not a response to what he said at all. That a supermajority is required to advance most legislation is fairly recent phenomenon, and it is certainly not how the founders intended the Senate to function. Not that I really care all that much what they intended, frankly.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
Must Read:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...iled-account-from-showdown-by-david-corn.html

Romney's response today was he would have said Yes to the mission to, that even Jimmy Carter would have said yes.

Thanks for the link, that was a great read. Great insight into Obama's methodical deliberation process.

his is one of those issues where Romeny's previous position was absolutely crystal clear - he reamed Obama for saying he'd go into Pakistan if they thought Osama was there. He's done a clean reversal, even more so than on the auto bailout. He's running such a sad campaign; a better man would give the president credit for the call and the success and then argue he's have done the same, rather than try to minimize it. It's all just so petty.
No, the senate is meant to be more deliberative and to prevent the aspirations of the momentary majority.
George Washington referred to it as "the saucer to cool the houses tea".

The filibuster was not part of the Senate design. It emerged much later, as part of an (accidental) consequence of updating Senate rules. Rules that can be further updated to remove it once again.
 

Tim-E

Member
Thanks for the link, that was a great read. Great insight into Obama's methodical deliberation process.

This is one of those issues where Romeny's previous position was absolutely crystal clear - he reamed Obama for saying he'd go into Pakistan if they thought Obama was there. He's done a clean reversal, even more so than on the auto bailout. He's running such a sad campaign; a better man would give the president credit for the call and the success and then argue he's have done the same, rather than try to minimize it. It's all just so petty.

I seriously doubt anyone would care if Romney would just give the president credit and have that be the end of it. Instead he has to attempt to pick another losing battle with Obama for the sole purpose of being against him.
 
Thanks for the link, that was a great read. Great insight into Obama's methodical deliberation process.

This is one of those issues where Romeny's previous position was absolutely crystal clear - he reamed Obama for saying he'd go into Pakistan if they thought Obama was there. He's done a clean reversal, even more so than on the auto bailout. He's running such a sad campaign; a better man would give the president credit for the call and the success and then argue he's have done the same, rather than try to minimize it. It's all just so petty.

Come on Man...lol

Actually, I believe there is a video of Romney repeatedly calling Osama Obama out there. And...

enhanced-buzz-2563-1334934175-7.jpg


Actually that sign's pretty catchy
 
You couldn't be more wrong, the founders original protagonist was Parliament, they pleaded for the king to step in and deliver relief and justice. The founders turned on the king when it became apparent he wouldn't interfere, Jefferson's declaration was intended to do that as was the writings of Thomas Paine.

On to the founders views of the legislative branch I would direct you to federalist paper 48
"The legislative department is everywhere extending the sphere of its activity, and drawing all power into its impetuous vortex." - James Madison.

You're placing your feelings and cynical views into the mindset of the founders, the purpose of the senate is to muzzle tyranny and prevent monistic thought, it wasn't created merely to protect the landed wealthy interests.

If your interested in Madison's views of the senate, read federalist paper 62.

I'm not remotely wrong. With few exceptions (e.g., Alexander Hamilton), your contention that the founders feared the legislative branch more than the executive is preposterous and without any historical support. Federalist 48 is about "checks and balances," and the benefits thereof. You would do well to understand the Federalist Papers rather than merely pulling out isolated sentences. It is, of course, historically clear that following the American revolution, the various state governments (independent nations) greatly diminished (practically to the point of non-existence in some cases) executive authority and fully empowered their legislatures. It is this that Madison is remarking upon, in the context of the necessity of checks and balances to prevent tyranny generally:

Will it be sufficient to mark, with precision, the boundaries of these departments, in the constitution of the government, and to trust to these parchment barriers against the encroaching spirit of power? This is the security which appears to have been principally relied on by the compilers of most of the American constitutions. But experience assures us, that the efficacy of the provision has been greatly overrated; and that some more adequate defense is indispensably necessary for the more feeble, against the more powerful, members of the government. The legislative department is everywhere extending the sphere of its activity, and drawing all power into its impetuous vortex.

While Madison is arguing in defense of a stronger executive, this is only necessary in the first place because of how much power had been taken from the branch and placed in the hands of fully empowered legislatures in the various state constitutions and Articles of Confederation (which had no executive at all--even the idea of a council appointed by Congress had been rejected). So while it might be correct to say that Madison argued for a stronger executive, this was not relative to the British monarchy but to the reaction to it by the new states. Because there remained intense fear of executive power, Madison had to explain that there could be benefits in placing some power in an independent executive. The executive branch proposed by the Constitution was still incredibly weak by any standard other than not having one at all.

Madison's argument is itself revealing. The way that he tries to argue that a legislature should not be completely unchecked by any other branch is by equating a fully-empowered legislature to a powerful executive:

The founders of our republics have so much merit for the wisdom which they have displayed, that no task can be less pleasing than that of pointing out the errors into which they have fallen. A respect for truth, however, obliges us to remark, that they seem never for a moment to have turned their eyes from the danger to liberty from the overgrown and all-grasping prerogative of an hereditary magistrate, supported and fortified by an hereditary branch of the legislative authority. They seem never to have recollected the danger from legislative usurpations, which, by assembling all power in the same hands, must lead to the same tyranny as is threatened by executive usurpations.

So, as you can see, it is executive usurpation that is the primary concern, and Madison had his work cut out for him merely to explain the benefits of placing even any semblance of real power in that branch. This was the point of Federalist 48: to explain the enhanced executive power contained in the proposed constitution, but enhanced relative to nothing. You cannot turn this argument into one that the founders (and Americans generally) were somehow pro-executive and anti-legislative. Federalist 48 itself disproves that contention. (Plus, you may be the first person I have ever seen even attempt to make it.)

No, the senate is meant to be more deliberative and to prevent the aspirations of the momentary majority.
George Washington referred to it as "the saucer to cool the houses tea".

Again, saying that something was intended is not an argument that it is good. And, again, intending that something be "more deliberative" is not intending that it be supermajoritarian. Plus, we've already established that Madison viewed the Senate to be "more deliberative" in the sense of acting to protect the opulent minority from "too much" popular democracy.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
Come on Man...lol[/spoiler]

Dammit.

Edit:

Mitt Romney, Feb 4, 2012:


“The president tells us that without his intervention things in Detroit would be worse. I believe that without his intervention things there would be better.”

Eric Fehrnstrom, senior adviser to the Romney campaign, April 30, 2012:


Romney’s “position on the bailout was exactly what President Obama followed. I know it infuriates them to hear that. The only economic success that President Obama has had is because he followed Mitt Romney’s advice.”
Good grief.
 

Kosmo

Banned
Romney’s “position on the bailout was exactly what President Obama followed. I know it infuriates them to hear that. The only economic success that President Obama has had is because he followed Mitt Romney’s advice.”

What's not true about this? It did play out exactly how Romney suggested. You act like the industry would have disappeared - if so, why hasn't that happened with all the airlines that have filed bankruptcy over the last 20 years?

The only difference would have been less clout with the UAW for Obama.
 
What's not true about this? It did play out exactly how Romney suggested. You act like the industry would have disappeared - if so, why hasn't that happened with all the airlines that have filed bankruptcy over the last 20 years?

The only difference would have been less clout with the UAW for Obama.

FAKE EDIT: I was going to type up a reply, but then I realized there was no point.
 

Atilac

Member
You cannot turn this argument into one that the founders (and Americans generally) were somehow pro-executive and anti-legislative. Federalist 48 itself disproves that contention. (Plus, you may be the first person I have ever seen even attempt to make it.)

At no point did I state the founders (especially Americans in general) were pro-executive and anti-legislator, I merely pointed out the founders intentions as they are written in the Federalist papers. Of having a divided government to separate powers to prevent tyranny.

Again, saying that something was intended is not an argument that it is good.
It sure is when the original question was "why does the senate exist?". It exists because the founders feared an all power legislator, which James Madison describes as an "impetuous vortex".
 
What's not true about this? It did play out exactly how Romney suggested. You act like the industry would have disappeared - if so, why hasn't that happened with all the airlines that have filed bankruptcy over the last 20 years?

The only difference would have been less clout with the UAW for Obama.

Impressive revisionist history. First 911 didn't happen on Bush's watch, now the credit/finance market was perfectly healthy enough for someone to fix the auto industry.

Not even Rick Snyder believes that
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
Impressive revisionist history. First 911 didn't happen on Bush's watch, now the credit/finance market was perfectly healthy enough for someone to fix the auto industry.

Not even Rick Snyder believes that

Who said that 9/11 didn't happen under Bush's watch? that is pretty damn silly.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
What's not true about this? It did play out exactly how Romney suggested. You act like the industry would have disappeared - if so, why hasn't that happened with all the airlines that have filed bankruptcy over the last 20 years?

The only difference would have been less clout with the UAW for Obama.

There are two quotes there. One is from Romney saying Obama's intervention made things worse.

The second quote is from a Romney campaign advisor arguing that Obama did exactly what Romney said. Put the two together for a moment, and try to square them.

This sets aside the fact that Romney's advice was explicit: managed bankruptcy, but no government backstops for the companies. Obama's team went with a managed bankruptcy, but provided all the funding for them, to much criticism. But without doing that, the companies would have gone under, because private financing did not exist for them.

Had Obama's team followed Romney's advice, GM and Chrysler would have gone under. But they didn't. And now Romney's campaign is simultaneously criticizing Obama for doing what he did (he made things worse!) while taking credit for the success (he followed Mitt's lead!).

History shows all this will be lost on you, but there you go.
 
"Even Jimmy Carter," eesh. I mean I know they're just evoking the standard "Jimmy Carter's a weenie" thing, but in context of where that perception actually arose from, it's pretty dumb.

Yeah, such a bullshit revisionist history. Jimmy Carter is painted as this wuss. But the reality is that he is the namesake of the "The Carter Doctrine" which basically says "If you mess with our oil supply in the mid-East we will fuck you up."

And Jimmy Carter approved the Iranian hostage rescue mission which was obviously very risky and ended up as a huge disaster.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
Yeah, such a bullshit revisionist history. Jimmy Carter is painted as this wuss. But the reality is that he is the namesake of the "The Carter Doctrine" which basically says "If you mess with our oil supply in the mid-East we will fuck you up."

And Jimmy Carter approved the Iranian hostage rescue mission which was obviously very risky and ended up as a huge disaster.

Maybe he meant it as a more even-keeled backhanded comment, like "Even Carter after his failed Iran hostage mission would have done it."

...maybe :p
 

Tim-E

Member
Fuck David Gregory, you actually had a policy discussion there, and that cunt dumb it down to some horse race talking point like "turning the clock back".
Fuck off, two of your guests made conflicting factual statements in front of your face, how about you do your journalistic duty and tell the viewers who is right?
Hint: it rhymes with Lachel Maddow.

I cannot stomach Meet the Press because Gregory just sits there and lets his guests blatantly lie. Dishonesty is apparently okay when it's being used to persuade political opinion just so you don't seem like you're stepping on anyone's toes.

I could go on a rant about how trying to please everyone if if someone is lying is one of the most depressing things about this country, but I think everyone here pretty much agrees with me. I don't know how the American public can stomach this.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
wow. Dana Carino. LOL.

Good stuff. I am guessing nobody refuted that point, either.

Damn Fox News, if it could just have that coat rack Sheperd on all the time, it wouldn't be a horrible network.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
I cannot stomach Meet the Press because Gregory just sits there and lets his guests blatantly lie. Dishonesty is apparently okay when it's being used to persuade political opinion just so you don't seem like you're stepping on anyone's toes.

I could go on a rant about how trying to please everyone if if someone is lying is one of the most depressing things about this country, but I think everyone here pretty much agrees with me. I don't know how the American public can stomach this.

That is my main hatred with how these panel shows all go. When the host disagrees, the best defense they can come up with is "Well, I don't know about that..." and then they move on. It was totally normal for the repubs running for president to consistently lie about themselves, their opponents, and president Obama. We know that they are all joke candidates anyway. But the fact that they could not be tested or reprimanded for their own stupidity without the crazy partisan crowds booing the moderators or the candidates, in the very rare times that they would say something true.
 

Tim-E

Member
The existence of Fox News wouldn't be so depressing to me if 90% of all businesses that have televsions in them that I go into during the day didn't have it on. Everyone sitting around and watching it takes everything at face value.
 

RDreamer

Member
The existence of Fox News wouldn't be so depressing to me if 90% of all businesses that have televsions in them that I go into during the day didn't have it on. Everyone sitting around and watching it takes everything at face value.

It is seriously depressing. I absolutely hate going into any business and seeing that crap on or hearing Rush Limbaugh on.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
I think it is just the "broad" thing he does all the time. I could see how it would be offensive to some, sort of like saying trannie or other derisive terms. I am surprised some of GAF's ultra-offended crowd (or RiskyChris) hasn't popped in to express their outrage yet.
 
Obama straight up trolling Romney on Bin Laden, wow
http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/04/obama-needles-romney-on-old-bin-laden-quotes.php?ref=fpblg

There seemed to be a concerned effort in 08 to cast Obama's comments on Pakistan as a naive politician with no foreign policy experience attempting to talk tough. Even President Bush joined the gang pile to attack Obama's statement - before he was even the nominee, mind you.

Obama is simply using the same playbook republicans used for a decade on "mommy and daddy" foreign policy, and they're pissed. Romney has no leg to stand on, and this will be even more apparent during an actual debate where Obama will get to do what the media most likely will not do: bring up Romney's previous comments on Pakistan and keep pressing for the world to see.
 
It sure is when the original question was "why does the senate exist?". It exists because the founders feared an all power legislator, which James Madison describes as an "impetuous vortex".

The question is not why does the Senate exist, it is why should it. The Federalist papers present an argument for it, but that is just an argument. And it is one rooted in 18th century America. The "impetuous vortex" reference explains why an executive branch exists, not why the Senate exists. You'll need to look at 62-66 for that (which do include a reference to the Senate as an "additional impediment ... against improper acts of legislation," but this is in passing and not the primary argument put forward for the Senate's existence. Of course, I've already quoted, long ago, Madison's remarks at the convention as to his opinion (that the Senate would be useful to protect the interests of the landed gentry--i.e., himself).

Remember, though, that the Federalist Papers come with a caveat. These essays were meant to persuade the public to ratify the proposed constitution. They are, therefore, first and foremost rhetoric (an art). If you want to know what people sincerely believed, you have to turn to other sources. That is not to say that neither Madison nor Hamilton believed what they wrote in those papers, but it is to say that they were presenting argument to a known audience on particular subjects that they knew required defending in certain ways--ways that appealed particularly to anti-Federalists. The Federalist Papers are accordingly not the best source material for the actual beliefs of Madison and/or Hamilton.

Something Wicked - "I believe a Nobel Prize winner is an idiot."

To be fair, the "Nobel Price" in economics is just an award given out by Sweden's central bank. Krugman can be and has been wrong about things. He's just more right than a lot of other economists, especially ones in positions of power.
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Obama straight up trolling Romney on Bin Laden, wow
http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/04/obama-needles-romney-on-old-bin-laden-quotes.php?ref=fpblg

There seemed to be a concerned effort in 08 to cast Obama's comments on Pakistan as a naive politician with no foreign policy experience attempting to talk tough. Even President Bush joined the gang pile to attack Obama's statement - before he was even the nominee, mind you.

Obama is simply using the same playbook republicans used for a decade on "mommy and daddy" foreign policy, and they're pissed. Romney has no leg to stand on, and this will be even more apparent during an actual debate where Obama will get to do what the media most likely will not do: bring up Romney's previous comments on Pakistan and keep pressing for the world to see.

What makes this interesting is that in 2008 there was a debate how to handle it because everyone was playing the "what if" game.

But there is no debated today. There's only facts, and the fact is: Obama got bin Laden, and Romney was against such action.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
Obama straight up trolling Romney on Bin Laden, wow
http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/04/obama-needles-romney-on-old-bin-laden-quotes.php?ref=fpblg

There seemed to be a concerned effort in 08 to cast Obama's comments on Pakistan as a naive politician with no foreign policy experience attempting to talk tough. Even President Bush joined the gang pile to attack Obama's statement - before he was even the nominee, mind you.

Obama is simply using the same playbook republicans used for a decade on "mommy and daddy" foreign policy, and they're pissed. Romney has no leg to stand on, and this will be even more apparent during an actual debate where Obama will get to do what the media most likely will not do: bring up Romney's previous comments on Pakistan and keep pressing for the world to see.

Yup, the debates are going to be amazing. Romeny's response:

“It’s unfortunate that President Obama would prefer to use what was a good day for all Americans as a cheap political ploy and an opportunity to distort Governor Romney’s strong policies on the war on terror,” Saul said in an e-mail.

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entries/romney-camp-feckless-obamas-bin-laden-talk-cheap

What policies are those?
 
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