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Christopher Columbus monument vandalized in Baltimore

E

Elegant Weapon

Member
Tonedeff said:
That's fine. I honestly might've went too far
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Fuck it, I know I can go way too hard sometimes. I try to keep it cooler and let my points speak for themselves but everyone already has their side even if it's on the fence. Like you can make great points and people will ignore them anyway, because their beliefs benefit them or they believe they do so why change? It's frustrating when everyone has an opinion but there not invested, knowledgable or interested in learning. Most people feel like they already learned everything they needed to know in the public school system.

Nev said:
Hopefully everyone cheering this would be cool with the huge monument to one of the biggest genocidal, psycopath human trash in history (Genghis Khan) in Mongolia being vandalized.
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If the people want it down, you think I'm going to cry? I don't have reverence for anyone genocidal in history that I can think.


Monuments are erected by oppressors, we have photographic evidence to appreciate any supposed artistic merit; take that shit down for all I care
 
N

Nafai1123

Banned
Who gives a shit? The revisionist history surrounding Columbus needs to die, along with the national holiday celebrating genocide.
 
B

Bam Bam Baklava

Member
There's a difference between honoring historical figures despite their flaws and honoring them precisely because of their flaws.

Statues of George Washington don't have plaques that talk what an awesome slave owner he was. Statues of MLK don't talk about how rock solid a misogynist he was that really put those women in their place. These men were products of their time and their time included a lot of poor treatment of minorities, women, homosexuals, and so on.

What Confederate statues do is specifically honor men for fighting for a cause which is thought to be egregious today. It's a pretty simple difference.
 
S

SummitAve

Banned
Do the crime if are willing to do the time. I personally won't be out there vandalizing public property as I don't think that is the right way to go about this.
 
D

Deepwater

Member
Bam Bam Baklava said:
There's a difference between honoring historical figures despite their flaws and honoring them precisely because of their flaws.

Statues of George Washington don't have plaques that talk what an awesome slave owner he was. Statues of MLK don't talk about how rock solid a misogynist he was that really put those women in their place. These men were products of their time and their time included a lot of poor treatment of minorities, women, homosexuals, and so on.

What Confederate statues do is specifically honor men for fighting for a cause which is thought to be egregious today. It's a pretty simple difference.
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How about we don't compare owning human slaves to infidelity?
 
E

Elegant Weapon

Member
Bam Bam Baklava said:
There's a difference between honoring historical figures despite their flaws and honoring them precisely because of their flaws.

Statues of George Washington don't have plaques that talk what an awesome slave owner he was. Statues of MLK don't talk about how rock solid a misogynist he was that really put those women in their place. These men were products of their time and their time included a lot of poor treatment of minorities, women, homosexuals, and so on.

What Confederate statues do is specifically honor men for fighting for a cause which is thought to be egregious today. It's a pretty simple difference.
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I think he was more a womanizer, cheater and swinger than someone who despised and was prejudice against woman, just to be fair. Dude was cheating on his wife, it wasn't like he advocating against woman's rights or beat her.
 
E

Eidan

Member
Mousnis said:
No, tell me your limits. When do you decide a monument is evil or recent enough so you can vandalize/destroy it?
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Sure.

A statue of a person more often than not is a celebration of and idolization of that person. I will judge the appropriateness of vandalizing the statue by the actions of the person, and what I view as the consequences of that person's idolization. In other words, it's a case by case sort of thing. Christopher Columbus was a vile man who encapsulates the worst of colonialism. In no way should he be celebrated, and I think his continued idolization is a net negative on our culture to this very day. The man simply shouldn't have statues celebrating him, full stop.

Large structures made by slaves don't by default rub me the wrong way, because I don't see their presence as a celebration of slavery, though I wouldn't be offended if someone else did. So for the same reason I'm not irked by the Great Pyramid of Giza, I'm seriously not that aggravated whenever I see the Washington Monument as I walk down the National Mall.
 
N

Nev

Banned
Well I guess there's a fair stance to take in regards to confederate statues and such being removed because the underlying society division is still latent, especially given today's climate.

But that's a thing for USA to figure out and it's bigger than just vandalizing statues imo.
 
M

mavo

Banned
Now it got me thinking if we should destroy the statues of Aztec tlatoanis in Mexico because they were dicks that terrorized their neighbors and ripped the hearts out of their rivals for Huitzilopochtli.
 
T

Thorgal

Member
ultratruman said:
Doesn't matter what their importance to History is, monuments about historical figures that are not 100% clean of any association with past injustice need to be physically destroyed. Because my feelings cannot handle it.
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In that case, might as well take a sledgehammer to 90% of all statues and monuments on the planet.
 
S

Seductivpancakes

Member
mavo said:
Now it got me thinking if we should destroy the statues of Aztec tlatoanis in Mexico because they were dicks that terrorized their neighbors and ripped the hearts out of their rivals for Huitzilopochtli.
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As someone else pointed out, they dont exist anymore and neither does their culture and ideology. Meanwhile Columbus and confederate statues still represent a very shitty racist issue the U.S has.
 
M

manakel

Member
Mael said:
Convincing people is certainly the way to go but trying to act like anything is going to be reported accurately is a fool's errand.
There's better way than random vandalism I agree, but not because FoxNews have something to say about it.
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Right I agree, that's all I'm trying to convey. That vandalism isn't the best way.

I'm genuinely curious as to what people think about cities that are named after people. I live in Columbus, Ohio. Should we petition to change the name of the city? Where does the line get drawn between what is acceptable and what is not?
 
D

Deepwater

Member
manakel said:
Right I agree, that's all I'm trying to convey. That vandalism isn't the best way.

I'm genuinely curious as to what people think about cities that are named after people. I live in Columbus, Ohio. Should we petition to change the name of the city? Where does the line get drawn between what is acceptable and what is not?
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if the citizens want to make a case to change it, then yeah sure why not.
 
nkarafo

nkarafo

Member
Eidan said:
Sure.

A statue of a person more often than not is a celebration of and idolization of that person. I will judge the appropriateness of vandalizing the statue by the actions of the person, and what I view as the consequences of that person's idolization. In other words, it's a case by case sort of thing. Christopher Columbus was a vile man who encapsulates the worst of colonialism. In no way should he be celebrated, and I think his continued idolization is a net negative on our culture to this very day. The man simply shouldn't have statues celebrating him, full stop.

Large structures made by slaves don't by default rub me the wrong way, because I don't see their presence as a celebration of slavery, though I wouldn't be offended if someone else did. So for the same reason I'm not irked by the Great Pyramid of Giza, I'm seriously not that aggravated whenever I see the Washington Monument as I walk down the National Mall.
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I just don't agree with the notion that monuments should stay or go, based on personal feelings of each individual or how many people are "rubbed the wrong way" or not. This is something that changes from time to time. IMO, monuments and artifacts of history should be protected as artifacts of history.

I do agree that not all monuments have the same significance though. Even though i disagree with it's destruction i can't say i feel sad about that particular Colombus monument but if something happened to the pyramids i would be devastated.
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
ultratruman said:
Doesn't matter what their importance to History is, monuments about historical figures that are not 100% clean of any association with past injustice need to be physically destroyed. Because my feelings cannot handle it.
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Columbus genocided natives and sold and used child sex slaves

As someone part native, I ain't got no fuckin' problem if every vestige of Columbus burns.
 
Thelonelykoopa

Thelonelykoopa

Member
Thorgal said:
In that case, might as well take a sledgehammer to 90% of all statues and monuments on the planet.
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Well not destroyed I would argue the majority of the world statues need to be put in a museum and have statues of morally upstanding people take their place.


manakel said:
Right I agree, that's all I'm trying to convey. That vandalism isn't the best way.

I'm genuinely curious as to what people think about cities that are named after people. I live in Columbus, Ohio. Should we petition to change the name of the city? Where does the line get drawn between what is acceptable and what is not?
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Isnt that one of the reason its called CBUS and not Columbus .
 
M

Mael

Member
manakel said:
Right I agree, that's all I'm trying to convey. That vandalism isn't the best way.

I'm genuinely curious as to what people think about cities that are named after people. I live in Columbus, Ohio. Should we petition to change the name of the city? Where does the line get drawn between what is acceptable and what is not?
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Name of places is an interesting problem.
Then again from where I'm from we change the name of everything if we have a problem about it.
If people living there have a problem with it, they're free to change it and keep a plaque comemorating the former name.
Otherwise they're free to be associated with it.
Heck when talking about indigenous population of America we use the term pre-colombian era. Heck we have a country called Colombia after all.
I guess Colombia as a word got a life on its own, Columbus the guy though? Fuck him and everything he stood for.

Mousnis said:
I just don't agree with the notion that monuments should stay or go, based on personal feelings of each individual or how many people are "rubbed the wrong way" or not. This is something that changes from time to time. IMO, monuments and artifacts of history should be protected as artifacts of history.

I do agree that not all monuments have the same significance though. Even though i disagree with it's destruction i can't say i feel sad about that particular Colombus monument but if something happened to the pyramids i would be devastated.
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They don't come and go based on feelings but on what they represent.
the Pyramids are really more a representation of human architecture than a monument to slavery or something.
the same can't be said about mass produced treason monuments or a statue to a genocidal maniac.
 
BibiMaghoo

BibiMaghoo

Member
I'm not American, but he is historically important enough to be taught about in my school as a kid, half a world away. He is clearly a much more significant figure in history than those of confederate heroes within states or associated military figures.

On that basis alone, I would consider removal of his statues under the same position as the confederate statues misguided and massively undervaluing his place in history, however shitty he was a person, however much he did or did not contribute. His name is known throughout the world and he would be in any list of historically important figures worldwide, not just in America. I would not support their destruction.
 
E

Elegant Weapon

Member
BibiMaghoo said:
I'm not American, but he is historically important enough to be taught about in my school as a kid, half a world away. He is clearly a much more significant figure in history than those of confederate heroes within states or associated military figures.

On that basis alone, I would consider removal of his statues under the same position as the confederate statues misguided and massively undervaluing his place in history, however shitty he was a person, however much he did or did not contribute. His name is known throughout the world and he would be in any list of historically important figures worldwide, not just in America. I would not support their destruction.
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What country are you from if you don't mind?
 
M

manakel

Member
Thelonelykoopa said:
Isnt that one of the reason its called CBUS and not Columbus .
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No lol. It's just called and typed CBUS for abbreviation, the same way people call Cleveland CLE. I don't think it has anything to do with the history of the name, and I've never actually heard anyone say CBUS. Just typed out.
 
J

Jenov

Member
IaN_GAF said:
Or maybe we should discuss what it actually means to have a statue of a certain person.

Because right now I am getting the feeling that there being a statue of Columbus translates to some people as "we all agree that every single thing this person did is amazing". Which is obviously ridiculous.

What a statue should probably translate into is something more like: "back when they built this, this person was celebrated over this and this achievement, now allow me to put this into perspective by looking at it from a modern day point of view".

That's why, rather than destroying statues, I think we should replace them. Put the old ones somewhere on display for educational purposes, but decorate our cities with statues of figures that fit our current society and moral standing, so that generations from now the children of our children's children can learn from us.
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Well said.
 
Thelonelykoopa

Thelonelykoopa

Member
manakel said:
No lol. It's just called and typed CBUS for abbreviation, the same way people call Cleveland CLE. I don't think it has anything to do with the history of the name, and I've never actually heard anyone say CBUS. Just typed out.
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Oh my friends in college must just be wierd than lol. And yeah I know its originated from the Bus system.
 
BibiMaghoo

BibiMaghoo

Member
Elegant Weapon said:
What country are you from if you don't mind?
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UK. A quick google tells me this is still the case today.

Pupils should be taught about:
the lives of significant individuals in the past who have contributed to national and international achievements, some should be used to compare aspects of life in different periods [for example, Elizabeth I and Queen Victoria, Christopher Columbus and Neil Armstrong, William Caxton and Tim Berners-Lee, Pieter Bruegel the Elder and LS Lowry, Rosa Parks and Emily Davison, Mary Seacole and/or Florence Nightingale and Edith Cavell]
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D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
statues made for famous cunts that had a massive historical impact probably belong in a museum rather than in public.
 
M

Mael

Member
catfish said:
statues made for famous cunts that had a massive historical impact probably belong in a museum rather than in public.
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About statues in museums, seriously museums aren't landfills where you put shit you don't want anymore.
Statues are more important based on WHO made it rather than what is depicted.
 
D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
Mael said:
About statues in museums, seriously museums aren't landfills where you put shit you don't want anymore.
Statues are more important based on WHO made it rather than what is depicted.
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I'm assuming the pieces would have value both money and educational. I can see why the public wouldn't want to just have a statue of some famous rapist in the park, but in a museum where there is historical info about the things the guy did, both good and bad... it seems appropriate to me.
 
D

Dirtyshubb

Member
IaN_GAF said:
Or maybe we should discuss what it actually means to have a statue of a certain person.

Because right now I am getting the feeling that there being a statue of Columbus translates to some people as "we all agree that every single thing this person did is amazing". Which is obviously ridiculous.

What a statue should probably translate into is something more like: "back when they built this, this person was celebrated over this and this achievement, now allow me to put this into perspective by looking at it from a modern day point of view".

That's why, rather than destroying statues, I think we should replace them. Put the old ones somewhere on display for educational purposes, but decorate our cities with statues of figures that fit our current society and moral standing, so that generations from now the children of our children's children can learn from us.
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Honestly I think when your dealing with statues of people who have been promoted as heroes when in actuality they were monsters, having them up just brings the opportunity for people to continue thinking they are great people.

Instead get rid of the statues and plaques etc. And simply start educating people on the truth. Over time you remove the memory of their false praise and instead focus on what actually happened.
 
J

johancruijff

Banned
Thelonelykoopa said:
Yep, Its all old American Revolution Era propaganda to defame Cabbot by prentending the colonial era never happened(Hell its still taught super poorly in schools) by instead making up fantastical history with a genocidal maniac as the starting point.
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at that point use Amerigo Vespucci that is (allegedly) the first who understood that the Americas were a whole new continent

and derives from his name

afaik he wasn't a mass murderer
 
pr0cs

pr0cs

Member
Should have been done through proper channels and with due process. Lynch mob mentality sets a shitty president
 
M

Mael

Member
catfish said:
I'm assuming the pieces would have value both money and educational. I can see why the public wouldn't want to just have a statue of some famous rapist in the park, but in a museum where there is historical info about the things the guy did, both good and bad... it seems appropriate to me.
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I mean sure, but most of the time statues are important because of who made it rather than the subject matter.
A museum of American conquest or whatever certainly could use it.

Dirtyshubb said:
Honestly I think when your dealing with statues of people who have been promoted as heroes when in actuality they were monsters, having them up just brings the opportunity for people to continue thinking they are great people.

Instead get rid of the statues and plaques etc. And simply start educating people on the truth. Over time you remove the memory of their false praise and instead focus on what actually happened.
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Also stop celebrating traitors, that's a good start.
Of all the people you want to make a plaque regarding WWI, don't choose the one guy who was very happy to give his country to the nazis.
 
G

ghostofsparta

Member
Seductivpancakes said:
As someone else pointed out, they dont exist anymore and neither does their culture and ideology. Meanwhile Columbus and confederate statues still represent a very shitty racist issue the U.S has.
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It's so infuriating when I see or hear this.

Aztec people are still alive today. Their culture is pretty close to dead thanks to the Spanish, but thier language still around and spoken by thousands

Native people are still here. C'mon gaf, you're better than that

It's like "who cares about native people, they don't even exist anymore!" Ahh fuck out of here
 
Thelonelykoopa

Thelonelykoopa

Member
Mael said:
I mean sure, but most of the time statues are important because of who made it rather than the subject matter.
A museum of American conquest or whatever certainly could use it.



Also stop celebrating traitors, that's a good start.
Of all the people you want to make a plaque regarding WWI, don't choose the one guy who was very happy to give his country to the nazis.
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The obelisk would actually be better placed in a museum dedicated to Early Republic American history as it's historical relevance has more to do with the establishing of an American Identity in that period which was seperate from that when they were british colonies and the creation of the Columbus Mythos.
 
M

Mael

Member
Thelonelykoopa said:
The obelisk would actually be better placed in a museum dedicated to Early Republic American history as it's historical relevance has more to do with the eastabling of an American Identity in that period which was seperate from that when they were british colonies and the creation of the Columbus Mythos.
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You are absolutely correct.
I was more speaking about statues in general but you are 100% correct.
 
B

Billy_Pilgrim

Member
ghostofsparta said:
It's so infuriating when I see or hear this.

Aztec people are still alive today. Their culture is pretty close to dead thanks to the Spanish, but thier language still around and spoken by thousands

Native people are still here. C'mon gaf, you're better than that
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Columbus is a slightly different case from the Aztecs, given that they were imperialistic, human sacrificing, cannibals who only lost to Cortes because they'd done such a good job of oppressing other indigenous cultures in central America.

The peoples Columbus initially encountered were fairly non-aggressive types.
 
G

ghostofsparta

Member
Billy_Pilgrim said:
Columbus is a slightly different case from the Aztecs, given that they were imperialistic, human sacrificing, cannibals who only lost to Cortes because they'd done such a good job of oppressing other indigenous cultures in central America.

The peoples Columbus initially encountered were fairly non-aggressive types.
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I'm not even arguing this tho. I'm stating the fact that Aztec people are still alive today. It's why so many people get fucked over, because people think we don't exist anymore
 
D

Dreams-Visions

Member
Tence said:
NTQ0NWM1ZWUzMSMvSFAtUG5lbDlMRExscnZQMVdvVkpORVlGUFNJPS9maXQtaW4vNzYweDAvZmlsdGVyczpub191cHNjYWxlKCk6cXVhbGl0eSg4MCk6bm9fdXBzY2FsZSgpOmZvcm1hdChqcGVnKS9odHRwOi8vaW1hZ2VzLm1pYy5jb20vYW5maHhnYnFmeGN1bm1yYnZ0dG9xcnUwZWFodjdla2xmZnJobnE4enU1MGJqdG5yeW1remdzaWh0anlwZjVhei5naWY.gif
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I like the cut of your jib.
 
S

Seductivpancakes

Member
ghostofsparta said:
It's so infuriating when I see or hear this.

Aztec people are still alive today. Their culture is pretty close to dead thanks to the Spanish, but thier language still around and spoken by thousands

Native people are still here. C'mon gaf, you're better than that

It's like "who cares about native people, they don't even exist anymore!" Ahh fuck out of here
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I should have worded it better. I meant to say their society and way of life don't exist anymore. I dont mean their descendants don't exist anymore.
 
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