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AP: Deadly rally accelerates removal of Confederate statues

M

Malyse

Member
DHPNTkaUwAAjwxK
 
K

Kthulhu

Member
Dash_Riprock said:
You're being VERY generous. Most of the policies were never even enacted thanks to Johnson.

Its like we raised our hand to begin the smackdown on the South but then stopped and slapped their wrist instead.
Click to expand...

I know, it was more to drive home a point than be accurate.
 
O

Ottaro

Member
As tensions mount over Confederate monuments throughout the nation, Mayor Mike Rawlings says he wants to form a task force to discuss the possible removal of such monuments in the city of Dallas.

During his statement Tuesday, Rawlings called the statues "dangerous totems" that "divide us versus unite us." However, he said he was hesitant to decide their fate without undergoing a united process.
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-WFAA Dallas

There is a protest against a downtown confederate memorial already planned for this saturday.
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
Good.

I just posted this in the BCT but I'm gonna cross post in here:

Folks even in the south for Robert E Lee never won't befuddle me.

Ain't like Lee marched all over the south to defend the GLORY OF THE CONFEDERACY (plz read in heavy Mississippi accent).

He never left Virginia except to attack the north once (and that ended in Gettysburg so), he didn't give a flying fuck about anybody but Virginia, why the hell he got statues in Missouri and Texas?

Oh right, we all know why, since he was allowed to live he was made into a messiah figure for those that pine for "the good ole days" of "southern pride".

Y'all hear a whistle?
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
Honestly the idea of southern states co-opting each others heroes when in fact, their decentralization and utter inability to mobilize to defend or raise levies for one another is the single largest reason they lost aside from pure logistics is, in some cosmic way, hilarious to me.
 
R

Razgriz-Specter

Member
So the Mayor of Birmingham ordered a Confederate monument covered up with walls after this as there is a state law banning removal if it is over 40 years old.

Good on the.......

And Birmingham is immediately sued by the Alabama AG.
 
S

Shard

XBLAnnoyance
Razgriz-Specter said:
So the Mayor of Birmingham ordered a Confederate monument covered up with walls after this as there is a state law banning removal if it is over 40 years old.

Good on the.......

And Birmingham is immediately sued by the Alabama AG.
Click to expand...

Would be shocked if that was intentional given this is something that needs to be challenged in the courts.
 
L

Lesath

Member
Razgriz-Specter said:
So the Mayor of Birmingham ordered a Confederate monument covered up with walls after this as there is a state law banning removal if it is over 40 years old.

Good on the.......

And Birmingham is immediately sued by the Alabama AG.
Click to expand...

Are there specific statutes that puts the onus on the city to *not* install structures around racist statues or otherwise protect them from desecration?
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
Prost said:
Interesting. Lee himself didn't want monuments worshiping him and highlighting the pain of the civil war. Too bad the racists don't care, and hijack his image to push their hatred.
Click to expand...

Before everyone praises this. Read his reasons. He wanted to erase the "civil strife" between whites
Meaning he didn't want union statues either. He wanted people to forget the whole thing so they could continue enshrining white supremacy in laws. This was to protect confederates and racists, not to promote equality which Lee never believed in.
 
R

Razgriz-Specter

Member
Lesath said:
Are there specific statutes that puts the onus on the city to *not* install structures around racist statues or otherwise protect them from desecration?
Click to expand...

The fine print said something like "removal or alterations"
The AG is saying the wall hiding it is an alteration and a violation of state law by Birmingham.
 
K

Kinvara

Member
The state I live in (TN) has a bust of the founder of the KKK in our state capitol in Nashville.

We are also stuck with the crazy-eyed statue too but that's on private property of a dude who's ""totally not racist"".

CINY5UVWEAQ7omb.jpg


Maiden Voyage said:
Did the person stop by Walmart, pick out some markers and a posterboard? It looks like something an 8 year-old would make.
Click to expand...

I mean.... you're probably 100% right on that.
 
A Black Falcon

A Black Falcon

Member
It's great that these monuments are being removed, but as someone who majored in history I don't like the idea of destroying them. One argument against them is that these are not statues put up shortly after the war, to directly commemorate it. Instead the statues that are getting the most attention are ones mostly put up in the early 20th century, as racist symbols of Jim Crow Southern oppression. Removing those symbols by taking those statues out of public squares and streets is great. People should not need to be reminded of that kind of oppression every time they walk down the street, and there is no other defense for having those statues there -- they fought for slavery, there is no defense like there is for Revolutionary War-era slaveowners we similarly honor -- and this is why the "but Washington will be next" argument is, I think, flawed. Yes, some people will say 'and Washington and Jefferson shouldn't be honored either', but they are not indelibly tied to the defense of slavery like Confederate figures are and that is a very important difference..

However, people saying that those statues should all be destroyed go way too far. Cultures throughout history have tried to erase people from history by scraping their names off of places it is written in stone, destroying statues, and the like, and I've never liked that, so I don't think that this is more okay just because these statues unquestionably honor something horrible. Put them in battlefield parks, cemeteries, historical societies, and the like; places where that kind of thing actually fits. Don't melt them down.

I know it is tricky though -- one the one hand it is important to remember history and not erase it, but on the other hand you don't want to create places where white nationalists will gather like they have been. If those statues were only in battlefield parks and historical societies and the like, would the new American Nazis be gathering there instead of in Charlottesville? Maybe then you could get rid of them, those people need to be stopped and providing such obvious places for them to gather is something that probably should be avoided. Despite that though I do think that it is important to remember history and not destroy monuments unless there is a very good reason for it.

There are more things beyond just statues to change, though. Flags are another important way many Southern states show their continued affection for slavery, for example. The Confederate battle flag is still right on the flag of one of our states, and that is horrible and very much needs to go! Though a lot of other Southern states have flags that heavily reference Confederacy-era designs in their flags; just because there isn't a stars-and-bars doesn't mean that flags aren't Confederate references, sadly. Georgia, for instance, replaced their old flag that had a big Confederate battle flag on it with a new one that's basically the Confederate national flag, but with the Georgia seal on it. So far states have gotten away with flags like those as the attention is all on the battle flag, but at some point this kind of thing needs to be changed as well.
 
D

digdug2k

Member
Ithil said:
These aren't historical, they're cheap mass produced trash put up by white supremacists during the 20th century to intimidate black people during Jim Crow era or during the Civil Rights movement. Very, very few are actually from the Civil War era. These don't have any place in a museum. Perhaps one of them crumpled and collapsed could be in a museum with pictures of the people who tore it down. That's actual history.
Click to expand...
I don't care if people tear these things down. I don't care if they cut them up. I don't care if the shit in their mouths. Its a product of the environment and time, and our (white people's) complete and utter fuck up of the world. Its a reflection of where we are. I'm not of the opinion that we can never change or touch art. Statues have been toppled countless times in countries across the world. There's nothing new happening here.

BUT, a lot of these aren't "cheap mass produced trash". Like, just looking at the list of Jefferson Davis memorials around the states, most of them are one of a kind commissioned pieces. They're definitely art. And if they weren't historic art before they were toppled in a protest, being toppled in a protest has made them it now.

Its a dumb excuse anyway. "Its fine to destroy this. Its cheap." Destroy/deface them because they're being used to promote hatred and racism/sexism/etc. Not because they're cheap.
 
E

Eusis

Member
Dash_Riprock said:
You're being VERY generous. Most of the policies were never even enacted thanks to Johnson.

Its like we raised our hand to begin the smackdown on the South but then stopped and slapped their wrist instead.
Click to expand...
Probably like one of the parents was going to be VERY harsh there, but got called away on a long ass business trip and the other one was just way too lenient about the bullshit their kid was doing.

EDIT: Running mates weren't even a thing until, funnily enough, Lincoln and Johnson. And I kind of suspect how THAT went down cemented doing it with same party candidates given Johnson just fucked all that up (and they probably wanted a backup to continue an agenda rather than one falling over dead and an entirely different agenda going forward.)
 
G

Garlador

Member
digdug2k said:
I don't care if people tear these things down. I don't care if they cut them up. I don't care if the shit in their mouths. Its a product of the environment and time, and our (white people's) complete and utter fuck up of the world. Its a reflection of where we are. I'm not of the opinion that we can never change or touch art. Statues have been toppled countless times in countries across the world. There's nothing new happening here.

BUT, a lot of these aren't "cheap mass produced trash". Like, just looking at the list of Jefferson Davis memorials around the states, most of them are one of a kind commissioned pieces. They're definitely art. And if they weren't historic art before they were toppled in a protest, being toppled in a protest has made them it now.

Its a dumb excuse anyway. "Its fine to destroy this. Its cheap." Destroy/deface them because they're being used to promote hatred and racism/sexism/etc. Not because they're cheap.
Click to expand...
Most are cheap AND racist though.
 
E

excelsiorlef

Member
A Black Falcon said:
It's great that these monuments are being removed, but as someone who majored in history I don't like the idea of destroying them. One argument against them is that these are not statues put up shortly after the war, to directly commemorate it. Instead the statues that are getting the most attention are ones mostly put up in the early 20th century, as racist symbols of Jim Crow Southern oppression. Removing those symbols by taking those statues out of public squares and streets is great. People should not need to be reminded of that kind of oppression every time they walk down the street, and there is no other defense for having those statues there -- they fought for slavery, there is no defense like there is for Revolutionary War-era slaveowners we similarly honor -- and this is why the "but Washington will be next" argument is, I think, flawed. Yes, some people will say 'and Washington and Jefferson shouldn't be honored either', but they are not indelibly tied to the defense of slavery like Confederate figures are and that is a very important difference..

However, people saying that those statues should all be destroyed go way too far. Cultures throughout history have tried to erase people from history by scraping their names off of places it is written in stone, destroying statues, and the like, and I've never liked that, so I don't think that this is more okay just because these statues unquestionably honor something horrible. Put them in battlefield parks, cemeteries, historical societies, and the like; places where that kind of thing actually fits. Don't melt them down.

I know it is tricky though -- one the one hand it is important to remember history and not erase it, but on the other hand you don't want to create places where white nationalists will gather like they have been. If those statues were only in battlefield parks and historical societies and the like, would the new American Nazis be gathering there instead of in Charlottesville? Maybe then you could get rid of them, those people need to be stopped and providing such obvious places for them to gather is something that probably should be avoided. Despite that though I do think that it is important to remember history and not destroy monuments unless there is a very good reason for it.

There are more things beyond just statues to change, though. Flags are another important way many Southern states show their continued affection for slavery, for example. The Confederate battle flag is still right on the flag of one of our states, and that is horrible and very much needs to go! Though a lot of other Southern states have flags that heavily reference Confederacy-era designs in their flags; just because there isn't a stars-and-bars doesn't mean that flags aren't Confederate references, sadly. Georgia, for instance, replaced their old flag that had a big Confederate battle flag on it with a new one that's basically the Confederate national flag, but with the Georgia seal on it. So far states have gotten away with flags like those as the attention is all on the battle flag, but at some point this kind of thing needs to be changed as well.
Click to expand...

They're all from way after the war and were mostly put up to intimidate black folk. Cherishing them in anyway is erasing not preserving history.

Put all the rubble in one museum with a wall collage of them being torn down and that would be honoring history more than keeping this dumb fucking things intact
 
E

Enzom21

Member
A Black Falcon said:
It's great that these monuments are being removed, but as someone who majored in history I don't like the idea of destroying them. One argument against them is that these are not statues put up shortly after the war, to directly commemorate it. Instead the statues that are getting the most attention are ones mostly put up in the early 20th century, as racist symbols of Jim Crow Southern oppression. Removing those symbols by taking those statues out of public squares and streets is great. People should not need to be reminded of that kind of oppression every time they walk down the street, and there is no other defense for having those statues there -- they fought for slavery, there is no defense like there is for Revolutionary War-era slaveowners we similarly honor -- and this is why the "but Washington will be next" argument is, I think, flawed. Yes, some people will say 'and Washington and Jefferson shouldn't be honored either', but they are not indelibly tied to the defense of slavery like Confederate figures are and that is a very important difference..

However, people saying that those statues should all be destroyed go way too far. Cultures throughout history have tried to erase people from history by scraping their names off of places it is written in stone, destroying statues, and the like, and I've never liked that, so I don't think that this is more okay just because these statues unquestionably honor something horrible. Put them in battlefield parks, cemeteries, historical societies, and the like; places where that kind of thing actually fits. Don't melt them down.

I know it is tricky though -- one the one hand it is important to remember history and not erase it, but on the other hand you don't want to create places where white nationalists will gather like they have been. If those statues were only in battlefield parks and historical societies and the like, would the new American Nazis be gathering there instead of in Charlottesville? Maybe then you could get rid of them, those people need to be stopped and providing such obvious places for them to gather is something that probably should be avoided. Despite that though I do think that it is important to remember history and not destroy monuments unless there is a very good reason for it.

There are more things beyond just statues to change, though. Flags are another important way many Southern states show their continued affection for slavery, for example. The Confederate battle flag is still right on the flag of one of our states, and that is horrible and very much needs to go! Though a lot of other Southern states have flags that heavily reference Confederacy-era designs in their flags; just because there isn't a stars-and-bars doesn't mean that flags aren't Confederate references, sadly. Georgia, for instance, replaced their old flag that had a big Confederate battle flag on it with a new one that's basically the Confederate national flag, but with the Georgia seal on it. So far states have gotten away with flags like those as the attention is all on the battle flag, but at some point this kind of thing needs to be changed as well.
Click to expand...
You are aware that there is an invention called a book, correct? And in these "books" there are words that usually provide information.
In a world where virtually all information is a google search away, this weak "forgetting history" argument is laughable.
They don't belong in battlefield parks or cemeteries. Do you think they have statues for Hitler and other nazis in battlefield parks or cemeteries in Germany?
What a ridiculous suggestion, they don't belong anywhere.

Speaking of Germany, do you think they have forgotten what happened during WWII?
I mean, they don't have random statues celebrating Hitler to remind them of what happened.
 
A

aspiegamer

Member
Though I'd prefer splashing the monuments with nuclear waste then then blasting them into the sun, I could probably be talked into moving most to the depths of museums with the message given of "lol, people celebrate slavery even today, how fucked up is that?!"

I'm nauseated in general with any thoughts of this "deleting history" in any way. No one is wiping anything from the history books. No person who would want confederate monuments removed would also want to clear them from anything even if they had the freedom to. It's completely contradictory. We -want- people to remember the civil war and how fucked up our priorities were back then (and that in some ways we're just barely past that today). We -want- these people that are currently memorialized to still be remembered as bigoted shitheads who fought for a pathetic cause and thankfully lost.
 
A Black Falcon

A Black Falcon

Member
aspiegamer said:
Though I'd prefer splashing the monuments with nuclear waste then then blasting them into the sun, I could probably be talked into moving most to the depths of museums with the message given of "lol, people celebrate slavery even today, how fucked up is that?!"

I'm nauseated in general with any thoughts of this "deleting history" in any way. No one is wiping anything from the history books. No person who would want confederate monuments removed would also want to clear them from anything even if they had the freedom to. It's completely contradictory. We -want- people to remember the civil war and how fucked up our priorities were back then (and that in some ways we're just barely past that today). We -want- these people that are currently memorialized to still be remembered as bigoted shitheads who fought for a pathetic cause and thankfully lost.
Click to expand...
I would certainly hope that you are right about this, because yes, that is about how the Civil War should be remembered.

Enzom21 said:
You are aware that there is an invention called a book, correct? And in these "books" there are words that usually provide information.
In a world where virtually all information is a google search away, this weak "forgetting history" argument is laughable.

They don't belong in battlefield parks or cemeteries. Do you think they have statues for Hitler and other nazis in battlefield parks or cemeteries in Germany?
What a ridiculous suggestion, they don't belong anywhere.

Speaking of Germany, do you think they have forgotten what happened during WWII?
I mean, they don't have random statues celebrating Hitler to remind them of what happened.
Click to expand...
Germany doesn't have our problem because after WWII the West actually de-Nazified Germany. There was no postwar period for them to put up statues honoring their wartime heritage, fly the flag of oppression, etc. But because in the US Reconstruction was abandoned after only a few years, we've got the problem of a century and a half of built-up post-civil war continued prejudice, oppression, flags, statues, etc. to deal with. It's a different problem that in a better world, where Reconstruction was actually pushed until it (hopefully) succeeded, we would not have.

As for Germany though, what they have done is put a lot of effort into remembering the war as something horrible that the nation needs to atone for and basically do the opposite of in the future. An opposite example would be Japan, which often wants to forget that the whole period ever happened. Germany builds memorials to its WWII victims; Japan does not. That's worse than Germany's response by a longshot.

But either way, or for things not taught often in schools here in America, people could look up more information online or in books about things they weren't taught the full truth about in school. But do most people do that? Probably not. What people are taught matters a lot. So, getting rid of these statues from public places is great, as it removes one of the public symbols of racial oppression that the Jim Crow Southern establishment erected. People need to learn the truth about why the South seceded -- that it was because of slavery, not "states rights". The myth of how great Robert E. Lee was needs to go away as well, because it never really was based on fact. Fortunately those things are happening, and the 20th century history of the Civil War, which was so frustratingly pro-Southern and pro-Lee, is being countered in many important ways. Just look at Ken Burns' Civil War and its depiction of Lee; I don't think a similar documentary today would be so kind. It certainly shouldn't be.

The line that cannot be crossed, however, is taking that too far and instead of trying to correct the way the war is remembered, trying to remove it -- to forget that people actually believed things that racist, because if people know that they may sympathize with those racist beliefs and become neo-Confederates themselves. It's easy to see why people might think that way, but it would do much more bad than good; I do not think that society is improved by pretending that bad things done in the past didn't happen. Now yes, the idea of completely erasing the memory of something is a very long-term concept at minimum, if it is even possible at all. There is no chance it could happen in the near future. Even so, deciding to forget something and pretend that the whole awful period never happened does not actually solve problems, it just papers them over and fails to account for any of the awful events that happened.

On a less theoretical level, as for battlefield parks, American Civil War battlefield parks are full of statues, memorials, etc. I think that having memorials at a place where those people actually fought makes plenty of sense.

So, thinking about it right now, my idea probably would be this: replace those statues of Lee and such in public squares with statues of slavery (and continued racial oppression)'s victims. That way you still remember that the war happened, but you do not honor evil anymore. Leave example statues of Confederate generals in historical societies and battlefield monuments. There needs to be some kind of public memory that the Civil War happened, but it should be tied to the continuing struggle against the kind of oppression that led to the war, not to glorifying people fighting for one of the worst things anyone has ever fought for.
 
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