Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Cooper needs to pardon them.
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Sheriff pursuing felonies after Confederate statue torn down
- Thread starter fluffydelusions
- Start date
But if we let black people do whatever they want, how will white people do whatever they want?
I mean, um, how will we maintain rule of law?
Psychoward
Banned
Will the people tsk tsking for the statue say the same thing for the authority's abuse of power and overzealous charges?
excelsiorlef
Member
Blue before you mate.
read below...
Here is the statute:
LINK
What they did doesn't fit this?
I'm going by the actual laws, not my personal beliefs.
no way that statue is worth more than 1500 dollars lol. Since it is less than $1500 damage there would only be misdemeanor charges.
If that's what you believe. I can't argue with your assumptions. I'm just giving the information available regarding the charges.
You can always research the costs, repairs, etc. and see what you come up with.
I'm sure the jury will come to the right decision.
The prosecution will have to show a detailed cost, how they identified those that are charged, and proof of the action involved in causing the damage. Were there three or more persons involved?
Pretty straight forward as far as the elements that need to be shown/proven. It's not a matter of having a jury agree or disagree with what they did, why they did it. It's a matter of law; if it gets into court that is.
If you were on the jury, and all the elements are proven in court, would you find them guilty or not guilty? I would find them guilty based on the rule of law, unless otherwise instructed by the judge.
Jesus at some of these posts. All German and Confederate soldiers were horrible vile people, they had a choice? You honestly believe that? I don't know about the situation with the Confederates as I'm not American but the German conscripted soldiers had the choice of a firing squad or going to war. What kind of choice is that, it isn't one. But no they were ALL Nazis, keep telling yourself that.
Though to a lesser degree but just as relevant, were all American soldiers in Vietnam horrible people? Honest question.
Though to a lesser degree but just as relevant, were all American soldiers in Vietnam horrible people? Honest question.
RichiRamjag
Member
Then shut the hell up about it.
Steeped in a Sea of Games
Member
Get the fuck out of here with your whataboutism bullshit. You don't honor the people who tried to tear your country apart. How many statues of American soldiers are there in Vietnam? Goddamn. Whether they were terrible or not is beside the point. They fought for an evil cause. Even if they did it out of fear, they are not good people.
While every confederate was not necessarily irredeemable they absolutely had a choice in the matter. There were hundreds of thousands of southerners who fought for the union.
The Germans had a choice, even if it wasn't the most appealing. If everyone would have stood up to Hitler from the beginning there would have never been a war. Hundreds of thousands of Germans DID choose to fight the nazis rather than go along.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
I hope each jury has one person with a moral backbone who refuses to convict.
I also hope someone like the ACLU steps up to offer free legal council.
This is what jury nullification is for
Your personal beliefs are, in order of priority:
1. People can be fucked over by the law if someone interprets that the law allows them to fuck people over
2. Everything else
Yeah, it's not looking good. Sheltered white kids are raised to see black people as criminals only until they personally meet them.
WHERE did I say this statue should stay up? Of course not that's ridiculous. I'm simply appalled at the people in this thread acting like all soldiers agree with the cause of their army.
So if Trump decided to bomb NK tomorrow and the US goes to war with China and it's allies, and for the sake of this argument the penalty for refusing conscription is the death penalty (which it never would be in 2017 but for the sake of the comparison), you would refuse anyway?
That's what "unless instructed otherwise" means.
. I'm well aware of what can happen, and I'm also aware that a judge can set aside a nullification and find for the prosecution. It's going to come down to how the judge instructs the jury. Also, the prosecution could plead this down just to keep it out of a trial.Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Even during the Civil War, the concept of being a conscientious objector was around. If a person's principles mean they refuse to fight, then that's what they do and they accept the consequences, or try to find a loophole.
Being a slave to the letter of the law when it's wrong is no way to live, and if you want to be taken seriously in a conversation about a topic you're not up on, then take some time to get up on it.
Not sure what the point of this conversation is.
I don't really care if not every soldier in the Confederate army agreed with its cause of perpetuating slavery. These statues and lawn ornaments were erected to honor soldiers who consciously fought for the South and for slavery, and to intimidate black people.
Not every generalization about the Confederacy and its military should be interjected with "oh, but not all of them though", that's not really relevant. Confederate leaders and veterans, those who were fully aware of who they were and what they fought for, went on to become major political influences in the South, and we are dealing with their aftermath today.
I would rather die than kill a single innocent person. Since it's impossible for me to judge who is and isn't innocent I can never kill anyone in war.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
Why not honour Germans or Americans? Why honour the nazis who forced them to go to war?
I was just going by the post I quoted alone.
People aren't bringing this up out of nowhere, in multiple places in this thread people have been saying ALL soldiers of the Confederate army were disgusting pieces of shit. Which I doubt was the case as is with almost any war. Literally no one is saying the statues should stay up, is it so hard for people to be a bit rational? If people went by this logic all German soldiers were Nazis, is there anyone that wants to honestly tell me that was true?
Again, it's not like someone mentions Nazis and is going "But not all Nazis!" It's when someone specifically says that they are all pieces of shit. I will do the exact same when someone says all police officers are pieces of shit.
I don't think the Confederates should be honoured at all, I'm just pointing out how the people in this very thread SPECIFICALLY stating that they were all vile pieces of shit are being too naive.
Duh, they fought to maintain a system of slavery
And this statue isn't of a particular confedere dude, it's TO THE IDEA OF THE CONFEDERATE ARMY ITSELF.
So i don't get why people are going #notallconfederates when the statue is literally ALLCONFEDERATES
Read back what was said. I provided the legal information about the charges. That's it. It doesn't have anything to do with whether I personally agreed or not. If that doesn't explain it better, then you'll just have to think whatever it is you want.
You wouldn't have provided the legal information if you didn't think it should be honored on some level.
Tearing down a statue nonviolently is inciting a riot. Having their homes ransacked and their property destroyed is necessary. This is all apparently justified within the rule of law, as far as we go to defend it.
I don't know if you would go so far as to think the law should be honored without question, and won't claim to. I'm trying to discern what appears to be your actual opinion solely on this small window into your observable priorities.
Literally not a single person in this thread is saying the statue should exist. No one.
Pretending that they are all evil is not only simplifying history but it enables us to turn a blind eye.
And that is exactly what is happening now. Conservatives don't look at Nazi Germany as a cautionary tale. They were just evil.
When a racist family member starts spouting nonsense most family members shrug it off. He is not a bad guy. He is just having a hard time and scapegoating.
Afghanistan and Iraq were invaded by a foreign force and are still an absolute mess. Most Americans now admit that it was a mistake.
Are the soldiers who joined after 9/11 evil bastards? Or were they misguided by the propaganda machine?
This is not to say these monuments shouldn't be taken down. They absolutely should but at the same time we shouldn't simplify history.
superdeluxe
Member
Glad these statues were torn down, I understand laws were broken, but I hope the juries can give them a pass
You just sympathizing and normalizing the reason for the statue existing.
People know what the civil war is, they celebrate it.
Do you know how many "...of confederate soldiers" groups there are?
How many " of SS soldiers" groups are there?
...good for you, I guess. People can make useful generalizations about organizations with a history of systematic oppression (e.g. Confederate army, Nazis, USA police) because it helps identify and fix problems.
Not sure what use you get out of correcting people, even though I think everyone is aware that - no shit - not every single member of these groups agreed with their cause and there's always some external reason. But, again, I fail to see the need to bring this up.
There is an alternative:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification_in_the_United_States
It is a little known fact that in the US a jury is allowed to set aside the law and return whatever verdict their conscience demands.
adamsappel
Member
I'm sure that statue cost tens of thousands of dollars. Statuary is expensive.
Lol. Clutched pearls and what about the law!!!! This is pathetic.
Slavery was legal too folks. And the justice system literally fucks people over disproportionately, without means to defend themselves. Rich folk? Law is bent and molested into shape to skip prison due to being too wealthy. Not that? Dur rules are the rules! Period!!!!
There is wiggle room for law. We see it in our God damned faces everyday. The fact that more folks are going to catch charges for this, than Charlottesville pd not being able to find anyone that beat a man nearly to death, and helped a murderer evade police is exactly what you had to lose.
It is absolutley sickening that since this weekend all these people have come out no only sympathize with nazis, KKK, human shit, etc. But bend over backwards to absolve them of any wrong doing. Nice to know what little people think of mine and minorities humanity.
"Slavery, it was just pranks bro".
and after writing 7 paragraphs of talking about how noble Johnny Confederate is then adding a sentence talking about the statues suck does not provide you cover.
"Slavery, it was just pranks bro".
and after writing 7 paragraphs of talking about how noble Johnny Confederate is then adding a sentence talking about the statues suck does not provide you cover.
Seriously. They said the charges were trumped up, and I provided the statute. Asked them if what these people did fit that statute. It doesn't have anything to do with my, my opinion, or my priorities. There's nothing to discern. I'm literally telling you.
The best I can say from my perspective is that if I'm investigating this, I'd present all the information to the district attorney and they can review it. They would ultimately be the ones to decide whether the actions and the statute meet the felony elements and should be charged. If the DA says it doesn't fit the scope for a felony, then I'd present the case to a magistrate and apply for a warrant. It's up to him to decide whether the case meets the criteria for a warrant. Done. Anything else?
It wasn't my job to decide what is and isn't an offense to be charged for when it comes down to after the fact activity. That means if I am not present during the act, then I don't decide whether someone is charged or not. That's up to a magistrate judge, or the district attorney. If I am present, then I would have the option to place someone under arrest, place them in jail (booking), and present the evidence to the magistrate/DA for a formal charge. Discretion. Sure. You have to weigh the totality of the circumstances as they are presented. Would I have arrested them if I was there while it was happening? That's hard to say since I obviously wasn't present and it's hard to see exactly what they atmosphere was when it was happening. Where there any officers around already? How was the rest of the crowd reacting towards officers (if they were there of course). It's not so simple as just saying, "Yes, they committed a crime, and I'd lock them up".
If you have any questions about it, feel free to ask.
Read up a little, I already addressed that.
I don't know if it was posted already but here are some links related to petitions for the arrested activists - you can also read a chroicle of the events of one of the local activsists and organizers Lamont Lilly's twitter feed:
https://twitter.com/lamontlilly?lang=en
https://southernvision.ourpowerbase.net/civicrm/petition/sign?sid=22&reset=1
http://durhamsolidaritycenter.org/bondfund/
I would also when talking about these neoconfederate monuments, for people to read up e.g on the debate in Charlottesville, what these articles show (and I can post many more macademic articlesif someone is interested), is that the monuments are not "spaces of memory", but used as active threats to the black communities:
http://www.charlottesville.org/home/showdocument?id=49037
http://thepolitic.org/moments-of-ru...and-a-southern-towns-search-for-its-identity/
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._helped_decimate_the_city_s_historically.html
From the slate article:
https://twitter.com/lamontlilly?lang=en
https://southernvision.ourpowerbase.net/civicrm/petition/sign?sid=22&reset=1
http://durhamsolidaritycenter.org/bondfund/
I would also when talking about these neoconfederate monuments, for people to read up e.g on the debate in Charlottesville, what these articles show (and I can post many more macademic articlesif someone is interested), is that the monuments are not "spaces of memory", but used as active threats to the black communities:
http://www.charlottesville.org/home/showdocument?id=49037
http://thepolitic.org/moments-of-ru...and-a-southern-towns-search-for-its-identity/
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._helped_decimate_the_city_s_historically.html
From the slate article:
ShironRedshift
Member
Indeed, and not just that, but even during the Civil War, even among the Confederate states, the idea of "rich man's war, poor man's battle" was not an uncommon one which referred to how the purpose of the war (as far as the Confederacy was concerned) was to protect the right to own slaves. However, this purpose primarily benefited large plantation owners who could make the most effective use and have the money to buy large numbers of slaves. Don't have a plantation? In that case, even if you were someone who didn't give a fuck about the ethics of slavery in of itself, the war nonetheless doesn't serve much of a purpose and was just to make sure the rich stayed richer. Hence, "rich man's war, poor man's battle."
And it's on that very premise that the northwestern counties of the state of Virginia separated from the state to form the state of West Virginia to become a separate state. To be clear, West Virginia didn't very much give a fuck about the rights of blacks or the actual topic of slavery in of itself one way or the other from my understanding. However, those counties knew that they wouldn't get much particular benefit from slavery one way or the other compared to the rest of the state of Virginia, so they chose to separate from them and become their own state. See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia
Of course, that's a selfish, self-serving reason to refusing to fight on the Confederacy's side and remaining one with with the rest of Virginia. But the point being, they absolutely had a choice of which side to fight on, and what to fight for, and they used it.
Anyone else could have easily done similarly, whether it involved fleeing to the Union, refusing to take arms, or following in the example of West Virginia and trying to get their localities to do likewise and refuse to aid the Confederacy. They all had a choice, and choose they did. No one forced them to do anything. Whatever they chose to do, it was their choice and no one else's. End of.
Well in Europe we don't have any in name because they are illegal. Groups in all but name we have plenty.
I think it is quite easy to clamp down on groups and statues and condemn all around without making it an issue of all foot soldiers being evil.
I mean my family fought the Germans and my great-grandfather had no issues condemning anything to do with the nazis while in one breath talking about the young boys he had to fight that were much like him.
My country was invaded by the Germans and now they are cherished and trusted neighbours. The far majority here still hate the nazis yet most people also make the distinction between the nazis and the people.
I think the whole every single soldier was evil narrative only makes it easier for the actual scum to hide amongst the moderates. It keeps alive an us vs them attitude which the alt right exploits.
It also makes us less critical about our current affairs.
I seem why you don't grasp the situation
Born and raised in Georgia the heart of the confederacy, I seen how this people are worshiped saw the systems they built after being pardoned in the war continue to subjugate black people . IF they were forced to fight and weren't bad people, why did they start lynching black people right after the war?
Why did did they burn down any thing freed slaves built?
Just because you want to give evil a pass doesn't mean others should
Sorry, I must have missed it.
Can you clarify why jury nullification can't apply here?My understanding is that if a jury believes the existing law or charges are unjust, it may vote to acquit despite evidence, direct instruction from the judge, and existing law.
But maybe I'm totally misreading this. (And of course I assume it's really unlikely that this could happen anyway.)
The reason that all happened is the exact same reason Donald Trump is president, a few good people can't stop a majority of bigots from getting what they want. We're not saying ALL of the confederate soldiers weren't bad people, just some of them, as it is with almost every war.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Yeah, the felony charge is bullshit. A group of teenagers who got together to spray paint graffiti is not a riot, why would this be?
It's probably being used for bargaining leverage, and hopefully they are getting good advice on what to do.
The reason Trump got elected was a majority white people were ok with siding with a bigot(Maybe not racist, but at the very least ok with racism. Which is pretty much the same thing). You not doing anything for your case.
You still empathizing and giving them a pass on fighting for slavery. And there been numerous examples of people refusing to fight.
I must act why after the events of this weekend are people popping up saying #notallnazis, #notallconfederates.
The empathy not for the victims but the victimizers is amazing, not shocking, but still amazing.
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