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[SEGAvangelist]

It kind of sucks that we're stuck with either 1080 or 4k for consoles. I definitely want higher then 1080 at this point, but 4k is too big a jump

Why are we stuck? Developers could easily render at a resolution between 1080p and 4K and that image would be either downscaled to 1080p (providing quality AA) or upscaled to 4K. It's not necessarily an either/or thing when talking 1080p and 4K resolutions.

 

[SpokkX]

Smart guy
Agree 100%, 4k is a waste if you play in front of a tv

 

[Tripolygon]

Viewing distance (to screen size) of the general console gaming public is certainly a factor, but people are going to yell about this and say only blind people can't tell the difference.

That is why he didn't say people can't tell the difference, he said it was a waste of resource.

 

[Mulgrok]

I don't know about what he is saying. Going from 1080p monitor to 2650x1600 I could turn off AA and framerate would go up and the picture would still look about as good. Maybe there is some secret sauce that makes AA more efficient than rendering pixels at 4k.

EDIT: objects and world detail were much better going to the higher resolution. I don't see any need to use AA and sacrifice lots of detail.

 

[BigTnaples]

4K is the biggest visual upgrade I have seen this gen aside from PBR.

People saying 1080p is fine, probably have not played 4K games on a nice display.

 

[PyroPaperPlanes]

You know, options is always nice. Personally, I prefer smoother frame rates over resolution. Don't kid yourself though, 1080p will eventually become the new 720p.

 

[brandonh83]

This is pretty much why stuff like frame rates will never be perfect. I love pretty just as much as the next person but we always get ahead of ourselves. I think they should be using better tech to nail performance above all else, but what the hell do I know.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

Agreed - seems like the devs already looking into Scorpio. Hopefully they are providing lots of feedback to MS about the console.

Looking forward to seeing more of Scorpio tbh.

 

[Gestault]

I'm glad to continue seeing developers mirror my feelings on this. I feel pretty strongly that framerate/IQ/effects should be prioritized over raw resolution. The rendering challenges we see at 1080p, in terms of aliasing/shimmering/filtering, aren't solved by a switch over to 4K, and that's to say nothing of 4K display adoption rate relative to the mainstream.

 

[AndyMoogle]

Why are we stuck? Developer could easily render at a resolution between 1080p and 4K and that image would be either downscaled to 1080p (providing quality AA) or upscaled to 4K. It's not necessarily an either/or thing when talking 1080p and 4K resolutions.

The problem is that anything between 1080p and 4K will look blurrier than 1080p on a 4K screen.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

Scorpio isn't powerful enough to do much more than Xbox One fidelity at 4K. That's not really worth it, imo. I'd much rather have them go for 1080p 60 fps and higher fidelity for all games. Take a look at The Witcher 3 for example. It looks way better maxed out on PC at 1080p than what it looks like on PS4 and Xbox One. Having the Xbox One version in 4K would be kind of stupid.

Why not max out the single player games at higher than 1080p resolutions and upscale? Also, MP games will be locked at certain frame rates, so it's not like you'd improve a 30fps game to 60fps going from XB1 to Scorpio or PS4 to Neo. The next best thing is improving the resolution once you've exhausted other effects at the base console resolution.

The problem is that anything between 1080p and 4K will look blurrier than 1080p on a 4K screen.

Why would this be the case? Games are currently rendered below 1080p and scaled up all the time. Why is 4K any different?

 

[Scrawnton]

This just brings up the issue microsoft is going to have with the scorpio. Make the, roughly, same looking game on scoprio and xbox one with the exception of 4k vs 900p1080p, then developers are dissatisfied for 'wasting' the power of the scorpio. Or you let developers make 1080p games with way more bells and whistles and now you give people that did not upgrade a much worse experience, effectively making scoprio a new generation of consoles and the xbox one being the bad, bare bones, not even worth it version.

So its either the developers get satisfied, or the consumers, or they find a nice balance between the two.

 

[Proelite]

Quantum Break uses reconstructive rendering.

 

[Jedipottsy]

Why are we stuck? Developer could easily render at a resolution between 1080p and 4K and that image would be either downscaled to 1080p (providing quality AA) or upscaled to 4K. It's not necessarily an either/or thing when talking 1080p and 4K resolutions.

Resolutions between 1080 and 4k don't scale nicely, a decent AA solution would probably give better results without scaling artifacts. Not to say that it doesn't work, ie NVIDIA DSR wrosk with any resolution. I imagine we'll probably see both solutions used from different developers, probably more going for DSR as its easier to implement than a good AA solution.

 

[AndyMoogle]

4K is the biggest visual upgrade I have seen this gen aside from PBR.

People saying 1080p is fine, probably have not played 4K games on a nice display.

I doubt anyone would't want 4K sooner or later, but we are not there yet. Especially not for consoles.

Personally I'll rather play at 1080p with GSYNC/FreeSync at high framerates than 4K 30 fps.

 

[hymanator]

I'm gaming on a 150" projection at 1080p and I have to stand 4 feet from the screen to start noticing individual pixels/screen door effect. Is going from 1080p to 4K the same dramatic leap that 480i to 1080p was? It seems like complete overkill even on a large screen.

 

[clutch.as.it.gets.]

Thats my man and like he said 4k native would be an absolute waste of resources! 1080p + all the rest into greatly improved eye candy is the way to go!

 

[QuantumSquid]

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/176486

Here is a Bloodstained screenshot Durante posted. Showing the difference between 1080p and 4K. It is fairly significant. Notably a lot of the detail is being eaten up by LOD issues and the UE4 AA solution.

Now what many of those tweets propose is reprojecting a 1080p framebuffer to 2160p and doing postproc on that. Hopefully it should produce better results, but they'll never be as good as this. Lots of tiny details is definitely an area that benefits from 4K, even downsampled.

I couldn't tell the difference between those screenshots if they weren't placed side by side like that. I can tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps immediately. When you consider these images are going to be on large televisions viewed from a distance, I can't see that difference being a huge deal. I'll take 60fps over 4K any day.

 

[ShutterMunster]

I've been saying this forever, mainly to film and video pros since that's the field I'm in, spatial resolution is only important if you don't have enough of it. For console players, the resources you'd spend on 4K simply aren't worth it. Players would benefit more from improvements to temporal resolution and HDR. If you're playing on PC, you're probably sitting very close to your display and the improvements from massive spatial resolution jumps will be more apparent.

 

[Chubzdoomer]

Could someone explain to me why everyone is so hellbent on making the ridiculous leap from 1080p to 4K, when the next logical step is 1440p? Even the monstrous GTX 1080 (for PC) can't maintain 60 FPS at 4K in every game.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

I've been saying this forever, mainly to film and video pros since that's the field I'm in, spatial resolution is only important if you don't have enough of it. For console players, the resources you'd spend on 4K simply aren't worth it. Players would benefit more from improvements to temporal resolution and HDR. If you're playing on PC, you're probably sitting very close to your display and the improvements from massive spatial resolution jumps will be more apparent.

Most 4K/HDR televisions out there are very large screens. I think those people will see the difference quite easily. That's the crowd this console seems to be targeting (at least early on), so I think greater than 1080p resolutions make sense for sure.

Could someone explain to me why everyone is so hellbent on making the ridiculous leap from 1080p to 4K, when the next logical step is 1440p? Even the monstrous GTX 1080 (for PC) can't maintain 60 FPS at 4K in every game.

Because 1440p TVs aren't a thing. I still think that resolution or something similar will be used and upscaled quite a bit, though.

 

[Horsemama1956]

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/176486

Here is a Bloodstained screenshot Durante posted. Showing the difference between 1080p and 4K. It is fairly significant. Notably a lot of the detail is being eaten up by LOD issues and the UE4 AA solution.

Now what many of those tweets propose is reprojecting a 1080p framebuffer to 2160p and doing postproc on that. Hopefully it should produce better results, but they'll never be as good as this. Lots of tiny details is definitely an area that benefits from 4K, even downsampled.

The only difference is less jaggies and a higher resolution screen might be bigger. Personally don't find games look much better at higher resolutions beyond 1080P. Would rather they continue with 1080/1440 and make much better quality displays. PQ always trumps resolution and most consumer monitors are junk.

 

[aeolist]

I don't know about what he is saying. Going from 1080p monitor to 2650x1600 I could turn off AA and framerate would go up and the picture would still look about as good. Maybe there is some secret sauce that makes AA more efficient than rendering pixels at 4k.

EDIT: objects and world detail were much better going to the higher resolution. I don't see any need to use AA and sacrifice lots of detail.

1080p is about 2 million pixels, 1440p is about 3.7 million.

4K is 8.3 million. it is a massive jump that console hardware won't be able to really get a grip on for years. hell, last gen was the first "HD" generation but a lot of games 8-9 years later are still running sub-1080p resolutions.

 

[Herp Derpington]

MS has already said developers can use the power however they see fit. 1080p with greater effects and detail? that's cool, they just need to plan ahead so the game can run without all those extras on the X1 and X1S. There is no 4k mandate.

I think this can't be made clear enough. Aside from some pushy publisher demanding 4K I think we're going to have the ability to get what we expected from the One and PS4 to begin with. Super high quality 1080p. I can't wait.

 

[AndyMoogle]

Could someone explain to me why everyone is so hellbent on making the ridiculous leap from 1080p to 4K, when the next logical step is 1440p? Even the monstrous GTX 1080 (for PC) can't maintain 60 FPS at 4K in every game.

Because TVs come in 1080p or 4K, and 4K is the new thing. 1080p upscales nicely to 4K as well thanks to an even 4 time the pixels.

 

[ShutterMunster]

Could someone explain to me why everyone is so hellbent on making the ridiculous leap from 1080p to 4K, when the next logical step is 1440p? Even the monstrous GTX 1080 (for PC) can't maintain 60 FPS at 4K in every game.

Does this really need to be explained? Several other industries that directly relate to gaming are jumping to 4K. It is the current cinema standard, it is a part of the new TV standard, and it's slowly making its way to smartphones, tablets, and monitors. It has already been decided that 4K is the next thing.

Most 4K/HDR televisions out there are very large screens. I think those people will see the difference quite easily. That's the crowd this console seems to be targeting (at least early on), so I think greater than 1080p resolutions make sense for sure.

And that has little to do with the resolution aspect of that combo.

 

[Tatsumi Oga]

Good thing developers won't be forced to only go for 4K then. They can do whatever they want with the power......

 

[Chubzdoomer]

Because TVs come in 1080p or 4K, and 4K is the new thing. 1080p upscales nicely to 4K as well thanks to an even 4 time the pixels.

Ah, makes sense. I'm not a TV guy (do literally everything via PC/monitor) so I wasn't aware the choices were just 1080p or 4K. To me that seems silly.

Does this really need to be explained?

If it didn't, I wouldn't have asked.

 

[Falchion]

I sit really close to my TV so I'd be able to tell the difference but that being said I'm fine with greater detail in 1080p.

 

[Horsemama1956]

Does this really need to be explained? Several other industries that directly relate to gaming are jumping to 4K. It is the current cinema standard, it is a part of the new TV standard, and it's slowly making its way to smartphones, tablets, and monitors. It has already been decided that 4K is the next thing.

Lol, for sales, not because it's better. They needed to get people to buy new TVs and shit.

 

[ShutterMunster]

Lol, for sales, not because it's better. They needed to get people to buy new TVs and shit.

I'm not sure what your point is here. Businesses want to make money, water is wet, the world keeps spinning. 4K is better than 1080p that isn't really up for debate.

 

[Samurai G0SU]

The time of scaling engines will become the norm! WATCH!!!

 

[AndyMoogle]

Ah, makes sense. I'm not a TV guy (do literally everything via PC/monitor) so I wasn't aware the choices were just 1080p or 4K. To me that seems silly.

It's actually not silly at all. It will be cheaper to manufacture than 1440p for larger screens, and, like I said, 1080p content will scale nicely to 4K. It's a much better idea to jump straight to 4K for video content.

 

[RedRum]

Why not 1080p and 4K. It would be nice to push it to the limit. I'd like to see that.

 

[kingwingin]

eventually you will have to jump to 4k. Id say waste the resources now to set the standard

 

[cw_sasuke]

Yeah i would rather have Uncharted 4 graphics in 1080p then Uncharted 3 graphics in 4K. No Brainer.

 

[farisr]

It stuck out to me that Andrew House didn't use 4K as a selling point in his last statement about the Neo, but instead said that games will "play an awful lot prettier."

It's possible he just didn't want to unveil a marketing pitch early, but that might have also been the feedback they got from developers once they got their hands on the hardware.

Hmmm... If the specs that we have for neo are final, things would get real "interesting" if MS tries to push devs to do 4k as much as they can, while Sony advised devs to stick to 1080p but add bells and whistles that are absent from the 4k version. And by interesting, I mean I will not be looking forward to the console wars and comparison topics.

I reckon it's basically a dream scenario for digital foundry though, LOL.

 

[AndyMoogle]

eventually you will have to jump to 4k. Id say waste the resources now to set the standard

For some games it will make perfect sense to choose 4K. Like Bloodstained for example. Simpler graphics from a smaller dev. For Assassins Creed, Battlefield, Call of Duty etc? I'd say it's a much better idea to try and aim for 1080p60 with much higher fidelity that is already there in the PC version anyway.

 

[Nirolak]

Hmmm... If the specs that we have for neo are final, things would get real "interesting" if MS tries to push devs to do 4k as much as they can, while Sony advised devs to stick to 1080p but add bells and whistles that are absent from the 4k version. And by interesting, I mean I will not be looking forward to the console wars and comparison topics.

I reckon it's basically a dream scenario for digital foundry though, LOL.

Microsoft already said developers can do what they want.

 

[presagetogood]

Anybody who stuck to the claim that MS would force 4k resolutions on Scorpio wasn't paying attention to Halo 5, all the Forza series, Sunset Overdrive, Quantum Break, and every other exclusive from MS that favored tight control and gameplay and unquestionably solid framerates over outright resolution.

 

[Reallink]

Ah the ole Joe Bob's beer couch being 15 feet from his 40" Hisense argument. Sounds like 2013 MS trying to justify the Xbox 720 One. Lets strive to cater to the lowest common denominator. Please implement dat black crush pop and bassakwards gamma to make it look good on all those Walmart Black Friday special TV's too plz.

 

[scitek]

Even home theater enthusiasts agree that 4K by itself isn't that much of an upgrade. It's the HDR and other things that come with it that make the difference worthwhile. I'd take 1080p/60fps with HDR over just the resolution upgrade 4K provides.

 

[SmoothRunningGun]

4k is easier to market.

 

[AndyMoogle]

Even home theater enthusiasts agree that 4K by itself isn't that much of an upgrade. It's the HDR and other things that come with it that make the difference worthwhile. I'd take 1080p/60fps with HDR over just the resolution upgrade 4K provides.

That's for video though. Games are very different.

 

[Trup1aya]

Hopefully this means that he and other developers will spend their efforts making 1080p games prettier.

Since that appears to be an option to them.

 

[Samurai G0SU]

Any devs comment on HDR!? Wouldn't that also be a gain?

 

[Nabbis]

4k is easier to market.

To who? On one hand you have Gaf telling you that graphics don't matter in terms of overall sales and on the other hand we core gamers know that it's(Scorpio 4k thingy) mostly bullshit.

 

[farisr]

Microsoft already said developers can do what they want.

Oh I know it's not required, what I was saying was MS advising or saying "try to do 4k if you can" or incentivize them in some way to hit 4k so they have that bullet point to market with.

It was just a hypothetical scenario. I don't think it's likely, but MS has surprised me before with some of their decisions.

 

[Tunavi]

1080/60 fps gets me more excited than 4k

 

[Vipu]

Why not 4k res and 144fps like on pc soon... Oh nevermind