• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Marvel's The Defenders *SPOILER THREAD* |OT| Super Friends - August 18th on Netflix

SkylineRKR

Member
Finished up the entire season. I didn't think it was a great show, but it was still fun to watch.

Here are my main criticisms.

I didn't think The Hand were compelling villains in Daredevil S2 and Iron Fist S1. And I didn't find them to be compelling villains in The Defenders either. Alexandra barely did anything for the entire show, and it felt like a big waste of Sigourney Weaver.

Also, the show failed to convince me that Elektra (The Black Sky) was ever much of a weapon/threat. Even Jessica Jones, who isn't a trained fighter like Daredevil and Iron Fist, was still able to put up a good fight against "The Black Sky".

I agree with most of this, but I liked the show regardless. Its not better than Daredevil, but it was more fun than the other 3.

The Black Sky was weak from the start. Her weakness was immediately apparent. And she already got whooped by Jessica's car push. I kept wondering why they bothered to pour all their resources into her. But I guess Alexandra just wanted a daughter.
 
Just finished.

Decidedly average. Nonsensical plot. And the grand ending is that they bury the dragon bones? What? What stops the Hand from just digging it up again? Was it some mystical seal that hid the bones, or encased them?

The original plan had them killing all the fingers of The Hand in the explosion. Presumably others don't know how to use the resurrection chamber.

Why not use his dumb glowing hand to reseal it perhaps?

They pretty much explain that he doesn't know anything about that stuff.


Jessica Jones and Daredevil carry the show.

I like Mike Colter, but yep.

Everything Iron Fist is still terrible. The actors are bad and carry their stink into all the scenes they're in. And that's probably what drags down this entire show - how central all the Iron Fist crap is.

Bakuto was probably the worst actor in this whole thing. Nothing about that guy was convincing or intimidating. Finn still frequently came across as a creepy crazy guy but at least he was on the sidelines for most of the series. Honestly, it would have been way better if they just wrote a quick scene of "after his brief but tragic sacrifice, the power of the Iron Fist is trapped in Colleen's sword, as her samurai grandfather was also secretly a swordsmith from K'un L'un. He was never seen again."

I'm surprised they didn't start a Danny/misty romance in this.

Do those actors strike you as having any possible chemistry whatsoever?
 

SpaceWolf

Banned
Misty and Danny would be so incompatible in this universe. Misty is a ridiculously driven adult woman. Danny is like a confused twelve year old boy.
 

Nyanmaruz

Member
Misty and Danny would be so incompatible in this universe. Misty is a ridiculous driven adult woman. Danny is like a confused twelve year old boy.
Exactly, it's really hard to imagine how Danny/Misty would work in this universe. Why the hell would Misty fall for someone like that.
 

chaos789

Banned
So I assume DD Season 3 will be Fisk getting out of prison and figuring out who DD really is and hiring an assassin (Bullseye) to go after him and in the conflict Karen gets killed by Bullseye.
 
So I assume DD Season 3 will be Fisk getting out of prison and figuring out who DD really is and hiring an assassin (Bullseye) to go after him and in the conflict Karen gets killed by Bullseye.
That would be awesome.

Just less of this mystical mumbo jumbo.
 

SpaceWolf

Banned
So I assume DD Season 3 will be Fisk getting out of prison and figuring out who DD really is and hiring an assassin (Bullseye) to go after him and in the conflict Karen gets killed by Bullseye.

It's going to be the Born Again arc. Daredevil Season 2 hinted at this extremely strongly, this just confirmed it.

I'm just confused why they'd take the nun stuff out of its natural placement in that arc, and place it here. It's a hugely pivotal moment that's vital for Matt's emotional and spiritual resurrection....but now they're going to use it to kickstart Season 3? Very strange.
 

Nokagi

Unconfirmed Member
Show was kinda a mess but it was still rather enjoyable seeing these characters interacting with each other.
 
Why was this so boring.

Elektra and Bakuto were literally brought back to life to rehash past conflicts.
Alexandra had no purpose other than bringing back Elektra.
Gao remains unclear on motivations and goals, her mystique has worn thin.
Jessica Jones and Luke Cage had extremely weak plot to justify their existence in the story, and both experienced no character development.
Danny...
 

Violater

Member
The only saving grace of this season was the Jessica / Matt interactions everything else was boring.
Even the fight choreography felt off.
 

Pkaz01

Member
The second was that TV is a visual medium. STOP OVER EXPLAINING or TALKING. There is way too much dialogue and it makes the secondary character feel really stupid.
So spot on, especially when it seemed like every character had to get their line in upon figuring something out. I wanted to slap iron fist in that scene where Stick was telling him his hand could be a key to opening something.
 

Clegg

Member
I thought she was fine here, even somewhat supportive of Matt throughout the story. What made her annoying for you?
It's her unwillingness to accept what it is Matt is doing and his reasons for doing it. Foggy is the same although he grudgingly accepts that it's something Matt needs to do.

This is the first chance to see the two interact since he told her he was Daredevil so maybe things will pick up in S3.
 

Kuro

Member
I'm starting to find less and less reasons to keep Netflix. Show was so boring. The only series I enjoyed were Daredevil and the first half of Luke Cage.
 

WarRock

Member
lol I was thinking the same thing at that part

Also I meant to ask as I have never read the comics.

Does Dany introduce himself as "The Immortal Iron Fist" there?

So cringeworthy

3713162-immortal_iron_fist__002_006.jpg


Yes, he is a corny dude
 
I'll ask again, why Bokuto wasn't injured after being hit by god knows how many bullets from Misty?

Dude kept walking like the T-2000.
 

Theorry

Member
Finished it. Was oke overall. Still had moments it dragged on. Wich was a shame. Was hoping from some quick pace season because of the 8 episodes instead of 13. But they still managed to do it. So that sucked. For rest everyone was pretty cool. But Danny was still annoying. Also a shame it took 8 episodes to finally show Jessica's her power.
Cave scene with the Wu Tang Clan? music was the best overall. Wasnt that difficult tho as there werent that many great scenes.

About the end. They shouldnt have showed Matt. Felt abit weird. Should have kept him "dead" for seasons for the other shows and then bring him back for DD season 3.

Rating of the shows for now for me.

DD1
JJ
DD2
Defenders
Luke Cage
Iron Fist.
 

diunxx

Member
Jesus Danny Rand was complete and utter shit in here, I thought without scott Buck they would do a better job with him but I was mistaken, holy crap what a shit character.

"You are the dumbest Iron Fist yet" best line of the show.
 

OmegaFax

Member
The Defenders felt forced and bone headed. I went back and started rewatching episodes.

-There's barely a memorable soundtrack to this entire series. I think at one point they started playing Luke Cage music when Iron Fist started a fight scene in the last one or two episodes. I think the people mixing the audio didn't give a shit at this point.

-The colors. I get that they used distinctive color hues to signify different character's scenes but it felt disjointed. In places, it felt too obvious and the show was so evenly cut between the characters that it never felt cohesive and more an arbitrary.

-The actor playing Iron Fist is horribly miscast. I was hoping we would see an Iron Fist that used two glowing fists like the Iron Fist we saw in the old war footage in the Iron Fist miniseries. Daredevil pretty much bests him in hand to hand combat.

-The secondary characters all being forced into the same room in the police station because otherwise they wouldn't meet or interact. This entire thing was the embodiment of either not giving a shit about writing any logical ways for these characters to meet.

-Even the first meeting between the Defenders was borderline convenient.

-I don't even think the writers had any confidence in writing for Rand or the actor properly executing it. The logic fell off the cliff when they wanted to tie up Rand. Iron Fist was fucking useless.

-Special effects looked even more budgety than the average Agents of Shield episode. Even with the condensed 8 episodes vs. the 12 or 13 from other series, there were places (like the building exploding at the end) where they looked like they ran out of money.

-This of all Netflix series needed 12 or 13 episodes to flesh out the characters, their motivations, the Hand, and the overall plot. Instead we get "lite" versions of the Netflix characters ... we see Luke in prison and Harlem, Jessica doing one case, Matt doing a case, and Danny needing to schedule an appointment with the completely absent Meachums.

-Electra/Black Sky felt like a half-assed Winter Soldier with a drastic jump in personality in the last episode.
 

EYEL1NER

Member
I thought it was really lame that they hyped up Murakami but then he just ended up being a jobber.
Yeah, I was expecting some cool shit from him, and he wound up being a disappointment. His weapon of choice is a nightstick with a blade in the bottom of it?



Now that I'm several hours out from having watched the ending, I guess I'm decided on where I'd place it in rankings:
DD S1 = JJ > DD S2 > Defenders > Luke > Iron Fist
That is taking the seasons as a whole thing. If I broke it down it would look a bit different:
DD S1 = JJ > 1st half of DD S2 > Defenders = 1st half of Luke Cage > Iron Fist > 2nd half of DD S2 = 2nd half of Luke Cage

I felt like this was pretty average. It started off with two boring episodes, picked up and got hype af, and then slowed down at episode 7 and had a rushed ending (that somehow also felt like it took too long in parts, due to how much talking and explaining was going on). The fights started off pretty good but got worse at the end, when the cuts and lighting became garbage. I think that I might have preferred it to have been the regular episode length rather than 8, even though things slow down in some of the season midway though.

JJ was great, even though her power level was all over the place. I don't have anything bad to say about Luke, but can't think of anything great from the series either, besides his interactions with Danny. Danny was an improvement, still a goof but I thought he played off of everyone else like Cage and JJ well (fights were better shot but he still doesn't feel powerful/skilled enough). Charlie Cox still did a great job as Matt but I'm so tired of "bad thing happens to hero, hero quits being hero" so the beginning was a slog and then he turned into a dick with his lying and running off to fight Elektra on his own. Makes sense, given their history and all, but it was predictable and worn out. It was nice catching up with the supporting cast from each show but there was too much Colleen and Clare.

As for The Hand, well, we know what to expect from The Hand already. A bunch of goons with guns, apparently, or businessmen who know martial arts. Gao was good and Sowande was pretty cool too. The reveal of who The Fingers were and where they came from was cool and had me hyped, but then we got Bokuto again and Murakami ended up being a let-down. Alexandra started off good and mysterious but got worse as the show went on, and then she really didn't do anything at all other than talk. Elektra was pretty emotionless as The Black Sky and I was waiting for her to become "Elektra" again, but then she kind of snaps out of it and kills Alexandra and I didn't really get why? Did she rediscover who she was from sleeping in Matt's bed? Okay, I guess so, but she is bad and then she goes on to fight Matt still. She takes over the operation because she was dead before and is scared of dying again? Well why did she need to kill Alexandra and take over at all for that? I just didn't get her once she 'awoke' and the double-cross happened. In Iron Fist they talked about how bringing people back can fuck with their heads and stuff, like with Harold. Is that why she was bad after snapping out of it? They certainly didn't explain it very well. Maybe her motivations were clear to everyone else but if any of that is the explanation, it just didn't work for me.

I'm still a fan overall of Netflix Marvel. I'm still eagerly awaiting Punisher, JJ S2, DD S3, and even another season of Iron Fist (without Scott Buck in charge, of course. I believe the potential is there).
 

LotusHD

Banned
I mean, why not kill Alexandra? Basically tried to make Elektra her weapon/puppet and fed her lies about who she is, and we all know Elektra doesn't really hesitate to kill someone she doesn't like.
 

SpaceWolf

Banned
As some-one who just got around to finishing this show this afternoon, I thought I'd just jot down my over-all view on it:

PROS:

-I feel the central appeal of this show was always going to be finally getting to see these larger than life characters finally getting the opportunity to interact and bounce off one another, and largely, I felt that was something the show did really well here. For example, as a fan, it was a real thrill to see Jessica's noirish lifestyle colliding with Matt Murdock's more clean-cut approach to things, much as it was to see almost any other character combination come to life within the team. Scenes that showcased Luke and Danny quietly bonding, and Matt and Jessica getting to solve mysteries together were a lot of fun, and I felt they really added a lot of value to the show.
-Charlie Cox, Krysten Ritter and Mike Colter all did really good work in this series as their respective characters, with each of them delivering a handful of really stand-out moments. I especially enjoyed Mike Colter's work as Luke Cage in this. He can be a very charismatic performer, and I really like what he continues to do with the character.
-I thought the show really benefited from slimming down from the Netflix standard of 12 episodes to 8. It felt like there was far, far less monotonous padding than there has been in comparison to most of the other Marvel Netflix shows. As a result, this show made for a much breezier viewing experience and was far more streamlined and direct narratively, which I think was a big plus.
-I love the theme-tune for this show. I think it works really well as The Defenders main theme as a superhero group, whilst at the same time integrating the themes from the main four's respective shows. I'm also a really big fan of the show's rather colourful opening sequence as well.
-As a Daredevil fan, I liked that this series finally got the opportunity to showcase Matt acting like a competent lawyer for a change. I also really loved the scene with Matt giving a pep-talk to the kid in the wheelchair. That was a lovely character moment.

CONS:

-Sigourney Weaver was utterly, utterly wasted as "Alexandra", a character who basically spends her time standing around in rooms, delivering painfully cliche, expositional dialogue. Upon reading the show's wikipedia page today...
Weaver worked with the writers to avoid a cliche portrayal, specifically "terms like ‘ice queen’ that are often thrown at women who aren’t completely sympathetic.

S0i4siO.gif


There was nothing either remotely engaging or interesting about her as a character in her own right, nor did she exude any real sense of menace as the show's central villain. Undoubtedly the worst villain these shows have had, especially in comparison to the likes of The Kingpin and Kilgrave, and just a real wasted opportunity all round.

-Once again, as an antagonistic force, The Hand was both extremely underwhelming and utterly bewildering in regards to their tactics and goals. As an organization, their methods and motivations are so frustratingly vague, it's frankly impossible for us to develop any kind of strong instincts about them. I've also long gotten bored of Madame Gao as a character, and felt she had nothing to really offer in her story. Same thing with Bakuto, who much like in Iron Fist, proved to be as shallow a character as he was ultimately aimless. Hopefully however, this show has seen the end of The Hand for good in the Netflix-Verse. At least, I hope so.
-Although I felt his character benefited from being surrounded by characters who were far less willing to put up with his shit, Danny Rand stuff continues to be a character as weakly written as he is frustrating, continuing on Iron Fist's proven tradition of depicting Rand as a petulant, bewildered child who's gotten in far over his head.
-The final episode came across as very lazy and slap-dash, especially considering half of it revolved around the team standing around the foyer of an empty corporate building. The stuff with the elevator was flat-out bizzare (Luke volunteering Jessica to act as a distraction whilst he and Matt jumped out at The Hand's men) in addition to the prolonged fight-scene that was underscored by an ill-fitting rap song.

NITPICKS:

-Not a fan of the sequence where Matt Murdock basically attempting to strangle a restrained prisoner to death.
-The Hand were making themselves immortal by drinking the bone marrow taken from dragon skeletons? What?
-Claire never once acknowledging Matt until a very brief exchange in the final episode was extremely strange.
-So...Luke and Jessica wer never charged for kidnapping their lawyer after all? Why not?
-There were very few moments where The Defenders actually got to act like a cohesive team in this, instead mostly going off in pairs, before finally reuniting in the last moments of the final episode. I thought that was pretty disappointing.
-Disappointed to observe there were absolutely no wider MCU references in this show. Noted this in the MCU community thread, but it feels like these Netflix shows are becoming more and more isolated from the films.

Overall though, I had a lot of fun with this show and managed to finish it feeling relatively satisfied...although I can certainly recognize its many flaws (especially in regards to that extremely messy finale)

7/10.
 
Just binge watched the whole show. I had my doubts the first two episodes, but it picks up. Not too much fat here, the show didn't waste a lot of time getting from point A to B while still keep enough spotlight on the huge cast. It felt like watching the 4 shows at once. Even Danny is faithful to... his lack of character. Pretty good job, exceeded my expectations.

However, the special effects when the elevator drops are ass. I was wondering what the heck happened there, it was like watching a shitty syfy original or an episode of Doctor Who. Oh, and Elektra going rogue was a bad idea. Just not very interesting of a premise and it wasn't convincing at all.
 
Bye Felicia

Oh God what happened am I banned?

... Huh. Well I guess let's talk about this thing some more.

~

Does anybody else feel like if they'd cast a younger guy for Danny Rand then his naivete as a character would have seemed better as a character flaw and not a core element of this current Iron Fist? I get that in the comics he gets beaten down a lot in general (by other Iron Fists and Masters from K'un Lun even), but as one of the titular Defenders, seeing this guy who is physically around the same age as the others act way younger and more impulsive seemed strange.

It just feels like with Netflix you can see every dollar they DIDN'T spend up there on the screen.

Oh God, basically every shot down the elevator shaft, like that one guy falling down to his death or the shot of Jessica holding the elevator cable and telling Luke and Rand to get up there. Ohhh God. XD
 

hobozero

Member
Watching the scene with the building collapsing, while the major characters stand, oh, about 50 feet away from it, I was struck by a realization. Watching them try (and, in Danny's case, fail) to emote to the off-screen collapse I thought: This is it. This is as low a budget as you can possibly devote to a television show. Netflix is basically Fan-film tier now.

Here's what kills me - look at what you can do with passion and no money:

The Raid - budget $1.1 million. Amazing, unmatched fight choreography. Gripping performances. Somehow manages to be visually interesting even though it's shot inside the fakest apartment building since Laverne & Shirley.

El Mariachi - $7,000! Robert Rodruigez had his crew stay in a mental institution to raise funds for the damn movie! Set new benchmarks in action films and gunplay. Launched the director's career. $7,000!!!

Hire a hungry writer/director who actually WANTS to make MCU shows for Netflix. Jesus, I don't know, give one to Kevin Fucking Smith, even (or, better, Marc Bernandin). People have made such incredible art with shoestring budgets, how is Netflix fucking this up. There are so many great writers out there who can't get work - how does this keep happening...

It just feels like with Netflix you can see every dollar they DIDN'T spend up there on the screen.
 

LotusHD

Banned
The more I think about it, the more disappointed I am with Alexandra, I genuinely don't know how she became the leader.

Also why the hell didn't she fight anyone? Literally the only time she showed any prowess was when she quickly handled Elektra. Everyone else got to get their hands dirty. And that includes Gao, whose actress is much older than Sig, so can't use age for an excuse either. I think it was said that "getting her hands dirty" isn't really her thing, but it comes across as being a cop-out. The show keeps trying to make her this super intimidating figure, but it's just not working at all, especially when Elektra was doing all the work to begin with.

In the end, she got betrayed, but damn, she didn't leave a good impression before dying off like Cottonmouth did.
 

hobozero

Member
The more I think about it, the more disappointed I am with Alexandra, I genuinely don't know how she became the leader.

Also why the hell didn't she fight anyone? Literally the only time she showed any prowess was when she quickly handled Elektra. Everyone else got to get their hands dirty. And that includes Gao, whose actress is much older than Sig, so can't use age for an excuse either. I think it was said that "getting her hands dirty" isn't really her thing, but it comes across as being a cop-out. The show keeps trying to make her this super intimidating figure, but it's just not working at all, especially when Elektra was doing all the work to begin with.

To be fair, I blame the writers. I think Weaver did the best she possibly could with everything she was given. I mean, some scenes are basically in the script as "Alexandra listens to phonograph and is sad".

We should bring back the Hollywood black list. Get Trumbo off there and get some of these Netflix writers in the book...
 

SpaceWolf

Banned
So why weren't the group eventually arrested for blowing up a skyscraper, or punching a hole out of the local police precinct again?
 
I'll ask again, why Bokuto wasn't injured after being hit by god knows how many bullets from Misty?

Dude kept walking like the T-2000.

The Hand are only vulnerable to sai, katana, fists, cars, billy clubs, kicks, fire and being shoved by nurses. Point-blank bullets? Those they laugh off.
 
So why weren't the group eventually arrested for blowing up a skyscraper, or punching a hole out of the local police precinct again?

I guess we're meant to believe that the cops realized what a huge, stoppable threat the Hand were, and that their actions were for the greater good. They had 30 lightly armed guys!
 

Grizzlyjin

Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
Watching the scene with the building collapsing, while the major characters stand, oh, about 50 feet away from it, I was struck by a realization. Watching them try (and, in Danny's case, fail) to emote to the off-screen collapse I thought: This is it. This is as low a budget as you can possibly devote to a television show. Netflix is basically Fan-film tier now.

I'm genuinely curious where the budget for these shows is going. They have almost no special effects, no big car or motorcycle stunts, limited amount of fights, poor location scouting, bare bones sets, and scrapped together costumes (except for Daredevil, but other cast members have ill-fitting suits and wardrobe). They were able to afford Jessica pushing a car through the Chinese restaurant...except they didn't even show that, and it was done poorly.

And it really isn't hyperbolic to say it's fan film level work because that Diamondback power suit in Luke Cage was ridiculously bad.
 
I think if people didn't like Luke, Jessica, or Danny, then they're not going to like the show. Matt can't carry the show alone, and the Hand is pushed aside to establish Alexandra and Electra as villains (which they are not very good).

With the curtains pulled aside, there wasn't really much behind Madame Gao and Bokuto in the Hand. You think there's worse to come watching their individual series but Alexandra is seen as compromised and unable to effectively to do her job. Electra is supposed to the biggest threat but it's just unconvincing to believe she's supposed to take on all four of them or even become motivated to. If it wasn't for the Hand's unexplained force powers and Electra's random super strength, I couldn't see why DD or Iron Fist could just not have gone in there themselves.
 
Top Bottom