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[Mahonay]

Shame on the others that were there for not stepping in to stop that behavior. What an absolute scumbag. I'm not a particularly aggressive person but I don't think I could sit there with out yelling at him to shut his mouth.

This appears to be an individual that does interact with women very often. Someone should find a way to send this video to his mother and see how he feels about this kind of "funning around" afterward.

 

[Gattsu25]

Could very well be. Not saying it isn't. Just pointing out why the stream chat is important in this case.

It isn't, though. It's entirely irrelevant and always has been.

He was the one that decided to read the easily ignored suggestions and then sexually harass someone based on anonymous postings on the internets.

If he ignored those comments the situation would have ended right there. The blame lies solely with him.

Every time I read a comment that tries to make the argument of "she went along with it so this kind of treatment is okay" my life is tilted. How can you possibly say this? If someone is getting bullied and they try to laugh it off it's okay? Shit, kids in high school even defend their bullies sometimes to try and fit in. You have got to be kidding me. She says it wasn't okay, so it's not okay.

100% agreed with this. That line of reasoning is absurd and it was shocking to hear it stated in this thread.

 

[iammeiam]

He wasn't harassing her to satiate some sort of need. He was doing it because he thought it would entertain the viewers, and didn't see it as harassment because of the environment he plays in or the kind of people he hangs around with. He didn't know Super_Yan personally before this show, and he shouldn't have assumed she would be okay with it.

Pretty much sums up in one quote why people are seeing this as a larger problem with the community, really. Playing up to trolls isn't really a valid extenuating circumstance for acting like a tool, and that it's come up repeatedly as context doesn't present a great front.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

The point is that its not ALL of his fault. A large portion is, but there are other factors that play a large role as well.

edit
That is why it is important to know the WHOLE situation rather than focus on a particular event and ignore the rest.

No, it's still entirely his fault. That he was reading shit off a screen absolves him of literally nothing.

 

[boredJonathan]

The point is that its not ALL of his fault. A large portion is, but there are other factors that play a large role as well.

edit
That is why it is important to know the WHOLE situation rather than focus on a particular event and ignore the rest.

You know the old saying? "If all your friends jumped off a bridge, would you?"

He is solely to blame for his actions here. He decided to read the chat questions aloud. He continued asking them and escalating them. Perhaps, as discussed above, he was ignorant about the ramifications (although even then, I find that hard to believe. There are basic social norms that he crossed and I can't imagine he didn't know what he was saying was crossing those lines), but he alone read those questions.

The point is ALL of this is his fault.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Could very well be. Not saying it isn't. Just pointing out why the stream chat is important in this case.

Stream chat is not important. It's just an easy way to deflect attention from what is important: deplorable behavior on the part of a visible member of the community, and what appears to be a bizarre circling of the wagons to fight against the reactions of those rightfully indignant of the situation.

 

[Ragingnight]

You know the old saying? "If all your friends jumped off a bridge, would you?"

He is solely to blame for his actions here. He decided to read the chat questions aloud. He continued asking them and escalating them. Perhaps, as discussed above, he was ignorant about the ramifications (although even then, I find that hard to believe. There are basic social norms that he crossed and I can't imagine he didn't know what he was saying was crossing those lines), but he alone read those questions.

The point is ALL of this is his fault.

so wait. Please correct me if I'm wrong. For example with that logic; if I tell somebody to go shoot up a school and that imaginary person does it. I'm not at fault because I had no direct involvement of the particular action?

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

so wait. Please correct me if I'm wrong. For example with that logic; if I tell somebody to go shoot up a school and that imaginary person does it. I'm not at fault because I had no direct involvement of the particular action?

....correct?

Is this a trick question?

 

[freenudemacusers]

so wait. Please correct me if I'm wrong. For example with that logic; if I tell somebody to go shoot up a school and that imaginary person does it. I'm not at fault because I had no direct involvement of the particular action?

you are making terrible arguments in this thread.

 

[sephi22]

so wait. Please correct me if I'm wrong. For example with that logic; if I tell somebody to go shoot up a school and that imaginary person does it. I'm not at fault because I had no direct involvement of the particular action?

I'm not in the torches and pitchforks brigade and even I think this is a bad example

 

[iammeiam]

so wait. Please correct me if I'm wrong. For example with that logic; if I tell somebody to go shoot up a school and that imaginary person does it. I'm not at fault because I had no direct involvement of the particular action?

If you encourage somebody to go shoot up a school, you're a horrible person and people would rightly call you out on it.

If somebody follows through, though? That's on them, and anybody insisting it's important to remember Ragingnight totally said to do it is going to be rightfully disregarded as insane.

(unless in this scenario you are secretly Lelouch. Then it's all your fault. But you're probably not.)

 

[Raonak]

The point is that its not ALL of his fault. A large portion is, but there are other factors that play a large role as well.

edit
That is why it is important to know the WHOLE situation rather than focus on a particular event and ignore the rest.

Any reasonable person would've known that the chat was being stupid. There was external stimuli, but he still was the one who did it.
And judging by how he defended it, he totally believes what he did was right.
all the blame should rightfully go to him for being an idiot.

 

[Ragingnight]

If you encourage somebody to go shoot up a school, you're a horrible person and people would rightly call you out on it.

If somebody follows through, though? That's on them, and anybody insisting it's important to remember Ragingnight totally said to do it is going to be rightfully disregarded as insane.

but would it be a crazy thought that both the instigator and the initiator are at fault rather than just the initiator?

 

[boredJonathan]

so wait. Please correct me if I'm wrong. For example with that logic; if I tell somebody to go shoot up a school and that imaginary person does it. I'm not at fault because I had no direct involvement of the particular action?

If you encourage somebody to go shoot up a school, you're a horrible person and people would rightly call you out on it.

If somebody follows through, though? That's on them, and anybody insisting it's important to remember Ragingnight totally said to do it is going to be rightfully disregarded as insane.

(unless in this scenario you are secretly Lelouch. Then it's all your fault. But you're probably not.)

Could not have said it better myself.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

but would it be a crazy thought that both the instigator and the initiator are at fault rather than just the initiator?

Yes, it would be a crazy thought. I thought we covered this already.

 

[def sim]

That is one bold strawman.

 

[Kintaro]

I have some thoughts concerning "stream monsters." In every tourney, we see the players and commentators interacting and talking directly with the stream monsters. Encouraging them to do things like Floe Faces and such. When you directly interface with them in such a way, these stream monsters become part of the fighting game community. I don't think there is any way around that now. So when stream monsters start trolling and saying ignorant shit and you continue to interact with them, you can't just brush them off and claim they're not part of the community any more because they're trolling. Hell, the players/commentators actively troll all the time.

So, if Aria was reading from the stream and asking dumb ass questions from the stream, he has made them part of the community. This is starting to become a problem as well. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can go asking stream monsters to view the stream so you can make money on commercials and sponsorships then shun them when they act a fool.

For better or worse, stream monsters have become a part of the FGC. A part they're also going to have to deal with.

 

[GitarooMan]

I find Capcom's very muted reaction pretty disappointing, classic PR legalese. Clearly unprepared for the (IMO correct) vigorous reaction against this and seemingly unwilling to take a strong stand against the behavior, certainly has lowered my opinion of their fighting game community personnel.

 

[Ragingnight]

Meh I guess I see things differently. I rather have chat heavily moderated after this debacle and obviously Aris properly dealt with by the parties involved.

 

[Mahonay]

I find Capcom's very muted reaction pretty disappointing, classic PR legalese. Clearly unprepared for the (IMO correct) vigorous reaction against this and seemingly unwilling to take a strong stand against the behavior, certainly has lowered my opinion of their fighting game community personnel.

Absolutely, me too.

 

[SteveWinwood]

I don't understand why it matters what the chat says at all. If it's stupid shit (which of course it is because it's the internet) then it should get ignored. The last thing you should do is acknowledge it.

Or actually reading, it seems it's been covered pretty well already.

 

[Busaiku]

I find Capcom's very muted reaction pretty disappointing, classic PR legalese. Clearly unprepared for the (IMO correct) vigorous reaction against this and seemingly unwilling to take a strong stand against the behavior, certainly has lowered my opinion of their fighting game community personnel.

Matt publicly apologized to her on stream, last night.
They admitted that they should not have let that happen and were sorry for her poor experience.

Miranda thought Capcom handled everything well.

 

[BeesEight]

Meh I guess I see things differently. I rather have chat heavily moderated after this debacle and obviously Aris properly dealt with by the parties involved.

The chat isn't in any position of authority over Aris. The blame for the situation lies squarely on his shoulders. The issue with that chat just demonstrates that these thoughts and feelings are spread out in more than one person in the community.

When I first started watching streams, I was really surprised they weren't moderated considering a lot of the stuff that goes on in them. But it's pretty common knowledge they're bad which gives Aris no excuse for listening to them.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

I don't understand why it matters what the chat says at all. If it's stupid shit (which of course it is because it's the internet) then it should get ignored. The last thing you should do is acknowledge it.

Or actually reading, it seems it's been covered pretty well already.

Sometimes, sometimes it can be useful to gauge if there are any lag issues, and usually when someone misses something on stream like someone setting the handicap you can pretty much guarantee someone will catch it.

90% of the chat is pretty worthless, though, mostly because a great deal of it is trolling.

 

[Mahonay]

Matt publicly apologized to her on stream, last night.
They admitted that they should not have let that happen and were sorry for her poor experience.

Miranda thought Capcom handled everything well.

Still shitty. Still unacceptable.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

I have some thoughts concerning "stream monsters." In every tourney, we see the players and commentators interacting and talking directly with the stream monsters. Encouraging them to do things like Floe Faces and such. When you directly interface with them in such a way, these stream monsters become part of the fighting game community. I don't think there is any way around that now. So when stream monsters start trolling and saying ignorant shit and you continue to interact with them, you can't just brush them off and claim they're not part of the community any more because they're trolling. Hell, the players/commentators actively troll all the time.

So, if Aria was reading from the stream and asking dumb ass questions from the stream, he has made them part of the community. This is starting to become a problem as well. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can go asking stream monsters to view the stream so you can make money on commercials and sponsorships then shun them when they act a fool.

For better or worse, stream monsters have become a part of the FGC. A part they're also going to have to deal with.

He's not making them apart of the community, they are the community. And it is no more of a problem than youtube comments are on youtube videos.

 

[krazen]

Stream monsters have NOTHING to do with this; they are a variable nobody can control just like the rest of the internet. You have your equivalent of stream monsters on blogs, on youtube, hell even in the Wall Street Journal comment section.

There is a world of difference between random a random comment on the internet aimed at your direction and your fellow competitor, sitting right next to you, who's supposed to be a coach! lol

I remember Aris making real life sports comparisons saying that the stands in any sporting event can be pretty rowdy and vicious but he missed the point; on the field there are strict rules of sportsmanship where if you break it you are immediately punished. Online trolls will always be online trolls in whatever form, to use that as an excuse for real life behavior to someones face..not buying it.

The stream monsters are a part of the community...even in Starcraft you are going to find *SOME* meanspirited shittalking on the internet in forums, etc. But that behavior should not bleed over into the actual competition where competitors are made to feel like crap because of their ethnic/religious/sexual makeup.

And, let me get it out of the way, some of the trashtalking can be fun and insightful, the problem is that a vocal minority of t the community don't have the common sense to know when to quit, and its unfortunate that some aren't taking them to task so hopefully they get it. Let it slide, it just gets worse *shrug*

 

[Ultrabum]

Still shitty. Still unacceptable.

In your opinion, what, if anything, can make it right?

 

[SteveWinwood]

Sometimes, sometimes it can be useful to gauge if there are any lag issues, and usually when someone misses something on stream like someone setting the handicap you can pretty much guarantee someone will catch it.

90% of the chat is pretty worthless, though, mostly because a great deal of it is trolling.

Oh yeah it has a function. But when almost all of it is meme faces and OOOOOHHHHHH MMMMMYYYYYY GGGGGOOOOODDDDDDD I don't know why it matters what they were saying. It's certainly not a cop out for saying that someone told him to do it.

In the giant bomb chat people have some sort of accountability (they paid to be able to watch most live streams) and it's still terrible. Just people yelling and general trash.

 

[hamchan]

So is this Aris dude a big member of the FGC? Say, like how Day[9] and Tastosis are big members of the SC2 community, how does Aris compare?

 

[charlequin]

After stepping away from this thread for a bit to read around many places including the mega thread. The above really is important here, yeah Aris was out of line but (and I am ready for the hate) factoring in the stream chat, which I know we don't have, it sheds a lot of lite onto the whole issue.

This (and I'm picking on you here, but similar thoughts have been echoed elsewhere in the thread) is really mind-boggling.

When a person does something awful, disrespectful, hurtful, they are responsible for it. Having friends -- or worse, strangers -- goad them into it is not a defense; if anything, it speaks to their inability to stick to moral behavior even in a difficult situation.

People cope with negative attention in different ways. Some people try to play it off like it doesn't impact them and some people resort to self-deprecating humor to try and deflect the sting of the comments.

Yeah. Most people instinctively do this in a harassment situation -- because it's the safest and easiest way to avoid ratcheting things up further -- but it's easy to not think of that when you're watching a situation from the outside, I guess.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

Fighting game Community seems horrible from the outside.

 

[Reuenthal]

Seeing the terrible blaming the victim logic by some in this thread, I can't even imagine the kind of reactions against Miranda in the actual event.

 

[Ragingnight]

This (and I'm picking on you here, but similar thoughts have been echoed elsewhere in the thread) is really mind-boggling.

When a person does something awful, disrespectful, hurtful, they are responsible for it. Having friends -- or worse, strangers -- goad them into it is not a defense; if anything, it speaks to their inability to stick to moral behavior even in a difficult situation.
.

I don't think anybody is arguing that it is a defense at all.

 

[darkblade77]

Traditionally the FGC is something used to refer to actual participants and involved RL spectators at FG events. I'd say as a whole that the lines have started to blur a little(since several members do participate in stream chat in the best/worst ways), but these are still two separate entities IMO.

That is to say, 'stream monsters' are undoubtedly something unique to the fighting game community, but the term 'FGC' still conveys a meaning referring to people literally there/participating/supporting FG events.

 

[Ultrabum]

So is this Aris dude a big member of the FGC? Say, like how Day[9] and Tastosis are big members of the SC2 community, how does Aris compare?

I dunno, but Starcraft is cited by him as having no sex jokes or anything. That is simply not true, take a look at this video where Destiny compares baneling and zergling micro to rape.

NSFW because of rape analogy and cussing.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcQedw7R1zk

 

[Mahonay]

In your opinion, what, if anything, can make it right?

A lengthy written formal apology from both the organizers and Capcom. Something that actually sounds remotely like they are sincerely sorry for what happened to Miranda. Not the bare minimum apologies that I have seen so far. The reaction has been incredibly soft.

I don't know if he has or has not been, but Aris should be banned from playing in any Capcom tournaments for some length of time.

This is not just someone having "a poor experience" at an event. As an adult who takes this kind of thing seriously this is all absolutely egregious and needs to have an equal reaction to what has transpired. This was an organized event, not just a spout between friends. I think people need to focus on that part.

 

[sephi22]

So is this Aris dude a big member of the FGC? Say, like how Day[9] and Tastosis are big members of the SC2 community, how does Aris compare?

In the SC2 community, Aris would be the Age of Empires player.

There are various subdivisions in the FGC. The majority of the community plays Capcom games. Comparitively few people play Namco games. Aris can be considered as one of the reps for Namco games (Soul Calibur/Tekken). But every one knows the true Namco man is Markman. <3

 

[AAK]

I'm a fan of the content Aris produces on his site and such, but he is definitely guilty of the Miranda incident (and some others during EWGFriday streams).

However he apologized and he's still respected by other (sane) people in the community like Haunts, UltraDavid, Sp00ky so I don't personally believe he insidiously intended to cause harm to people. It's just a raw sense of humor where I believe he should be more sensible on when it is or isn't appropriate to unleash it.

But at the same time it was so confusing to gauge whether Miranda was or wasn't bothered by it. She was laughing it off during day 1 and when starslay3r came to her defense Miranda shoved her off calling her an idiot. Then 3 days later this fiasco happens. There's just a lot of stuff that happened off camera no one knows about.

 

[Zeliard]

In the SC2 community, Aris would be the Age of Empires player.

Haha nice edit

 

[charlequin]

I remember Aris making real life sports comparisons saying that the stands in any sporting event can be pretty rowdy and vicious but he missed the point; on the field there are strict rules of sportsmanship where if you break it you are immediately punished.

And I think it's worth noting that different sports have different models of "sportsmanship" -- some are pretty lenient with trash-talk and salty behavior while others are quite strict, but pretty much all of them have in common that sexual harassment, slurs, and other defamatory behavior are not acceptable under any circumstances.

I don't think anybody is arguing that it is a defense at all.

Several people in this thread have pretty straightforwardly listed the stream monsters as a mitigating factor, and that is appalling. Literally the only relevance the presence of troglodytic behavior in the stream chat could possibly have is to support the argument that there's a problem with fans who actually support this kind of behavior; there's nothing whatsoever about it that would make the behavior less unacceptable.

 

[7Th]

Why are people hating on the PA article? It's the most accurate according to the source.

 

[sephi22]

I don't know if he has or has not been, but Aris should be banned from playing in any Capcom tournaments for some length of time.

Aris doesn't play any Capcom games. He doesn't even show up to Capcom tourneys unless there's Tekken/Soul Calibur being played in the same tourney. He did play some MK AFAIK and he's still playing Tekken and SC V. He usually does commentary.

This goes to show why he was picked for this show. He was picked for his personality as he's got little to no 2D experience. Capcom knew what they were getting into

 

[thepotatoman]

I dunno, but Starcraft is cited by him as having no sex jokes or anything. That is simply not true, take a look at this video where Destiny compares baneling and zergling micro to rape.

NSFW because of rape analogy and cussing.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcQedw7R1zk

If i remember correctly, this lead to a whole lot of backlash in the community. Sure that moment had its defenders, but the fact that it became a big deal shows to me that it really isn't the norm.

 

[krazen]

I'm a fan of the content Aris produces on his site and such, but he is definitely guilty of the Miranda incident (and some others during EWGFriday streams).

However he apologized and he's still respected by other (sane) people in the community like haunts, UltraDavid, Sp00ky so I don't personally believe he insidiously intended to cause harm to people. It's just a raw sense of humor where I believe he should be more sensible on when it is or isn't appropriate to unleash it.

But at the same time it was so confusing to gauge whether Miranda was or wasn't bothered by it. She was laughing it off during day 1 and when starslay3r came to her defense Miranda shoved her off calling her an idiot. Then 3 days later this fiasco happens. There's just a lot of stuff that happened off camera

Like someone above pointed out, you can laugh it off and it still be offensive.

When Aris went on his super-rant and she voiced her opinion about how some of the things he said were offensive, it should have ended there...but everyone steamrolled over her opinion. Bringing up Starslay3r in the argument doesn't really prove anything because we don't know that situation (maybe she thought it was patronizing, maybe they have history together, etc). This line of thinking just buys into the 'She was cool with it' line of defense that people use when things of this nature occur. Even with his defenders, it seems the general consensus is that Aris was going a bit too far.

 

[Kintaro]

He's not making them apart of the community, they are the community. And it is no more of a problem than youtube comments are on youtube videos.

I was saying that in response to some comments said earlier in the thread about stream monsters not being the FGC. Which I found pretty silly.

However, if they are considered the community, then you're going to see more people painting the FGC with broader strokes.

Why are people hating on the PA article? It's the most accurate according to the source.

No clue. All I know is, making Penny Arcade has some pretty big implications because of the two PAX events.

 

[Ultrabum]

If i remember correctly, this lead to a whole lot of backlash in the community. Sure that moment had its defenders, but the fact that it became a big deal shows to me that it really isn't the norm.

It did lead to a backlash, especially between Destiny (the guy in the video) and Incontrol (another Progamer on team EG) on the webshow StateofTheGame.

But I think the ultimate conclusion was that is was OK, so long as the stream was rated M and everyone knew what they were getting into when they tuned into Destiny.

At least that's what I thought the conclusion was, I know that Incontrol disagrees with that among others.

 

[freenudemacusers]

I don't think anybody is arguing that it is a defense at all.

weird, since I'm pretty sure you said the stream spew was a factor in his behavior. how is that not some kind of defense, or a minimizing, of his culpability exactly?

 

[sephi22]

Why are people hating on the PA article? It's the most accurate according to the source.

No one answer this. We've already been through this in the X Assault thread. Its a trap.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

I was saying that in response to some comments said earlier in the thread about stream monsters not being the FGC. Which I found pretty silly.

However, if they are considered the community, then you're going to see more people painting the FGC with broader strokes.



No clue. All I know is, making Penny Arcade has some pretty big implications because of the two PAX events.

Oh I see, well they can paint all they want not much can be done unfortunately. FGC isn't immune the effects of Internet anonymity, just like any and every other web based community.