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Cross The Line - Sexual Assault... ok, maybe just Sexual Harassment!

T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
It did lead to a backlash, especially between Destiny (the guy in the video) and Incontrol (another Progamer on team EG) on the webshow StateofTheGame.

But I think the ultimate conclusion was that is was OK, so long as the stream was rated M and everyone knew what they were getting into when they tuned into Destiny.

At least that's what I thought the conclusion was, I know that Incontrol disagrees with that among others.

And now Destiny is basically a memory so it kind of doesn't matter. I don't even know if he streams anymore, but if he does, no one seems to talk about it anymore like they used to. Everyone is to focused on all the other streams of players that actually have a chance of winning tournaments, who don't make rape jokes as far as I know.
 

zlatko

Banned
So is this Aris dude a big member of the FGC? Say, like how Day[9] and Tastosis are big members of the SC2 community, how does Aris compare?

What's below a DApollo level? I mean less name recognition than probably even the guy who hosts some of the European tournament leagues? Has a british accent and has streamed with TLO sometimes. No clue what his name is. (Not totalbiscuit by the way)

Aris is known in the FGC, but the Tasteless/Artosis level beings would probably be people like Gootecks, Mike Ross, Spooky.

It's hard to do apples to apples on this from a community to community stand point.

If you are in the Tekken scene though you 99% chance know who he is. If you are in the FGC he stands out enough because of his appearance with the big ol beard. He's definitely more well known now after all this I bet.
 

Raonak

Banned
No one answer this. We've already been through this in the X Assault thread. Its a trap.

image.php
 
weird, since I'm pretty sure you said the stream spew was a factor in his behavior. how is that not some kind of defense, or a minimizing, of his culpability exactly?

I see it more as of an explanation of the action in question. As I said before, Aris is at fault for his actions. I'm just trying to show that there were factors that led him to do what he did and that is all. How you perceive the significance of the other factors is up to you. I'm not here trying to argue or defend Aris.
 
No one answer this. We've already been through this in the X Assault thread. Its a trap.

If you want to participate in the thread, participate in the thread, but don't do this. Saying stuff about how you can't say what you think because you'll be banned, or telling people not to talk about something because you think it's dangerous, is not really contributing to having a reasonable adult conversation here.
 

Ultrabum

Member
And now Destiny is basically a memory so it kind of doesn't matter. I don't even know if he streams anymore, but if he does, no one seems to talk about it anymore like they used to. Everyone is to focused on all the other streams of players that actually have a chance of winning tournaments, who don't make rape jokes as far as I know.

He's streaming right now, 2,000 viewers.
 

krazen

Member
I see it more as of an explanation of the action in question. As I said before, Aris is at fault for his actions. I'm just trying to show that there were factors that led him to do what he did and that is all.

Not to even be a nitpick, but even the term 'led him to do' reads as if you are removing some culpability.

He took the stream comments as a jumping point, but like you said, he is 100% at fault for his own actions
 

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I was saying that in response to some comments said earlier in the thread about stream monsters not being the FGC. Which I found pretty silly.
Am I misreading this or are you suggesting that other people should be responsible for the things joke characters say in stream chat?

Unless we're talking about those who are careless enough to encourage and parrot the things that joke characters say in stream chat, I don't really follow.
 

Zeliard

Member
Traditionally the FGC is something used to refer to actual participants and involved RL spectators at FG events. I'd say as a whole that the lines have started to blur a little(since several members do participate in stream chat in the best/worst ways), but these are still two separate entities IMO.

That is to say, 'stream monsters' are undoubtedly something unique to the fighting game community, but the term 'FGC' still conveys a meaning referring to people literally there/participating/supporting FG events.

That insularity is where part of the issue lies. If some of these guys have never had people tell them these fairly obvious things, or they act like they've never heard it, that's not a promising sign. They don't want to be viewed as "soft," and apparently respect towards women is soft, I guess. Insularity breeds a willingness to shun the norm, which is otherwise fine when it isn't harmful like this.
 

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
Am I misreading this or are you suggesting that other people should be responsible for the things joke characters say in stream chat?

That is, barring those who are careless enough to encourage and parrot the things that joke characters say in stream chat, of course.

No one is responsible for them. However, if you want to shut "stream monsters" out and get rid of that perception, is it not possible to disable stream chat? Do you believe this would cause tournament viewers to drop? Either that or they need to step up moderations big time.
 

sephi22

Member
If you want to participate in the thread, participate in the thread, but don't do this. Saying stuff about how you can't say what you think because you'll be banned, or telling people not to talk about something because you think it's dangerous, is not really contributing to having a reasonable adult conversation here.

I ended up posting in this thread more than I wanted to. We saw about 6 guys banned last night. We've been through this in the other thread, but understandably, the mood in this thread is much more sensitive considering people don't know a lot of the people involved in this whole clusterfuck.

Going into an explanation at this time would lead to more heat and name calling. Its best to let this go at this point then risk a ban. I'm just looking out for the people who have been posting in the X assault thread. We're celebrating surviving X assault, and getting banned by saying something wrong to the wrong person can be a bad way to go.

Ragingnight should also stop posting right about now. This isn't going to go anywhere till we get an official statement from Capcom or an update from Miranda or Aris.
 

duckroll

Member
We've had about 8 bans in the other thread due to this issue.
Think before you type, people.

Bailing out of this thread now. Too many generalized statements from people who are not members of the general FGC, the NeoGAF FGC, or even watched the streams.

I'll see you guys in the SFxT OT, if you survive. Be safe, everyone. The mods and Capcops are watching.

If you think I was blaming Miranda for this situation, I don't know what to say to you.
Actually, I do. I do have some choice words, but I just know they're going to get me banned, but I'd like to keep a gap of 6 months between each ban, so I'll just ignore this for now.

This thread is hard to quit, isn't it?

No one answer this. We've already been through this in the X Assault thread. Its a trap.

These are all terrible posts. You should have taken your own advice at the start of it all. :p
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Shame on the others that were there for not stepping in to stop that behavior. What an absolute scumbag. I'm not a particularly aggressive person but I don't think I could sit there with out yelling at him to shut his mouth.

This appears to be an individual that does interact with women very often. Someone should find a way to send this video to his mother and see how he feels about this kind of "funning around" afterward.

But.. They did...

Because Miranda was too scared to apparently, the others went to Aris to tell him to knock it off and he went and apologized to Miranda. Supposedly in the earlier days too. According to Sherryjenix IIRC.

*bails out of thread again to avoid the heat*
 

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
No one is responsible for them. However, if you want to shut "stream monsters" out and get rid of that perception, is it not possible to disable stream chat? Do you believe this would cause tournament viewers to drop? Either that or they need to step up moderations big time.
Like someone said earlier, this is as silly as making a big deal out of Youtube comments.
 
If you want to participate in the thread, participate in the thread, but don't do this. Saying stuff about how you can't say what you think because you'll be banned, or telling people not to talk about something because you think it's dangerous, is not really contributing to having a reasonable adult conversation here.

The young woman who agreed with the article had a completely different response to a similarly written article (same citations and opinion), leaving people scratching their heads.
 

krazen

Member
Going into an explanation at this time would lead to more heat and name calling. Its best to let this go at this point then risk a ban. I'm just looking out for the people who have been posting in the X assault thread. We're celebrating surviving X assault, and getting banned by saying something wrong to the wrong person can be a bad way to go.

Ragingnight should also stop posting right about now. This isn't going to go anywhere till we get an official statement from Capcom or an update from Miranda or Aris.

That's an unfair statement. Most of the bans that happened in that thread happened because people made statements that 1)were pretty blatantly insensitive and 2)were absolute negative statements in and of themselves without any real opinion.

We may think Ragingnight (for instance) is on the wrong side of the opinion, but he's open to other opinions about it or speaking in 'you're wrong and a fucking idiot' absolutes that happened in that other conversation. And ill leave this point at that.
 
OK, just saw the OP, and a clicked a few of the stories. I have to ask: Why was Capcom not more involved in the tone of the program? The whole "i'm gonna smell you" bit should have created an immediate response and corrective action from Capcom themselves should it?

I'm not a FGC community member, so forgive me if my questions are a bit dumb.

Does Capcom hold these kinds of contests on a regular basis? is there anyone from Capcom present during these long streaming events?
 
That's an unfair statement. Most of the bans that happened in that thread happened because people made statements that 1)were pretty blatantly insensitive and 2)were absolute negative statements in and of themselves without any real opinion.

We may think Ragingnight for instance is on the wrong side of the opinion, but he's not being an asshole about it or speaking in 'you're wrong and a fucking idiot' absolutes that happened in that other conversation. And ill leave this point at that.

Thank you for the clarification. I'm not trying to convince anybody or tell anybody they are wrong. I just see things differently and its a shame that there are people that are "ok" with sexual harassment in any shape, way or form. This includes not only Aris but only the stream monsters. Who knows, maybe one of those "stream monsters" will be a known figure in the community. And if such an event happens there should be measures taken to prevent any form of harassment from occuring.

Also Thanks Sephii for the headsup. While my accoutn was being approved I read many of your post on MahvelGAF.

OK, just saw the OP, and a clicked a few of the stories. I have to ask: Why was Capcom not more involved in the tone of the program? The whole "i'm gonna smell you" bit should have created an immediate response and corrective action from Capcom themselves should it?

I'm not a FGC community member, so forgive me if my questions are a bit dumb.

Does Capcom hold these kinds of contests on a regular basis? is there anyone from Capcom present during these long streaming events?

this is the first time Capcom has ever held this kind of event. It was really just an experiment I would say.

edit

=/ sephii
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
So they aren't part of the FGC?

I don't think trashy internet trolls that have a similar interest and get off on that type of stuff count really. If they showed up to events with that type of personality you can bet they would get their asses rocked or banned from events. The community as a whole once you are in treats each other with respect, even if there is some WWE type bullshit that goes on at times.

Or in the real moments of anger they just straight up talk shit, but it ALMOST NEVER goes past the shit talk. Not all competition makes friends.

The fact when something does go past that it becomes a HUGE ASS DEAL. The FGC doesn't brush off violence. There is a reason a knife puller is banned from everything. Aris got banned at other places as well. *using the ladies room when he thought it was empty* UltraDavid was with him with that one btw I believe. But he bailed out last second.
 

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
...

I can't find the words for this post. I think I need a break.

Yeah you do since you can't just answer a question. Q did it for you better though.

I think with stream monsters, you take the good with the bad. Interacting with them can be fun and when its positive, it's sweet. But the trolls are eliminated all too easily by mods in the stream, so why not be more vigilant in doing so? Let it be known right off the bat that bullshit won't be tolerated during a tournament. Just like in real life at these things right? =)
 

iammeiam

Member
The young woman who agreed with the article had a completely different response to a similarly written article (same citations and opinion), leaving people scratching their heads.

Is this the Destructoid one? She made it clear she was pissed off about it because the way her Twitter quotes were presented in it, in her opinion, made the article look like she'd spoken to them. Since she's on no-interview-lockdown, she was pissed at potentially looking like she'd given them an interview.

Unless there's another article she objected to.
 

Sblargh

Banned
Yeah you do since you can't just answer a question. Q did it for you better though.

I think with stream monsters, you take the good with the bad. Interacting with them can be fun and when its positive, it's sweet. But the trolls are eliminated all too easily by mods in the stream, so why not be more vigilant in doing so? Let it be known right off the bat that bullshit won't be tolerated during a tournament. Just like in real life at these things right? =)

I don't even know how these people handle paying stream monsters any attention. Spooky seems really good at this, but sometimes amazes me he evens leaves the chat open.
 

pakkit

Banned
From the PA Report's comments--

NeverHeiDae said:
I gotta say, I'm surprised at a lot of the comments here. As a woman who's been a gamer and dealing with sexual harassment and let's say "gender issues" since I was 4 and being made to play Princess Peach every effing time we played Mario on the playground (the sand was lava, goombas nerf balls), I've had a life time of Taking the Shit in Stride.

I can handle a lot more than most women in regards to comments regarding my anatomy, sexual appeal, lack thereof, implied rape, threatened rape, assumed ignorance, assumed harlotry....the list goes on, and I've developed a tried-and-true repertoire of coping. (and I am well aware that some people will probably take this as some sort of dare to say the nastiest things they can come up with)

What I guess I don't understand about a lot of the comments, and to a lesser degree the article, and what shocks me is the sort of assumption that people are making that almost any amount of shit-giving goes as long as the community internally agrees on the rules.

Admittedly, I've been in guilds and clans and teams, and I know how this works in theory, and in practice. There are times you give as good as you get, which is how we pretty much had to do it way back when being a gamer or a nerd was the same as being a leper, and there are times when you just ignore it, walk away, or let it drop. There are guys who are lechers with hearts of gold, where you know the over-the-top comments are just to get a laugh and know one thinks the guy's remotely serious. There are guys who you just sort of pity because they probably think breasts feel like bags of sand.

And then there's The Line; and it's different for every woman and sometimes different every day. It's that point that You Don't Cross. The joke that is Never Funny. Most girls who game, since we're still in a teensy minorty, sort of have reached an equilibrium with the men in their groups/clans/guilds/teams/whatever. They all know the line and they don't cross it. Just like they don't joke about Cancer anymore while Carl is mourning his sister's death from leukemia until he cracks the first joke.

Sometimes an outsider will go there, and said outsider is usually reviled by the inner circle, (in my experience often Laid the Smackdown upon by the dirtiest, nastiest old man of the group) and expunged. Life them moves on. Sometimes someone gets drunk and is just an ass. Sometimes the girl in question had an awful day at work, had her ass grabbed 3 times by lechers at the diner, and just wants to be HERSELF among the guys and just----"just not tonight guys, please?"

And sometimes it's an endemic system that somehow abuse is the norm? We're supposed to prove ourselves "gamer enough" because---why? I've heard several answers to this;
-That the upswing of fake terrible gamer marketing (Ie "gamergrub" and "gamer branded gilette razors") allows for wanna-bes and fakers into a tight knit community of what used to be outcasts.
-That one time Tim was dating This One Girl and she had sex with him and then he stopped playing on the Team.
-That there really aren't any good girl players so they just found one that was not "so bad" to fill out some imaginary affirmative action quota.

I'm not even going to say that I disagree with all of these points, cause well, some of them might be valid to some people, and honestly some parts of some are valid to me. There's gotta be that Line though, and that Line has to be respected, and agreed upon by all parties and enforced by someone who has respect. In this case that SHOULD have been Capcom and IGN, in my opinion. And in a case of a televised event that is gonna be used to market the game, the community, and get more people involved, I'm not convinced that Living Room Rules should apply. Somewhere, a 12 year old girl was watching this because she loves Tekken and knows how to use google and thinks Jin is cute and why are they saying all of those things about that pretty girl?

Tangent: Here's one reason why it's hard for some girls. There is usually one of us. Sometimes two! Wheee! So when the guys all want to talk about boobs, It's like the Hammer of Dawn has been focused on our mammaries. When the guys all want to talk about their wangs, well, look, there are 15 of you. It's spread out.

The point is, yeah, I think it is okay to have a community that jokes about T&A, and in a lot of ways I really love the particular brand of humor you only find in the fires of competitive gaming. But there is a point for that to stop- a point to say "Hey we are grown ups here". There has to be a point of entry for the public, and for other people who want in, and there has to be a way for the women on the inside to say "No means No."

If we saw this sort of behavior from....any other public figure- a football player, a basketball player, a hockey player, a news anchor, (and I would argue that we have), they apologize, they are suspended, sanctioned, disciplined, and the news calls it just. Other players are disgusted. I am certain that in practice these teams are as lewd and self-effacingly mutually abusive as any gaming clan/team/whatever. The difference is that they aren't under the misconception that they get that way whenever they want.

I've become "one of the guys" and I don't regret it. I'll joke about your parts if you are gonna give me a hard time about mine, and I will laugh while I do it. At home-at my arcade- my friend's backyard, in my space. Maybe not in public, where the Next Generation of Gamers will be looking at the screen and saying "Hey, I want to be like her---wait why is everyone mean to her?". I get that the gaming zone, with other gamers is a rare and luxurious place of comfort and succor where you can be a bit crass and a bit of competitive jerk-itude is almost requisite. But if I have to give that up some of the time, and it means at a bus-stop I can see a 8 year old girl, some gamer's daughter, with a Blanka lunch box and a smile on her face...I call it worth it.
 
Is this the Destructoid one? She made it clear she was pissed off about it because the way her Twitter quotes were presented in it, in her opinion, made the article look like she'd spoken to them. Since she's on no-interview-lockdown, she was pissed at potentially looking like she'd given them an interview.

Unless there's another article she objected to.

No that's the article.
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
Yeah you do since you can't just answer a question. Q did it for you better though.

I think with stream monsters, you take the good with the bad. Interacting with them can be fun and when its positive, it's sweet. But the trolls are eliminated all too easily by mods in the stream, so why not be more vigilant in doing so? Let it be known right off the bat that bullshit won't be tolerated during a tournament. Just like in real life at these things right? =)

Spooky just straight up ignores the chat 95% of the time. Unless they are technical issues or it's an event where he is answering questions. Most of the time though the chat is blurring by at a million miles a second and there is really no secure proper way to ban someone with the way the system is set up. And when people do start banning mis clicks happen all the time because of the way the chat is set up and the speed of it.
 
Spooky just straight up ignores the chat 95% of the time. Unless they are technical issues or it's an event where he is answering questions. Most of the time though the chat is blurring by at a million miles a second and there is really no secure proper way to ban someone with the way the system is set up. And when people do start banning mis clicks happen all the time because of the way the chat is set up and the speed of it.
individual comments are mostly useless in stream chat, but it is useful to get group response for technical questions/etc
 
While I agree that the FGC as a whole is gritty and "real" (unlike eSports), Aris pisses me off. He always "saying what people are afraid to say," and every time it comes off as just flat-out disrespectful and ignorant. You don't have to be an asshole to get your "point" across, smh.
 

Sblargh

Banned
While I agree that the FGC as a whole is "gritty" and not cheesy like the whole eSports, Aris pisses me off. He always "saying what people are afraid to say," and every time it comes off as just flat-out disrespectful and ignorant. You don't have to be an asshole to get your point across, smh.

That's one thing. One reason all of this happened is because people accepted this behavior numerous times on the past. I'm no different, it's like on stream, he would say something racist or homophobic and I would cringe, but then he would say something really funny and I would laugh and give him a pass.
I think that is a story there, people gave him a pass for years, so when it finally backfired, of course he was baffled and saying that "that's the way things are". People allowed this be the way things are for him.
 

Mahonay

Banned
Aris doesn't play any Capcom games. He doesn't even show up to Capcom tourneys unless there's Tekken/Soul Calibur being played in the same tourney. He did play some MK AFAIK and he's still playing Tekken and SC V. He usually does commentary.

This goes to show why he was picked for this show. He was picked for his personality as he's got little to no 2D experience. Capcom knew what they were getting into

Ah well, shows what I know. Hah. Either way, if it were my choice I'd never want him involved in any gaming event where I have to hear him speak.
 

Mahonay

Banned
But.. They did...

Because Miranda was too scared to apparently, the others went to Aris to tell him to knock it off and he went and apologized to Miranda. Supposedly in the earlier days too. According to Sherryjenix IIRC.

*bails out of thread again to avoid the heat*

Yes, I suppose they did show that they were aware of what was happening. They key thing here is that IT DIDN'T STOP. It should not have been allowed to perpetuate the way it did.

"Hey man, I think you should knock that off" is not the way to respond to sexual harassment. Someone needed to step up to him and let him know this shit stops right then and there. What is probably upsetting me the most is how casually it was treated as it was happening

Ah fuck, double post :(
 
That's one thing. One reason all of this happened is because people accepted this behavior numerous times on the past. I'm no different, it's like on stream, he would say something racist or homophobic and I would cringe, but then he would say something really funny and I would laugh and give him a pass.
I think that is a story there, people gave him a pass for years, so when it finally backfired, of course he was baffled and saying that "that's the way things are". People allowed this be the way things are for him.

But can behavior like that be tolerated when it becomes a professional event? It seems like this story could have a chilling effect on corporate sponsorship/involvement in future events.
I'm sure someone in Capcom's legal dept. is having a rather unpleasant week.
 

Mahonay

Banned
But can behavior like that be tolerated when it becomes a professional event? It seems like this story could have a chilling effect on corporate sponsorship/involvement in future events.
I'm sure someone in Capcom's legal dept. is having a rather unpleasant week.
I've been pretty curious about the legal implications myself.
 
I guess I'll take my shot at tackling this.

I think the use of stream monster dialogue being repeated is being used to give context to Aris' actions, inferring that the situation was not one where he clearly decided "I am going to sexually harass this woman".

...Instead, it infers that he did not think that repeating that dialogue would be a sexual harassment issue in the first place, which is worse... but is a tenable objection to asserting that he was willfully, deliberately harassing her. Instead it implies that he was both ignorant and fundamentally did not see comments of that type as an issue.

The act and the responsibility for performing it do not change. But I do think this is part of the difference in perspective where some people see him as "human trash", while others think he is just foolish and terribly misguided on a core moral principle. Bringing up the stream monster situation is an objection to the first label.

And in the case of the second, some take it a step further and attempt to use that premise to whitewash the severity of the act itself, in that it becomes something more 'forgivable'.


Also for the record, I think that way too much has been read into Miranda's tweets and responses thus far, and that
  • sp00ky's response earlier regarding the situation(same as bluerei, that it had been dealt with and quickly)
  • Capcom's lack of immediately taking (any) action regarding Aris
  • Aris and Miranda agreeing to not speak to news sites because Arturo thought they'd get misconstrued

all infers that this situation is still being grossly blown out of proportion, but Aris' initial treatment of Miranda is still something reprehensible that I'm sure Capcom has no desire to ever see repeated under their watch or their dime.
 
That's one thing. One reason all of this happened is because people accepted this behavior numerous times on the past. I'm no different, it's like on stream, he would say something racist or homophobic and I would cringe, but then he would say something really funny and I would laugh and give him a pass.
I think that is a story there, people gave him a pass for years, so when it finally backfired, of course he was baffled and saying that "that's the way things are". People allowed this be the way things are for him.

I figured as much. Chris Hu does it as well...and don't get me wrong, while I understand both sides, I feel there are certain lines you don't cross (no pun intended) and then try to turn around and justify them.
 

Sblargh

Banned
But can behavior like that be tolerated when it becomes a professional event? It seems like this story could have a chilling effect on corporate sponsorship/involvement in future events.
I'm sure someone in Capcom's legal dept. is having a rather unpleasant week.

I'm not 100% sure, but I would bet that if you go to EVO archives while Aris is on, you can find him saying stuff that is as legally unpleasant as this; the difference might be that he would switch target to whoever was on at the moment, so there is no harass to one single person.
 

Lancehead

Member
To touch on something posted in the OP,

I wouldn't consider female fighters having lower health a form of sexism. I'm assuming they have some other benefit to balance the lower health handicap. Male and female bodies are differently built, so if a game tries to apply that in terms of stats, I wouldn't have any objection.
 
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