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[Kusagari]

Yeah....except that he DID apologize multiple times to her the same day it happened, and hasn't really said or done shit since.

Then what's with the Miranda tweet where she says she talked to him and nothing happened?

Was she lying?

 

[alstein]

Well, here's the real question: Is this or is this not an actual problem in your opinion?

If Aris is one of a kind and there is no one else like him or very few people like him who have such opinions and can also get the amount of attention in the fighting scene to appear in interviews and such, then it is not a huge problem and as long as the community kicks his ass over the stupidity of this episode and the media "forgets" about it as time goes by, the community will continue to improve and incidents like this are unlikely to happen again.

On the other hand, if there is a possibility that something like this can blow up in the news again, then it is something the community needs to work harder to stamp out. Prevention is always better than cure. Is there is a sort of problem, ignoring it won't make it go away.

Just saying.

This mentality has been around for years. I'm probably one of the older folks here, I was around in the mid-90's. I remember alt.games.sf2. This attitude was quite common in there. agsf2 spawned srk, and that mentality was seeded throughout the community, and it's reinforced culturally.

It's going to take a sustained effort to eliminate this from the culture- and I seriously doubt SRK would be willing to take a short-term financial hit to do so.

I'm curious if this is just a uniquely American problem, or does it exist in European scene or Japanese arcades?


Miranda's probably pretty scared, there are folks in the FGC who probably know her number, and one of them might make it public (this has happened in SRK before)- and all hell might break loose. A tight-knit community is not a fun place if you are outcast from it, but the damage may already have been done. I'll be surprised if she's still playing offline in a year. I've had other friends who have been turned off by the community.

 

[Firemind]

Bailing out of this thread now. Too many generalized statements from people who are not members of the general FGC, the NeoGAF FGC, or even watched the streams.

I'll see you guys in the SFxT OT, if you survive. Be safe, everyone. The mods and Capcops are watching.

Nice for being seclusive. You don't have to be a member of the FGC to know this isn't okay. It's statements like these that paint the FGC as an unwelcoming clique; one that will never grow past that if attitudes like these persist.

 

[sephi22]

This is great. Blaming the victim is so typical.

If you think I was blaming Miranda for this situation, I don't know what to say to you.
Actually, I do. I do have some choice words, but I just know they're going to get me banned, but I'd like to keep a gap of 6 months between each ban, so I'll just ignore this for now.

 

[zlatko]

Then what's with the Miranda tweet where she says she talked to him and nothing happened?

Was she lying?

All I know is Spooky is the one who cleared it up on air saying that Aris had apologized to her multiple times on the day it went down.

So as far as I know, he did.

Anyone else got the 100% confirmation on that?

 

[BronsonLee]

The FGC has been inherently flawed since pretty much forever, unfortunately. Only from 2005 on did it start becoming popular, and only in the past few years did females really start coming to tournaments and whatnot. FGC doesn't like change. Think of them like your likeable racist grandfather; he's tons of fun to be around, but his values are ass backwards.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Yeah....except that he DID apologize multiple times to her the same day it happened, and hasn't really said or done shit since.

people need to post youtube videos and tweets and chat logs of the apologies to combat all the youtube videos and tweets and chat logs of the condemnations.

 

[MG310]

I think its a problem in most gaming circles its just that with fighters its a smaller pool of people with a higher concentration of the negative ones - so it unfortunately just kinda became the norm.

 

[zlatko]

The FGC has been inherently flawed since pretty much forever, unfortunately. Only from 2005 on did it start becoming popular, and only in the past few years did females really start coming to tournaments and whatnot. FGC doesn't like change. Think of them like your likeable racist grandfather; he's tons of fun to be around, but his values are ass backwards.

You leave my former Nazi grandfather out of this.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

I can't support misinformation, I just gave some examples from the other side because there seems to be enough explicit evidence of shit Aris did already.

Well, I'm not sure this is really the "other side" per se. This doesn't matter in terms of the main issue at stake. Aris went over the line, twice, on camera. That shit is pretty cut and dry.

These other only issues matter (and I personally think they're overblown) in terms of things she said happened away from the stream that makes all of this look even worse for the people involved. But, most of the things you mentioned are "character" issues, not issues that are factually disagreeing with most of what she's said.

 

[faceless007]

I'll just say that maybe we don't have all the facts in about the way things were handled and maybe Miranda's behavior has seemed inconsistent or contradictory after the fact, but none of that is relevant to the heinousness of what was actually said to her and how it was justified later. Victims of abuse are often confused and try to rationalize things later, that doesn't mitigate what happened to them or make them responsible at all. This is a bigger issue than simply how one person feels about it.

 

[TheExodu5]

While I obviously agree that this Aris guy is an example of a terrible human being and his attitude is despicable, having watched the "Sexual Harassment" video in the featured article, I can't really call it harassment. Miranda is playing off it and doesn't seem to mind the attention. Often time with a group of friends people will have fun with race or sex related jokes without getting offended, no biggie. That's not to say it's not an encompassing in the fighting game community, but I'm not ready to cry foul in this case.

Or maybe I just didn't watch enough of the video.

 

[Resilient]

the problem is the majority of people, who are good, don't want to throw him under the bus, and take attacks on him as attacks on the entire community. it's like the whole blue wall protecting bad cops thing.

There are few reasons I can think of for them not wanting to do something about it, and they all paint a picture of a boys club where power is important.

1. They're scared of him.
2. They don't want to change because they like the behaviour and the way it is.
3. If they say something, they'll be ostracised for it by the community, and the cycle continues.

 

[obonicus]

It's going to take a sustained effort to eliminate this from the culture- and I seriously doubt
SRK would be willing to take a short-term financial hit to do so.

Capcom could do it, though. Especially if the bad PR grows; it's on PA, via PA reports, who knows what Tycho will post about in the news post. Or a non-gaming news site with a gaming blog could pick up the story, and make it much worse.

 

[zlatko]

people need to post youtube videos and tweets and chat logs of the apologies to combat all the youtube videos and tweets and chat logs of the condemnations.

Problem is when the apologies went down, they were after the cameras went down for the day for the show.

I'm sure he could do another staged apology on stream so it's just there for viewing proof too, but it wouldn't be that from the heart or anything like the actual ones he did. (Assuming they were legit from the heart and he was sorry for it)

It'd probably do a lot to help put out some of the fire, or it could backfire and just put gasoline on it too.

Not defending Aris in anyway either. Just putting it out there that from what I gathered watching the streams, hearing from Spooky, Art, haunts, and then reading on here in the megathread, Aris had indeed apologized, but it was behind doors.

 

[Kuugrr]

the problem is the majority of people, who are good, don't want to throw him under the bus, and take attacks on him as attacks on the entire community. it's like the whole blue wall protecting bad cops thing.

Well... there are people attacking the entire community instead of one person.

There's something to be said for people who don't want to throw him under the bus and defend him, but also something to said for those of us who aren't quite comfortable with being considered giant asshole sexual predators by association.

I agree that this is a problem that needs to be addressed and the rules of basic human interaction should apply, but... you know. Painting with broad brushes isn't a solution to the problem either.

Plus, homophobia and misogyny still seem to be problems in gaming as a whole, not just one community. We all need to work on stamping it out, yeah?

Just my two cents.

 

[Kusagari]

All I know is Spooky is the one who cleared it up on air saying that Aris had apologized to her multiple times on the day it went down.

So as far as I know, he did.

Anyone else got the 100% confirmation on that?

https://twitter.com/#!/Super__Yan/status/174600846212988928

Well Miranda apparently talked to him in private early on and nothing changed.

This is why it's funny people bash the articles for not getting the facts right, when apparently we can't even agree on the so called facts. This whole things just a giant clusterfuck.

 

[Busaiku]

This is a terrible thing to say. The only way it is not a terrible thing to say is if he is 100% joking and with a group of people who knew this to be fact. This wouldn't be a thing if he was joking.

I don't need to know him or be part of "FGC gaf" to know that at this point he said some dumb things, and instead of being reasonable and apologizing and not continue he decided to be an asshole. This is human interaction, not FIGHTING GAME SPIRIT THAT IS PART OF THE CULTURE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND STOP TRYING TO CHANGE OUR SHITTY WAYS.

Well, the thing is they're saying that about a character in a game that everybody hates.
Not an actual person, a fictional character in a game.

And with that, I'm out.

 

[wolfmat]

I'm curious if this is just a uniquely American problem, or does it exist in European scene or Japanese arcades?

Well, of course, expletives are thrown around everywhere. But noone's residing to personal attacks anywhere in my gaming circles without getting thrown the fuck out. That shit is out of line, period.

And I don't believe that this is an American problem, I think there are key people enabling such behavior. This is usually the core issue in other groups as well (the military, manual labour, hooligans are all problematic in the same way because of a culture that allows enablers).

So turn it around if you want to get rid of it.

 

[TheExodu5]

Because this:

Stream monsters are a truly different breed.

Not really a FGC isolated issue, though. Look up any YouTube video with an attractive female and you'll find similar comments. Anonymity is the beast, in this case.

 

[alstein]

Capcom could do it, though. Especially if the bad PR grows; it's on PA, via PA reports, who knows what Tycho will post about in the news post. Or a non-gaming news site with a gaming blog could pick up the story, and make it much worse.

The only thing Capcom could do is embrace esports fully and split the FGC. That may not be very profitable, and there's no guarantee you'd gain more people then you'd lose.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Aris has been a dipshit for years, he just finally went full retard with it.

That just makes you wonder why Capcom/NAMCO picked him to be part of the show to begin with. It gets into duckroll's point about avoiding having him in a position of high visibility in the community. Why put him on streams when you know that he's capable of saying something that could embarrass the community?

 

[PsychoSoldier]

All I know is Spooky is the one who cleared it up on air saying that Aris had apologized to her multiple times on the day it went down.

So as far as I know, he did.

Anyone else got the 100% confirmation on that?

I'm pretty sure Capcom pulling Aris aside and him apologizing happened.

However, what is up in the air is whether or not things were still happening afterwards. She seemed to think that nothing had changed, while bluerei thought from his end that everything appeared to be cool after the apology.

Whatever may be the case about the days in between, Sunday happened.

 

[zlatko]

https://twitter.com/#!/Super__Yan/status/174600846212988928

While Miranda apparently talked to him in private early on and nothing changed.

This is why it's funny people bash the articles for not getting the facts right, when apparently we can't even agree on the so called facts. This whole things just a giant clusterfuck.

Nail on the head. Which is why the majority of the people actually there for the event, aren't even touching the topic with a 10 foot pole.

It seems the majority of the talking about it going on now is just various peeps on the net.

 

[erpg]

Not really a FGC isolated issue, though. Look up any YouTube video with an attractive female and you'll find similar comments. Anonymity is the beast, in this case.

He's smelling her and asking her cup size while she is audibly discomforted. Evidently, it sometimes seeps into live events.

 

[wolfmat]

Nail on the head. Which is why the majority of the people actually there for the event, aren't even touching the topic with a 10 foot pole.

Well, I think they really should touch the topic. Get right in there. Man up.

 

[ElFly]

If you think I was blaming Miranda for this situation, I don't know what to say to you.
Actually, I do. I do have some choice words, but I just know they're going to get me banned, but I'd like to keep a gap of 6 months between each ban, so I'll just ignore this for now.

Why should she have to -and I quote you- know how to "deal with stream monsters".

Why a female has to learn to endure misoginy?

You cited this as a cause for the problems she faced.

 

[obonicus]

The only thing Capcom could do is embrace esports fully and split the FGC. That may not be very profitable, and there's no guarantee you'd gain more people then you'd lose.

That'd be last resort. They could force the EVO organizers to make an example out of Aris, though. I'm not sure if it'd fix things re: the actual problem behind all this, but it would send a clear message that certain behavior is not okay, as well as put on a good showing to the public.

 

[SolarPowered]

I'll say this much...

I think quite a few people in the community do have legitimate issues they need to work out if they want more women to join the scene. Some people want to pretend that Aris is an isolated case and he isn't imo. He certainly doesn't represent a majority or even a sizable minority though, but it's there and it needs to be addressed over time just like all the other issues the FGC has dealt with over time.

That's great. First be a dick, then apologize. That makes it cool, right?

When the hell did I say that? It's the first step towards solving the issue because it opens a legitimate dialogue between the guilty party and the victim.

Also, what does it matter if you're in the FGC or not? This is public. You idiots are on the news. You're representing gaming. What the fuck are you doing?

Some people that Capcom chose didn't know well enough apparently.

You have to face the fact that this is generally not acceptable behavior at all. This includes handling the consequences. This is how society works. Furthermore, age doesn't factor into it. The kids involved also have to get their act together.

Agreed

Those scumbags deserve a beating.

And not a video game beating either. That kind of behavior is NEVER okay.

Meeting ignorance and prejudice with violence makes you really hardcore and cool, eh? Even old school folks in the FGC learned that this is not the way, dude..

:/

 

[obonicus]

Nail on the head. Which is why the majority of the people actually there for the event, aren't even touching the topic with a 10 foot pole.

That's the dumbest part, though. The FGC can weather this, no doubt. The corporations behind this, though, they don't want the bad press. And as long as they keep quiet, the press is going to come to its own, probably unfavorable conclusions, just feeding the bad press.

 

[TheExodu5]

He's smelling her and asking her cup size while she is audibly discomforted. Evidently, it sometimes seeps into live events.

Yeah, I definitely didn't watch enough of the video then.

And judging by her comment in the Giant Bomb article:

During the exchange, as matches raged in the background, Pakozdi chimed in about Bakhtanians’ explanation for the pervasiveness of inappropriate sexual language within fighting game culture.

“It hurts the community,” she said.

“I hope my mom isn’t disappointed with all of this shit,” reads one tweet.

“Capcom and the stream teams know and they don’t care. I just gotta wait 2 more days,” reads another.

“I’m not leaving because by contract I have to stay here 2 more days. If it were up to me I would have left long ago," she said.

She's clearly offended and hurt by this behavior.

Reading more and more of this, it's just disgusting that this kind of thing is encouraged in the FGC.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

That'd be last resort. They could force the EVO organizers to make an example out of Aris, though. I'm not sure if it'd fix things re: the actual problem behind all this, but it would send a clear message that certain behavior is not okay, as well as put on a good showing to the public.

Well, making an example out of Aris is obviously a good PR move for the SRK Illuminati or for Capcom in general, but I have a feeling that there are a ton of people who support and enable this kind of behavior that aren't going to get touched.

 

[iammeiam]

So I'm trying to get an idea of the bullet points of this whole cluster because I hadn't heard a thing until the articles went out.

- Aris says stupid shit to Miranda, because he's prompted by the "stream monsters" who're like the creepy comment trolls of livestreams that everyone thinks is horrible and nothing can be done about, except for those times the on-air folks play into their bullshit

- Miranda and Aris have an offline conversation about previous, he presumably apologizes, she thinks they're cool

- Some time later he goes on his "Sexual harassment and fighting games are like peanut butter and chocolate, and if you try to replace the harassment with... non-harassment, it'd be like making a Reese's out of chocolate and jelly. Which isn't even a Reese's anymore, it's Starcraft, so obviously the sexual harassment must stay." rant

- Miranda essentially shuts down on playing the next day, going so far as to forfeit her way out of the tournament which may or may not have screwed over a team-mate's shot of getting back in (per her twitter, it didn't, but I have no idea WTF)

- Articles start appearing from games journalists. Nobody can get a quote from the key players in the fiasco; Miranda claims on twitter to have 'promised' somebody she wouldn't talk to journalists. She later protests the destructoid article for phrasing things such that it seems like she talked to them, but calls the PA article "pretty accurate"

- At some point she tells Starslay3r not to defend her, and calls Starslay3r stupid, which either means she didn't need defense or she just hates Starslay3r.

Is the above accurate?

 

[alstein]

That'd be last resort. They could force the EVO organizers to make an example out of Aris, though. I'm not sure if it'd fix things re: the actual problem behind all this, but it would send a clear message that certain behavior is not okay, as well as put on a good showing to the public.

Make enough examples and folks will either get the message or leave. If folks can't enjoy the FGC without making asses of themselves, they aren't real fans to me.

 

[BronsonLee]

You leave my former Nazi grandfather out of this.

I'm a Junior~! I'M INSANE! THERE'S NO TELLING WHAT I'LL DOOOOOOO

I must say this, though. Like 95% of the FGC is aces, just fairly...urban in their handling of things. VERY few people condone situations like this, if any at all. It's not an isolated incident, but it is really freaking rare. I suppose it falls into the behavioral law of averages anyway.

 

[freenudemacusers]

So I'm trying to get an idea of the bullet points of this whole cluster because I hadn't heard a thing until the articles went out.

- Aris says stupid shit to Miranda, because he's prompted by the "stream monsters" who're like the creepy comment trolls of livestreams that everyone thinks is horrible and nothing can be done about, except for those times the on-air folks play into their bullshit

- Miranda and Aris have an offline conversation about previous, he presumably apologizes, she thinks they're cool

- Some time later he goes on his "Sexual and fighting games are like peanut butter and chocolate, and if you try to replace the harassment with... non-harassment, it'd be like making a Reese's out of chocolate and jelly. Which isn't even a Reese's anymore, it's Starcraft, so obviously the sexual harassment must stay." rant

- Miranda essentially shuts down on playing the next day, going so far as to forfeit her way out of the tournament which may or may not have screwed over a team-mate's shot of getting back in (per her twitter, it didn't, but I have no idea WTF)

- Articles start appearing from games journalists. Nobody can get a quote from the key players in the fiasco; Miranda claims on twitter to have 'promised' somebody she wouldn't talk to journalists. She later protests the destructoid article for phrasing things such that it seems like she talked to them, but calls the PA article "pretty accurate"

- At some point she tells Starslay3r not to defend her, and calls Starslay3r stupid, which either means she didn't need defense or she just hates Starslay3r.

Is the above accurate?

more or less, I think. add in some dumb shit (and not dumb shit) seeping out of twitter and you have a pretty good overview of the deal.

 

[wolfmat]

When the hell did I say that? It's the first step towards solving the issue because it opens a legitimate dialogue between the guilty party and the victim.

I didn't say you said that. And you're right, of course.

Who are you calling an idiot? I already know that. Some people that Capcom chose didn't know it apparently.

I'm calling the part of the FGC community that tries to justify this a bunch of idiots. I'm calling the people who started this shit on the chat idiots. I'm calling the key people that actually voiced the sexist remarks during the event idiots. I'm calling everyone who thinks you can just move on, or contain it within the FGC, idiotic. I'm not calling you an idiot, I think you're a swell guy.

 

[zlatko]

Well, I think they really should touch the topic. Get right in there. Man up.

What Arturo was saying, if I remember correctly, is the reason no one is touching it at the moment is things could be taken out of context and sensationalized...which well yeah that went down.

If anyone COULD remedy all this, it could be CrossCounterLive tonight when they do their show, which I imagine the show and how it went is going to be their main focus.

To be fair too, Miranda is not 100% innocent in all of this situation. It COMPLETELY sucks that Aris did what he did, no matter what egged him to do it, especially if that's something she is not familiar with. Not the harassment portion, but the overall trolls in streams/online, because Sherry Jenix a girl who is there also competing, did nothing to defend her really in an interview with Long Island Joe, where she was just saying she gets the same kind of shit and just has thick skin.

Sherry also said, that if she really had issues with Aris, she could have just gone up to him and been direct with him, but her problem was that she wasn't confrontational and so she said that is why Aris kept messing with her.

But back to the Miranda not being innocent portion, it should be noted that she threw a fellow contestant under the bus and purposely lost matches and not try, which fucked him over a chance for $25,000. Also, it's a slap in the face to all the other people who auditioned for the show, and they didn't get a chance to really compete, when she forfeits without even playing her matches the other day.

There's a LOT, and I mean a LOT more going on here. Even what I just mentioned is like .5% of the situation.

The reason I haven't even wanted to put thoughts down to words here on GAF, is because I'm of the same mind of where Arturo has been with this whole thing. "People don't know enough about this to start making opinions up about it yet." Which makes sense to me, because I know big pieces to the puzzle are still missing.

Now if you guys want to keep discussing it(which people will), and form opinions on it, by all means, that's what GAF is for, but keep in mind you are dealing with a limited amount of resources.

My final thoughts though, Aris was in the wrong no matter what for what he did to her, but her handling of it all is not something I'm fully on board with either.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

He's smelling her and asking her cup size while she is audibly discomforted. Evidently, it sometimes seeps into live events.

I don't think that's a fair assessment, she was playing along with it, laughing and playing it up. She humored him through that. That isn't to say that she was comfortable, but on the outside that isn't the case. Did he actually go up to her and smell her? I don't remember that, but it's fucking weird.

 

[D6AMIA6N]

That dude looks like a fat terrorist. Shave an drop 40 fat ass. You honestly can't curb your comments around a woman? No wonder you're a 40 year old fighting game enthusiast virgin.

 

[obonicus]

Well, making an example out of Aris is obviously a good PR move for the SRK Illuminati or for Capcom in general, but I have a feeling that there are a ton of people who support and enable this kind of behavior that aren't going to get touched.

Yeah, that's what I mean. If anything, it'd probably just make people mask their behavior. Still, on the surface it'd seem like an improvement.

 

[ipitydatfu]

I don't think that's a fair assessment, she was playing along with it, laughing and playing it up. That isn't to say that she was comfortable, but on the outside that isn't the case. Did he actually go up to her and smell her? I don't remember that, but it's fucking weird.

it happened. watch the day1 recap

 

[SolarPowered]

That just makes you wonder why Capcom/NAMCO picked him to be part of the show to begin with. It gets into duckroll's point about avoiding having him in a position of high visibility in the community. Why put him on streams when you know that he's capable of saying something that could embarrass the community?

I wonder about that too. I think most people expected Markman to be team Tekken's coach.

*shrugs shoulders*

Well, making an example out of Aris is obviously a good PR move for the SRK Illuminati or for Capcom in general, but I have a feeling that there are a ton of people who support and enable this kind of behavior that aren't going to get touched.

Rome wasn't built in a day. They will change or their day will come.

 

[h3ro]

That dude looks like a fat terrorist. Shave an drop 40 fat ass. You honestly can't curb your comments around a woman? No wonder you're a 40 year old fighting game enthusiast virgin.

Oh come on. Isn't this post exactly what some posters are trying to say needs to go away from the community?

How is this different than what Aris was saying?

 

[Deleted member 13876]

- At some point she tells Starslay3r not to defend her, and calls Starslay3r stupid, which either means she didn't need defense or she just hates Starslay3r.

Is the above accurate?

That one was a bit awkward. She heard the name Starslay3r and kinda started popping off against her and shortly after that heard she was actually defending her. Upon this I believe she basically agreed with Starslay3r that the harassing was going a bit too far, but implied she has some small beef with with her. I agree we generally don't really know what's fully going on and it's hard to piece together the full picture.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

it happened. watch the day1 recap

smh....

That dude looks like a fat terrorist. Shave an drop 40 fat ass. You honestly can't curb your comments around a woman? No wonder you're a 40 year old fighting game enthusiast virgin.

smh....

 

[BronsonLee]

If it's the same Aris I'm thinking of (I'm thinking of one around 2005 in Tekken Zaibatsu), then not only has this shit been coming for at least 6 years, the hammer should've been dropped LAST year at Evo. Shit is unacceptable on all fronts.

And he obviously should not have been the Team Tekken person when there's like 85 thousand people I can think of who would be better fits.

 

[TheChits]

That dude looks like a fat terrorist. Shave an drop 40 fat ass. You honestly can't curb your comments around a woman? No wonder you're a 40 year old fighting game enthusiast virgin.

Dude come on.

 

[Ken Masters]

this is another reason why I HATE the fighting game community, and yes I'm a fighting game fan

 

[faceless007]

But back to the Miranda not being innocent portion, it should be noted that she threw a fellow contestant under the bus and purposely lost matches and not try, which fucked him over a chance for $25,000. Also, it's a slap in the face to all the other people who auditioned for the show, and they didn't get a chance to really compete, when she forfeits without even playing her matches the other day.

What does any of that have to do with the misogyny that was thrown at her?