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Cross The Line - Sexual Assault... ok, maybe just Sexual Harassment!
- Thread starter The Faceless Master
- Start date
Very glad this topic got a separate thread. Original thread shouldn't be clogged with attempts of discussion on this topic.
As for the situation in question, i believe that nobody should be put in an environment where they feel offended or harassed. That isn't right. I believe everyone feels the same way.
However, it has never come to anyone's attention that people did feel offended. I won't speak like I am part of the FGC or know anything more than your average stream monster but even despite what is called juvenile and off-colour environment, everyone enjoyed it (best example i can think of is the newly created fgtv, which has homosexuals and people of many different ethnicities under one roof). They use slurs and other things which may be considered offensive, but they are all completely cool with it.
That is where the "you gotta have thick skin" stigma comes from; because a lot of who is in the community aren't very easily offended by it.
When you think about it, this may be the reason why the community is very small. So this should be an eye-opener as to how to expand the community as a whole, while creating a more appealing atmosphere for newcomers.
How is that done though? That isn't a very easy question to answer. Everyone has their own idea on what the community should be, but the fact of the matter is the community is all of it. The reason there is a defense is because there is this idea that the community becoming "mainstream" will slowly shun out other segments, leaving some that want to monopolize it. A simple example would be people wanting to get rid of the "yipes" and "rush hour" portion of the community, and push the "ultrachen" portion. The reasons also differ. Some want to see the community itself grow as a whole, others just want to monopolize it for personal gain. This is where the defensive attitude comes from.
What i think needs to be done is that people need to sit down and really think about what is the good and the bad with every aspect of the FGC. This occurrence obviously is an example of the bad. They should work to rectify it, and not just shun the persons responsible.
But again I don't know Aris, I don't know Miranda, I don't know the intricate details of the situation. I will give them and everyone involved the benefit of the doubt though and say that they will find a way to rectify this. Especially considering that it's been put into the spotlight the way it has.
As for the situation in question, i believe that nobody should be put in an environment where they feel offended or harassed. That isn't right. I believe everyone feels the same way.
However, it has never come to anyone's attention that people did feel offended. I won't speak like I am part of the FGC or know anything more than your average stream monster but even despite what is called juvenile and off-colour environment, everyone enjoyed it (best example i can think of is the newly created fgtv, which has homosexuals and people of many different ethnicities under one roof). They use slurs and other things which may be considered offensive, but they are all completely cool with it.
That is where the "you gotta have thick skin" stigma comes from; because a lot of who is in the community aren't very easily offended by it.
When you think about it, this may be the reason why the community is very small. So this should be an eye-opener as to how to expand the community as a whole, while creating a more appealing atmosphere for newcomers.
How is that done though? That isn't a very easy question to answer. Everyone has their own idea on what the community should be, but the fact of the matter is the community is all of it. The reason there is a defense is because there is this idea that the community becoming "mainstream" will slowly shun out other segments, leaving some that want to monopolize it. A simple example would be people wanting to get rid of the "yipes" and "rush hour" portion of the community, and push the "ultrachen" portion. The reasons also differ. Some want to see the community itself grow as a whole, others just want to monopolize it for personal gain. This is where the defensive attitude comes from.
What i think needs to be done is that people need to sit down and really think about what is the good and the bad with every aspect of the FGC. This occurrence obviously is an example of the bad. They should work to rectify it, and not just shun the persons responsible.
But again I don't know Aris, I don't know Miranda, I don't know the intricate details of the situation. I will give them and everyone involved the benefit of the doubt though and say that they will find a way to rectify this. Especially considering that it's been put into the spotlight the way it has.
Meh, I don't mind this. It's like, the big characters will be slow and have high damage output; the school girl will be fast and have low health. I find that female characters in game usually are more versatile (I main Sakura on SSF4, but also play Makoto and Rose; and I plan on trying Poison on this one).
I think it's a cool way to set the tone of a character visually. The muscle guy will have health, the little girl won't. You know it by just looking at the model. It works.
Devolution
Member
FYI Miranda isn't the only one who had to undergo sexist shit. Aris said some stuff on stream for the rest of us to hear as well.
The way the fighting game community appears to be somehow split on this incident makes an outsider like me view them as a community of people that are totally and completely socially inept. This has all been like one massive case of Aspergers.
In no way shape or form should this kind of thing be okay. it's discerning to me that people are rationalizing this in the context of some kind of FGC rule set. Just, what the fuck? Really?
"Vagina tax" is an incredibly stupid argument. It is simply a balancing aspect, nothing more, nothing less. It affects male characters that have the same advantages that they do. (larger moveset/more options/more mobility/smaller hitbox/more combo and overall damage output)
The small female characters are among the most powerful in Street Fighter IV as well.
Want to speak on it? Ask Capcom to put in a female grappler with slow movement and a large body.
Not sure why they don't (oh wait i do: nobody liked or played Mika)
If they try that again and the char has 900 health, then there will be an argument to be made.
But for the most part it's a thinly veiled excuse to whine that their character shouldn't have weaknesses.
But that's another discussion for another thread.
The small female characters are among the most powerful in Street Fighter IV as well.
Want to speak on it? Ask Capcom to put in a female grappler with slow movement and a large body.
Not sure why they don't (oh wait i do: nobody liked or played Mika)
If they try that again and the char has 900 health, then there will be an argument to be made.
But for the most part it's a thinly veiled excuse to whine that their character shouldn't have weaknesses.
But that's another discussion for another thread.
the so called vagina tax, yea I don't consider female characters having low health sexist at all it's a balance issue. It's all about the size of the character. If R. Mika were in the game for example she'd have more health than the others. Low health usually comes with more mobility. Cammy in AE has low health but she has frame traps for days and a lot of good matchups for example, ibuki controls a ton of space, is very fast, has a super jump etc.
FlutterPuffs
Member
The irony about this is that the female body can generally deal with pain much bother than the male.
lol R Mika. Not exactly a point in SF's favor.
freenudemacusers
Member
makes for a wonderful trip through google image search!
SteveWinwood
Member
Devolution
Member
Yeah but pussies can take more punishment than balls and yet balls = courage, pussies = cowards.
outunderthestars
Banned
Went off to image search Mika, and found this figure. Was this an official figure???
Stop it. You're going to create some kind of paradox.
Devolution
Member
Obviously the female fighters just need bigger vajayjays to increase their health pools.
SteveWinwood
Member
I've never understood that. Just the general men are stronger thing present in society I guess.
Lost Fragment
Obsessed with 4chan
The split, in my view, isn't about whether Aris was right or wrong. An overwhelming majority in the community don't seem to be too happy with Aris at the moment (though, working full time and being busy beyond that, maybe I just haven't had the time to investigate every nook and cranny). The split seems to be between people thinking Aris is just a straight up evil person, and others thinking of him more like a grandfather who's good at heart, but also kinda of socially tone deaf and casually uses the word "nigger" like it's nothing.
Yet "men are stronger" is just as likely to be a result of social expectations etc etc. Boys grow up playing sports and opening jars, girls grow up playing with dolls and not doing math, etc etc. Of course the adult versions turn out differently.
Aris was likely raised in an environment that nurtured sexism. The real tragedy here isn't that he's a dick but that he probably doesn't think he's wrong or that anyone thinks differently, and that when everything is said and done he'll still think sexism is perfectly acceptable as long as it's off-camera and nobody complains.
If that was the case, men and women would be a lot closer at the olympic level then they are.
When societal expectations are cast off and you spend years and years of your life training to be the best at what you do, if there were no real differences between the sexes than we'd notice.
Hmm, well yes there's always that consideration. I seriously doubt he's some kind of evil dude. Just not very bright when it comes to interacting with females at it would seem. He's not mentally challenged though (as far as I know), you should be able to identify the difference between what is right and what is wrong. If he's currently incapable of that well then I think a very strong reaction against how he acted might make him grow as a person. Coddling this behavior should be the very last option here.
Is this discussion actually happening right now?
FUCK. Double post again. I will remember to multiquote someday.
shindoku21
Member
I met Aris two years ago at Super Arcade (before Watson). He seemed like a nice guy. I would question his hygiene before his sexism. Dude stinks. I remember my friend, after he lost a match against him in 3s, saying something along the lines of him smelling like cigarettes, weed, and a hooker.
Okay I added the hooker part, but the rest-- true story.
Okay I added the hooker part, but the rest-- true story.
I guess it's not completely relevant... heh.
It is not.
"He seems like a nice guy but he smells like shit" Hahah. Ohhh this thread is awesome.
I multiquoted, go me!
Probably, but that's also at the extremes of human conditioning, and very few olympic events involve co-ed brawling to say who can take more of a beating so this is all kinda moot.
Behaviors are a different thing, though.
PsychoSoldier
Banned
There are a great many people trying to downplay the wrongness of what happened. We have a great deal of victim blaming going around.
I think that until these articles came about, people were very very likely to mostly just say "Oh, Aris", wag their finger at him and then allow things to go back to normal because he has a ton of friends in the community and he's been there awhile.
I get that people are reluctant to censure him in any way because of their friendship, but I think that his behavior will pretty much always remain as it is until there are some consequences for his actions. If the community aids and abetts him then well, I honestly don't know what to say.
I suspect, however, that this is going to be the case.
BladeoftheImmortal
Member
Would it be ok of they said kick her ass??
THIS!!!
Yes.
Except he was hurling out obscenities specific to her being a female. Complete fucking different. One is sexist, one is not.
Charoncaori
Member
Reading those news articles was fucking infuriating. I can't stand sexism. I hear people online saying women can't play fighting games because they're women, and it can be a big problem with the video game community in general. If someone says that online, it feels the same as if someone has said it to my face (which has also happened). I don't know where to begin with these people, and it makes me feel utterly powerless. It's like, they feel like women are lesser beings. What am I supposed to say to someone like that? They've already told me my opinion is worthless, so there is no logical argument I can make to convince them otherwise.
I wish there was something I could do besides walk out of the room/community. Maybe I'll approach the Capcom booth at PAX East and complain in person. I don't think it'll make a difference.
I wish there was something I could do besides walk out of the room/community. Maybe I'll approach the Capcom booth at PAX East and complain in person. I don't think it'll make a difference.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I get laughed at and stuff myself at places, you just brush it off and don't take it to heart. Outplay them, or use it as a drive to get better. Some people are just assholes. Online they have 30534038430 feet between you and them, and the asshole factor increases. The second you let things people say to you effect the fun you have with anything is the moment you stop having fun.
That and it's hard to accept criticism from people who have likely never had had any sort of interaction at all with the FGC if by chance they hadn't have stumbled on this incident and likely won't care at all when it's all said and done. And then those in the community that have spoken on it, have done so not as a means to attempt to improve the community, but rather to make it more ideal to profit from.
It is completely right to inform and push for change in the FGC. But I can understand if it comes off as someone stopping by on their high horse ready to push their social agenda on others, and then leave when they get bored.
...but if it promotes someone inside the FGC to step and say "hey, this needs to stop once and for all" then it's worth it. We will see. It would be cool to see an actual improvement, and those who started the fuss come back and possibly write a followup on how the community improved.
outunderthestars
Banned
The video I watched went beyond sexism into outright harassment. He said he was going to get close and smell her, while grilling her about her boyfriend. She repeatedly said not to, yet he ended up doing so anyway. That, coupled with the comments about her body and buying her a dress are more than enough to have you fired from most companies.
Social agenda? If anyone actually views standing up for a woman being sexually harassed as some kind of social agenda then I don't want to fucking speak to them.
Hah well, sexism and harassment put together equals sexual harassment.
But absolutely, it was incredibly aggressive in this case. That's what I'm finding fucked up about all of this as well.
I'm not sure if you're intent was to make the FGC come off as a super insecure and xenophobic group of people but, if it is, you just nailed it.
Charoncaori
Member
It's one thing to trash talk, it's another thing to say all other sexes and races are inferior to yours. They're not just insulting her, they're insulting women. People like that treat all women the same way, and it's not okay. It's not something you should have to just shrug off.
I've been going to fighting tournaments for a fairly long time and I've never seen more than a few women at the same tournament. It's a demographic that a lot of people in the fighting game community aren't used to, and it's embarrassing. It would take some incredibly thick skin to put up with this kind of crap, not just because of the language or the ignorance, but because you will basically always be the only one that the jokes are being directed towards. It's not like the racist jokes, because there's like forty [insert race here] guys; there's usually only one girl. If she's attractive, unattractive, tall, short, good, bad, she'll be hearing about it all day because she sticks out like a sore thumb just by being female. Nevermind that the words "bitch", "rape" and "whore" will invariably be uttered thousands of times.
Trash talk is a key component of the fighting game community. Sexism is not trash talk, as it is directed and specific. Sexism is not a key component of the fighting game community.
Fucking exactly. I have friends that are girls active in the gaming community that kind of go with that same mentality. In all fairness, you almost have to react that way considering the people you are dealing with most of the time at some of these kind of events.
You nailed it though, you might think it's sporting but that person is a sexist, through and through. Don't forget that. It's not okay.
outunderthestars
Banned
"People shouldn't be sexually harassed in general, and especially not by people in positions of authority over them" isn't a high horse. It's a fucking Shetland pony.
I think it will improve, and for the same reason anything ever improves: because somebody wanted to make more money. Being an insular community with prominent bullshit that turns off a lot more people than it attracts isn't conducive to making money playing (or broadcasting or commenting on) videogames.
It's not out of the realm of possibility. And I agree, it is despicable.
Obviously when dealing with an entire community there is more to it than that, there is no sense in trying to paint the entire community with broad strokes.
The point i'm trying to make is it's not quite a simple situation to deal with.
PsychoSoldier
Banned
It may be hard to accept criticism from people outside the FGC's little pocket of the universe, but perspective from an outsider is almost always useful.
When people start acting all defensive even on things that are clearly wrong you know there's something off.
True. I was not trying to argue, as much as agree and expand on what you've said.
DryEyeRelief
Member
Only when it's informed.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Insulting a crippled person about being crippled and having no chance at the game is just trash talk? Oh okay.
I'm not talking from a regular perspective of everyday gamer dude number what ever, I'm talking from life experience about people in general being assholes because "I'm Different". It's the same shit for girls in the community its the same thing for ricky ortiz.
People are immature assholes, but that's not everyone. The problem is the assholes are normally the loudest.
No that's a huge misunderstanding, I was trying to get the point across that you were super downplaying my message as insignificant because I'm a guy so it's standard trash talk. And no I don't condone it for the most part, trash talk should be reserved between close friends that know you don't mean it. I do play like a jackass and seriousness though for my flavor of trolling. So yeah I'm still an asshole myself at times.
I was simply saying it's not right for that type of trash talk, but it's also up to the victims to stay strong through it if they truly love what they are doing and to not let it get them down. Random jack ass number what ever shouldn't mean shit to you.
...uh, what? That's terrible
Eh life deals random cards for everyone, I deal with it.
...uh, what? That's terrible
FunkyMunkey
Banned
Some people in here like zlatko putting some blame on the girl in this instance... what the fuck? There's like 10 posts specifically in this topic from zlatko saying the same thing repeatedly, that aris isn't completely at fault.
Seriously... What???
Yeah. Same here. I'm wondering if any of these people have problems functioning socially in the real world.
Seriously... What???
Yeah. Same here. I'm wondering if any of these people have problems functioning socially in the real world.
Charoncaori
Member
Personally, I don't think ANY kind of trash talk is okay, beyond the "I'm gonna kick your ass!" level. I don't think anyone should be insulted because of their background, physical appearance, sexual preference, anything. I sigh every time someone uses the word "fag." But I'm not going to come in here and start saying "stop trash-talking altogether", because that seems to be crossing a line. If people want to insult each other based on their past playing history or whatever, that seems fair game. But using slurs isn't the same thing.
Basically, I just don't understand what you're saying. No, I don't think that's okay. What exactly did I say to give you that idea?
I really want the name of this thread changed to just "Aspergers Megamix 2012". Although, that's also really offensive.
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