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[ItWasMeantToBe19]

I think it will be hard for Lebron to ever live up to his expectations. He came in at 18 with the notion of being a top 20 player.

But he hasn't won anything, yet. And his game hasn't really changed for long-term sustainability when he gets past 30. And he's been top 2 in his conference record wise what, 4 times already? Going on 5 and a few more after.

If he doesn't retire without at least 3 titles as the clear cut best player, he will fall short of expectations coming in and his first few years in the league. Hard not to see around that.


The fact that he left to team up with wade and bosh already taints everything he does.

If LeBron wins a title with Miami, he's easily a top 20 player. If he wins one soon, you can argue him even over Malone or KG or Robinson who are in many top 15s.

 

[linsivvi]

Memphis @ Toronto
New Jersey @ Boston
Milwaukee @ Atlanta
Chicago @ Cleveland
Dallas @ New Orleans
Denver @ Houston
Golden State @ Philly
Charlotte @ San Antonio
Miami @ Utah
Sacramento @ LA Lakers
LA Clippers @ Phoenix

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

Well I guess I don't care what irrational thinkers have to say then. Same way I feel about people who don't think scientifically, and think with their emotions. I disregard that shit.

Yeah, his finals have been pretty bad thus far, we've been over this

I feel like I'm polluting the thread so we can stop talking about this till playoff time

You can't really disregard how he got his chips if he gets them.

 

[The M.O.B]

I love the kings bench

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqR8GroqJ2U

Too bad their coach would rather have Reke chucking away their lead rather than putting Jimma in.

 

[Justin Timberlake]

In fact, here is a challenge.

Find me the following for Lebron James during the regular season:

4 straight games where he shot less than 36FG% (2007 Finals)
4 straight games where he shot less than 26FG% (2008 Semi-Finals, first four games)
3 straight games where he shot less than 34FG% and averaged more than 6TOV (2010 Semi-Finals, last three games)
6 straight games where he averaged less than 18PPG (2011 Finals)

Here, I'll even make it easy for you:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pstreak.cgi?player=jamesle01

Spoiler:

Spoiler

He never ever has had streaks of games like that during the regular season. Ever. Ever. It's all unique to him in the playoffs.

God this is so damning...

well done reilo

Great players have shit series. This is a fact.

Timmy has never had a shit series.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

Why you no ever on irc anymore?

Been busy these last couple of days, how was your vacay?

 

[Black Mamba]

If LeBron wins a title with Miami, he's easily a top 20 player. If he wins one soon, you can argue him even over Malone or KG or Robinson who are in many top 15s.

Top 20 player wasn't the point. I only used that to show how good people expected him to be.

What I'm talking about is expectations in terms of career. That's why Wilt is such a great corrolary for him. Wilt won 2 titles, 1 when he was not the man. Wilt had an unbelievable individual career statistically and is arguably the GOAT, but did his career live up to expectations? I'd say no.

 

[Justin Timberlake]

Memphis @ Toronto
New Jersey @ Boston
Milwaukee @ Atlanta
Chicago @ Cleveland
Dallas @ New Orleans
Denver @ Houston
Golden State @ Philly
Charlotte @ San Antonio
Miami @ Utah
Sacramento @ LA Lakers
LA Clippers @ Phoenix

 

[Black Mamba]

Timmy has never had a shit series.

Last year was pretty bad. 46% for Timmy? He even had a 6 & 7 game.

He didn't play bad against Lakers in '01 outside one game, but the Lakers did take a collective dump on that team.

 

[Vahagn]

Sounds about right

 

[linsivvi]

If LeBron wins a title with Miami, he's easily a top 20 player. If he wins one soon, you can argue him even over Malone or KG or Robinson who are in many top 15s.

I don't see how you can just say that. It would entirely depends on the manner how Miami wins. What if the Heat wins a title with LeBron playing poorly and the rest of the team carrying the load? What if he played a decent series but Wade was the clear cut better player in the series and wins the final MVP?

 

[jordan0386]

I don't see how you can just say that. It would entirely depends on the manner how Miami wins. What if the Heat wins a title with LeBron playing poorly and the rest of the team carrying the load? What if he played a decent series but Wade was the clear cut better player in the series and wins the final MVP?

But we know this isnt going to happen. We should not hang on to it.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

Disregarding the human factor in sports is just as irrational.

The National Basketball Association is not a series of simulations, c'mon now. As Dy said, you're the completely irrational one to think that the human factor has zero basis in sports.

Human factor is overrated. Really. Things tend to even out. Great players tend to win big and win championships. Win shares statistically reward winners. Jordan had high WS, LeBron has very hih WS....The emotional factors tend to not matter. As I said before, a lot of the advanced basketball stats have high R^2 values.

This was kind of a tangent though. The irrationality that I was referring to was people following narratives. Things like alpha player, clutchness, "will to win" and shit like that are so subjective they're near useless when actually trying to reason through what has happened. I completely agree with that LeBron will probably always get flack for his playoff performances, regardless of his future performance. That doesn't mean its not fucking dumb.

By the way, people don't give Kobe or Magic shit for refusing to go to teams other than their Lakers when they were being drafted. They knew you needed all stars to have a legit chance to win. Not that that was as bad as Bron's shitty decision show, but yeah.

 

[Black Mamba]

But we know this isnt going to happen. We should not hang on to it.

But this is exactly how Miami almost beat Dallas...

 

[reilo]

Barkley, Malone, Payton, Drexler, Ewing, Garnett, Nique, Robinson, all say you are dead wrong.

 

[Black Mamba]

Barkley, Malone, Peyton, Drexler, Ewing, Garnett, Nique, all say you are dead wrong.

Damn, Manning was near GOAT in 2 sports?

Spoiler

sorry

 

[reilo]

Damn, Manning was near GOAT in 2 sports?

Spoiler

sorry

Fix it before BA sees it!!!

 

[Justin Timberlake]

Last year was pretty bad. 46% for Timmy? He even had a 6 & 7 game.

He didn't play bad against Lakers in '01 outside one game, but the Lakers did take a collective dump on that team.

Last year was his worst series.

12.7 pts, 10.5 rebs, 2.7 ast, 2.5 blks on 48% shooting isn't terrible for his age, especially since he was apparently still injured.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

By the way, people don't give Kobe or Magic shit for refusing to go to teams other than their Lakers when they were being drafted. They knew you needed all stars to have a legit chance to win. Not that that was as bad as Bron's shitty decision show, but yeah.

Lakers had the number 1 pick WTF are you talking about?

 

[Justin Timberlake]

Human factor is overrated. Really. Things tend to even out. Great players tend to win big and win championships. Win shares statistically reward winners. Jordan had high WS, LeBron has very hih WS....The emotional factors tend to not matter. As I said before, a lot of the advanced basketball stats have high R^2 values.

This was kind of a tangent though. The irrationality that I was referring to was people following narratives. Things like alpha player, clutchness, "will to win" and shit like that are so subjective they're near useless when actually trying to reason through what has happened. I completely agree with that LeBron will probably always get flack for his playoff performances, regardless of his future performance. That doesn't mean its not fucking dumb.

Have you ever played anything competitively dude? At a high level?

Pressure is a huge factor. I don't care if it doesn't show up in some bullshit stat.

Being clutch isn't really a "gene" its something you work on by putting yourself in uncomfortable situations over and over and over.

By the way, people don't give Kobe shit for refusing to go to teams other than their Lakers when they were being drafted

yes they do yes they do yes they do yes they do

i bring it up all the time..

 

[Black Mamba]

By the way, people don't give Kobe or Magic shit for refusing to go to teams other than their Lakers when they were being drafted. They knew you needed all stars to have a legit chance to win. Not that that was as bad as Bron's shitty decision show, but yeah.

WTF. Kobe a huge gamble pick at the time and a pick. Anyone could have taken him. They just didn't want to deal with him.

Lebron chose to team up with his biggest rival.

Ninja addressed Magic.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

There's a reason why people dumped on Bron, because what he did was in the face of what most fans accept as 'the right way'.

Teamed up with a top 5 pf and the second best SG on the SG's team, leaving CLE in the dark the whole time, proclaiming his greatness, promising 8 chips...

People are tough on him and he brought upon himself.

 

[Heel]

someone w/ photoshop skills needs to put a MF DOOM mask on Kobe. i'd be forever grateful.

http://digitalgravel.myshopify.com/products/kobe-doom-t-shirt-white

 

[Noirulus]

There's a reason why people dumped on Bron, because what he did was in the face of what most fans accept as 'the right way'.

Teamed up with a top 5 pf and the second best SG on the SG's team, leaving CLE in the dark the whole time, proclaiming his greatness, promising 8 chips...

People are tough on him and he brought upon himself.

Pretty much. I was fine with his antics up until he promised 7/8 chips. I mean wtf was he thinking when he said that?

 

[Vahagn]

Human factor is overrated. Really. Things tend to even out. Great players tend to win big and win championships. Win shares statistically reward winners. Jordan had high WS, LeBron has very hih WS....The emotional factors tend to not matter. As I said before, a lot of the advanced basketball stats have high R^2 values.

This was kind of a tangent though. The irrationality that I was referring to was people following narratives. Things like alpha player, clutchness, "will to win" and shit like that are so subjective they're near useless when actually trying to reason through what has happened. I completely agree with that LeBron will probably always get flack for his playoff performances, regardless of his future performance. That doesn't mean its not fucking dumb.

By the way, people don't give Kobe or Magic shit for refusing to go to teams other than their Lakers when they were being drafted. They knew you needed all stars to have a legit chance to win. Not that that was as bad as Bron's shitty decision show, but yeah.

What kind of crack are you smoking? You've never been on a team with a clear cut alpha player who had a crazy will to win and never got phased in crunch time? You honestly, genuinely, don't know the value of something like this? You're right, all coaches, all basketball analysts that had something to do with highly competitive basketball all talk about those things and yet you de-value them because they are subjective?


It's not subjective to say that Lebron James, has, up to this point, played HORRIBLY below his standards in every single finals game he's ever played. How is it that people can say things like the "the game is mostly mental" and yet you completely ignore the mental aspect of the game (will to win, competitive drive, basketball iq, inner confidence, not having a fear of failure) and act like "if it can't be measured by today's tools and measurements it's irrelevant"

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

http://digitalgravel.myshopify.com/products/kobe-doom-t-shirt-white

My gawd that is sexy.

 

[reilo]

Even Vaggy is going HAM on Coffee?

My work is done here Good luck, Coffee!

 

[iamshadowlark]

Lakers had the number 1 pick WTF are you talking about?

Im sure we've had this argument before but it is well known that Magic was planning to go back to college if he didn't get drafted by a top team.

 

[SUPREME1]

Human factor is overrated. Really. Things tend to even out.

Smh.

Unless LeBron wins out for the rest of his career, things won't "even out". Because the playoffs have ended in failure every single year he's been in the league.

 

[DY_nasty]

Even Vaggy is going HAM on Coffee?

My work is done here Good luck, Coffee!

 

[Justin Timberlake]

Im sure we've had this argument before but it is well known that Magic was planning to go back to college if he didn't get drafted by a top team.

yup

this league is rigged

10 Laker rings = 1 Spur ring

commonly known fact

 

[Vahagn]

Most rational people can look at a few Minny games and conclude that Ricky Rubio is a naturally gifted playmaker and passer who sees the game the way a pure point guard sees the game, has a high basketball IQ, and can see the play a few passes in advance.


Guess what? Every single one of these things are mental assessments. Then some dumbass can look at the box score of last nights game, see he only had 2 assists, see that he averages a high number of TO's compared to someone like Steve Nash, and then conclude "Nope he's a poor man's Jason Williams"


If you're not willing to make any kind of subjective assessments about a person's mental game, then don't make any at all. Don't just argue against the ones that are damning to Lebron James.


Let's all agree that we can't tell whether Javale McGee is a smart basketball player, or Kwame Brown doesn't have leadership intangibles, or Tim Duncan has a high basketball IQ, because, you know...subjective and what not

 

[hobz360]

Memphis @ Toronto
New Jersey @ Boston
Milwaukee @ Atlanta
Chicago @ Cleveland
Dallas @ New Orleans
Denver @ Houston
Golden State @ Philly
Charlotee @ San Antonio
Miami @ Utah
Sacramento @ LA Lakers
LA Clippers @ Phoenix

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=o124_S-qGd0 Haha, fucking hilarious!

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Im sure we've had this argument before but it is well known that Magic was planning to go back to college if he didn't get drafted by a top team.

Funny because Magic (unlike LeBron) won a championship in college and in fact the previous year after losing in the tournament said he only was coming back to State in order to win a national championship. He did that. The Lakers happened to have the top pick.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

Im sure we've had this argument before but it is well known that Magic was planning to go back to college if he didn't get drafted by a top team.

Still so so sooooo far from what Lebron did.


annnnd TCB just agreed with you.

 

[reilo]

 

[Iron E Man]

Forgot it was Friday.

Memphis @ Toronto
New Jersey @ Boston
Milwaukee @ Atlanta
Chicago @ Cleveland
Dallas @ New Orleans
Denver @ Houston
Golden State @ Philly
Charlotee @ San Antonio
Miami @ Utah
Sacramento @ LA Lakers
LA Clippers @ Phoenix

 

[iamshadowlark]

Funny because Magic (unlike LeBron) won a championship in college and in fact the previous year after losing in the tournament said he only was coming back to State in order to win a national championship. He did that. The Lakers happened to have the top pick.

Lebron didn't even goto college so WTF is your point?

 

[Justin Timberlake]

Funny because Magic (unlike LeBron) won a championship in college and in fact the previous year after losing in the tournament said he only was coming back to State in order to win a national championship. He did that. The Lakers happened to have the top pick.

The Lakers happened to have a top pick

aren't you cute

 

[Vahagn]

The Lakers happened to have a top pick

aren't you cute

cry moar

 

[Black Mamba]

Marc Stein
Lamar Odom's agent, Jeff Schwartz, issues statement in response to speculation that Mavs ordered Odom to go to D-League. Quotes follow ...

Marc Stein
Schwartz: "Whole idea of going to D–League was Lamar’s. He proposed it to Mavs; they never asked him. He wanted to get some floor time ...

Something abuzz on from the MIT SSAC about optical tracking, i think I basketball? Do want to see.

 

[iamshadowlark]

The Lakers happened to have a top pick

aren't you cute

Magic Johnson would have returned to Michigan State rather than play for the Chicago Bulls.

“I’d have stayed in school,” he said here Tuesday, standing alone outside Gate 3 1/2 of Chicago Stadium, the house that could have been his. “A coin toss changed the course of my whole life.”

“I wouldn’t have played here,” Johnson said on the eve of Game 2 of the NBA finals between his team and the team that could have been his. “The only reason I came out was to play with Kareem and the Lakers.“

So fearless.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Lebron didn't even goto college so WTF is your point?

*Looks at LeBron's number of years in the NBA, sees 9, sees 0 championships*

*snicker*

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

The Lakers happened to have a top pick

aren't you cute

Well not all franchises are so dedicated to winning that they'd tank an entire season in order to get the top pic for that years draft.

 

[Black Mamba]

So fearless.

Magic was a college student coming out early. Lebron was the best player in the game in his prime joining his direct rival.

Do you see the difference, yet? As other #1s have proven, nothing is a guarantee.

 

[iamshadowlark]

*Looks at LeBron's number of years in the NBA, sees 9, sees 0 championships*

*snicker*

 

[Justin Timberlake]

Well not all franchises are so dedicated to winning that they'd tank an entire season in order to get the top pic for that years draft.

Yes, noble franchises like the Lakers prefer to rig the league instead. Don't have to mess with those ugly losing seasons that way.

 

[Boombloxer]

Human factor is overrated. Really. Things tend to even out. Great players tend to win big and win championships. Win shares statistically reward winners. Jordan had high WS, LeBron has very hih WS....The emotional factors tend to not matter. As I said before, a lot of the advanced basketball stats have high R^2 values.

This was kind of a tangent though. The irrationality that I was referring to was people following narratives. Things like alpha player, clutchness, "will to win" and shit like that are so subjective they're near useless when actually trying to reason through what has happened. I completely agree with that LeBron will probably always get flack for his playoff performances, regardless of his future performance. That doesn't mean its not fucking dumb.

By the way, people don't give Kobe or Magic shit for refusing to go to teams other than their Lakers when they were being drafted. They knew you needed all stars to have a legit chance to win. Not that that was as bad as Bron's shitty decision show, but yeah.

Except that this can change:

"Kobe will never win without Shaq"
*3 trips, 2 chips*
"Nothing left to prove, top 10 all time".

I get what you mean, but Lebron has had great performances in the playoffs, that looking back, seem like flukes when compared to the amount of bad games he's had. Every time he has a chance to change the narrative...he comes up short. That's the problem.

And Magic came via #1 pick, not quite the same. Kobe? Yep, he pretty much said he'd only play for L.A.

The other reason people don't give them shit now? They have 5 rings apiece.
Magic caught shit for his playoff performances (Tragic Johnson), for getting a coach fired. Kobe's caught shit for multiple things. Winning flips the script.

Bron has no rings. He has no rings with him as the alpha and was swept in the Finals. He has no rings with help. Until he does, nothing is going to change, and why should it? He brought it on himself with past comments, actions and ill-advised decisions. The only way to change that is to win, period. Not one, not two, but multiple.

And you can say what you want about clutch, etc, but certain guys just get it done--MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Worthy, that shit is earned. Bron has failed more often than he's succeeded, especially when the stakes have been higher.

This is what reilo's data says. This is the narrative. You know what will change it? Him winning in the playoffs and not suddenly turning into a bigger version of Vince Carter.

 

[DY_nasty]

Yes, noble franchises like the Lakers prefer to rig the league instead. Don't have to mess with those ugly losing seasons that way.

I love how we got the #4 pick in our expansion year after Stern let Shinn bend Charlotte over a table.

 

[charsace]

Vert and explosion are two different things... I know that's your boy, and he is athletic, but he's not draft day top 5 pick athletic. Never was.

He was always a really smooth athlete and a very good run and jump one too. Too bad my Steve Smith comparison was the reality.

And lol at Lebron being top 20 player because he wins a title. That would mean Bird, Dr J and Barry are all top 20 players too.