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[aeolist]

I wonder if the people in this thread, accusing the burly dwarf image of being a homophobic slur, could watch Turkish oil wrestling and not instantly think everyone there was gay (which usually, they aren't). Just sayin.

I always assumed straight guys could appreciate well-defined men without any sexuality coming into it.

using a bunch of naked muscly dudes as a response to someone criticizing you for your depiction of women is pretty clear.

everyone here knows what he meant and why he said it, so just own up and say that you're fine with calling people gay as an insult if that's the way you feel. i might respect you a bit more for it.

 

[V_Arnold]

Here you go, put it in imgur:

(This design is INFINITELY better than those abominations that are the sorceress/amazon/whatever. Infinitely. But hey, preferences... )

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Well yeah, no point in arguing the gameplay, seeing Vanillaware's track record, which will be pretty shitty.

Really? So what's the point? Are the games just masturbation material for people with elephantiasis fetishes?

 

[Moral Panic]

What's the problem with a creator designing a game specifically to fit his own tastes? Kamitani is the only reason Dragon's Crown even exists which, to begin with, is a niche game that has a very specific target audience. There are much better targets for righteous rage.

Doesn't make it free from criticism.

 

[Lime]

What a lot of arguing over a game with such shitty art.

Apparently people don't like when their privilege of sexually pandering female characters in media is challenged and criticized.

 

[aeolist]

Works without tha apostrophe after Dragon

ah good

i think that looks fine? i don't see how it negates the horrible sorceress design though

 

[ssoass]

As a point of reference, here are some screenshots of this game in action.

 

[Dyno]

Schreier writes an article talking about how women are portrayed in Kamitan's game. Kamitan responds with a picture of three men acting seductively and says "Maybe this more to your liking." What else are you supposed to take away from that?! It's being disingenuous to suggest it's anything but a glorified haha ur gay response. Just because he didn't spell it out doesn't mean that he can't be taken to task for it.

This glosses over Schreier's culpability in this exchange. What he wrote was unprofessional and ignorant. He unwittingly called Kamitan a teenager, which is a disrespectful insult, because Kamitan is older than Jason. It's understandable why younger people would ignore this, ageism isn't the hot-button topic that homophobia is these days.

There is also the dynamic between a critic and an artist, which I sometimes liken to the relationship between a jackal and a lion. Kamitan does the work, Schreier talks about the work, the two are not equal. For that alone Scheieir should be more respectful and professional.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

..

 

[SolidSnakex]

Apparently people don't like when their privilege of sexually pandering female characters is challenged and criticized.

No, people don't like being called sexist, misogynist, childish etc. simply because they like certain art.

 

[RMI]

ugh, you know I usually like it when Jason posts on GAF. He tends to have insightful comments about whatever is going on in any given thread. His post on Kotaku is straight-up trolling click-bait of the worst kind; devoid of any actual commentary.

I'm a fan of Kamitani's artwork and think his response is hilarious. His character designs for Dragon's Crown are also miles beyond what we see in most games in terms of diversity.

 

[buddha0991]

Now, as a statement, not on either side because everyone is crazy, but god damn that game looks beautiful.

 

[2San]

Really? So what's the point? Are the games just masturbation material for people with elephantiasis fetishes?

No idea, some people like horribly bland games gameplaywise. I'm not one to judge.

 

[antitrop]

Those screenshots are amazing, I need this game as soon as possible. Will be the first Vita game I've bought since last Summer.

 

[Metrotab]

Apparently people don't like when their privilege of sexually pandering female characters in media is challenged and criticized.

I don't like it when people are being insulted and put down for liking certain types of character design.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

No, people don't like being called sexist, misogynist, childish etc. simply because they like certain art.

Can I tell them they have appalling taste instead?

 

[Wellscha]

He likes the artstyle. So what?. I'm not defending his rambling, but I certainly don't see how liking and using Dragon's Crown art as avatars makes people arguments any less valid.

And this is how vicious cycle of women being objectified will never end. The same way the art medium has moved away from slavery and racial discrimination, games has to move away from drawing and portraying sexualized women.

 

[MechaX]

(This design is INFINITELY better than those abominations that are the sorceress/amazon/whatever. Infinitely. But hey, preferences... )

And what do you know; he could have refuted Schreier's point by just being like "Hey, I can draw women that are not super-sexualized; hell, this one is even a playable character!"

 

[shysaursoft]

using a bunch of naked muscly dudes as a response to someone criticizing you for your depiction of women is pretty clear.

everyone here knows what he meant and why he said it, so just own up and say that you're fine with calling people gay as an insult if that's the way you feel. i might respect you a bit more for it.

Your assumption that naked muscly dudes could only imply homophobic slur, is what interests me. Regardless: being gay, I'm not fine with calling people gay as an insult. I don't do it, I don't expect my friends to do it, but I've long since stopped trying to crusade against it. It'll pass in time, like most of these things do.

Don't assume you know how I feel about anything, and I neither want nor need the respect of a stranger on forum. Especially not one who seems right now, to be out on a crusade, and is willing to attack anyone in sight who doesn't instantly align with their views.

Now back to looking at Turkish oil wrasslin'

 

[AlimNassor]

wtf

how can you people think this is ok

Why don't we just ban sex?

 

[Kinyou]

i know this is rly hard for you people to understand

but

sexism against women is a bigger problem than sexism against men

it may not seem "fair" to you but women being an oppressed class for most of recorded history and still being underprivileged compared to men is actually less fair so you can go fuck yourselves if you don't like it

Is saying "my problem is bigger than yours" really the right approach? I mean by that logic people could easily say "but in africa people are starving, that's a far bigger problem than sexism in the media, lets focus on that first"

Can't we just fight for both sides?

 

[Skilletor]

awesome

I can't wait for this game.

Here you go, put it in imgur:

(This design is INFINITELY better than those abominations that are the sorceress/amazon/whatever. Infinitely. But hey, preferences... )

What if I like them all?

 

[Dead Man]

Doesn't look like sex at all, and even if it was, so what?



Boy and now it got personal, I'm out.

Since you don't like that style of woman, here's some naked males rubbing shoulders. Is this a correct summation of his response according to you?

 

[7Th]

Doesn't make it free from criticism.

But this entire discussion seems like a matter of taste; there is no real criticism being given. Either people find the design grotesque due to the exaggeration or interesting/appealing in its daringness. That's pretty much it.

 

[Takamura-San]

This glosses over Schreier's culpability in this exchange. What he wrote was unprofessional and ignorant. He unwittingly called Kamitan a teenager, which is a disrespectful insult, because Kamitan is older than Jason. It's understandable why younger people would ignore this, ageism isn't the hot-button topic that homophobia is these days.

There is also the dynamic between a critic and an artist, which I sometimes liken to the relationship between a jackal and a lion. Kamitan does the work, Schreier talks about the work, the two are not equal. For that alone Scheieir should be more respectful and professional.

I'm sorry but Kamitani is not a Deity, he deserves as much respect as the work that he puts out. His depictions of women on the game are Juvenile. He was called as such. His retort further emphasizes how he thinks.

 

[robotzombie]

"It seems that Mr. JASON SCHREIER of kotaku is pleased also with neither sorceress nor amazon."

I think this sentence is pretty clear. Schreier doesn't like how the two characters look.


"The art of the direction which likes was prepared."

So how the hell does this end up as "Well surprise, I draw oversexualized men in this game too!"

and not

"Here's some of the art that he likes."

The guy cherry picked two examples to complain about in a game where the entire artstyle is achieving the same message - "exaggeration", so the joke is that he obviously has no problem with the male characters since he didn't complain about them, so he drew a completely extreme example. Equal but opposite reactions are very often used as jokes.

 

[V_Arnold]

No, people don't like being called sexist, misogynist, childish etc. simply because they like certain art.

Uhm....then maybe those people can start with not calling out "White Knighting" every time someone points a finger at a design that MIGHT fuel certain cliches?

I mean... if someone says to me that the thing I like is discriminating against women, is it an attack against me? Do I really have to interpret it that way? I do not know why it must be interpreted as an attack againt me, personally.

And what do you know; he could have refuted Schreier's point by just being like "Hey, I can draw women that are not super-sexualized; hell, this one is even a playable character!"

...or this, yep. The mere assumption that if you do not like "over-sexualized" women then you must want over-sexualized man instead is pretty dumb

 

[Raticus79]

[...]Again, we dont know if it was intended as an insult. Though, in general, while accusing someone of being gay isnt an insult per se (despite intent), as theres nothing wrong with being gay, the fact that the person using the insult thinks its an insult is indeed a problem. But we dont know if that was the case here.

Nope, there are plenty of other interpreations of Mr Kamitani's response that dont interpet it as either a) an insult, b) a veiled accusation of homosexuality or c) both.

I agree with the neutral position on this one. I think the response "He don't like my sexy women. Here are some sexy men for him instead" was intended to be funny. The art is awesome. The statement could have been made by someone who was comfortable with people of all orientations. I think somebody feeling mean-spirited wouldn't have gone to all the trouble of making some full-colour art for a response, and would have just cut them down more directly.

On the other hand, it's easy to see why people are offended.

 

[cutmeamango]

And what do you know; he could have refuted Schreier's point by just being like "Hey, I can draw women that are not super-sexualized; hell, this one is even a playable character!"

But he shouldn't. He didn't hid all the other art, it's in the game and promotional material.

 

[Shig]

Schreier writes an article talking about how women are portrayed in Kamitan's game. Kamitan responds with a picture of three men acting seductively and says "Maybe this more to your liking." What else are you supposed to take away from that?! It's being disingenuous to suggest it's anything but a glorified haha ur gay response. Just because he didn't spell it out doesn't mean that he can't be taken to task for it.

The default Japanese portrayals of 'gay' are just so over-the-top and whimsical it's hard to characterize them as coming from a bad place. They're caricatures and they're definitely poking fun, but they never strike me as anything in the ballpark of malicious. 'Childish' sums them up pretty well, but not necessarily in a bad way, just that they have kind of a fanciful naivete on the subject.

 

[Gravijah]

And what do you know; he could have refuted Schreier's point by just being like "Hey, I can draw women that are not super-sexualized; hell, this one is even a playable character!"

Which is the entire point of this thread. The art design of female character isn't the purpose of this thread; it was that he insulted him by essentially saying "you are gay."

If he had refuted in any civilized manner, there would be no problem. It doesn't even have to be civilized, he could have straight up insulted him back.

The default Japanese portrayals of 'gay' are just so over-the-top and whimsical it's hard to characterize them as coming from a bad place. They're caricatures and they're definitely poking fun, but they never strike me as anything in the ballpark of malicious. 'Childish' sums them up pretty well, but not necessarily in a bad way, just that they have kind of a fanciful naivete on the subject.

Homosexuality is a joke in Japan. 100% a joke. That's just as insulting as the hate filled venom found in other cultures. It's made fun of, and it's a taboo.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

And this is how vicious cycle of women being objectified will never end. The same way the art medium has moved away from slavery and racial discrimination, games has to move away from drawing and portraying sexualized women.

Easy there friend, sexualised art is fine and very healthy. The real problem here is that this art is shit.

 

[nailbombxx]

Can I tell them they have appalling taste instead?

Yeah, how dare people like women who look very womanly! I'd suggest you to take a look at the game's screen shots.

 

[aeolist]

Is saying "my problem is bigger than yours" really the right approach? I mean then people could say "but in africa people are starving, that's a far bigger problem"

Can't we just fight for both sides?

sure go for it, people should fight against whatever problems speak to them.

just don't deny the existence and relative severity of sexism against women if you're going to fight for better depictions of men.

 

[Dead Man]

Yeah, how dare people like women who look very womanly! I'd suggest you to take a look at the game's screen shots.

How dare people have an opinion of a piece of art!!

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Yeah, how dare people like women who look very womanly! I'd suggest you to take a look at the game's screen shots.

Have you ever seen a woman? Like, ever?

 

[SmokyDave]

i know this is rly hard for you people to understand

but

sexism against women is a bigger problem than sexism against men

it may not seem "fair" to you but women being an oppressed class for most of recorded history and still being underprivileged compared to men is actually less fair so you can go fuck yourselves if you don't like it

"IT'S ART" ISN'T AN IMPENETRABLE DEFENSE

ART CAN BE SEXIST TOO

DEAR LORD

Do you find people respond well to this style of communication?

 

[nailbombxx]

Easy there friend, sexualised art is fine and very healthy. The real problem here is that this art is shit.

You must have some really, really complex taste for art or absolutely none at all.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

To say that others are feigning outrage is both disingenuous and insulting. What reason would there be?

People don't think calling someone a boy ( plus the meaning behind it) and his work cheap a big insult .
Still different people find certain insult more offensive than others and J. Schreier had no idea how offensive it would be to Kamitani so saying one worse than other means nothing IMO.

 

[SYNTAX182]

Easy there friend, sexualised art is fine and very healthy. The real problem here is that this art is shit.

The style is subjective but his technique is "well developed"

 

[SolidSnakex]

Can I tell them they have appalling taste instead?

It's art, so you can choose to dislike it just as I can choose to like it. But once you start name calling, as many have in this thread, you're going to start pissing people off. The same thing started in the Sorceress thread when Jackson popped in and claimed that Kamitani was a misogynist because of that design.

 

[Muchi Muchi Pink]

everyone here knows what he meant and why he said it, so just own up and say that you're fine with calling people gay as an insult if that's the way you feel. i might respect you a bit more for it.

No, we don't know for sure.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

"It seems that Mr. JASON SCHREIER of kotaku is pleased also with neither sorceress nor amazon."

I think this sentence is pretty clear. Schreier doesn't like how the two characters look.


"The art of the direction which likes was prepared."

So how the hell does this end up as "Well
surprise, I draw oversexualized men in this game too!"

and not

"Here's some of the art that he
likes."

"The art of the direction which likes was prepared."

Isn't even a sentence. It could just as easily
say "I get that he doesn't like how they look, but here is the art style for men in the game as well. The game was prepared with this art
style in mind throughout the game."

And

"Here's some of the art that he likes"

Could easily mean "Maybe he will enjoy other character models from the game since he doesn't like the female designs"

I'm not saying that that's what he's saying, but its ridiculous to claim that you know what he meant through a broken English translation.

 

[aeolist]

Do you find people respond well to this style of communication?

depends on what you're going for

i know nobody here is going to change his or her mind so i'm really just looking to draw out the most ridiculous responses possible

so far so good

 

[jim-jam bongs]

You must have some really, really complex taste for art or absolutely none at all.

Well I do have a degree in fine arts with a major in art history and theory, but my taste could still be terrible. I'm just better at intellectualising it.

 

[Dyno]

ugh, you know I usually like it when Jason posts on GAF. He tends to have insightful comments about whatever is going on in any given thread. His post on Kotaku is straight-up trolling click-bait of the worst kind; devoid of any actual commentary.

Quoting and bolded for the truth.

I'm a fan of Kamitani's artwork and think his response is hilarious. His character designs for Dragon's Crown are also miles beyond what we see in most games in terms of diversity.

Also true. I wish I could draw as well as what we've seen out of this game.

 

[AlimNassor]

Apparently people don't like when their privilege of sexually pandering female characters in media is challenged and criticized.

yes, I'm a total monster for not being outraged. Apparently i have some bizarre privilege that makes me unable to comment on anything because I'm a man and I'm a sexist. Women half-naked? terrible. Men half naked with giant muscles? Power fantasy. because after all we men are all the same. We all think the same way!

 

[Neuromancer]

Now, as a statement, not on either side because everyone is crazy, but god damn that game looks beautiful.

Those screenshots are amazing, I need this game as soon as possible. Will be the first Vita game I've bought since last Summer.

Yeah to be honest I didn't know the game existed until this thread, but it looks really nice. Sorry Jason!

using a bunch of naked muscly dudes as a response to someone criticizing you for your depiction of women is pretty clear.

everyone here knows what he meant and why he said it, so just own up and say that you're fine with calling people gay as an insult if that's the way you feel. i might respect you a bit more for it.

I disagree, I think there's a more innocent way to read it. 'Oh you don't like the way I draw women? Well here are some dudes.' I really don't think it's sinister or homophobic; just a smartass response to being publicly insulted.

 

[AkuMifune]

It's art, so you can choose to dislike it just as I can choose to like it. But once you start name calling, as many have in this thread, you're going to start pissing people off. The same thing started in the Sorceress thread when Jackson popped in and claimed that Kamitani was a misogynist because of that design.

Oh, I can agree with that. These designs are pretty horrid. I mean the article was written by a 14-year old too, but still, we've got to grow up past this kind of immature art design.

 

[V_Arnold]

What if I like them all?

Good for you then?

I mean, I am sure you could point out the two (four) things or meatbags that are missing from the Ranger girl's body, right? In comparison to that other two character designs? Or that the proportions are different with her?

To put things in perspective, I REALLY, REALLY disliked Bayonetta's design because of the proportions. I love the game itself, and her style has indeed grown on me over time, but it is still not a body of a human being. Understandable if someone does not like it, imho.