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Dragon's Crown (Vanillaware PS3/PSV) Sorceress Trailer
- Thread starter Takao
- Start date
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I completely agree honestly. This thread has turned into a mess.
I wouldn't mind a general gameplay analysis thread but not one specifically for the sorc.
Huh you mean this wasn't that thread? Oh geez poor lime must of got his topics mixed up.
yeah I agree it's super sad that this thread turned into such a mess. I know Lime has promised not to shit all over the eventual OT, but I hope the rest of the speech and debate team can control themselves and that thread stays on topic, because I'm super excited for this game, will be getting it day 1, and want to have a place to talk about the actual game with other GAFers.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
spandexmonkey
Banned
Lime is male?
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
the funny thing is that male wizards have had that style (apart from the face covering) for years. put it on a woman and it does seem out of place because women in fantasy mythology look weird if they don't have nearly completed exposed bosom. personally, i dont even have a problem with sexualized characters if the tone is right for it, but people have the right to think this is distasteful or out of place regardless.
To be fair, you can't say with certainty that the disparity is not due to sexism. The point is that - as opposed to moral posturing - proof is burdensome. Moral posturing is so alluring that it leads us to neglect normal standards of logic. For instance, although American unemployment rates are higher among men in different demographic groups, no one is offering sexism as an explanation for that disparity. It fails to provide opportunity for moral posturing on the side of the angels. My point is not that sexism is probably involved in that case - I don't suspect it has anything to do with it at all - but that morally attractive propositions are subject to less scrutiny.
Moral Panic
Member
Saying that people are misinformed, misguided or another variation of this is not an ad-hominem attack.
Lime is probably the only person who has posted scientific articles to back up his assertions of facts, so yes, educate yourself.
First off you don't know how to use quotation marks. You don't just randomly add quotation marks to something no one said. Second Japan is in Asia so as Lime said products there are typically aimed at that market. The fact that you couldn't understand that shows how much you lack when it comes to capacity for reading and comprehension.
Lime clarified what he meant when he said "I thought you were better than this" to certain posters, so I'm not sure why you are bringing this up.
Again, with the quotes. Unless I am sorely mistaken (in which case laugh at me) Lime never used the phrase "part of the problem" so why are you putting it in quotation marks?
Many people were disagreeing with the facts that Lime brought out via the studies he posted. If you can't disprove the study or any flaw with it and you still post that it's wrong then I don't blame Lime for getting a little snarky.
The air turned hostile because people have decided that they don't want to hear opinions or facts that run contrary to their worldview anymore and they must take shots at anyone who talks out of line.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
The size of her tits isn't the issue. She is very clearly being sexually objectified.
i think the size is kind of an issue. they're gargantuan. the more i think about it the more i agree with the penny arcade comic. if they had a male character with a dick that big players would complain that it was weird and out of place. that said, there's nothing inherently wrong with this stylistic choice but people have the right to find it out of place without being called anti-feminist (kinda wonky how the script got flipped in this thread).
Yeah hopefully there is some truth to this.
SolidSnakex
Member
Because her proportions are exaggerated. The same goes for the Fighter, Dwarf and Amazon. Do you have an issue with those? So how exactly is her character out of place? If anything the Elf and the Wizard are the characters that are out of place because they're the only characters that don't feature exaggerated proportions.
Moral Panic
Member
You can love the game but still think the Sorceress has a design that is there for sexual titillation and objectification.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Does she have a spell to keep her from having back problems? Because goddamn.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Dreams-Visions
Member
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
It's this kind of fake innocent defensiveness that keeps driving the argument. I don't like this art, but at least I can say "to each his own", while the other side seems too stubborn to even admit that this particular drawing (and the ungodly jiggle) may be out of line. You guys keep wondering why this particular image out of all the other semi-hentai crap that comes out is getting so much attention? Really? You can't fathom it AT ALL? Ok. We must just really have nothing else to get upset about today.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I disagree with most of your post, but I only feel like responding to this part. You're using "that market" to refer to some kind of "Asian market" that you think exists. A product aimed at specific consumers in Japan is not a product aimed at a more broad "Asian market." What I was pointing out was that the two are not the same at all and that equating "Japanese" with a more general "Asian" group is just plain wrong.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Everyone understands some people might be turnned off or offended by the sorc or artstyle of the game in general, but she's not even remotely out of place in the game. Thus singling her out when she's not out of place in her own game is silly when trying to make an argument about said game.
SolidSnakex
Member
I'm not going to sit here and lie and say that I think it's out of line when I don't. It's right in line with the rest of the art in the game. Now if you don't like that art then that's perfectly fine. I can completely see why someone wouldn't like her design. But that doesn't mean that she's out of place.
But this game has a diverse cast of women, each with a very distinct build. The Sorceress' character design is only an issue when you don't see it in the whole of the game and ignore the artistic vision behind it.
Devolution
Member
This game/character is a terrible pulpit to use as your crowning example of sexual objectification of women in video games. I wish people would stop.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
are their dicks massive?
No but their muscles and chest sure are, for 2 out of 3.
The Dwarf's muscles have their own muscles.
spandexmonkey
Banned
Not the only one:
I then sent some of the following to lime in a pm:
http://www.mendeley.com/catalog/ster...h-performance/
http://www.mendeley.com/catalog/gap-...tion-earnings/
These studies are on gender stereotypes and the harmful effects they have on women's abilities to perform. Weakness in math pretty much locks women out of STEM fields and things that enforce these gender roles only make the matters worse. These studies don't hold back with their assesment:
"traditional gender role orientation continues to exacerbate the gender wage gap."
"when the test was described as producing gender differences and stereotype threat was high, women performed substantially worse than equally qualified men did."
Their language is explicit as the results are. Enforced gender roles and stereotypes, such as "women suck at math", "women should stay at home", or a lack of female representation are genuinely harmful to a woman's ability to perform professionally.
This is from the abstract of the study Lime linked:
"Results cautiously suggest that playing a sexualized video game heroine unfavorably influenced people’s beliefs about women in the real world."
Their language is more reserved and in the study itself they speak more abstractly. The two studies I linked above included men to compare their effects, but this one didn't. In fact there was a surge of studies concerning sexualization from 2008-1012 and most seemed to focus only on women.
When you take into consideration the earlier studies (the one from my quote) that show both men and women receive a negative effect to self esteem when presented with beautiful or idealized versions of their sex, I really think that sexualization is being unfairly mixed in with the genuinely harmful gender stereotyping and enforced roles. We're all effected by body image.
Moral Panic
Member
People always generalise and talk about Eastern and Western styles of video games, and eastern and western markets. Lime's generalisation of Western and "Asian consumers" was in-context perfectly fine.
Breasts aren't a sexual organ last time I checked. But maybe I've been doing stuff wrong this whole time.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Dicks are not the same as tits. Maybe if the sorc had a bulging camel toe I would agree with this statement but she doesn't
cpp_is_king
Member
Last I checks, boobs and genitalia were not even remotely in the same category
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
so the artist is just exaggerating muscles and breasts? why not muscles and hands? or muscles and and toes? there seems to be some inconsistency with the stuff he chooses to exaggerate.
Dreams-Visions
Member
haha, the intellectual dishonesty is going to make me barf. surely breasts have never been a sexual symbol!
surely not!
Aku said it best: being intentionally thick, dishonest, and unnecessarily obtuse is what drives the discussion. You're not stupid; don't talk to your fellow GAFers like they are.
surely not!
Aku said it best: being intentionally thick, dishonest, and unnecessarily obtuse is what drives the discussion. You're not stupid; don't talk to your fellow GAFers like they are.
Have you seen the Amazon?
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
True, I'm still in the side that doesn't see that much of a problem because she's a strong/playable character.
#TeamElf
Devolution
Member
This isn't really true. There's a definite sexual appeal to breasts. There's a point in making them more revealing and big. That being said the issue here is lacking nuance and taking all sexual objectification at face value. It doesn't work that way with artistic renderings ever unless of course the character in question or the intentions really are that flat.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
So you just heard of this game right now?
cpp_is_king
Member
Because artists generally enjoy creative freedom, and that's what the artists produced. Perhaps you should take your crusade to other artists like Tom Wessellman as well. (Perhaps NSFW, even though he's a famous and renowned artist)
Or he could of given them all bobbleheads, GENIUS! I don't see how any of the stuff you mentioned relates to the topic. So if she had really big hands it'd be okay with you?
God this is my second post in this thread and I'm already regretting joining.
I didn't say there wasn't sexual appeal, but it's not a sexual organ. Tons of non-sexual organ parts have sexual appeal. Comparing it to a penis is silly, Q's quote about camel toes would be more in line.
Weltall Zero
Member
I don't see anything in your post justifying (or, indeed, remotely related to) that "you should be better than this" attitude. I don't care about people understanding you or not, you have no right to hold any of the posters here to any previous standard you have for them, imagined or real.
I thought the armor design for the Divinity: Original Sin female lead that was shown when the Kickstarter started was a better example, Dragon's Crown is so exaggerated all over the place that it's hard to take seriously anyway, but Divinity seems to be more serious and likely story centric with more realistic character designs, so skimpy, impractical armor sticks out badly.
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The Everyman
Is there something wrong with exaggerating sexual symbols?
EDIT: And thanks for the insults.
Breasts: Secondary female sex characteristic
Musculature: Secondary male sex charcateristic
Kamitani exaggerating hands and arms (within the game):
Kamitani exaggerating feet (another game);
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
crusade? jesus.
Devolution
Member
Exactly. Or the constant skimpy ass armor for female characters in MMOs versus dudes being completely covered up. Then the excuse is "it's fantasy." Oh it's only fantasy in regards to the recreations of the female characters, uhuh. They have mystical invisible armor that keeps arrows away from their thighs, ass, chest and mid-drift. Although I don't really like Tera's solution where everyone looks like a stripper.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
No one said they are not sexually appealing, people are saying they are not on par with dick in sexual levels and no they are not.
As I said if they showed camel toes then yeah sure go for bulging packages
Not to you in particular, but people have used strong words to condemn this character design before in this thread.