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[GK86]

Link.

Baltimore may follow "in the footsteps of New Orleans" and remove the city's Confederate monuments, the city's mayor says.

"The city does want to remove these," Catherine Pugh told reporters after a news conference on Friday. "We'll take a closer look at it and see how we go about the business of following in the footsteps of New Orleans."

Former Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake appointed a special commission in 2015 to study what to do with Baltimore's four Confederate-era monuments.

They are the Confederate Soldiers and Sailors Monument on Mount Royal Avenue, the Confederate Women's Monument on West University Parkway, the Roger B. Taney Monument on Mount Vernon Place, and the Robert E. Lee and Thomas. J. "Stonewall" Jackson Monument in the Wyman Park Dell.

In its report, issued in August 2016, the special commission recommended removing two -- the Taney and Lee/Jackson monument -- of the four.

Rawlings-Blake, who left office last year, ended up enacting a short-term resolution. She directed that "interpretive signage" be added in front of the monuments.

In the news conference, Pugh said the removal of Confederate monuments is "another one of those things we will tackle." She pointed to the cost -- about $200,000 -- of removing a statue, and suggested the city could perhaps auction off the statues.

 

[Frozenprince]

I can't believe Baltimore even has Confederate monuments. Learning that shook me when I did because. Well.

Lee wanted to burn the city down.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I'll never understand celebrating treasonous losers.

It's the ultimate white privilege.

 

[Gallbaro]

I can't believe Baltimore even has Confederate monuments. Learning that shook me when I did because. Well.

Lee wanted to burn the city down.

Baltimore was very, very, pro confederacy and slavery.

To the point that they had to smuggle Lincoln around the city during his inauguration tour with credible threats against his life.

 

[The Kree]

That Baltimore still has confederate monuments is absurd.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

They should get rid of them.

 

[Gallbaro]

That Baltimore still has confederate monuments is absurd.

Confederate monuments still existing is one thing. But at the time of reconciliation Baltimore had a decent amount of people who fought for the south. Reconciliation was only possible with a very light touch of punishment and allowing the dead to be honored, from both sides.

 

[Suikoguy]

The movement to stop the adulation of the confederacy and relegate it to history in museums and the like is overdue and very welcome.

 

[Hux1ey]

Good.

 

[JordanN]

At this point, is the U.S the only country that builds monuments to enemies that lost?

Imagine if Canada built monuments for the FLQ.

 

[metalslimer]

Literally the only thing that should stop these abominations from coming down is financial reasons.

 

[LiK]

Baltimore was very, very, pro confederacy and slavery.

To the point that they had to smuggle Lincoln around the city during his inauguration tour with credible threats against his life.

Damn, this was off my US history knowledge base.

 

[ahoyhoy]

I can understand having a monument to local soldiers who died since many Marylanders went south to join the Confederacy. Lots of families had soldiers on either side of the battlefield and left some very traumatic memories.

I'm shocked there are memorials to Confederate leaders though, especially non local ones.

Damn, this was off my US history knowledge base.

The Baltimore Rowdies did not fuck around.

Lincoln had to suspend habeus corpus in Maryland for most of the war and practically held the state government Hostage to prevent any movement to join the Confederacy and essentially make DC an enclave. They unofficially moved the state government from Annapolis to Fredrick to even get to discuss the issues of the state, and even still the federal government arrested a lot of politicians for sedition and threatened others.

It was a really fucked up time for the state.

 

[That Damn Kid]

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I can understand having a monument to local soldiers who died since many Marylanders went south to join the Confederacy. Lots of families had soldiers on either side of the battlefield and left some very traumatic memories.

I'm shocked there are memorials to Confederate leaders though, especially non local ones.

Nope. They fought for the wrong side. Bury them and keep a cemetery for them but monument? Nope.

 

[Hux1ey]

At this point, is the U.S the only country that builds monuments to enemies that lost?

Imagine if Canada built monuments for the FLQ.

American has a fascinating history for sure lol.

 

[AoM]

The two they decided to keep after that 2016 commission (pictures with the text from the added plaques):

http://baltimoreplanning.wixsite.com/monumentcommission/confederatesoldiersandsailors

http://baltimoreplanning.wixsite.com/monumentcommission/confederatewomensmonument

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I can understand having a monument to local soldiers who died since many Marylanders went south to join the Confederacy. Lots of families had soldiers on either side of the battlefield and left some very traumatic memories.

I'm shocked there are memorials to Confederate leaders though, especially non local ones.

Why? It's not like they have monuments of Nazis in Germany for dying during the war. They were on the wrong side. They don't get memorials. No offense to the family, but at most they get a gravestone, but they shouldn't be propped up on special monuments nor should they deeds be celebrated

 

[RinsFury]

Knock them all down, in every state, then drag them all to a quarry somewhere and blow them up with dynamite on live tv. Fuck these racist monuments.

 

[ahoyhoy]

Why? It's not like they have monuments of Nazis in Germany for dying during the war. They were on the wrong side. They don't get memorials. No offense to the family, but at most they get a gravestone, but they shouldn't be propped up as special monuments

I believe they do have monuments that list the WWII dead in German towns. They aren't extravagant, but they are there.
http://www.thirdreichruins.com/memorials.htm

 

[Akuun]

It costs $200k to remove a statue? I guess that includes the equipment required to break/ship it away and then restore the ground around it?

 

[Toxi]

"Glory to the vanquished" who fought to keep the ancestors of many people in Baltimore as chattel.

 

[Gallbaro]

Why? It's not like they have monuments of Nazis in Germany for dying during the war. They were on the wrong side. They don't get memorials. No offense to the family, but at most they get a gravestone, but they shouldn't be propped up on special monuments nor should they deeds be celebrated

See my post above about how crucial crap like this was to reconstruction/reconciliation of the population.

150+ years later is something else.

 

[JordanN]

I believe they do have monuments that list the WWII dead in German towns. They aren't extravagant, but they are there.
http://www.thirdreichruins.com/memorials.htm

Are those Wehrmacht soldiers?

The equivalent to the Confederacy would be Hitler statues or SS monuments.

 

[GK86]

At this point, is the U.S the only country that builds monuments to enemies that lost?

Imagine if Canada built monuments for the FLQ.

What I love is racists telling black people to get over slavery, but then cry when monuments to a bunch of fucking losers are taking down.

 

[ahoyhoy]

See my post above about how crucial crap like this was to reconstruction/reconciliation of the population.

150+ years later is something else.

There were also a lot of institutions for Confederate veterans in Maryland as well, both public and privately funded.

I agree there really is no reason to honor these people anymore.

 

[Gallbaro]

Are those Wehrmacht soldiers?

The equivalent to the Confederacy would be Hitler statues or SS monuments.

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate—we can not consecrate—we can not hallow—this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

I am defending the construction of these monuments. Reunification would have failed miserably, worse than it did with Johnson, if policy was punishment and admonishment rather than controlled reintegration.

Take them down now, sure, they have become nothing more than monuments to racism.

 

[TAJ]

Confederate monuments still existing is one thing. But at the time of reconciliation Baltimore had a decent amount of people who fought for the south. Reconciliation was only possible with a very light touch of punishment and allowing the dead to be honored, from both sides.

The monuments that people are posting were built in the 20th century.
You have any receipts on that?

 

[Sunster]

 

[Slayven]

The monuments that people are posting were built in the 20th century.
You have any receipts on that?

People forget/skip over a lot of them were put up around the civil rights movement.

 

[Violence Jack]

It costs $200k to remove a statue? I guess that includes the equipment required to break/ship it away and then restore the ground around it?

This is what stood out to me also. Didn't know the cost was that high.

 

[The One and Done™]

But it's history!

 

[Gallbaro]

The monuments that people are posting were built in the 20th century.
You have any receipts on that?

People forget/skip over a lot of them were put up around the civil rights movement.

Then these are pure monuments to racism. The CNN article linked is fairly useless in providing that sort of context, such as construction date.

Back to my other point, Lincoln's own writings are very consistent in what he believed was the best course of reconstruction, very light punishment, fairness going forward and honoring the dead. This line of thought generally started 2 years into the war and about 4 years after he privately abandoned the "send them back to Africa" thought. LA is a good approximation of what Lincoln intended.

This is what stood out to me also. Didn't know the cost was that high.

Union town.

Spoiler

Probably re-purposing as well

 

[PeskyToaster]

This is what stood out to me also. Didn't know the cost was that high.

Might also include re-finishing costs so it's not just a hole in the ground or empty slab of concrete after the removal.

 

[j_k_redtail]

Damn, this was off my US history knowledge base.

Maryland is kind of an odd case; Annapolis was major port of entry for slave ships and the state probably would've seceded had it not been for Lincoln's intervention. During the war the secessionists adopted the red-and-white Crossland family coat of arms as their banner; the unionists adopted the black-and-gold Calvert banner. After the war the two were combined into today's flag. The state song makes reference to "the tyrant" (Lincoln) and "Union scum", and of course you have monuments like this in various parts of the state.

 

[Quixzlizx]

I like how Lincoln had the existing state legislature essentially put under house arrest to keep them from seceding #violenceworks

 

[WedgeX]

I hope Baltimore is able to follow through. Curious to see if there is resistance to removing the statues from within the city or surrounding counties.

 

[Trakdown]

Can't happen soon enough.

 

[Stumpokapow]

The two they decided to keep after that 2016 commission (pictures with the text from the added plaques):

http://baltimoreplanning.wixsite.com/monumentcommission/confederatesoldiersandsailors

http://baltimoreplanning.wixsite.com/monumentcommission/confederatewomensmonument

At first glance, these would seem to honour the confederate dead rather than the confederacy or its leaders, while the two they aim to remove appear to be generals and leaders. I'm not entirely sure where I would stand on that, but as far as a pragmatic compromise goes that seems to be a reasonable distinction to draw.

 

[Lucky Forward]

I can't believe Baltimore even has Confederate monuments. Learning that shook me when I did because. Well.

Lee wanted to burn the city down.

Yet there was a Robert E. Lee Park just north of the city limits in Baltimore County that was only just renamed to Lake Roland in 2015.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/ma...ph-tt-ms-lake-roland-0930-20150928-story.html

 

[Strike]

Baltimore, Maryland? Was not expecting that.

 

[JordanN]

At first glance, these would seem to honour the confederate dead rather than the confederacy or its leaders, while the two they aim to remove appear to be generals and leaders. I'm not entirely sure where I would stand on that, but as far as a pragmatic compromise goes that seems to be a reasonable distinction to draw.

While that sounds true at first glance, in reality Confederate Soldiers could be real pieces of shit, rivaling the Nazis in sheer brutality and horror.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_Army#Treatment_of_black_civilians

In some cases, the Confederates forced their African American slaves to fire upon U.S. soldiers at gunpoint,[69][70] such as at the first Battle of Bull Run. According to John Parker, one such slave who was forced by the Confederates to fight U.S. soldiers, "Our masters tried all they could to make us fight... They promised to give us our freedom and money besides, but none of us believed them; we only fought because we had to." Parker stated that had he been given an opportunity, he would have turned against his Confederate captors, and "could do it with pleasure".[69][70] According to abolitionist Henry Highland Garnet in 1862, he had met a slave who "had unwillingly fought on the side of Rebellion", but said slave had since defected to "the side of Union and universal liberty."[70]

During the Siege of Yorktown (1862), The Union's elite sniper unit, the 1st United States Sharpshooters, was devastatingly effective at shooting Confederate artillerymen defending the city. In response, some Confederate artillery crews started forcing slaves to load the cannons. "They forced their negroes to load their cannon," reported a Union officer. ”They shot them if they would not load the cannon, and we shot them if they did."[92]

James McPherson states that "Confederate troops sometimes murdered black soldiers and their officers as they tried to surrender. In most cases, though, Confederate officers returned captured black soldiers to slavery or put them to hard labor on southern fortifications."[100][101] African American USCT soldiers were often singled out by the Confederates and suffered extra violence when captured by them.[65] They were often the victims of battlefield massacres and atrocities at the hands of the Confederates,[65] most notably at Fort Pillow in Tennessee and at the Battle of the Crater in Virginia.[102][103]

Maybe re-dedicate the monuments to the victims of the war, instead of honoring all of them.

 

[Atom Heart Mother]

At this point, is the U.S the only country that builds monuments to enemies that lost?

Imagine if Canada built monuments for the FLQ.

There's still monuments of Stalin and Lenin, and their whole empire fell. 🤔

They should remove statues of mass murders in Russia, but they actually celebrate the USSR. It's like having statues of Hitler in DE.

 

[PataHikari]

Confederate monuments still existing is one thing. But at the time of reconciliation Baltimore had a decent amount of people who fought for the south. Reconciliation was only possible with a very light touch of punishment and allowing the dead to be honored, from both sides.

Most Confederate monuments were built not after the Civil War but rather a near century later in order to raise a middle finger to the Civil Rights movement.

They're White Supremacy Monuments.