Mike Works
Member
Oh man, I totally forgot about the West Edmonton Mall since it got attacked by terrorists because we didn't vote the conservatives back into power.
Never forget RIP
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Canadian PoliGAF - 42nd Parliament: Sunny Ways in Trudeaupia
- Thread starter matthewwhatever
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Never forget RIP
Hmm, very interesting, especially when combined with the relatively slick, "inclusive PC party" ad spots I've been seeing in the past few weeks on TV and online.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
ww-w...ww-whatOh man, I totally forgot about the West Edmonton Mall since it got attacked by terrorists because we didn't vote the conservatives back into power.
Never forget RIP
I agree with a lot of this. I obviously don't necessarily align with Coyne on every issue and I do feel that he sometimes has a blind spot when it comes to race issues, but I think he still is one of the for most insightful columnists in the country (though I do think Chantal Hébert edges him out) and god damn can he bring the ether like he did with Peter Mackay.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I mean, Coyne is fine compared to the American/British media shills. But I can still think he's a douche. lol
You are, in fact, very entitled to that opinion. 😉
Infinite Stars
Member
It's going to be so weird to have Moosebridge no longer being part of CBC, because he's been so closely tied to CBC for me.
Stealth edit: It's bad I know the exact place in the shithole that is Red Deer that the conference was. Good grief, if the Cons/Wildrose somehow come back it'll just go more to shit.
Stealth edit: It's bad I know the exact place in the shithole that is Red Deer that the conference was. Good grief, if the Cons/Wildrose somehow come back it'll just go more to shit.
He's laying the ground for a 2018 election that will be the PCs to lose...which they probably will, knowing Ontario's PCs.
You think that an intellectually lazy 'both sides' type argument applies to an instance of openly racist smug cultural superiority? You think - honestly, please watch this video and tell me - that Jesse Wente's 'side' looks worse or as bad as Coyne's?
https://youtu.be/J_G42QVH3QM
I'm sorry but it's an absolute trash argument to say that some tweedy douchebag opinion columnist being gleefully and shamelessly racist and then putting out an 'I'm sorry that you're offended' apology is somehow 'just as bad' as an actual indigenous person talking about how badly this kind of thing hurts him and his people.
I'm not kidding, it's dishonest and lazy and indicative of deep seated racial bias to look at this argument about cultural appropriation, especially First Nations cultural appropriation, and think 'all sides are just as bad.'
He's an alright sort, he went to my school and sometimes shows up at Hart House- its always interesting seeing him debate though. He argued in favor of electoral reform and against Trudeau's decision to beak that promise so he can't be all bad ¯\_(ツ
_/¯For me, personally, I read enough good books in school and in my own time that I don't feel the need to consume his tepid above-it-all opinions, even if he is capable of turning a nice phrase. I appreciate that his prose is good, but he's not some literary genius.
matthewwhatever
Member
(Not really) Breaking: Canadians still really dislike Trump, and by extension, the U.S.:
I seriously wonder about those 22% of people who think Trump could be counted on to do the right thing, to say nothing of the 16% who think he's qualified to be president. Just...how? Why?
Watched it. Still think that as stupid as it was for someone to write in favour cultural appropriation in an issue devoted to indigenous writers, the resulting hysteria that painted the previously-anonymous editor of a trade publication with a circulation of approximately 2,000 as a -- as you put it -- "tweedy douchebag opinion columnist being gleefully and shamelessly racist" was also pretty overblown. If you're going to use that as a pretext for calling me an intellectually lazy racist (sorry, that I have "deep-seated racial bias"), then that tells me exactly how seriously I should take your opinion.
I seriously wonder about those 22% of people who think Trump could be counted on to do the right thing, to say nothing of the 16% who think he's qualified to be president. Just...how? Why?
Watched it. Still think that as stupid as it was for someone to write in favour cultural appropriation in an issue devoted to indigenous writers, the resulting hysteria that painted the previously-anonymous editor of a trade publication with a circulation of approximately 2,000 as a -- as you put it -- "tweedy douchebag opinion columnist being gleefully and shamelessly racist" was also pretty overblown. If you're going to use that as a pretext for calling me an intellectually lazy racist (sorry, that I have "deep-seated racial bias"), then that tells me exactly how seriously I should take your opinion.
matthewwhatever said:
Oh I see, it was those outrage culture sjw PC police that you're including in 'everyone looks just as bad'. I thought you meant the actual indigenous people in the middle of the debate, but apparently they don't count as one of the sides in 'all sides.'
So, yeah, I guess in a way that's less racist? My bad.
matthewwhatever
Member
Yep, you got me nailed. I'm suuuuuper racist. Good for you.
AuthenticM
Member
matthewwhatever
Member
I have a lot of francophone coworkers, and this was all they wanted to talk about at lunch. The consensus seemed to be that even if the organizers may have had the best of intentions -- yay for trying to be inclusive! -- someone, at some point, should have thought about the terrible optics of it all. Definitely a good illustration of why bringing in more diverse points of view during the planning stages is a good thing.
(Also, « calmerai pas le mouton »? I'm trying to bone up on my French, so...is that a saying? I can tell it's referring to the La Presse headline, but beyond that I'm a little confused. Sorry for the derail.)
(Also, « calmerai pas le mouton »? I'm trying to bone up on my French, so...is that a saying? I can tell it's referring to the La Presse headline, but beyond that I'm a little confused. Sorry for the derail.)
AuthenticM
Member
Absolutely
« se calmer le mouton » is an expression that means "to calm (oneself) down". It can be used towards someone who is very agitated or upset. Yeah, it's a known idiom. I don't know if it's Québec-only though. I might have heard it in a French movie at some point.
The BC government is filibustering their own throne speech?
https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/comments/6k4aoq/something_really_special_is_happening_in_bc/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/comments/6k4aoq/something_really_special_is_happening_in_bc/
matthewwhatever
Member
Interesting. Thanks! The toughest part of learning (or re-learning) a new language is always the idioms and the jokes.
For all the flak Québec gets as being different from the rest of Canada, I don't think any province has stranger politics than B.C.
I just saw Norm McDonald's new special where he talks about how you can get away with stuff by admitting it in a sarcastic voice.
I mean if you say something racist and then the racism of your statement is pointed out by someone else and your response is to first get defensive and then to get sarcastic, I don't know what to tell you?
Christ Clark trying to cling to power with every trick she can think of
matthewwhatever
Member
Didn't Clark promise shortly after the election that she *wasn't* going to use tricks to cling to power? Or am I misremembering?
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I was wondering why the CBC doesn't have a political panel show with a live audience and then I watched Question Time again and remembered that the public, whether in the UK or in Australia, are idiots. lol
matthewwhatever
Member
The government has officially lost the confidence of the legislature, and Clark's heading to meet with the LG at 9 PM EST, so we'll find out sometime after that!
I'm thinking it's going to be a new election. Having a Speaker keeping the government afloat is a pretty drastic break from precedence, and it's hard to imagine that government being anything but short-lived anyway.
Hopefully the NDP can win the seat they need if we do get a new election. I just want Christy Clark gone and the Libs out.
matthewwhatever
Member
It's going to be close. By my quick count, there were only six ridings where the Liberals and NDP were within 1,000 votes of each other, of which the Liberals won four, and the other two went NDP. The other 70+ ridings all seemed to have fairly comfortable margins for the winners, though it's quite possible that soft Green voters could abandon their party with so much at stake. You have to figure turnout will be higher this time, so it'll be a matter of who has the better GOTV machine in those six ridings, and which way those ridings have gone historically.
Are Tiktaalik or Sean C. around to give us some historical analysis?
The province is very divided between rural and urban, with the NDP not getting enough traction in rural ridings and the Liberals not getting enough in urban ridings. If there in another election (which seems fairly likely to me) I suspect voters are going to dig in and the margins of victory for most current MPs will grow. The amount of ridings in play is going to be very low.
I'd imagine voters are going to be quite a bit more strategic and they'll have the recent election results as a road map to study. I think it's quite likely that some Green voters in close ridings will vote NDP in order to try push the NDP across the line into a more comfortable position. Sam Sullivan for example in Downtown Vancouver would be at risk as he only had a 417 vote lead.
It was quite clear from the election though that a substantial amount of Green support, particularly in Metro Vancouver, most likely came from disaffected left leaning Liberals and not NDP supporters, so those votes may not necessarily move to the NDP or in fact they could go back to the Liberals. The Liberals have pivoted to a more urban friendly platform and have put ex-Vancouver Mayor Sullivan into a more prominent role, and so that could win back some disaffected urban Liberals.
The polling shows that BCians aren't really in favour of the Liberals having another run in government
I'd imagine voters are going to be quite a bit more strategic and they'll have the recent election results as a road map to study. I think it's quite likely that some Green voters in close ridings will vote NDP in order to try push the NDP across the line into a more comfortable position. Sam Sullivan for example in Downtown Vancouver would be at risk as he only had a 417 vote lead.
It was quite clear from the election though that a substantial amount of Green support, particularly in Metro Vancouver, most likely came from disaffected left leaning Liberals and not NDP supporters, so those votes may not necessarily move to the NDP or in fact they could go back to the Liberals. The Liberals have pivoted to a more urban friendly platform and have put ex-Vancouver Mayor Sullivan into a more prominent role, and so that could win back some disaffected urban Liberals.
The polling shows that BCians aren't really in favour of the Liberals having another run in government
Way to take the old passive aggressive edit notes high road, I guess I'll disengage as well.
matthewwhatever
Member
This will be...interesting. I wonder what Clark said to make the LG think the new government will survive its first confidence vote?
If the NDP lose their first confidence vote then we get an election. If Horgan asserts, with proof, that he has the confidence of the house he might as well have a shot.
The LG deciding for herself that he'd certainly fail and subsequently mandating a new election would seem to me to be overly meddling in the process. It's more appropriate to let the system play things out. If Horgan is unable to hold the confidence of the house then we'll get our election soon enough.
The LG deciding for herself that he'd certainly fail and subsequently mandating a new election would seem to me to be overly meddling in the process. It's more appropriate to let the system play things out. If Horgan is unable to hold the confidence of the house then we'll get our election soon enough.
If there is another election, what are the chances of the NDP winning? Would the coalition have any effect? Like how would that work at the voting booth?
I dunno it'll be interesting to see what the reaction from the public is from this. Recent polling suggested that people wanted to see a change in government and didn't want another election and that Horgan and Weaver are dramatically more popular than Clark.
It seems likely to me that most British Columbians will be relieved to have the issue settled and will be eager to tune out politics and enjoy their summer. I'm not sure people would be overjoyed to see a Liberal opposition immediately oust the new government.
I bet the NDP government will last just long enough to be around when the housing bubble finally bursts, so that they can be blamed for it and kept out of government for the next 30 years.
matthewwhatever
Member
Federally, by convention and precedent the GG is supposed to act based on the advice received from the Governor-in-Council (which, ultimately, is the PM). Thanks to Harper's prorogation in 2008, there's arguably a precedent that the PM doesn't even need to have demonstrated (s)he has confidence of the legislature before advising the Crown (though CPCers I know argue that he'd passed the Speech from the Throne, which was enough).
Since BC is also a Westminster system -- and a Canadian Westminster system at that -- I'd argue that it'd be a much bigger break from convention if Clark had asked the LG for a new election, and the LG refused in order to give Horgan a chance.
I get what you're saying, and it makes sense, but because of the above I'm really wondering what Clark said to the LG during their meeting.
Like Tik says a few posts above, there are only a handful of ridings that could legitimately be called swing ridings. I don't think it'd be shocking to see the Green vote collapse, but at the same time...who knows? I don't think it's impossible that the next election returns exactly the same seat counts.
Puppet Shadow
Member
The LG made the right call. Give the NDP/Greens a chance, though I also think there will be an election called in within the next little while.
Read Tiktaalik's post above. It sums it up well.
I feel like this is really reaching. I think it's pretty valid to say that Harper, while he was avoiding a confidence motion, had obtained the right to govern. A lot of people were hoping for the GG to go against that basic fact, including tbh me, but it was always a long shot.
A PM who has literally just failed the first and most important confidence test though? That's a very different matter.
I'm not sure there is a firm convention that an LT is supposed to act on the advice of the Premier (see: Byng) but the LT is supposed to at least ask for the advice of the Premier.
Apparently Clark did request a new election from the LT and was rejected!
".@christyclarkbc did what she said she wouldn't, she asked for dissolution and an election. #bcpoli"
https://twitter.com/richardzussman/status/880632634526674944
This is just coming out now, so I'm sure we'll get more details soon.
Something that I think will be interesting to watch as well is how long until the legislature reconvenes and how much the NDP/Greens do in the meantime.
If the Liberals had won a majority it is likely the legislature would not have sat until Fall.
I suspect however that the NDP/Greens will not want to give the Liberals all summer to fundraise under the old system, so they will reconvene the legislature pretty early to pass a bill banning union and corporate donations and imposing limits on personal donations.
If the Liberals had won a majority it is likely the legislature would not have sat until Fall.
I suspect however that the NDP/Greens will not want to give the Liberals all summer to fundraise under the old system, so they will reconvene the legislature pretty early to pass a bill banning union and corporate donations and imposing limits on personal donations.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Is Clark super popular among BC Liberals or something? I'm surprised the knives aren't out.
I was wondering this too. I mean she may be dragging the party down with her over her own ego. That's got to rub people the wrong way
Clark is given a lot of flexibility because she got the Liberals elected in 2013 when no one thought it was possible.
BC Liberal discipline has been good because there has still been a reasonably good chance that the NDP/Green alliance could fall apart or that the LT would grant the Libs another election. Now the Liberals are going to be in opposition and the pressure is going to be higher.
I figure discipline will continue for a while, but if it becomes apparent that the NDP/Greens are able to successfully implement their agenda, and the new government doesn't immediately collapse, then I think the knives will come out and those from the right side of the party will rally around someone else, such as Kevin Falcon, whom she narrowly beat in the leadership race and who has been critical of her recently,
BC Liberal discipline has been good because there has still been a reasonably good chance that the NDP/Green alliance could fall apart or that the LT would grant the Libs another election. Now the Liberals are going to be in opposition and the pressure is going to be higher.
I figure discipline will continue for a while, but if it becomes apparent that the NDP/Greens are able to successfully implement their agenda, and the new government doesn't immediately collapse, then I think the knives will come out and those from the right side of the party will rally around someone else, such as Kevin Falcon, whom she narrowly beat in the leadership race and who has been critical of her recently,
Can anyone inform me as to why this would make the government more unstable? I thought the problem was that the Speaker was a Liberal?
I thought this actually happened at the federal level years and years ago -- whereby a GG actually gave the minority party a chance instead of calling a new election?
Now an NDP or Green speaker will probably have to be elected and that'll reduce a one seat advantage to an outright tie where the speaker will by precedence vote in favour of continued discussion or the status quo.
Or no one could stand for speaker election and the legislature can't sit. That'd be fun.
Yes, it has happened at the federal level (part of the king-byng affair I believe). And I'm pretty sure at the provincial level as well.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
This is why I hate British Westminster systems sometimes. Everything is a hodgepodge of customs and traditions. Is there anything that prevents a speaker from being partisan? Other than it being similar to the "nuclear option" in the US Senate where no one wanted to use a simple majority to confirm SCOTUS appointments?
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