It seems like it should be its own thread though.
Im not entirely sure. I somewhat agree but at the same time it is also very much part of things happening in this thread. If a mod comes by and agrees it should be its own thread, I'll move over to it.
But that's how you came across, as many of the posts you originally quoted didn't seem to specifically be framing a dislike of Aloy's design on the basis of her appearance alone. Some mentioned a preference for the concept art without specifying a basis for that preference, and some comments stated the posters opinion of the character's attractiveness, making no vocal judgement about her design.
While one or two of those posts certainly did seem to judge Aloy's design on the basis of her attractiveness, not all of them were clearly doing that. And so by quoting all the posts you did and painting them with the same brush you're effectively projecting the perceived sins of some onto a larger group.
I fail to see how you can claim this conclusively on the basis of the posts you quoted. Unless you're also including posts outside of this thread in your conclusion, in which case i would ask you to consider whether you're projecting what you've seen elsewhere, unfairly onto some posters in here, based on fairly ambiguous posts?
Whilst I agree with you. I think you'll struggle to find more than maybe one poster in this entire thread who stated "Aloy's design sucks because she's unattractive".
Plenty posters saying, "in-game Aloy is unattractive" or "I prefer the concept art Aloy to in-game Aloy" aren't the same thing at all, and yet the poster who started off this entire discussion, quoted a bunch of posts saying exactly this and framed it as if they were claiming the above.
I get that objectification of women in gaming is a legit problem that needs to be solved. But framing every instance hetero-male expression of a character's attractiveness as a judgement of said characters overall design is disingenuous at worst and projecting at best.
Since the quotes I used seem to be the major sticking point for you, Id like to know which one(s) of them you feel I am misrepresenting or using in a disingenuous way. Which one of them does
not specifically bring up the (supposed lack of) physical beauty of the final Aloy design?
Also, as this apparently somehow isnt clear; Not liking Aloys final design is fine. I dont think theres anything inherently wrong with the concept designs either, other than me personally believing that they wouldnt fit in the current art style. Im not saying that not liking Aloys final design is bad. Im not saying liking Aloys concept design is bad. Im not saying liking Aloys concept design over her final design is bad. Im not saying that if you dont like Aloys final design, that it must be because of sexism. Im not saying that the posts I quoted are literally the representative of all people who dislike final Aloy, nor did I ever claim that. I am not saying that everyone should like final Aloy, nor am I saying that everyone should find final Aloy physically attractive.
I am arguing that there is a trend of people judging this new female lead character specifically on physical beauty when the same is rarely if ever - done for other characters, and that this is a symptom of deeper problems within the gaming community / culture specifically of the objectification / sexualization of women.
And no, Im not saying those people are sexist pigs either. Its about pointing out an underlying issue that is still very much present in gaming community / culture which enables sexism, objectification and sexualization of women to thrive in large parts of it.
Minor side note; I am not the poster who started off this entire discussion. A discussion on Aloy was already ongoing.
I agree with your points, but your earlier post didn't specify that it was wrong to post it, it seemed to say you were wrong to even have the thought in your head. I think that is why some people are disagreeing. They might not be able to control subconscious thought, but they can control what they say or post on the internet.
Then apologies for not clarifying that enough. They might not be able to control subconscious thought, but they can control what they say or post on the internet. Is a good way to put it.
I honestly don't understand why a person expressing whether they find a character (or person in RL) attractive or not, is objectifying.
And I dont think nor claim that it by definition is. But these things dont exist in a vacuum. Content, context, frequency, etc. are all relevant. The context here being that sexualized / idealized / conventionally beautiful women have been the standard for most of the existence of the medium. Aloy is also the first new AAA female lead in quite some time in this industry flooded with male protagonists. In that context, the content and frequency of complaints mentioning specifically physical beauty when talking about this specific character is - to me - indicative of underlying attitudes which enable the continuation of sexualization and objectification of women both in the community and as characters in games themselves.
If they claim outright that the character's design is poor on that basis alone, then I can completely understand that. However, I think you'll struggle to find more than one or two posters in this entire thread who did that.
That is what Ive been talking about from the start, or at least I intended to. I already provided some quotes from just the first few pages of this thread, but you disagree on whether those actually represent what I am talking about.
The list of posts you quoted earlier, didn't seem to fit that criteria at all. Mostly at least.
Could you clarify?
In which case, are you objecting to all comments on the attractiveness of a character at all on this discussion board? As I'd argue that's an somewhat unreasonable position.
I am not objecting to
all comments about physical attractiveness, not in general and not even towards this character in specific. I am specifically talking about the comments regarding the physical attractiveness of this specific character and their frequency and content versus similar comments on other characters.
It absolutely does get said about male characters and it's quite disingenuous to claim it doesn't happen. Looking at the uglier characters in this thread, father Nier and the Gears of War cast are good examples.
Father Nier got one comment Im not even sure what to make of and Gears got maybe two with the complaints being non-specific and about the not-final character model, and not about, lets say, how the shape of Marcus nose made them not buy the game. Even if they were specific / comparable to the stuff that gets thrown around about Aloy, these complaints do not appear near as frequently as the ones about Aloy did (and still do).
Putting it bluntly (though I also find it it a somewhat exaggerated statement), she's ugly. Same thing happens with other characters that are perceived as ugly, be it male or female, or even non-human.
[citation needed]
I have yet to see these kinds of comments with similar frequency on a male, non-human, or even other female character. Im not definitively saying that it has never happened, but if it did, Id genuinly like to see it and the context it was in.
Anything that isn't a horrific monstrosity will have many people judging it by how attracted they find them (and even then you have some uh, interesting fetishes out there). It's a very human thing to do.
Again, not trying to be some kind of thought-police here, nor was that ever my intention.
Horizon being a major game with a huge marketing budget around it just means it will easily dominate the discussion.
What does the marketing budget have to do with the frequency of comments about Aloys physical attractiveness?
It is absolutely ridiculous, you're acting the same as the people you're deriding, just on the other side by judging a character's worth from their (lack of) attractiveness.
I am not on a side, much less one such as you describe here.
There's nothing about Aloy being less attractive that make her seem a stronger character than anyone else, her body could have more musculature for the crazy shit she does and facial beauty is completely unrelated to her strength as a character.
Im not sure what you are trying to say here. I agree that her looks arent directly related to her strength as a character. Ill note that that makes it even more baffling that there are relatively many who feel the need to comment on it. I dont see what point you are trying to make relating to the ongoing discussion?
It's extra silly when the game in question has more attractive characters like Vanasha and Talanah, or hell even Nil and Varl that are also strong and capable yet they're not called out for being unrealistic.
Again, I dont quite understand what you are trying to say here
There are (according to your personal opinion of course) more attractive characters in the game, and that means
what exactly? That they should have made Aloy just as attractive? That they made Aloy less attractive on purpose? Im not trying to put words in your mouth here, just genuinely trying to figure out what you are implying here.
Basically the point of contention seems to be if it's bad for beauty to play a role in judging character designs. It's probably clear that I feel there's nothing wrong with it. Our preferences and attractions will inevitably color our opinions, it's not something you can be completely objective about.
No, that is not the point of contention. At least it wasnt for me, so apologies if that wasnt clear. I explained this further earlier in this post and it wasnt the point of contention before this post either.
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Jesus, next someone's gonna analyse her skin pores or something... Honestly, no, I hope GG isn't "mindful" of their character's eye spacing to such obsessive degrees "next time".
