Meus Renaissance
Member
TimothyS: CNN just reported that US will spend an additional $600 million on Israel's Iron Dome system as part of the Gaza cease-fire agreement.
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Israel and Hamas might be going to war again (this time with live tweeting)
- Thread starter el retorno
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Look at our tax money go! Instead of supporting education with that money, let's give it to another country!
Nice to see someone speaking the truth.
may be the israelis should vacate palestinian lands may be
then we can all forgot about this conflict?
As for the jordanians the less said about them the better.
I hope really hope that if the palestinians one day get their state they want i hope they ban the jordanian royal family from ever visiting the dome of the rock/al aqsa mosque
Don't you see a difference between renegotiating borders that have been set by the brits and giving land back that has been conquered during a war?
RustyNails
Member
Once again US has to step in and change Israel's diapers, using my tax dollars.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
I do.
The point was that Israel has given up land in the past to no avail and with continued hatred. To them, it's a lost cause.
Shouldn't be an issue, I imagine that would be on the Israeli side of the border.
lost cause? That's a good one.
Did egypt attack israel since their peace treaty and the handover of the suez control to them?
You sound like the israelis who used to shout dont hand back any lands back to the egyptians. They will neevr stop attacking us.
May be just may be israel should withdraw back to 1967 borders, sign a peace agreement with the palestinians and sit back and watch.
by the way the state of israel sits on 80 percent of historical palestine. They find it so hard to let the palestinians keep the rest which i find sad
west jerusalem is for israel and east jerusalem for the palestinians. Eastern part of the city is within the 1967 borders taken by israel
RustyNails
Member
The "giving up land" part...it does not belong to Israel in the first place. Its like stealing someones Pizza and throwing a shitfit after being forced to give each slice back. So pathetic.
eudaemonic
Member
I really wonder whose sex tape they threaten to release if they don't get their way.
I don't think there's anything bad in paying for those defense systems. In fact I would have prefered the european countries to support it as well.
I don't see why we are buying it for them, couldn't we just lend them it? Why don't we give other countries Iron Domes of their own?
You know if Obama messes up 3 zeroes again he will give away 600 Billion like the 70 Billion for Iron Dome last time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lCKyZgnuYc#t=1m5s
Additional Interesting money detail from Wikipedia:
Iron Dome is US$90,000 per missile and US$50 million per battery
The most commonly used Hamas rocket, Qassam is $800 per rocket
So it costs 112 times more to take out a rocket than to fire one into Israel
I understand that's how it was, it's just not ever going to happen.
hukasmokincaterpillar
Member
Those orange splotches composing the West Bank, similar to South Africa's system of bantustans, will likely prevent two states from ever existing. Both geographically and politically. It looks like a tangled mess, but it's more like a briar patch. Israel's settlement expansion, over many years, has been by design. It has made contiguous Palestine a virtual impossibility, and thus Palestinian sovereignty a virtual impossibility.
Arguably and ironically, Israel's post '67 policies have in fact sealed the fate of Zionism. If there can only be one state, or ongoing apartheid, or progressive ethnic cleansing, how long can the illusion of two separate states continue to hold?
RustyNails
Member
More than half of that money is going to fat cat defense contractors. Rest is going into pockets of politicians (both here and Israel) and middlemen.
TheContact
Member
speculawyer
Member
But an even smaller price to get your foe to burn up their money (or their allies' money).
NullPointer
Member
This is something I've never seen a decent answer to, and thus why I don't believe Israel seeks peace between two viable, sovereign states. It is also why peaceful protest will accomplish nothing but to run out the clock.
Those orange splotches composing the West Bank, similar to South Africa's system of bantustans, will likely prevent two states from ever existing. Both geographically and politically. It looks like a tangled mess, but it's more like a briar patch. Israel's settlement expansion, over many years, has been by design. It has made contiguous Palestine a virtual impossibility, and thus Palestinian sovereignty a virtual impossibility.
Arguably and ironically, Israel's post '67 policies have in fact sealed the fate of Zionism. If there can only be one state, or ongoing apartheid, or progressive ethnic cleansing, how long can the illusion of two separate states continue to hold?
That does not justify rocket attacks, but when there are no other avenues for justice, people will be driven to lash out.
Last I checked, Israeli citizens don't pay US taxes, and the Iron Dome isn't over US citizens heads...
that is actually a good question. But at the moment I'm just happy that it means less deaths
That's actually one thing I've been wondering; You'd expect the settlements to be under constant fire by some groups like Hamas but you never hear anything of that.
Those orange splotches composing the West Bank, similar to South Africa's system of bantustans, will likely prevent two states from ever existing. Both geographically and politically. It looks like a tangled mess, but it's more like a briar patch. Israel's settlement expansion, over many years, has been by design. It has made contiguous Palestine a virtual impossibility, and thus Palestinian sovereignty a virtual impossibility.
Arguably and ironically, Israel's post '67 policies have in fact sealed the fate of Zionism. If there can only be one state, or ongoing apartheid, or progressive ethnic cleansing, how long can the illusion of two separate states continue to hold?
Any idea why that is?
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
Giving away land has not changed the middle east's perception of Israel. People still sit there and say (and I'm paraphrasing here) 'why are they so hesitant to give away land? It doesn't belong to them'. Because giving away land will not solve this. It's been proposed before, and the PLO rejected it because they wanted Jerusalem wholly. Fatah was more negotiable. But Hamas simply wants no part of it, and wants the entire land to themselves.
And by the way, there was never a self-sustaining kingdom in that region that belonged to Palestinians. The land's autonomy (whenever there was one) was historically a Jewish one. Not Palestinian. So I tend to raise question with when people mention "Historical Palestine". The land historically was Jewish/Israeli.
But having said that, if there was a guarantee that this shit storm would end, I'm all for the 1967 borders.
curlyfriski
Banned
Well the Palestinian Authority's in charge of the West Bank where the settlements are, and they have been very active in stopping any violent resistance, to the point that they have been called collaborators with Israel. From what I've heard, the PA is actually quite repressive towards its own population.
Soldiers, lots and lots of soldiers.
More specifically, Palestinians are generally not allowed to get close to most settlements, and they're serviced by roads that they're not allowed to drive on.
Also, Hamas is mostly based in the Gaza these days where there are no longer settlements.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
You posted an article from the BBC that is over 6 years old? For a cause you're defending, you sure as hell forgot to check your facts and your timeline...
President Mahmoud Abbas fired Ismail Haniya from office in June 2007. For the very reasons written in the BBC article...he was going to offer Israel a deal and was willing to negotiate with them. Hamas wanted no signs of Fatah-esque negotiation during that era and kicked him the fuck out.
That's Hamas. That's what they do.
Keep fighting the good fight, if you think otherwise.
I have no problem with you supporting Palestinians and their rights. But you're supporting the wrong fucking side. Hamas has no intention of helping. There is a reason why they pissed and shitted on all over Fatah, killed their men, and drove every remnant of Fatah out of Palestinian lands.
You guys can keep arguing all of this. None of this talk means shit. Go there and do something about if you so firmly believe your stance. I'm out. Knicks-age time.
curlyfriski
Banned
You're making it seem like Fatah was the innocent victim in all this, which really is not true. According to Wikipedia:
while the soldiers obviously do a lot to mitigate it, the fact that for the first time the PA itself is actually fully against such action's is what makes the real difference, and its making it much easier for them to make their case worldwide, showing that they can in fact supply security to Israel as part of a deal.
Dude Abides
Banned
Actually, the PA's efforts in providing security to Israeli colonies in the West Bank have shown Israel that it can continue to occupy the West Bank with impunity and reduced Israel's incentive to reach a final status agreement.
the only reason worldwide opinion has swung the way it has from largely supporting Israel to largely condemning it is because of the fact that terror attacks are now rare, the story has shifted from Israel defending itself from savages blowing up buses, to savage Israel subjugating Palestinians that just want peace.
There should be a news network just reports things in literal language.
Palestinians today attacked Israelis by remote detonating a bomb off beneath a bus near israeli military hq injuring scores of innocent israeli people.
Israel today attacked palestinians by dropping bombs on a media centre roof where palestinians miltary were said to have been broadcasting from, injuring scores of innocent palestinians and international reporters, and killing several more.
Facetious perhaps. But this defence defence is just... just say attack, if you are actually justifying attacking as a form of defence.
Palestinians today attacked Israelis by remote detonating a bomb off beneath a bus near israeli military hq injuring scores of innocent israeli people.
Israel today attacked palestinians by dropping bombs on a media centre roof where palestinians miltary were said to have been broadcasting from, injuring scores of innocent palestinians and international reporters, and killing several more.
Facetious perhaps. But this defence defence is just... just say attack, if you are actually justifying attacking as a form of defence.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20441247
Video of celebrations in Gaza popped up on Google News top story.
There is a 2-3 year old with an assault rifle in his hands in one shot.
And then a 5 year old with a handgun in another.
LMAO.
Video of celebrations in Gaza popped up on Google News top story.
There is a 2-3 year old with an assault rifle in his hands in one shot.
And then a 5 year old with a handgun in another.
LMAO.
Sounds like Kentucky.
fuck this, obama.
the huge amount of money the US is pouring into the area is pretty much the sole reason this did not escalate further, the only reason Egypt actually did something to stop this is because the US is giving them billions of dollars yearly, which is pretty much the only thing keeping them from going bankrupt, and the only reason the Israeli government could afford to not invade Gaza is because the Iron dome system's kept civilian casualty's down to a minimum.
whether or not a thousand lives or so is worth that amount of US tax dollars is up to you, but there is no doubt it accomplished its purpose here.
i understand what you're saying. i just don't approve of my money going to this purpose.
that's fine,and im the last person that will tell you what your priorities should be,
just outlining that in this particular case, things would have gone differently otherwise.
Going by commentaries across the world, Egypt's domestic situation is quite fragile; I think this is more politically motivated than US tax dollar bought - the chief persuader would be Morsi part of the Muslim brotherhood - which is affiliated to Hamas a terror organisation according to the US. How the world spins eh?
I'd rather US aid is spent on iron dome but the way pr works, I think it better to claim it is being spent on iron dome, rather than anything else.
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=293084
hmm, nothing new really but I wonder if that statement will be taken seriously. Doubt it.
Did you even read those or just googled Hamas accepts Israel then cut n paste.
From the first one, circa 2006:
Oh, encouraging!
Uhh....
/facepalm
el retorno
Member
It's saw that statement yesterday. I'm hoping it signals something positive.
Bringing up the charter again - how much does Hamas hold to it? From a lot of other posts in this thread, Hamas has basically said "Eh, it's something some old guy wrote once, we don't really pay any attention to it anymore".
It did with Egypt and it did with Jordan DECADES ago, and only as a part of the negotiations that gave the land back did Egypt and Jordan recognize Israel (which is the same as recognizing the right to exist). For some bizzare reason it's now OK for Israel to demand recognition before negotiations even happen to give the land back.
This 1967 thing, first of all you'd think giving up Jerusalem is simply not going to happen. Second, in 1967 it was Egypt, Syria and Jordan vrs Israel and Israel rolled them. I dont see why the 1967 borders are anything you could demand back after bragging you're going to destroy Israel and losing badly.
All that said, Israel keeps Jerusalem, gives a lot of the rest back and call it good. Form a state of Palestine and go from there. It's going to be on Israel to be the grown ups, HAMAS is simply not held to even close to the same standard. Frankly it's ridiculous that you're forming any sort of deal with a terrorist organization that happily let's it's own people die and preaches hate.
The problem is you're not dealing with just HAMAS. You've got every single man woman and child in gaza to consider. So you have to suck it up and go from a terrible situation to just a bad situation. Although is an autonomous state funded and armed by Iran right next door worse than the status quo... you can start to see why this shit is never ending.
That article says IF you give us everything we want short of the destruction of Israel... we'll think about it.
Well, according to Hamas - they no longer follow the charter, so the 'destruction of Israel' is no longer a big deal to them. So What's the difference between them saying they accept it as a nation now or later. I mean... does Israel accept Palestine as a nation? Serious question.
Dude Abides
Banned
Israel has clearly shown that worldwide opinion is low on its list of concerns. What are a few sternly-worded rebukes from the EU compared to control over Judea, Samaria, and the Holy City?
This piece makes the point in more detail:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/24/opinion/sunday/the-third-intifada-is-inevitable.html
The Likud platform explicitly rejects a Palestinian state, yet Israel partisans constantly say that the PA needs to be talking to Likud. Apparently pieces of paper are of crucial importance and set in stone for one side and one side only.
michaelius
Banned
It's a payment for testing new weapon systems in real world conditions.
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