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[Ashes]

dat defence.

 

[Bo-Locks]

Israel has a peace treaty with Jordan.

Jordan relinquished its claim to the West Bank in the early 90s (late 80s?), thereby removing the territorial dispute between the two countries. The peace treaty was signed in 1994, after Israel recognized the PLO.

OK. I just read up on that. After the Six-Day War Israel captured the WB but never formally (although they did effectively) annexed it, and it has remained under Israeli military control ever since. The Arab League, and later Israel recognized PLO authority over the WB, and Jordanian later relinquished all claims to the WB and stripped those located there of Jordanian citizenship. The WB and East Jerusalem are therefore considered occupied territory. Israel rejects the notion that the territory is occupied since a sovereign Palestinian state never owned it in the first place, and the Jordanians relinquished it.

The Golan is completely illegal. Nobody but Israel thinks of it as Israeli territory. International agreements and law disallowed wars of conquest and the acquisition of territory through war after WWII. It was sovereign Syrian territory. It can't be Israeli unless Syria renounces its claim to it. Until then Israel is only there because its still technically at war with Syria and occupying its enemy's territory. Its anexation of it is not seen as legal anywhere. Not even the US.

The west bank and gaza are more tricky because be they've never been independent. The way I understand it is that Israel's mere occupation is legal but it becomes illegal when they violate the rules of what an occupying power can do, changing populations, annexing land, building settlements etc. That includes in international eyes east jersualem. So the fact that Israel has calmed part of the land beyong the green line as its own makes it illegal. It can only legally occupy it as a foreign land but its done more.

A treaty could transfer sovereignty though.

These are the rules of occupation. http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention#Section_III:_Occupied_territories Israel has violated some of them. I think Israel contends that its not an occupier or something though I'm not sure.

I think the hague conventions also have other provisions.

Thanks. Although of course Israel (for security purposes) does not want to transfer sovereignty of the WB. And transfer sovereignty to who? The PLO are not a state and so that complicates the transfer of land from a sovereign occupying state to a non-state. This comes back to the upcoming UN bid for the PLO. I'm still not entirely sure as to how the PLO can bid for UN status if there are no defined boundaries of the proposed state, so that is going to be interesting.

 

[phosphor112]

dat defence.

Palestinians would get blamed (again) for causing a ruckus if the ceasefire did break...

 

[Bo-Locks]

Palestinians would get blamed (again) for causing a ruckus if the ceasefire did break...

But the Palestinians promised to stop firing rockets from Gaza, and something ridiculous like 20 rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel just a few hours after the ceasefire started.

Shootings near the border are fairly common, just as the rocket attacks are. Assigning blame to this is impossible. The ceasefires are never 100% effective, and it was foolish to think the rocket attacks or border skirmishes would stop.

 

[radioheadrule83]

But the Palestinians promised to stop firing rockets from Gaza, and something ridiculous like 20 rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel just a few hours after the ceasefire started.

Shootings near the border are fairly common, just as the rocket attacks are. Assigning blame to this is impossible. The ceasefires are never 100% effective, and it was foolish to think the rocket attacks or border skirmishes would stop.

I find it pretty ugly that people are prepared to dismiss murder as the norm without being in possession of any facts. Every death warrants investigation IMO... I don't care how infeasible people think it is.

 

[Bo-Locks]

I find it pretty ugly that people are prepared to dismiss murder as the norm without being in possession of any facts. Every death warrants investigation IMO... I don't care how infeasible people think it is.

Firstly, I'm not dismissing it. I'm being realistic. Border skirmishes and shootings have been commonplace for a while now. Nobody expected the ceasefire to end all hostilities, it was interned to stop the increasing escalation of hostilities, that''s all.

Secondly, I don't pretend to be in the possession of all the facts. The Palestinians will claim that they were farmers peacefully passing through, and the IDF will claim that there was a demonstration/riot of sorts and that they fired warning shots. The truth will be somewhere in the middle.

I'm not making any judgement about the shooting, and I'm not dismissing it. I was responding to a poster who was sarcastically arguing that Palestinians will be blamed for breaking the ceasefire, when both groups have been breaking the ceasefire from the moment it started.

 

[el retorno]

My dad thinks Obama forced Israel to take the ceasefire.

I'm also surprised that Gaza got that 450m in aid.

Where did Gaza get that aid?

I wouldn't be surprised if they US was pressing hard to an end to the fighting. I'm interested if they push anything when hillary leaves. I just read they're telling Israel not to respond to the un bid by building in E1 areas around Jerusalem.


Those Cairo negotiations much have been interesting. I wonder if Iran came up at all.

 

[Ashes]

Firstly, I'm not dismissing it. I'm being realistic. Border skirmishes and shootings have been commonplace for a while now. Nobody expected the ceasefire to end all hostilities, it was interned to stop the increasing escalation of hostilities, that''s all.

Secondly, I don't pretend to be in the possession of all the facts. The Palestinians will claim that they were farmers peacefully passing through, and the IDF will claim that there was a demonstration/riot of sorts and that they fired warning shots. The truth will be somewhere in the middle.

I'm not making any judgement about the shooting, and I'm not dismissing it. I was responding to a poster who was sarcastically arguing that Palestinians will be blamed for breaking the ceasefire, when both groups have been breaking the ceasefire from the moment it started.

So easy to shoot a person dead. You'd think terrorists who actually want this could do it so easily too..

 

[phosphor112]

Where did Gaza get that aid?

I wouldn't be surprised if they US was pressing hard to an end to the fighting. I'm interested if they push anything when hillary leaves. I just read they're telling Israel not to respond to the un bid by building in E1 areas around Jerusalem.


Those Cairo negotiations much have been interesting. I wonder if Iran came up at all.

It was aid from the US. It was frozen several months ago I think for some reason, and they held back on it for a while. They finally gave it (or are giving it) now.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

This seems to be a video of the incident reported earlier:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YppuMRmwOVs&feature=youtu.be

Nice de-escalation strategy... those Palestinians looked really dangerous.

 

[nib95]

This seems to be a video of the incident reported earlier:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YppuMRmwOVs&feature=youtu.be

Nice de-escalation strategy... those Palestinians looked really dangerous.

I'd say that was a pretty poor strategy indeed. Assuming they're shooting at these people with rubber bullets? They seemed pretty harmless, no idea why they shot at them.

 

[jakonovski]

I'd say that was a pretty poor strategy indeed. Assuming they're shooting at these people with rubber bullets? They seemed pretty harmless, no idea why they shot at them.

Impressionable kids being told over and over that the other side is a bunch of murderous subhumans. Also, when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail.

 

[Ashes]

Impressionable kids being told over and over that the other side is a bunch of murderous subhumans. Also, when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail.

To be fair, there's a soldier in every army in the world that is an asshole. It comes with the territory.

That's a court marshall offence in the UK. Wonder what will happen to that soldier after a fact finding mission. We don't really know for certain that footage is accurate.

 

[Angry Fork]

One thing I'm hoping that somebody can explain to me (because I admit it's something I'm hopelessly ignorant about) is why there is a continued call for Israel to hand back pre-67 borders.

Don't get me wrong, I think the continued expansion of Israeli settlements is rather disgusting and in no way support that. However, I've always been under the impression that a lot of territory such as the Golan Heights etc became Israel's after they won the Six Day War. I mean, isn't that how most territory is claimed? Via war? So after forever-heightening tensions, war was declared on Israel and they happened to win and gain control over a large amount of territory that - under the guise of wars won at least (especially wars declared by opposing parties), I've considered fair game.

Again, let me stress that when it comes to this particular topic, I am very ignorant and am looking for perspective.

So I suppose my question is why there isn't there a call for the borders established in 67 immediately after the Six Day War which I suppose I've always considered fairly-won Israeli territory? I can understand why expansion via settlements etc after those 67 borders were established ought to be given back, but why the territories that Israel gained after being attacked themselves?

Is it just a case of Irredentism?

From what I've read people say this because it's illegal under international law to acquire land by force/war. Countries got away with it long ago because there wasn't a UN or international consensus on these issues.

 

[phosphor112]

This seems to be a video of the incident reported earlier:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YppuMRmwOVs&feature=youtu.be

Nice de-escalation strategy... those Palestinians looked really dangerous.

In all of that I heard "Son of a whore"

Lmao.

Seriously though.

Fucking stupid to shoot on them.

 

[Particle Physicist]

I'd say that was a pretty poor strategy indeed. Assuming they're shooting at these people with rubber bullets? They seemed pretty harmless, no idea why they shot at them.

We are seeing a partial video from one perspective. I am not condoning the actions that the soldiers took (shooting at the crowd), but from their side, they probably saw a frenzied crowd forming very close to the border. They definitely should have taken better action, but I can understand why they may have felt the need to disperse the crowd.


What was that about anyway? What were they doing/filming?

 

[el retorno]

It was aid from the US. It was frozen several months ago I think for some reason, and they held back on it for a while. They finally gave it (or are giving it) now.

I didn't know we gave aide to gaza cause of Hamas. I know we give a bunch to the PA.

 

[KtSlime]

We are seeing a partial video from one perspective. I am not condoning the actions that the soldiers took (shooting at the crowd), but from their side, they probably saw a frenzied crowd forming very close to the border. They definitely should have taken better action, but I can understand why they may have felt the need to disperse the crowd.


What was that about anyway? What were they doing/filming?

Who doesn't film illegal shootings in this day and age where everyone has a phone with built in camera?

 

[jamieson87]

What does this mean? https://twitter.com/alqassambrigade/status/272094326354477056

 

[F#A#Oo]

What does this mean? https://twitter.com/alqassambrigade/status/272094326354477056

They infiltrated his underwear drawer...?

 

[hym]

Despite being anti-religion I'm consistently annoyed whenever media jumps on a story telling how Islam contributes to terrorism just like I think the opposite is as stupid (Religion of Peace) but when Religion contributes to peace I think it deserves to be highlighted simply to preserve a little balance.

Gaza cleric calls violation of Israel truce sinful
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/11/25/gaza-cleric-truce-israel/1725137/

3:35AM EST November 25. 2012 -

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — A leading Islamic cleric in the Gaza Strip has ruled it a sin to violate the recent cease-fire between Israel and the Hamas militant group that controls the Palestinian territory.

The fatwa, or religious edict, issued by Suleiman al-Daya late Saturday accords a religious legitimacy to the truce and could justify any act by Gaza's government to enforce it.

"Honoring the truce, which was sponsored by our Egyptian brethren, is the duty of each and every one of us. Violating it shall constitute a sin," the fatwa read.

The Wednesday truce put an end to an eight-day Israeli offensive against Gaza militants who fired rockets into Israel. The agreement remains fragile because details beyond the initial cease-fire have not yet been worked out.

I also ran into this: Daughter of Mossad Chief- I Refuse to Enlist in the Israeli Military
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFf3Rh8_ivg

It's already from 2010 so no fancy ceasefire news, but it reminded me it's not just Palestinians being oppressed by Israel, a Judge told this girl refusing military service how she could change the system from the inside, with this absolutely ridiculous example of a soldier giving candy, either this Judge is an ignorant fool or he hopes his subjects are.