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New PS3 Model (CECH-4000) Registered on FCC (Jeff_Rigby alert)
- Thread starter Pooya
- Start date
Sarcasm?
Jeff, all that is lovely, but irrelevant. Of course if I was going to do a media box I'd use a cheap SoC just like roku, apple etc. but then you wouldn't be able to play PS3 games on it, so it wouldn't be a PS3. If you want to play PS3 games, you need a CELL and an RSX. Ideally with die shrinks to being costs down. If you're lucky you could combine the two onto one chip like 360 has now done.
Simply put, a PS3 can be a streaming media box, but a streaming media box can't be a PS3.
Simply put, a PS3 can be a streaming media box, but a streaming media box can't be a PS3.
Yes.
No.
He's probably some PR agent for Roku with all the advertising here.
PeakPointMatrix
Member
Does anyone have any predictions when this would launch?
Metroid Hunter
Banned
Late August.
Boss Man
Member
I don't know anything more than what's in this thread, but I'd guess this fall personally. Seems like a reasonable time to release a new model, especially with the Wii U coming.
Using history as an example, the PS3 Slim was announced on the 18th of August at GamesCom and released 1st of September.
So probably about that long if it does appear at GamesCom.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Now that it's been confirmed a new PS3 chassis is coming, can we now believe a new Xbox is coming and from the Xbox 720 powerpoint it's a Xbox361 with HDMI pass-thru and overlay which implies low power modes. The HDMI pass-thru with overlay is to support XTV and Skype on your older non-smart TV in overlay windows so you can have instant access to the internet without interrupting TV programming.
The Microsoft powerpoint Draft 1 was put together 6 days after Sony filed this patent for a 1PPU4SPU building block 9/18/2010 that would work in HSA Fusion (read AMD) SOCs. Edit: Can two SPUs emulate a PPC?
What if the 4000 PS3 chassis has HDMI pass thru with overlay and low power modes? All upper end home Receivers have this, Google TV boxes, NeTV . I can understand having problems believing that Microsoft and Sony are sharing the design and setup costs for a SOC that uses the Sony building blocks and can support emulating either a Xbox360 or PS3. I wouldn't have put it together except for the microsoft-sony.com that was filed days after the Digitimes PS4 rumor which I believe is the new PS3 4000 chassis.
For onQ123 the NeTV uses a $5 FPGA, well worth watching the video for an understanding of HDCP and what it takes to support HDMI pass-thru and overlay. The $119 NeTV is a limited production (everything including hardware open source design) Linux SOC that supports webkit and HTML5 apps as well as fling from Android handhelds and hdmi pass-thru with overlay.
The Microsoft powerpoint Draft 1 was put together 6 days after Sony filed this patent for a 1PPU4SPU building block 9/18/2010 that would work in HSA Fusion (read AMD) SOCs. Edit: Can two SPUs emulate a PPC?
What if the 4000 PS3 chassis has HDMI pass thru with overlay and low power modes? All upper end home Receivers have this, Google TV boxes, NeTV . I can understand having problems believing that Microsoft and Sony are sharing the design and setup costs for a SOC that uses the Sony building blocks and can support emulating either a Xbox360 or PS3. I wouldn't have put it together except for the microsoft-sony.com that was filed days after the Digitimes PS4 rumor which I believe is the new PS3 4000 chassis.
For onQ123 the NeTV uses a $5 FPGA, well worth watching the video for an understanding of HDCP and what it takes to support HDMI pass-thru and overlay. The $119 NeTV is a limited production (everything including hardware open source design) Linux SOC that supports webkit and HTML5 apps as well as fling from Android handhelds and hdmi pass-thru with overlay.
ShinobiFist
Banned
Jeff is going to find Jimmy Hoffa next. Jokes aside, great finds and info as always, Jeff.
No, the likelihood that a PS3 shrink is coming has no bearing at all on whether a new Xbox comes out. And you can't then pile on another bunch of random information either. Your info is interesting, but stop attaching it to things without evidence - both companies do research all the time.
Canis lupus
Member
Xbox361? That sounds so weird. I dont think they will come up with such a thing. For instance, MS came a full year later after Sony launched the PS3 Slim. If Sony plans on launching super slim this summer, if they follow Sony's strategy then the new 360 will come sometime next year, wich will be too late since the Nextxbox will dominate the headlines.
Also I think you're reading too much into that hdmi pass thru thing.
shinra-bansho
Member
In less than 50 words, can someone tell me what HDMI pass through is and why I should even care what it is?
A PS3 super slim for a lower price point and/or greater profit/unit makes perfect commercial sense...
This other stuff... not so much.
A PS3 super slim for a lower price point and/or greater profit/unit makes perfect commercial sense...
This other stuff... not so much.
Let's you put your console in between your set top box and TV, so that you can overlay notifications, search, messages etc over live TV.
Wether Jeff predictions come true or not, his arguments are sound.
Tech is bringing more and more companies to combine their efforts.
Media is a very big trend in computing.
Web access is coming to any electronic device.
Web protocols are shared by tech giants because the public needs a common ground to accept the new, interoperable, products.
Walled gardens will keep on existing but the walls are shifting, so MS & Sony finding grounds to cooperate is not crazy.
Nor is the idea that with the decreased production osts of currents consoles, ms and sony would want to kill the set too box market and sell a few more million units in its stead.
They need to educate the public so when their next, big boxed, consoles arrive, the public doesnt treat them as antiquated products in a market that has shifted towards mobile and very small devices.
Tech is bringing more and more companies to combine their efforts.
Media is a very big trend in computing.
Web access is coming to any electronic device.
Web protocols are shared by tech giants because the public needs a common ground to accept the new, interoperable, products.
Walled gardens will keep on existing but the walls are shifting, so MS & Sony finding grounds to cooperate is not crazy.
Nor is the idea that with the decreased production osts of currents consoles, ms and sony would want to kill the set too box market and sell a few more million units in its stead.
They need to educate the public so when their next, big boxed, consoles arrive, the public doesnt treat them as antiquated products in a market that has shifted towards mobile and very small devices.
The arguments are the worst part. Researching random stuff and making predictions is good fun, but if you want to make an argument, there better be some logic behind it. And there's none. The constant chains of non-sequiturs are not even worth remembering anymore.
Both 360 and PS3 already have good coverage of the horizontal entertainment services like Netflix etc. Sony also has them on their TVs and bluray players. PS4/720 will likely provide even more integration of those services.
I just don't see where this has any relevance to current consoles (I don't see them adding hardware now, they are in a cost reduction phase). Perhaps they might include HDMI passthrough in 720/PS4
They even have a USB sized Stick coming this year same basic features as above.
Interesting, but I think the Pocket TV will be more useful:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/484889112/the-pocket-tv-makes-any-tv-a-smart-tv
It basically a micro PC running Android Ice Cream Sandwich that turns your TV into a smart TV like a smart phone.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/484889112/the-pocket-tv-makes-any-tv-a-smart-tv
Back on topic: Since my 80G with BC PS3 Blu-ray drive went out and the HD is full I'm very interested in this new 4000 model. My TV is also in very bad shape so I hope they have a combo deal.
Maybe they need it to build new apps.
MS and Sony are after Apple s appstore success.
Getting people to use their brand X account to pay for a multitude of products and services get them the sweet 30% share.
So maybe getting new hardware to bring new paid for services is worth the investment.
sure PS720 will be based around that, but the sooner, the better.
HDMI pass through is the new cairo bindings / gstreamer.
jeff_rigby
Banned
You have it backwards, the Xbox 2010 powerpoint stated a Xbox 361 with HDMI pass-thru is to be released this 2012 Christmas season. In addition there were three other Xbox rumors of a release this 2012 season and one with advanced hardware for XTV. I speculated that they were all about the Xbox361 and rumors were getting the next Xbox 361 confused with the Xbox 720. I was so sure of this that I offered to take a ban bet.
I pointed out the Digitimes rumor of a PS4 releasing this 2012 Christmas season is most likely a new PS3 that had features that confused the leakers into believing it was a PS4 with Motion/camera interface and 20 million sold the first year. Since we now know a PS4 is not selling in 2012 the rumor has to be about a new PS3 chassis. IF it's the least bit accurate about everything else, it has to have features that make it VERY attractive and it has to be cheap. To my mind gesture recognition and cheap won't sell 20,000,000 in one year to a AAA saturated market unless the type of Gesture recognition is more accurate and not possible on the current PS3 or it has HDMI pass-thru or is VERY very cheap or a combination of all of the above. The PS3 slim didn't even sell that many in one year.
So at a time when sales of the PS3 are dropping what is changing to sell 20,000,000 PS3s in a year? We now have a new 4000 series PS3 coming when many said a new PS3 was not coming. Is it the rumored Digitimes PS4 and what features does it have?
All the above should be obvious NOW. We have; I don't believe and I don't think but no thought to market trends, Software and Standards trends, patent publishing and job postings.
Random information?????? That's insulting and flat out inaccurate. How much weight to give the four data points that converge in pairs so close in time as to be exactly the same is random information? The big argument that no-one touches is the market, the money to be made with XTV and AR demands something like the Xbox 361 from Microsoft (in addition to purchasing Skype) and the same from Sony. 900 million connected living room platforms to sell to; Smart TV, game console, Apple TV, Roku and how many IPTV services like Netflix, Hulu, Vudu and soon Sony.
I'm really really having a problem understanding why there are so many that don't see the multiple trends that point to this. It's been planned since before 2010 for both (late 2007 for Sony and GTKwebkit) and the PS3 4000 series chassis since before 9/2010 (shrinking Cell was going to be extremely difficult and was postponed, the 2010 1PPU4SPU patent is the answer to that).
The Microsoft powerpoint should be read by all who think this is random. I've said this before, large corporations forward think in decades and steer technologies. IBM is behind Cairo, Intel is behind Wayland and was behind Gsteamer. Sony has Tim Bird moving Linux and eLinux in directions Sony wants. Google gives money for the Summer of Code and more.
I usually agree with things you say and read your theories with fascination and fully support you. However, I'd say take the Digitimes rumour with a grain of salt. They've been known to a 50:50% reliable source. I would certainly say that the rumour of selling 20 million new ps3 units seem far-fetched simply because even Sony isn't projecting to sell as much. They want 16 million ps3s and ps2 combined in this fiscal year. That leaves around 12-13 million ps3s which is a far cry from the 20 million digitimes 'leak'.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
The main issue I have against Jeff's XBox 361 speculation is that I really think MS would've hyped it more by this point if it was going to happen. I can't see them launching a new SKU without a substantial amount of hoopla, and most significantly I'm not sure how such a model would square with their recent steps to sell 360 under a contract deal.
I can see there being something of a backlash if suddenly they start selling a new ultra-cheap XBox sku so close to tying people in for 2 years on the old model.
My speculation has always been informed mainly by economic considerations, stuff like a new PS3 SKU preceding PS4 is something I've been expecting for a long time now simply due to the anticipated price-point of a new hardware offering and Sony's stated desire to prolong the PS3 cycle for at least another 4 years.
I can see there being something of a backlash if suddenly they start selling a new ultra-cheap XBox sku so close to tying people in for 2 years on the old model.
My speculation has always been informed mainly by economic considerations, stuff like a new PS3 SKU preceding PS4 is something I've been expecting for a long time now simply due to the anticipated price-point of a new hardware offering and Sony's stated desire to prolong the PS3 cycle for at least another 4 years.
iamshadowlark
Banned
I should ask you.
say what you want about his theories, but dude is on top of pretty much every major development in consumer tech.
jeff_rigby
Banned
20 million sold in the first year is something that would be hard to misunderstand/corrupt but is the most outrageous claim. To my mind it's something that has to be understood in terms of what's going to be happening with 800 million new connected living room CE platforms from now till 2016. Sony is planning to get a large share of the 2013 sales. Look at the Sony 2014 projected NET earnings....that is also so high as to be unbelievable unless Sony plans to capture a large share of the market.
It actually sounds exactly like the kind of a dick move MS would do
They could simply be getting rid off units that they have since they seemed to have really overestimated their Christmas last year. A new SKU wouldn't really be hyped up too much before it launched simply because people would stop buying the old SKU. It'd be announcement one week, launch the next. Like Sony did with the first Slim. Also you're right a new ps3 coming out is really a no-brainer. Sony has clearly stated they want to capture the children and family market this Christmas. For that you need family-friendly games which they have in the form of LBP Karting, PABR and Sly 4 with no hardcore game hitting Q4 this year. They also have wonderbook which should (and by all evidence will) spur the interest in the platform and they need a family friend price.
Jim Ryan has pretty hinted at all these in his interview with the UK OPM last year when they said they'll refocus on the family market and that big things would come out of Sony for the year's end, things about which many will write about. He also hinted at a huge price cut when he mentioned that they want to PS3 to hit its stride the same way the PS2 did when the Slim came out (he didn't specifically reference the Slim but rather the 130 pound price range).
I actually don't have the problem imagining 20 million units being sold next year. If the price drops to the 160 euro territory and they manage to successfully pull off family-oriented shift in strategy this Christmas I can see 20 million units being sold (ok maybe around 17). My problem is that even Sony isn't thinking that it will sell as much. One could say that they might expect a huge pick-up in the next financial year which would still be next year but wouldn't show in the FY predictions. But that's a very hard stretch since the PS3 Slim-this-time-for-real will be releasing this year so the moment will be there from this Christmas, pretty much.
Having said that the Sony financial's and Kaz's plan are very, very vague and I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't completely accurate either.
Canis lupus
Member
no one knew about the Xbox 360S until it was about to hit the shelf.
jeff_rigby
Banned
You answer your own argument. The Xbox 361 can not be mentioned until enough are available to meet demand and stocks of older Xbox 360 are low. As soon as the Xbox 361 features are known it will stop sales of older consoles, same for Sony. They are doing all they can to deplete inventory. And yes I'd be pissed but is that going to bother Microsoft?
I agree but there was the issue with shrinking the PS3 Cell. Only after I reread the 2010 patent did I realize that it was the answer to refreshed PS3.
Hard to believe when were still waiting for that PS3.5 of yours too.
And what the hell are those?
youmustbenewhere.jpg
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
jeff_rigby said:
True, but Sony have got their GamesCom presser to highlight new PS3, when and where are MS going to show their hand? I presume you're thinking of a November/Thanksgiving rollout, so I guess some kind of big announcement October-ish would do. My concern (on MS part) would be getting that to mesh with the big push on software that happens around that time.
Also, I'd hope that it'd bother MS. Because if not they are edging dangerously into the zone of carelessness and arrogance that hurt Sony so badly.
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
Sorry, this is just getting wacky. You are doing the classic mistake of counting the hits and ignoring everything else.
Looking at their willful abandonment of the original Xbox, Windows Mobile and Windows phone 7.5 I'd say they're there already.
jeff_rigby
Banned
I don't think there will be a big price cut at first and Microsoft is going to support HD Homerun and is working with Cable companies to provide RVU support which allows older Xbox 360's many of the same features (HDMI pass-thru not needed). I'd guess that Xbox361 and the 4000 series PS3 will be sold with Motion Cameras as packages and at current prices, the bundle making it attractive.
mohsinkhan
Member
I think my 40 gb ps3 is due for an upgrade, will wait to see what this is
Live Free or Die
Banned
Then it doesnt happened?
Spacetime will melt with rigby's soul and the endtimes begin.
jeff_rigby
Banned
LOL I'll survive.
I'm 60, have been a SYSOP on Compuserve before the Internet became the internet. I was partners with two other guys in the 80's and we published Software for the Atari ST with one title purchased by EA. I've attended trade shows like COMDEX, manned the Atari ST booth several years in a row, attended various parties thrown for developers at Comdex shows (those were fun) and more.
This is just fun solving puzzles and I cheat by looking in the back of the book by doing lots of Google research.
There is too little information to be 100% accurate about any of this but in order of probability this is a consensus of this thread:
1) A new refreshed Cheaper PS3 is coming for this season.
2) It may have minor changes to increase it's value to consumers or to target a different demographic.
3) Software updates are coming this season to support more XTV features; HTML5 apps, Media rich HTML5 apps, Full browser (SVG, HTML5 <video>, WebGL) and Playready DRM to support IPTV. Sony for the first time can have their own DASH IPTV service like Netflix. Netflix will no longer need a 21 meg app as the majority of the code to support IPTV will be native to the PS3. App size can drop to about 3 megs for IPTV applications for everyone.
Augmented Reality uses many of the same libraries needed to support a Full web browser so AR now becomes fully supported (native) on the PS3 for the first time.
The disagreement is over #2 above and how much and what type of upgrades are going to be in this new PS3 chassis. The Slim got CEC commands which is just a serial line in the HDMI port that talks to your TV or Stereo and allows the PS3 to turn on and change inputs on your TV. The pre-configured command scripts are minimal and not able to be edited at this time. That's something that should change.
Anything like upgrading to USB 3.0 to allow for a higher res camera or wider bandwidth to also provide IR info for depth data is a major change. Pre-processing in the camera is possible but adds to the camera cost. The Depth (reflected intensity) method used in the Sony depth camera patent would need one or the other above. So no upgrades without MAJOR changes.
The same new technology that makes a new generation Game console economically practical (AMD building block design, TSVs and SOC) as well as cheap SOCs like the one in the next post, can also be applied to a refresh and at the same time update the hardware in a PS3 or Xbox360 and still sell cheaper. Will they do this or do a dumb refresh (just scale the CPU and GPU to a smaller die size). It appears that this would not be easily possible for Cell and my opinion is Sony delayed the PS3 refresh till this time when AMD could provide everything but PPC and SPUs (2010 Sony patent) for a SOC.
When you add to this that within 2 years a PS3 or Xbox can not be sold in California unless it has low power modes and Microsoft planned to release a Xbox 361 with HDMI pass-thru and low power modes (including standby with instant wake) for this season, I think Sony will do the same. A dumb refreshed PS3 can not support Low power modes or HDMI pass-thru. AMD building blocks do support low power modes.
The Microsoft powerpoint has both PS4 and Xbox720 supporting XTV; Google TV (speculated for Sony and GoogleTV has HDMI pass-thru) and the 720 even including a TV tuner with the same HDMI pass thru that the Xbox 361 supports. Xbox 720 vs. the competition is not about games, it's about XTV and the money to be made. Sony is also a media company, shouldn't we assume this making money with XTV applies even more to Sony.
If Sony wants a part of the XTV market they must provide a better experience than the $30 android stick mentioned by Brad Grenz below. HDMI pass-thru and NUI control (Voice, gesture or Phone/tablet) as well as serving to Handhelds.
Brad Grenz
Member
Interesting, but I think the Pocket TV will be more useful:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/484889112/the-pocket-tv-makes-any-tv-a-smart-tv
It basically a micro PC running Android Ice Cream Sandwich that turns your TV into a smart TV like a smart phone.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/484889112/the-pocket-tv-makes-any-tv-a-smart-tv
There are a couple of those "projects" on Kickstarter right now. It's pretty clearly a cynical attempt to market these devices at a premium price point before the market is flooded by generic Chinese Android stick for under $30 in a few months.
I should be doing hw
Member
If it looks anything close to this I'd be happy to buy it, even without all the speculated Rigby features/nonsense.It looks like the original ps3 proportions, just smaller.
Am I the only one that couldn't give a fuck about passthrough 'features'? I don't need that much integration, I'm sorry
JohnnySasaki86
Member
I really don't believe there will a PS3.5 or 361. I respect you and your theory's Jeff and believe some of the things you posted a ways back on 3D stacking and HSA architecture for PS3 were well supported and have merit, but I'm sorry this is complete nonsense.
This next ps3 will probably be slimmer and there will be a reduction in the die sizes. You predicted PS3.5 with the hdmi pass thru would have wifi b/g/n. thats already being proven false with the filling. The rsx and cell will both be reduced to at least 32nm, but may be on one SoC at 28nm similar to what they did with 360. Hopefully that makes it significantly smaller and similar looking to that picture. This should be accompanied by a price drop and hopefully will allow Sony to move some serious units for the holiday and maybe do a PS All Star bundle, and allow them to gain momentum into a PS4 launch in late 2013/ some time in 2014.( I do still believe its 2014 like you). I really believe this is the best we can hope for with the new model. The chassis change might not even be a significant one, we don't know yet.
As far as the 361 rumor to launch in holiday 2012 in that 2010 document, thing could have easily changed since then as that severly out dated info.
This next ps3 will probably be slimmer and there will be a reduction in the die sizes. You predicted PS3.5 with the hdmi pass thru would have wifi b/g/n. thats already being proven false with the filling. The rsx and cell will both be reduced to at least 32nm, but may be on one SoC at 28nm similar to what they did with 360. Hopefully that makes it significantly smaller and similar looking to that picture. This should be accompanied by a price drop and hopefully will allow Sony to move some serious units for the holiday and maybe do a PS All Star bundle, and allow them to gain momentum into a PS4 launch in late 2013/ some time in 2014.( I do still believe its 2014 like you). I really believe this is the best we can hope for with the new model. The chassis change might not even be a significant one, we don't know yet.
As far as the 361 rumor to launch in holiday 2012 in that 2010 document, thing could have easily changed since then as that severly out dated info.
Canis lupus
Member
The right half of that design looks like a chopped off Wii lol.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Awesome post. I love reading this kinda treasure hunt.
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