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Official 1up Yours GDC Week Thread of Resistance Hatin', Babbling Vagabonds
- Thread starter traveler
- Start date
Excellent podcast and start for the week. If the rest of the podcasts this week are up to this level of quality, we're really in for a treat.
One last point, though- Shawn's point about the great postmodern moments in MGS2 is sort of what I was trying to get at above- I don't think the best scenes in the MGS series occur in cutscenes (or because they're in cutscenes) and I don't think the hardcore MGS cutscene defense force honestly thinks they do either. No, the best moments in the MGS series happen when Kojima screws with our expectations; they're the moments when he pulls the rug out from under our feet in some way after getting us to expect nothing but pure cinema by involving the player in some manner. (See: the two examples I mentioned above, the postmodern moments in MGS2, Psycho Mantis in MGS1, the "interactive cutscene" that was, basically, the MGS3 bike ride, and numerous other places in the series) Much as it might seem otherwise, I think Kojima recognizes the unique advantages player controlled storytelling has to offer over cutscenes.
Anyway, off to listen to today's GFW.
Edit:
Really? To each his own, I suppose. I guess I could be out here all on my own then. (I personally thought the narration, as well as the scenes that accompanied it, was pretty heavy handed and overdone. The simple action of firing the bullet was much more poignant to me.)
One last point, though- Shawn's point about the great postmodern moments in MGS2 is sort of what I was trying to get at above- I don't think the best scenes in the MGS series occur in cutscenes (or because they're in cutscenes) and I don't think the hardcore MGS cutscene defense force honestly thinks they do either. No, the best moments in the MGS series happen when Kojima screws with our expectations; they're the moments when he pulls the rug out from under our feet in some way after getting us to expect nothing but pure cinema by involving the player in some manner. (See: the two examples I mentioned above, the postmodern moments in MGS2, Psycho Mantis in MGS1, the "interactive cutscene" that was, basically, the MGS3 bike ride, and numerous other places in the series) Much as it might seem otherwise, I think Kojima recognizes the unique advantages player controlled storytelling has to offer over cutscenes.
Anyway, off to listen to today's GFW.
Edit:
dralla said:
Really? To each his own, I suppose. I guess I could be out here all on my own then. (I personally thought the narration, as well as the scenes that accompanied it, was pretty heavy handed and overdone. The simple action of firing the bullet was much more poignant to me.)
dr3upmushroom
Banned
GFW is recommendable anyways.fallout said:
Assaulted Nuts
Banned
Great podcast guys! Lorne and Amy were great, and we may be witnessing a return to the greatness of the old cast! Back when we had Garnet, Shane, John and Luke... thing were great, but now we've got Brian and Shawn, which changes things up immensely.
Just as long as GFW stays good, so I can maintain my fix ...
Just as long as GFW stays good, so I can maintain my fix ...
Great podcast.
I would like to know what sort of emotional connection shawn gets with alyx apart from the sexual, i want to hit that shit so hard emotion. That's all that i can remember feeling for her durring my time with HL2. Clearly im a shallow prick but thats fine with me :lol . Unfortunatly i just didnt get anything else from her, all she really seemed to do was flirt her ass off with me.
As for story telling i did what hennig mentioned durring HL2, tried to shoot people, threw items at them and so on, just because i could. But at the same time i dont think the HL2 story grabbed me enough to give a shit, unless its the G-man which i always found to be awesome.
Can't wait for the rest of the weeks podcasts, keep it up 1UP!
I would like to know what sort of emotional connection shawn gets with alyx apart from the sexual, i want to hit that shit so hard emotion. That's all that i can remember feeling for her durring my time with HL2. Clearly im a shallow prick but thats fine with me :lol . Unfortunatly i just didnt get anything else from her, all she really seemed to do was flirt her ass off with me.
As for story telling i did what hennig mentioned durring HL2, tried to shoot people, threw items at them and so on, just because i could. But at the same time i dont think the HL2 story grabbed me enough to give a shit, unless its the G-man which i always found to be awesome.
Can't wait for the rest of the weeks podcasts, keep it up 1UP!
evlcookie said:Great podcast.
I would like to know what sort of emotional connection shawn gets with alyx apart from the sexual, i want to hit that shit so hard emotion. That's all that i can remember feeling for her durring my time with HL2. Clearly im a shallow prick but thats fine with me :lol . Unfortunatly i just didnt get anything else from her, all she really seemed to do was flirt her ass off with me.
As for story telling i did what hennig mentioned durring HL2, tried to shoot people, threw items at them and so on, just because i could. But at the same time i dont think the HL2 story grabbed me enough to give a shit, unless its the G-man which i always found to be awesome.
Can't wait for the rest of the weeks podcasts, keep it up 1UP!
Did you play Ep. 1 or Ep. 2? (If you're only talking about the original HL2, I might be able to understand.)
Zombie James
Banned
The whole cutscene discussion was ridiculous. Some things can't be told in-game!
Very good podcast. Amy's voice reminds me of a friend who works for Right Stuf, so as cheesy as it sounds, I was instantly pulled in.
Shawn, you got picked on a good bit in the podcast. It's all good man. Your thoughts and feelings on the subject matter may run against the grain in what console gamers (or maybe gamers in general) are used to, but that's what makes interesting conversation. Especially knowing it's not out of playing devil's advocate or something like that. If it gets people thinking outside of the comfort zone just a little bit, it's good stuff. *thumbs up*
Shawn, you got picked on a good bit in the podcast. It's all good man. Your thoughts and feelings on the subject matter may run against the grain in what console gamers (or maybe gamers in general) are used to, but that's what makes interesting conversation. Especially knowing it's not out of playing devil's advocate or something like that. If it gets people thinking outside of the comfort zone just a little bit, it's good stuff. *thumbs up*
evlcookie said:Great podcast.
I would like to know what sort of emotional connection shawn gets with alyx apart from the sexual, i want to hit that shit so hard emotion. That's all that i can remember feeling for her durring my time with HL2. Clearly im a shallow prick but thats fine with me :lol . Unfortunatly i just didnt get anything else from her, all she really seemed to do was flirt her ass off with me.
As for story telling i did what hennig mentioned durring HL2, tried to shoot people, threw items at them and so on, just because i could. But at the same time i dont think the HL2 story grabbed me enough to give a shit, unless its the G-man which i always found to be awesome.
Can't wait for the rest of the weeks podcasts, keep it up 1UP!
That's hard hitting incisive commentary right there. Something you just don't expect to find in a typical 1UY thread.
traveler said:
Yea i did. I could be totally forgetting things that happened, i do have a TERRIBLE memory. I know i had to
save her with that bug junk
If you want to refresh my memory then by all means please do so. I should probably play through HL2 again, but arghh that hovercraft crap, i don't think i could take it again.
evlcookie said:
Well, it wasn't so much a blatantly "You are supposed to feel bad/sad/happy for Alyx" moment like you mention that did it for me; it was more the subtle pieces that continued to build the connection throughout the games. For a more specific example, the scene when you get out of the stalker train underground and turn around and see her holding her head really struck me. You might miss it if you keep heading forwards, but, for the observant gamer, there are plenty of little touching animations/scenes/places like that.
Very interesting views from Lanning, wish he could have stayed longer. If this is only the first day, we're in for a real treat this week.
And for those that haven't listened to GFW yet check it out, Warren Spector has an almost opposite view on story in games. Great listen there as well.
And for those that haven't listened to GFW yet check it out, Warren Spector has an almost opposite view on story in games. Great listen there as well.
DjangoReinhardt
Thinks he should have been the one to kill Batman's parents.
Hennig's cutscene defense hammered home the fact that there is a good reason why the vast majority of game stories feel stapled on. They weren't trying to do anything more than slap a boilerplate pulp film story on top of boilerplate game design. I imagine it's pretty difficult to tell a love story without cutscenes if the player's only choices for interaction are "Jump", "Melee", "Shoot", "Reload", "Move", "Pause" . . .
Naughty Dawg has to use cutscenes because they failed to design a game that could tell their story organically, or because they failed to write a story that could be organically expressed through the game they designed. Not that they look at it in those terms, though.
Naughty Dawg has to use cutscenes because they failed to design a game that could tell their story organically, or because they failed to write a story that could be organically expressed through the game they designed. Not that they look at it in those terms, though.
I'd love for Shawn to answer my piss poor question since he seems to bring up HL2 everytime story comes up in the podcast. There is no wrong answer here, i would just like to know what sort of connection you or even anyone had with alyx by the end of episode 2. I'm in no way trying to start an argument.
@Traveler. I LOVE how half life does its cutscenes, i can remember alyx being nervous during one of them and i thought it was incredibly cute. However i never got a deep emotional attachement to her, it was always about the flirting and sexual tension between her and you (gordon).
@Traveler. I LOVE how half life does its cutscenes, i can remember alyx being nervous during one of them and i thought it was incredibly cute. However i never got a deep emotional attachement to her, it was always about the flirting and sexual tension between her and you (gordon).
I'm an anyone!evlcookie said:
I actually made this post in last week's thread, but it got lost in the Resistance bullshit. I'll just copy and paste the whole thing, since the BioShock stuff is kind of related to what we're discussing here ... even though I haven't listened to the podcast yet and really, really need to get to bed. Alyx stuff is the second paragraph.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9783235&postcount=214
Anyway, Shawn, when you were discussing different means of conveying story and character traits other than using cutscenes, I think you were sort of referencing Bioshock there with the tapes and stuff hanging on the wall. I don't want to get into everything that game did (good or bad), but one of the things that I felt it did really well was providing a really interesting background story for you to discover. Like, walking into a room and seeing the skeleton couple lying in the bed and thinking to yourself: "Holy shit. What happened here?" and you find the tape and start listening. Meanwhile, as you're listening to the tape, you find yourself kind of looking at the room and learning about their daughter and what happened with that. It's just such a great way of expanding upon the idea of narrative in games and how they can be different than film and novels.
Also, I think that's where the Alyx example is perfect. The more time you spend with her and the more shit that happens, you do feel a certain attachment to the character, but you're never really having this "Okay, kill two more bosses and we will have sex now." kind of scenario. She'll do these subtle little things like wink at you in the car, or hug you in moments that may or may not be romantic. There's never a moment where she's like: "Ohhhh, Gordon! You're sooooo strong!" ... it actually respects the idea of the development of a relationship from a perspective that you're not used to seeing in a game. The only time you ever really get it thrown in your face is when Eli starts joking about how they need to start repopulating. And that didn't even feel forced. It was funny and natural.
traveler said:
I have no idea. Story just doesnt seem to grab me as much as it does with everyone else around here. I enjoy playing games, love it, i might get into a story durring the game but ask me any questions a few days later and i would have forgotten 99% of it.
@fallout. I totally agree, everything in HL2 was so natural and thats what made it a blast. The winks, hugs, shyness, nervousness all added to the attraction and connection to alyx. The emotional connection i had with her is hard to explain, well its feeling that way. It had that funny "gordon is so getting that hot babe" and "if she dies right now infront of me i wouldnt really care".
I wish my memory wasnt as crappy as it is, then i could actually join in with some great discussions regarding story and emotions.
Edit: I should also clarify something. Maybe i am hearing shawn wrong. If he is talking about HOW half-life creates that connection then i totally agree 100% because it goes back to the way she acts around you, facial animations, the winks, hugs and so on. If he was talking about THE connection you get with her then that's what im not feeling.
Amy Hennig basically mirrored my argument against Shawn's "cutscenes are bad" argument. as much as i like half-life, i don't necessarily think every game needs to tell a story like half-life does. it's silly to say cutscenes are not a valid tool for games to deliver story. games are not totally unlike film -- games are basically capable of absorbing the qualities of film, so it's only natural for games to borrow things like cutscenes.
and Shawn still doesn't seem to get that metal gear solid's delivery (dialog, script, action, etc) are arguably postmodern in nature. it is intentional. it is ridiculous, it is sometimes silly, but it's not by accident. metal gear solid games are masterpieces, just like half-life games -- they simply go about it differently (in terms of delivery but also in terms of how the dialog and script is written).
edit:
supporting argument:
and Shawn still doesn't seem to get that metal gear solid's delivery (dialog, script, action, etc) are arguably postmodern in nature. it is intentional. it is ridiculous, it is sometimes silly, but it's not by accident. metal gear solid games are masterpieces, just like half-life games -- they simply go about it differently (in terms of delivery but also in terms of how the dialog and script is written).
edit:
supporting argument:
abacab driver
Banned
Lorne was a great guest.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Well, I'll bring up the CoD4 "moment" as proof that there are ways to tell a story and invoke emotional experience without relying on watching a video for 10 minutes.
That said, I also love Mass Effect, which is essentially a 20 hour movie...
That said, I also love Mass Effect, which is essentially a 20 hour movie...
Reilly said:
This is pretty much my thoughts as well. I recognize both, I appreciate both and the majority of gamers out there do as well. I do admit that I find myself lending on the side of taking control of the scene and showing the gamer what you want them to see though.
I found myself really agreeing with Hennig's example of Half Life and the nature of gamers. Doing random stuff while the game is sitting there attempting to advance a scene, the story, or whatever. Sometimes, if you give a gamer an itch, they will take a mile and what you hoped to convey is missed completely. Of course, HL is a great game anyways.
Of course, it all comes down to preference, design and your goal. If you do it right, either way can work out wonderfully.
A couple of thoughts I had on today's podcast.
1. It was very interesting, I hope the rest are as good or even better than today's.
2. I really liked the discussion Shawn and Amy had. Personally, I think telling the stories within gameplay itself is the right way to do it and Valve is definitely leading the way there. It's obvious that they've had success, I can't think of a any other story or universe(in a game) that has had as much of an impact on me as HL2 and the episodes that followed. Ultimately it will be about developing that sort design philosophy and finding ways in which to rely less and less on this sort of a crutch that cutscenes are now. I think videogames definitely have a unique way to tell a story and tell it in a way that may possibly have as much impact as other sort of media. That's important and worth experimenting with if nothing else. Having said that, I don't think conventional cutscenes will ever be completely phased out. In the right game, they can be effective and appropriate.
Also, to a person that's not looking for an amazing narrative or immersion in a game, I doubt it makes any difference.
Now on to one of the things I didn't like about today's podcast. Since you have guests on, I think it would make sense to keep a bit more on topic. :lol You can talk about metal gear or whatever on any other podcast. I would of loved to hear more about developing adventure games and the ideas behind that more than anything else today...
1. It was very interesting, I hope the rest are as good or even better than today's.
2. I really liked the discussion Shawn and Amy had. Personally, I think telling the stories within gameplay itself is the right way to do it and Valve is definitely leading the way there. It's obvious that they've had success, I can't think of a any other story or universe(in a game) that has had as much of an impact on me as HL2 and the episodes that followed. Ultimately it will be about developing that sort design philosophy and finding ways in which to rely less and less on this sort of a crutch that cutscenes are now. I think videogames definitely have a unique way to tell a story and tell it in a way that may possibly have as much impact as other sort of media. That's important and worth experimenting with if nothing else. Having said that, I don't think conventional cutscenes will ever be completely phased out. In the right game, they can be effective and appropriate.
Also, to a person that's not looking for an amazing narrative or immersion in a game, I doubt it makes any difference.
Now on to one of the things I didn't like about today's podcast. Since you have guests on, I think it would make sense to keep a bit more on topic. :lol You can talk about metal gear or whatever on any other podcast. I would of loved to hear more about developing adventure games and the ideas behind that more than anything else today...
I cant imagine the MGS series without the cutscene. It wouldn't even be Metal Gear Solid without them and it would be a completely different experience. The reason why I adore the MGS series is not only because of the cutscenes, its because of everything from the clever and insane humor of Kojima sama, and the entertaining characters and unique bosses. Its all part of the package and if you took away the cutscene from the game, it wouldn't be MGS.
I was just playing No more Heroes (the only good, non ported third party real game on the Wii :lol ) and that game blew me away. The awesome cutscene in the games was really the main thing why I loved the game. Suda san portrayed the character's personality through those cutscenes perfectly, especially Travis.
. I heard SUDU san is a big fan of Kojima sama and I'm sure the unique bosses and insane cutscene where inspired by MGS.
So there is no such think as in game story telling are better than cutscene ect.. Both are a viable means of conveying the story to the gamer. Oh and you liked the way Half life unfold its story? well guess what, I fucking hated it and got bored of it really fast. Different people different tastes I guess. So Shawn, please stop with this silly argument that X is better than Y and inforcing your opinion on things. Its getting old and silly. Ok we got it already that you prefer PC games and western style of development and game design.
Oh, and please dont get me started on the fucking awesome Final Fantasy cutscene.
I was just playing No more Heroes (the only good, non ported third party real game on the Wii :lol ) and that game blew me away. The awesome cutscene in the games was really the main thing why I loved the game. Suda san portrayed the character's personality through those cutscenes perfectly, especially Travis.
I though he was just your average otaku and assassin wannabe but was pleasantly surprised that he is just fucking insane and is just as blood thirsty as the other top ranks assassins. Those awesome and gore happy final blows couldn't be done as well as they were done without the cutscenes
So there is no such think as in game story telling are better than cutscene ect.. Both are a viable means of conveying the story to the gamer. Oh and you liked the way Half life unfold its story? well guess what, I fucking hated it and got bored of it really fast. Different people different tastes I guess. So Shawn, please stop with this silly argument that X is better than Y and inforcing your opinion on things. Its getting old and silly. Ok we got it already that you prefer PC games and western style of development and game design.
Oh, and please dont get me started on the fucking awesome Final Fantasy cutscene.
dr3upmushroom
Banned
Liar.skip said:
I'm on board with Shawn in thinking that MGS3 has some of the most inane cutscenes I've ever seen... the whole game felt like it was trying to rival Xenosaga for how little I could care, there was nothing clever or unique about the characters other than they were like bad super villains, and ranted like bad super villains.
One of the few times I've been really sucked into a story for a game, was early on in Half-Life Episode 2, when all I got is the damn gravity gun, and Alyx actually has something that fires bullets... Nothing much came of it, but it was a unique feeling of dependency, that all of a sudden you needed her to live, and not the other way around.
However, I'll also point out that I loved Mass Effect, and aside from picking "nice guy" or "asshole" that game's story is about as non-interactive as it gets. Both methods work, but I still feel that about 90% of stories in games these days are just a worthless glue that holds a concept together, and nothing more.
One of the few times I've been really sucked into a story for a game, was early on in Half-Life Episode 2, when all I got is the damn gravity gun, and Alyx actually has something that fires bullets... Nothing much came of it, but it was a unique feeling of dependency, that all of a sudden you needed her to live, and not the other way around.
However, I'll also point out that I loved Mass Effect, and aside from picking "nice guy" or "asshole" that game's story is about as non-interactive as it gets. Both methods work, but I still feel that about 90% of stories in games these days are just a worthless glue that holds a concept together, and nothing more.
Kabuki Waq
Member
MGS cutscenes are brilliantly directed and horribly written. SO cheasy at times that it hurts. Also Kojima makes the cutscenes so long and dull at times that it overshadows the gameplay content.
MGS would even be good enough for Uwe Boll if it got turned into a movie.
MGS would even be good enough for Uwe Boll if it got turned into a movie.
Great show and enjoyed every second.
I'm not sure anyone actually understood Shawn's point. From what I understood, he's basically saying because video games are such a new medium, the methods in which the story is being delivered is somewhat immature. Borrowing from other media such as movies.
Such as his example of the first movies being a camera sitting in front of a stage play. Why would you watch a movie like that if you could just go see a stage play? Instead movies have matured and change the camera perspective constantly in order to manipulate the story being given to the viewer. In this way you could say, why would you watch a cut scene? Why not just go and watch a movie? When the industry matures they will have found ways to keep the player in control while still being given the story as it is required. Many games already do this of course, but it's at such an early stage that it's debatable if it's any better than just using a cut scene anyway.
I can understand why no one really caught on to Shawn's point. It's tough to articulate that argument on the spot, let alone this post I have written here (it's taken me 15 minutes in editing and writing just to get the point across myself).
I'm not sure anyone actually understood Shawn's point. From what I understood, he's basically saying because video games are such a new medium, the methods in which the story is being delivered is somewhat immature. Borrowing from other media such as movies.
Such as his example of the first movies being a camera sitting in front of a stage play. Why would you watch a movie like that if you could just go see a stage play? Instead movies have matured and change the camera perspective constantly in order to manipulate the story being given to the viewer. In this way you could say, why would you watch a cut scene? Why not just go and watch a movie? When the industry matures they will have found ways to keep the player in control while still being given the story as it is required. Many games already do this of course, but it's at such an early stage that it's debatable if it's any better than just using a cut scene anyway.
I can understand why no one really caught on to Shawn's point. It's tough to articulate that argument on the spot, let alone this post I have written here (it's taken me 15 minutes in editing and writing just to get the point across myself).
I understood it well, basically he was games to have their own narrative language. But I think it's a premature argument because nobody has thought of a way to do it. Saying DO IT is all well and good, but even Shawn is clearly aware that he can't think of a realistic alternative. We have hints and trails at how it could be done right, being ICO and SotC - but it's just like Amy said. They are the equivalent of poetry and I don't see how you could fit a heavy contextual story into that framework. I just don't ever seeing it working, at least with how games are now.Mar_ said:
Shawn brings some much needed Perspective to 1upyours, not that he is allways right, just that he offers a good "different" Opinion on many things.
Only thing i don't like so far is when Shawn get's called out, ttrys to explain himself and after 4 Words just cause the rest of the Gang dosn't agree he get's drownd out and Garnett, Bryan and Shane talk louder over him. Thats not how you have any kind of Conversation.
Let the Man speak for christ sake.
Only thing i don't like so far is when Shawn get's called out, ttrys to explain himself and after 4 Words just cause the rest of the Gang dosn't agree he get's drownd out and Garnett, Bryan and Shane talk louder over him. Thats not how you have any kind of Conversation.
Let the Man speak for christ sake.
Yeah I didn't like Bryan ganging up on him too, he'll find his groove soon though. I think he has been a little too much at odds with everyone else since he came on though and he's obviously not talking about stuff he agrees upon because he's quiet for really long periodsWaku said: