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[Foxtastical]

Narrow minded thinking, the way of the future?

Have some of you ever researched some type of media's history? Look at film and photography. You'll find some fun similarities.

 

[KolosLazar16]

A-mazing podcast. If the next 3 are remotely close in awesomeness (and they seem to be shaping up to be) I can't wait.

 

[Dartastic]

After listening to the whole rant about storytelling in games, I was wondering what Shawn thought about the events right before a ranking match in No More Heroes. To me, those instances struck a nice balance of letting the player maintain control, while at the same time advancing the story. When I held the Wiimote up to my ear it felt like I was being spoken to, and not Travis. It felt like a really uniquely "gaming" storytelling device, and I loved it.

Obviously not all games can do that due to hardware restraints, but do you think that perhaps developers should start using the hardware to it's "fullest"? By that I mean using functionality that's outside of what we conceive as "traditional" gameplay. For example, a game could send the player personal messages through their XBL or PSN account before they jump into their game, similar to what occasionally happened in Super Mario Galaxy. However, instead of only letting the player read the messages, the developers could let the player reply to the message and let them see their reply further on in the game. If done correctly, something like that could really help immerse the player in a uniquely "game" story device.

 

[zombi]

Its hilarious to me that people are attacking Shawn for his argument that games should tell their story through what makes them unique. This doesnt mean that you cant enjoy games that tell story through cut scenes but that those that engage you at a level only available to games are embracing their medium. Apparently people feel morally obligated to defend specific games with their heart and soul to the point of incoherency. Good podcast, look forward to more this week.

 

[traveler]

After listening to the whole rant about storytelling in games, I was wondering what Shawn thought about the events right before a ranking match in No More Heroes. To me, those instances struck a nice balance of letting the player maintain control, while at the same time advancing the story. When I held the Wiimote up to my ear it felt like I was being spoken to, and not Travis. It felt like a really uniquely "gaming" storytelling device, and I loved it.

Obviously not all games can do that due to hardware restraints, but do you think that perhaps developers should start using the hardware to it's "fullest"? By that I mean using functionality that's outside of what we conceive as "traditional" gameplay. For example, a game could send the player personal messages through their XBL or PSN account before they jump into their game, similar to what occasionally happened in Super Mario Galaxy. However, instead of only letting the player read the messages, the developers could let the player reply to the message and let them see their reply further on in the game. If done correctly, something like that could really help immerse the player in a uniquely "game" story device.

I haven't played NMH, but are those scenes sort of akin to the moments in MGS where you're watching a cutscene but some part of it employs something unique to gaming? (The controller rumbling due to Psycho Mantis, for example) I actually like those type of cutscenes because their sorta bait-and-switch approach.

 

[FartOfWar]

After listening to the whole rant about storytelling in games, I was wondering what Shawn thought about the events right before a ranking match in No More Heroes. To me, those instances struck a nice balance of letting the player maintain control, while at the same time advancing the story. When I held the Wiimote up to my ear it felt like I was being spoken to, and not Travis. It felt like a really uniquely "gaming" storytelling device, and I loved it.

.

I forgot to mention that part....fucking awesome but also funny as Wii Degree has a game where you're taking phoned in take out orders for a restaurant.

 

[Dartastic]

I haven't played NMH, but are those scenes sort of akin to the moments in MGS where you're watching a cutscene but some part of it employs something unique to gaming? (The controller rumbling due to Psycho Mantis, for example) I actually like those type of cutscenes because their sorta bait-and-switch approach.

Sorta. They're not really cutscenes like you would see in MGS because you still maintain control, but you can only make Travis walk and it's very obvious where you have to go. At the same time, your Wiimote "rings" like a cell phone, and you have to bring the controller up to your ear to listen to the resulting dialog. It's pretty cool, and they almost always get you psyched up for the upcoming boss battle.

I forgot to mention that part....fucking awesome but also funny as Wii Degree has a game where you're taking phoned in take out orders for a restaurant.

That sounds pretty fun, honestly.

 

[Visualante]

That was one of the best podcasts I've ever heard.

 

[TheGreatDave]

AMAZING podcast. Great guests. Shawn, hearing you talk about story telling in games is music to my ears. Couldn't agree more.

 

[Htown]

I don't know that Shawn was completely right on the storytelling front, but he did make some damn good points. I think more games should tell stories in the way Half-Life 2 and, from what I hear, CoD4 do.

I've only played one Metal Gear game (Twin Snakes), and while it was really good, I do wish that so much of the game didn't consist of you sitting there doing nothing with a controller in your hands.

I'm curious, Shawn, as to what you think about developers who mix things up with QTE type cutscenes. You know, where things are mostly out of your hands, but if you execute the right moves at the right times, something cool happens, and if you don't something bad happens/you lose. I mean it's not JUST a movie, but it's not exactly in gameplay, either.

I think I'd like the QTE stuff more myself if it was multiple choice. Like if everything was still shot like a cutscene, but with branching paths through the scene instead of "Press up or you die." Maybe you could press left or right and the scene would change a bit.

 

[Vaxadrin]

I didn't realize my account was enabled, so I'm a little late to the in-game narrative discussion, but here's my take on it.

I love it when games do their narrative in game, but I feel a certain amount of control has to be taken away from the player in order to, as Amy put it, not "make the game look stupid." For example, now, every time I replay through one of the Half Life 2 games, I'm constantly building walls out of filing cabinets to block Alyx's progress, or stacking crates & computers on the couch I know Eli will sit on just to see how the game reacts. While this is endlessly entertaining in it's own right, I feel it completely breaks the immersion the developers intended.

Recent examples of games doing this right, in my opinion, are Call of Duty 4 and Bioshock. They have the cutscenes told in first person, and give/take control at the exact right times. Realizing you can swim in the water at the beginning of Bioshock is awesome. However, the scene with Andrew Ryan (no spoilers) would be ruined if the game allowed me to circle strafe while shooting the walls during his monologue. Similarly, the one major scene in CoD4 (you know which one) would be ruined if your character could still run at full speed and bunny hop around during what was supposed to be a dreary, oppressive scene.

Those devs know exactly when you should & shouldn't be able to control your character, without breaking the immersion at all. With games with such excellent atmosphere, voice acting, art, graphics, etc etc etc as the Half Life 2 games, it just kind of breaks all that when I launch Magnusson devices at Magnusson's face and he just keeps on talking.

 

[SonOfABeep]

Really great hearing Shawn and Shane have it out. I personally side with Shawn, but I see where Shane comes from. Shane just seems like the kid who actually believes MGS's cutscenes are more than silliness covered with military language.

Although I do have to disagree with shawn, because a good story will be good regardless. The real problem with games is that 9/10 games' stories are just rote, predictable, boring stuff. If people could get their writing and such up to par with non-interactive scenes, then maybe we can move to interactive stuff.

Overall though I'm not really convinced that developers and publishers are able or want to deliver good stories in games. I'm even less convinced that the average consumer is demanding it. It's a real shame, because the average gamestop jackass customer would rather be just shooting people.

 

[Vaxadrin]

Overall though I'm not really convinced that developers and publishers are able or want to deliver good stories in games. I'm even less convinced that the average consumer is demanding it. It's a real shame, because the average gamestop jackass customer would rather be just shooting people.

In defense of just shooting people, when I play something like Halo 3, I can't help but think "Wow, I wish they'd just have cut out most of this story and spent all that dev time on another level." given that the combat is infinitely more interesting than the story. There's alot of games with excellent storytelling, don't get me wrong, but there are just as many with excellent gameplay that have a useless story tacked-on to justify why you're doing those things where you're doing them. For every Bioshock, I'd love to have another Earth Defense Force with as high production values.

 

[SonOfABeep]

Yeah, I totally agree. Not with Halo, because I actually kinda like the story and wish there was more of it.. (sorry!) but a lot of games should just ditch the story and focus on making a fun game. I'm playing DMC4 right now and I have no idea what's going on in most of the story scenes, and they're so long. Thank god the fighting is really fun.

 

[TTG]

Just saw this article in another thread. Levine's thoughts:

"Levine thinks that you should build games that encourage the player to discover the narrative, rather than pushing it via cutscenes. Levine said, "What's the purpose of a cutscene? It's to push information at the player. It's the same as linear media -- it's not our advantage, it's not our strength." When it comes to optional story, "The answer is yeah, they may miss it. You have to accept they are going to miss maybe most of it. That's OK, because the people who engage and pull it toward them will be so passionate about it because they were involved in that decision."

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17531

 

[Oni Jazar]

I really enjoyed the discussion of narrative in gameplay. Personally I don't limit myself to the kinds of enjoyment a game can give. For instance, I played through and enjoyed the Harvey Birdman PSP/PS2/Wii game. In that "game" you pretty much watch clips and push a button here and there. Now I really don't care if that makes it less of a game, bottom line is that I enjoyed the time that I had and that's all that matters.

I love games like Battlefield where I can become my own action hero and I love Metal Gear where I can get some crazy post-modern storytelling. Both can be dismissed as GI-Joes in action but both are highly entertaining to me.

 

[nib95]

To me, these examples reflect a failure on the part of the game designers at the conceptual stage. They're not writing for the medium; they're grafting a story onto a game, or vice versa. That's why we get all of the awkward exposition. That why we see the incongruities even in Half-Life 2 or SotC. Hennig's HL example highlights a problem with Valve's execution, not with in-game storytelling itself. It's going to take awhile for that sort of storytelling to feel as natural as it should in games, but it's going to take even longer if developers spend all their time avoiding it by making prettier cutscenes. Those just address the symptoms, rather than the illness.

So then, the FFVII scene which I described, please do tell me how you'd have best done that scene in-game without losing the emotion and cinematic force it had as a cut scene.

 

[I AM JOHN!]

This is a shitty post; see below where I actually explain myself rather than sound like an idiot. :|

 

[FartOfWar]

http://gamevideos.com/video/id/17630

Yes

 

[traveler]

Holy shit, Shane is taking the piss out of Shawn, and I completely agree with him!

?

When was this?

 

[FartOfWar]

?

When was this?

I was about to ask the same thing.

 

[KolosLazar16]

http://gamevideos.com/video/id/17630

Yes

~When till you guys start recording? I can't wait.

 

[Visualante]

So then, the FFVII scene which I described, please do tell me how you'd have best done that scene in-game without losing the emotion and cinematic force it had as a cut scene.

I echo Amy's sentiments, we may never get there. I've thought long and hard about it- it might never be possible but there's no problem in trying. I'm indifferent to cut scenes in games like Final Fantasy where they act as a reward, but in general I'm starting to realise it can be done other ways.

And to quickly dismiss your point about Final Fantasy VII: What game? Do you mean if they had done it in one of the random battle events? Or on the world map? As the technology evolves it is possible to do things in engine, and makes things more seamless.

Lets say hypothetically they remake it completely reworking the scenario, a better way of doing it would be to let you see it through the eyes of Aeris herself, where you have control over her moving around doing a ritual. But then you look down upon yourself and a sword is sticking through you and your field of vision is broken, and then you look up at the little generic emo kid running towards you all angry like.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

Holy shit, Shane is taking the piss out of Shawn, and I completely agree with him!

Shane came across rather childish, snide remark followed by a snigger.

 

[kimchimonkey]

It's a tough design problem.
The problem with the whole interactive approach is that currently there really isn't a good way for users to interact with NPC's in a natural way. As much as I admire HL 2 and the fact that they do not use cutscenes, they almost break down in the same way. You are usually just listening to the NPC's talk during a segment. It is virtually like you are watching a cut scene with the only difference being that you can move around and move your camera. You still are not being to talk back in an natural way. This is where I believe AI has let us down. The solution to the problem seems like its going to be a Online Multiplayer game where you can interact with other people and develop your own personal story.

Great podcast though and I like the fact that yours finally has a better mix of opinions.

 

[KolosLazar16]

I was about to ask the same thing.

Oh, and thoughts on the Dishwasher? How badass is that shit.

 

[skip]

today's schedule:

1up yours -- robert bowling, infinity ward (four two zero)
taping 3pm

gfw radio -- chris taylor, gas powered & josh mosqueira, relic
taping 4pm

I have a feeling brian jarrard won't be able to make it to 1UPY due to scheduling conflict

 

[Visualante]

1up yours -- robert bowling, infinity ward (four two zero)
taping 3pm

Piracy talk please.

 

[traveler]

today's schedule:

1up yours -- robert bowling, infinity ward (four two zero)
taping 3pm

gfw radio -- chris taylor, gas powered & josh mosqueira, relic
taping 4pm

I have a feeling brian jarrard won't be able to make it to 1UPY due to scheduling conflict

Well, crud. Still, should be an interesting show. I suppose you guys will hit all the talking points from today's conf? (Also, any idea on when I can expect it up? I'd like to be here when it uploads so the OP is up to date)

 

[skip]

Well, crud. Still, should be an interesting show. I suppose you guys will hit all the talking points from today's conf? (Also, any idea on when I can expect it up? I'd like to be here when it uploads so the OP is up to date)

we'll go over the stuff briefly at the beginning, but since we're pressed for time today we'll save the deeper discussion on Gears/Fable/etc. for Friday's wrap-up.

I figure we'll have both shows up by 7pm tonight.

 

[FartOfWar]

Piracy talk please.

Josh and Chris are also good candidates when it comes to piracy talk. You'll see.

 

[KolosLazar16]

today's schedule:

1up yours -- robert bowling, infinity ward (four two zero)
taping 3pm

gfw radio -- chris taylor, gas powered & josh mosqueira, relic
taping 4pm

I have a feeling brian jarrard won't be able to make it to 1UPY due to scheduling conflict

=( @ sketch. Don't cut off 1upy if it's going well. <3

 

[skip]

=( @ sketch. Don't cut off 1upy if it's going well. <3

we gots too, GFW starts promptly at 4.

 

[KolosLazar16]

we gots too, GFW starts promptly at 4.

Gotcha. Can't wait -_-v

 

[dLMN8R]

Josh and Chris are also good candidates when it comes to piracy talk. You'll see.

Can you ask how they allow people with pirated copies of the game to play online when practically no game for the past decade has allowed that?

 

[stotch]

we'll go over the stuff briefly at the beginning, but since we're pressed for time today we'll save the deeper discussion on Gears/Fable/etc. for Friday's wrap-up.

I figure we'll have both shows up by 7pm tonight.

Did you guys find out if XNA marketplace games will be free or not? I think Dishwasher Samurai is actually an XBLA game after it won the XNA game competition, but will the other games be free?

 

[traveler]

we'll go over the stuff briefly at the beginning, but since we're pressed for time today we'll save the deeper discussion on Gears/Fable/etc. for Friday's wrap-up.

I figure we'll have both shows up by 7pm tonight.

Thanks for the info. (I assume this is PST?)

Edit: fart, any chance on getting any details about Relic's next project, be it a new IP, sequel, or expansion to CoH, or have you guys resolved not to ask about future projects like last night?

 

[I AM JOHN!]

?

When was this?

Okay, so I was being hyperbolic and simplistic (I was on my iPhone :\), but the gist of my point was that I'm more inclined to agree with Shane on this. Obviously, if you can do a scene in game and convey it well enough, it's going to be just as engaging, if not more so, than a cutscene ever can be (Half-Life 2, and Assassin's Creed to an extent, come to mind). The problem is, like Amy was saying, there's certain concessions you have to make in this that can be a huge detriment to the game; as much as I'm totally gay for Valve, I have no connection whatsoever to Gordon Freeman, and as a character, he's as forgettable to me as Master Chief, or GTA Guy, or any other faceless avatar in a game. Having a connection to Gordon's not the point in Half-Life, obviously, but as someone who cares about how characters are established, be they NPCs or the player character, I'd personally rather someone do a cutscene that takes me out of the action than just have me there in a scene, feeling disconnected in a completely different way. Then again, I think this all kinda taps into the big problem, being that most story writers and designers in the gaming industry are talentless hacks. :|

Sorry again about the shitty post earlier; we cool now?

 

[Gattsu25]

Downloading the ep now

 

[FartOfWar]

Just saw this article in another thread. Levine's thoughts:

"Levine thinks that you should build games that encourage the player to discover the narrative, rather than pushing it via cutscenes. Levine said, "What's the purpose of a cutscene? It's to push information at the player. It's the same as linear media -- it's not our advantage, it's not our strength." When it comes to optional story, "The answer is yeah, they may miss it. You have to accept they are going to miss maybe most of it. That's OK, because the people who engage and pull it toward them will be so passionate about it because they were involved in that decision."

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17531

Great story. More snippets:

""I'm not really a fan of game story." But he thinks that's normal. "The first big secret is, the bad news is for storytellers is that nobody cares about your stupid story... no matter how detailed or lovingly you craft it." Even worse? "Details seem like the hard work, the important part... they're not your friend. Details drag you down."

When trying to find the core of the story of BioShock during development, Levine revealed, "What we realized at some point [that the?] narrator is not a cutscene, it's not live digital characters, it's not lip-synching... it's the world. What is the thing we render best in video games? The world, all the benefits of graphics... this incredibly detailed world. What is your player honestly engaged in most of the time? Think about most games -- the warehouses, the sewers, the office buildings... think about the missed opportunities there, in the primary experience, to give the player narrative."

Levine thinks that non-interactive cutscenes are dead. "People ask me about Final Fantasy -- who can argue with that success? If you step back and look where we're going it's non-traditional narrative, I think." That's why the story in BioShock shyed away from cutscenes and veered toward the audio logs -- "Audio logs are an opt-in, opt-out for people."

"What is mise en scene? Literally, to present or make a scene. Film does this. How did BioShock use this? To tell a story without words." Rapture was designed to sell the story, and this was accomplished via mise en scene. When it came to characters, like the scientist Steinman, "Through his scrawlings and his rantings, and what he did to people [he was built up immensely, but] by the time you meet him he's just some AI running around with a machine gun. We've set him up so the player has invested emotionally."

In conclusion? "This is a new medium. The ability to put the story in the world and opt out. You have to respect and trust your audience. You have to trust mystery. And you have to empower the game... you give him that little bit of trust, he will give it back to you by engaging in your story, and engaging in your game world."

 

[Y2Kev]

I still don't really know if I consider Bioshock a great example of in-game storytelling. The most powerful scene in the game is one where you don't actually have control. It's like, "Yeah, we can build this great narrative and deliver it without ever taking control from you, but when we really need to hammer this point home, you don't have the decision to do anything."

In fact, I think a lot of the non-cutscene storytelling stuff breaks away at the end of the game because the game breaks its own rules-- Little Sisters come out of vents like toys on a factory line, becoming a Big Daddy doesn't really mean anything special, etc. It just seems to toss away a lot of all that it has made you learn about the world in order to progress the gameplay.

I suppose you could consider it a commentary on cutscenes themselves, but we're getting into, "Is No More Heroes a good parody?" type stuff.

 

[FartOfWar]

Thanks for the info. (I assume this is PST?)

Edit: fart, any chance on getting any details about Relic's next project, be it a new IP, sequel, or expansion to CoH, or have you guys resolved not to ask about future projects like last night?

We can ask (and even get off the record info at times) but that isn't the way the business works. Their publishers and PR teams control that info and parcel it out according to strict business and marketing schedules. Be happy these guys are allowed to talk to us (= you) off the script and about anything other than what they're supposed to be selling at the given moment.

 

[FartOfWar]

Okay, so I was being hyperbolic and simplistic (I was on my iPhone :\), but the gist of my point was that I'm more inclined to agree with Shane on this. Obviously, if you can do a scene in game and convey it well enough, it's going to be just as engaging, if not more so, than a cutscene ever can be (Half-Life 2, and Assassin's Creed to an extent, come to mind). The problem is, like Amy was saying, there's certain concessions you have to make in this that can be a huge detriment to the game; as much as I'm totally gay for Valve, I have no connection whatsoever to Gordon Freeman, and as a character, he's as forgettable to me as Master Chief, or GTA Guy, or any other faceless avatar in a game. Having a connection to Gordon's not the point in Half-Life, obviously, but as someone who cares about how characters are established, be they NPCs or the player character, I'd personally rather someone do a cutscene that takes me out of the action than just have me there in a scene, feeling disconnected in a completely different way. Then again, I think this all kinda taps into the big problem, being that most story writers and designers in the gaming industry are talentless hacks. :|

Sorry again about the shitty post earlier; we cool now?

Well your gut rumbling because you're predisposed to agree with someone's sentiment is hardly taking the piss out of anything. When your argument is the one above (I agree with Shane, I love watching MGS cutscenes and that means they're every bit as effective as any other conceivable strategy) there never will be any taking the piss out of anything. It's no different than me saying I don't like band X for these reasons and then you saying well yeah I love band X cos they feel soooo right. It's not a winnable debate in either direction (at least conducted as such).

And please no more reducing the argument to Half-Life vs all. Where is this notion of "there's HL and then there's gaming" even coming from?

 

[traveler]

We can ask (and even get off the record info at times) but that isn't the way the business works. Their publishers and PR teams control that info and parcel it out according to strict business and marketing schedules. Be happy these guys are allowed to talk to us (= you) off the script and about anything other than what they're supposed to be selling at the given moment.

Yeah, I know. I just wasn't sure if that type of talk was even the plan for this week. It seemed more like you guys just wanted to shoot the shit and discuss general industry issues last night, which turned out excellent.

 

[dfyb]

I just want to tell you (and remind Shane as well) that you're throwing the term postmodern at someone who did a grad program in humanities. This isn't necessarily a good thing. But it sure as hell means that postmodern isn't the magic word for me that it is for you. Maybe Glanton can jump in here for me as I have to go at the moment. : )

yeah, you definitely have better verbiage than me - an undergrad in electronic media art. no suprise there.

And I don't think every game needs to tell a story in the way that Half-Life does either. Not sure where this is coming from.

i was using half-life as an example because it uses no cutscenes, but i was unclear where you draw the line between "okay for games" and "not taking enough advantage of the medium". is third person valid? doesn't that take away from the immersion? i don't like drawing the line so thin. i'm more open to what a game can be.

i mean, games obviously aren't movies, but games are not totally unlike movies. both communicate to you visually and auditorally. the way i see it, games are an aggregate of art forms.

games bring together sculpture, film, music, story, and painting together, but gaming adds a unique level interactivity. cutscenes don't take full advantage of interactivity (although MGS cutscenes are interactive in that you can often control the camera), but i don't see that as a fault -- especially considering the way we currently interface with games.

audio is a key element to film, but just like film can cut the music and use the absence of audio to convey emotion/feeling during a key sequence, i think games are welcome to use an absence or reduction of interactivity. games don't need to be fully utilizing every aspect of the medium 100% of the time. i hate the idea of setting these false rules for an art medium. games are my favorite art medium because of how open ended they are.

i do hope games aspire to bring interactive storytelling to new heights and i love to support games that succeed. i just hate the idea of certain ideas being deemed "outdated." as a game maker, i think it's best to put everything on the table for consideration. this is a wonderful medium with unreal potential -- there is more than one direction to explore games as an art form.

 

[FartOfWar]

I still don't really know if I consider Bioshock a great example of in-game storytelling. The most powerful scene in the game is one where you don't actually have control. It's like, "Yeah, we can build this great narrative and deliver it without ever taking control from you, but when we really need to hammer this point home, you don't have the decision to do anything."

In fact, I think a lot of the non-cutscene storytelling stuff breaks away at the end of the game because the game breaks its own rules-- Little Sisters come out of vents like toys on a factory line, becoming a Big Daddy doesn't really mean anything special, etc. It just seems to toss away a lot of all that it has made you learn about the world in order to progress the gameplay.

I suppose you could consider it a commentary on cutscenes themselves, but we're getting into, "Is No More Heroes a good parody?" type stuff.

I hope you weren't one of the people throwing the word postmodern around as if its a guarantee of quality, as the irony is thick here. BioShock's twist is thoroughly postmodern, only you've missed it entirely (if I'm reading you right). And read this with a smiley. I'm not in a pissy mood at all. Just saying.

And I agree. Bioshock made plenty of mistakes, incredible game that is.

 

[FartOfWar]

Yeah, I know. I just wasn't sure if that type of talk was even the plan for this week. It seemed more like you guys just wanted to shoot the shit and discuss general industry issues last night, which turned out excellent.

We'd like both, but yeah when you don't hear us grilling these guys about their next secret projects, its just because things don't work that way.

 

[traveler]

I still don't really know if I consider Bioshock a great example of in-game storytelling. The most powerful scene in the game is one where you don't actually have control. It's like, "Yeah, we can build this great narrative and deliver it without ever taking control from you, but when we really need to hammer this point home, you don't have the decision to do anything."

In fact, I think a lot of the non-cutscene storytelling stuff breaks away at the end of the game because the game breaks its own rules-- Little Sisters come out of vents like toys on a factory line, becoming a Big Daddy doesn't really mean anything special, etc. It just seems to toss away a lot of all that it has made you learn about the world in order to progress the gameplay.

I suppose you could consider it a commentary on cutscenes themselves, but we're getting into, "Is No More Heroes a good parody?" type stuff.

But the very reason that is the case is because it is the exception. By giving the player the control throughout all of the game, they actually give the one time they do use a cutscene real meaning, something most games fail to accomplish. (It also fits in perfectly with the game's message.)

It's similar to the reason why MGS3's ending was so powerful- you were accustomed to watching the story, so the moment Kojima actually hands you the reins, you feel it and it means something to you. This is why I'm willing to give MGS a pass- yes, Kojima uses tons of cutscenes, but he always twists them- or what follows them- in such a way that it feels like he is employing, to some degree, the unique strengths of the medium.

 

[TheGreatDave]

For me it's really as simple as when I'm playing a game, I don't want to not be using the controller unless I'm seeing a high score table between levels. Excluding the very real restrictions the medium has in portraying story in an original way, I don't understand where the need for a strict narrative in games comes from. I'm all for setting a tone, giving place meaning, encouraging exploration. I like Portal, I like the way you find information in Bioshock, any game where I an rewarded for wanting to find out about the world. But there really is no part of me that wants to sit there and watch a game use polygons to act out a movie without coming close to true human emotion.

I decided I was going to play MGS3 about...a year or so ago. I watched the intro movie and realised that the only reason I wasn't skipping it was because I'm supposed to like it. It's supposed to be great story telling in video games. It reality, the only time I can enjoy MGS is when it's openly indulging in self parody. I'll never care more about something Snake says than the codec conversations he has in Smash Bros Brawl.

 

[Y2Kev]

I hope you weren't one of the people throwing the word postmodern around as if its a guarantee of quality, as the irony is thick here. BioShock's twist is thoroughly postmodern, only you've missed it entirely (if I'm reading you right). And read this with a smiley. I'm not in a pissy mood at all. Just saying.

And I agree. Bioshock made plenty of mistakes, incredible game that is.

I haven't defended MGS at all, so I definitely haven't thrown that word around.

So tell me what you think I should have gotten from the twist?