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Official Smashing Pumpkins thread
- Thread starter Diablos
- Start date
FrenchMovieTheme said:
I agree, I don't think Machina was so much trying to emulate the sound of the rock of its day, it was SP trying to sound like the SP that the public loved. Wasn't it kind of billed as a "comeback" album?
Also, SP has always been a product of whatever is going on in music at the time. The previous poster said that Adore was emulating the electronic boom. Similarly, Gish and SD are clearly influenced by shoegaze and its distinct production style. Mellon Collie is the typical post-success double concept album. I'm not sure what Billy dug in the 80s, but Flood had quite the resume, too.
FrenchMovieTheme said:
Haha, good dig at Radiohead, but Kid A's my favorite!
Also, I'm not comparing SP to nu-metal, I'm just saying that the "rock" that was popular back then was that kind of metal-ish stuff. Interviews with Billy from that time indicate that he was trying to get back to the "old SP sound" (as someone else said), which shows us two things.
One, that Billy doesn't like being unpopular. The fact that the fad-chasing Adore didn't do so well hurt him, as you can tell from interviews he gave where he basically cried out against bandwagon fans. And yes, Adore is a reaction to the "electronica is the new rock" movement of the time. The decision to go back to what he thought fans wanted shows his need for attention.
Reason Two, Billy is competitive. How could he not be, after seeing his band's career decline while Limp Bizkit became popular? The decision to release "Everlasting Gaze" as the first single attests to the fact that Billy wanted to "out-rock" everyone else. How can you not see "Drop C" as an attempt to out-heavy everyone, at least in the case of "Gaze"?
This is not meant to label Billy with the "control-freak" title that the media has given him, but to celebrate his imperfections. The thing I always liked about him was that he would constantly say something in interviews that critics took as arrogant or pissy, but he was just saying what was on his mind. Bands like Radiohead... I mean, who even cares what Thom Yorke likes to eat or how he celebrated his last birthday? Everything those guys say is carefully thought out ahead of time to grow their myth. Sorry, but there will not be another Beatles, so I enjoy the openness, and sometimes bitchiness, of someone like Corgan.
My point is, Billy was recently on some MTV show saying "Gerard is my son" or something to that effect, talking about the Chemical Romance singer. I am not in the mood for Billy to try and "out-feel" these new bands, and that is the only reason I have any anxiety about the new album.
kingofrod said:
Oh shit. In the new issue of Spin (I DID NOT BUY IT, IT WAS GIVEN TO ME), there was a big article on MCR and there was harping about Corgan in it. So basically, my guess of the SP lineup:
Billy
Jimmy
Courtney
Davey Havok
A keyboardist that used to be in The Cure for like a week
Feel it in your hearts! You know I speak the truth!
Just want to jump on the ranking bandwagon:
1. Siamese Dream
If Billy had died after making this album, he would've become Kurt Cobain instead of Kurt himself. As layered and haunting as the most epic works by arrangers who get far more credit (Brian Wilson, George Martin), except replace all the retarded timpanis and shit with singing e-bows, crunchy big muff guitars, sitars, and dreamy, Loveless-esque vocals. To acheive "spaciness" by simply making your distortion extra creamy was the smartest idea in modern music since Johnny Ramone turned his amp up to 11.
2. Pisces Iscariot
Revealing and uneven, like all b-sides collections. Billy once said that the b-sides almost capture the "real" band better than the albums. From the over-the-top bravado of Pissant and Hello Kitty Kat to the home-recorded Soothe and Plume, you come away with a real love for how personal they were and how they let their dorky midwestern selves hang out there.
3. The Aeroplane Flighs High
See Pisces Iscariot. It's hard not to play "make the perfect Mellon Collie" with many of the tracks here. "Subtract 'Take Me Down' -- add 'Medellia of the Grey Skies!'" While more hit-and-miss than Pisces, there was even more of the band's quirky personality to chew on, with their great cover of "Destination Unknown," the snarky "Pennies," and the document of Billy's overactive song-production gland, "Pastichio Medley."
4. Gish
The warbling tremolo, unabashed 60s-ness and spaced-out vocals give the whole album a detached, liquid feel. While somewhat overwrought, the simple gestures of "Crush," and "Suffer" contrast pretty interestingly to the grandiosity of "Window Paine" and "Siva." They had much to perfect, but they had a good ear. Jimmy's drumming on this record always slays me.
5. Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness
It had some concept, it featured some decently-executed new directions, and it had the most beautiful artwork they have ever featured on any album, but how Billy got stuck on the "double album" idea is a mystery to me. Phoned-in songs like "Beautiful" and "Tales of a Scorched Earth" pad out the running length and ultimately detract from the obviously stronger material. It remains essential for the half of it that actually works, but this was the beginning of a certain convergence of ego and artistic license that became a turnoff for me.
6. Adore
It has aged terribly and is the most musically akward album of the discography. You can almost hear Billy longing for Jimmy as he sings "Shame" to a dead-sounding TR-808. But putting the rock aside for a moment was a successful experiment for the band on some songs. They missed the mark on trying to fuse "electronic" elements into their music. They did succeed in extending their musical palette a bit, and the live shows from this era are amazing.
7. Machina II
After the terrible Batman song, the disappointing Adore and it's even-worse B-sides, and the lackluster Machina, I was only half-hearted in my interest in this album. But they had announced their impending breakup, so I dove in. I skimmed through much of it, but then, listening to "Innocence," I realized that the band still had a few good moments to dig in there. On the second spin, it became more like another B-side collection. Covers, home recordings, alternate versions. It was funky and interesting, and ultimately more honest than I had heard them be in a long while. It's not that hot, but it was a fitting farewell (at the time).
8. Machina / The Machines of God
God-awful production abound, from the plugged-directly-into-the-mixing-board guitars, to the Pantera kick drums, and jammed-up-your-ass Billy vocals. They rarely hit the mark on this album, and seemed more ridiculous than ever, wearing umbrella dresses and white makeup powder. The interesting sway to the chords in "Try, Try, Try" and the seminal (but retreading) "Stand Inside Your Love" is just about all I have to hold on to, on this one.
1. Siamese Dream
If Billy had died after making this album, he would've become Kurt Cobain instead of Kurt himself. As layered and haunting as the most epic works by arrangers who get far more credit (Brian Wilson, George Martin), except replace all the retarded timpanis and shit with singing e-bows, crunchy big muff guitars, sitars, and dreamy, Loveless-esque vocals. To acheive "spaciness" by simply making your distortion extra creamy was the smartest idea in modern music since Johnny Ramone turned his amp up to 11.
2. Pisces Iscariot
Revealing and uneven, like all b-sides collections. Billy once said that the b-sides almost capture the "real" band better than the albums. From the over-the-top bravado of Pissant and Hello Kitty Kat to the home-recorded Soothe and Plume, you come away with a real love for how personal they were and how they let their dorky midwestern selves hang out there.
3. The Aeroplane Flighs High
See Pisces Iscariot. It's hard not to play "make the perfect Mellon Collie" with many of the tracks here. "Subtract 'Take Me Down' -- add 'Medellia of the Grey Skies!'" While more hit-and-miss than Pisces, there was even more of the band's quirky personality to chew on, with their great cover of "Destination Unknown," the snarky "Pennies," and the document of Billy's overactive song-production gland, "Pastichio Medley."
4. Gish
The warbling tremolo, unabashed 60s-ness and spaced-out vocals give the whole album a detached, liquid feel. While somewhat overwrought, the simple gestures of "Crush," and "Suffer" contrast pretty interestingly to the grandiosity of "Window Paine" and "Siva." They had much to perfect, but they had a good ear. Jimmy's drumming on this record always slays me.
5. Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness
It had some concept, it featured some decently-executed new directions, and it had the most beautiful artwork they have ever featured on any album, but how Billy got stuck on the "double album" idea is a mystery to me. Phoned-in songs like "Beautiful" and "Tales of a Scorched Earth" pad out the running length and ultimately detract from the obviously stronger material. It remains essential for the half of it that actually works, but this was the beginning of a certain convergence of ego and artistic license that became a turnoff for me.
6. Adore
It has aged terribly and is the most musically akward album of the discography. You can almost hear Billy longing for Jimmy as he sings "Shame" to a dead-sounding TR-808. But putting the rock aside for a moment was a successful experiment for the band on some songs. They missed the mark on trying to fuse "electronic" elements into their music. They did succeed in extending their musical palette a bit, and the live shows from this era are amazing.
7. Machina II
After the terrible Batman song, the disappointing Adore and it's even-worse B-sides, and the lackluster Machina, I was only half-hearted in my interest in this album. But they had announced their impending breakup, so I dove in. I skimmed through much of it, but then, listening to "Innocence," I realized that the band still had a few good moments to dig in there. On the second spin, it became more like another B-side collection. Covers, home recordings, alternate versions. It was funky and interesting, and ultimately more honest than I had heard them be in a long while. It's not that hot, but it was a fitting farewell (at the time).
8. Machina / The Machines of God
God-awful production abound, from the plugged-directly-into-the-mixing-board guitars, to the Pantera kick drums, and jammed-up-your-ass Billy vocals. They rarely hit the mark on this album, and seemed more ridiculous than ever, wearing umbrella dresses and white makeup powder. The interesting sway to the chords in "Try, Try, Try" and the seminal (but retreading) "Stand Inside Your Love" is just about all I have to hold on to, on this one.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
only the fans DIDN'T want adore and he knew it. everyone wanted MCIS II. and how could he not make it? at one point the pumpkins were arguably the biggest band in the world, and it was because of MCIS. making an album like adore took some balls considering MCIS sold a gajillion records (no small accomplishment for a double album)
then why not do it in 1998 instead of adore? manson was crushing people with metal while billy was writing adore, bizkit was gaining popularity, rage against the machine, etc. it's not like billy corgan wrote, recorded and released adore in a 2 month time period. he was writing since 1996.
that is just billy being billy. he is a funny guy. you want him to be a total dramaqueen about the pumpkins reuniting? he is in touch with music today. i don't think he's going to try to pull out any of that bullshit my chemical romace/30 seconds to mars/etc stuff. pumpkins are who WE THOUGHT THEY WERE! the album and subsequent tour will rocket hardcore
also, if courtney love is the bassist or involved in the band in anyway i will shove MCIS case up my ass and crap it out of my mouth
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
the frogs!
top songs:
raped
children run away from the man with the candy
weird on the avenue
i only play for money
lord grunge
i'm evil, jack (lol wtf...)
dead pussy in the road (with mother's name on top)
dykes are we
here comes santa's pussy
I don't care if you disrespect me
homos
rock on Frogs! i don't know what happened to them though
FrenchMovieTheme said:
You're right, MCIS was a gamble as a double album, and I don't think fans were clambering for that either. But MCIS came out during a time where that kind of rock and roll was huge (ie, I can't believe I'm saying this... Bush, Seven Mary Three... alright, enough), so although it was a MAJOR accomplishment for a double album to sell that much, it wasn't exactly that far off the map as far as the musical climate of the era. Adore attempted to do the same thing by fitting in with the musical climate of 1996-98, which was a backlash against guitars and an embracing of computers. I can clearly recall all the music mags of the day talking about the lack of guitar innovation and the "pioneering" sound of Prodigy, Chemical Bros, Atari Teenage Riot, blah blah blah. It seems like every mid-90's band worth its salt was throwing in a drum loop or two to stay current. Therefore, making Adore did take some balls as it IS a pretty personal record and VERY quiet compared to the hits that made them famous; on the other hand, it fits right along with what everyone else was doing (ie, OK Computer.)
And guys, remember, I AM a Smashing Pumpkins fan, but I've grown past the point of blind loyalty to them. I WILL be standing outside CD Central in Lexington, KY at midnight when the new album comes out, and I WILL try and get the custom lithograph available to only the first 25 customers! But I also like to listen to great music, so we shall see...
FrenchMovieTheme said:the frogs!
top songs:
i'm evil, jack (lol wtf...)
rock on Frogs! i don't know what happened to them though
Oh yeah, plus "Evil Arnold with the ugly name."
"and your hands have been removed, your legs too
your body and soul have been sold
your f***in' house has been put up for auction"
That part gets me every time.
This is so true, and it kills the "SP loves to ride the wave" idea. What? The band KNEW a bunch of fans wanted another Mellon Collie. They didn't care, they wanted to branch out and do other things because they got tired of what they were doing.FrenchMovieTheme said:
If SP wanted to "ride the wave", they would've given into Virgin's demands of releasing a bunch of similar albums by a certain deadline. The Pumpkins actually went to court because they refused to fulfill their commercial obligations to the label. So we can just stop with this whole "riding the wave" idea. Adore and Machina are not anything remotely close to being that. Showing crappy bands how it's done is not the same thing, as Machina sounds nothing like the Limp Bizkit's and Staind's of the late 90's.
terrene said:
As I've said before - I think it has a good production, and has aged very well. I agree about the live show.
Adore adds even more depth to their discography. I easily accepted it and feel that it is a great album. Back when I tried to actually rank SP albums, Adore always came in at #2 for me.
I agree with you about Machina. Although it seems like I may like Machina II a bit more than you did. You seem to imply that from a creative standpoint, everything went downhill after TEITBITE? I disagree. Machina has some of the band's best songs -- The Everlasting Gaze, I Of the Mourning, Heavy Metal Machine, Blue Skies Bring Tears -- it's just the damn production (surprisingly, SIYL and Try are good the way they are on there). Thanks to the Internet, I have some Machina live shows that really saved the album for me, because I can just listen to the songs like that. Heavy Metal Machine from the United Center show is ****ing awesome (to say the least), for example. On the album, it's only so-so (at best).
Yeah, the band KNEW the fans wanted Mellon Collie. So how exactly does it kill the "ride the wave" idea? Because, as you probably know, when a band gets extremely huge like SP did, they almost always remember who they are and hardly ever try a different direction. Face it, Billy felt like he could do anything, and adding in little electronic farts was the way to stay current at the time. I think someone mentioned Marilyn Manson as an example of music staying heavy around this time. So how about "the Dope Show?" Or Mechanical Animals in general? Maybe it still had guitars on it, but the bleeps and bloops are there, and that is the point I have been trying to make here fellas. Every early-to-mid nineties band was clambering to stay afloat, and it's not like I'm mad at any of them for doing it. With Mtv playing three videos a day, why wouldn't you try to make your albums fit in with the newer generations? Now we see that this kind of thinking was misguided, as fans did want MCIS II, but SP assumed that what they wanted was the evolutionary Pumpkins, molded for the current times.Diablos said:
As for Machina, yes, Billy was angry with the fans for not following SP through their quiet phase. I think this is the reason "Gaze" was the 1st single from Machina, as an effort to win back his old fans and convert fans of crappy bands like Limp Bizkit. We KNOW Billy Corgan is a regular person who is jealous and childish at times, and this was his inner teenager taking back the fans he thought were his from Korn and all that stuff.
Yet again, I AM A FAN. However, it is ridiculous to think Billy was some kind of musical prophet who stood atop the rock and roll heap while others followed the leader. We're SP fans, so I'm assuming we're all in our twenties or so, right? Well, there's no reason to hold up an idol anymore; we should be past that. Look, I love the Beatles WAY more than SP, but that doesn't mean I DON'T think John Lennon was an asshole to Julian. Everyone has flaws and everyone falls victim to peer pressure, including people like Billy Corgan.
P.S. I thought the Pumpkins broke with Virgin because they wouldn't let SP release as many albums as they want (meaning, Billy had more material he wanted to get out there.) Maybe I'm wrong, but I used to keep up with stuff.
tsp_gatmog
Member
apparently some tracks have leaked.........:x
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
what
tsp_gatmog
Member
www.smashing-pumpkins.co.uk
apparently some guy has been leaking what is either never before heard demos, or new tracks. or something, ****, i dunno, im tired.
edit: ok, i have DLed one, and its just an apparent alt. mix of because you are..lame.
apparently some guy has been leaking what is either never before heard demos, or new tracks. or something, ****, i dunno, im tired.
edit: ok, i have DLed one, and its just an apparent alt. mix of because you are..lame.
He Wants Chalupas
Banned
ET (10:13:12 PM): smashing pumpkins fans are such assholes
ET (10:13:17 PM): they take after billy a little too much
mc (10:13:20 PM): smashing pumpkins have never made good music
ET (10:13:17 PM): they take after billy a little too much
mc (10:13:20 PM): smashing pumpkins have never made good music
BigJonsson
Member
Virgin Festival in Toronto on September 9th = SMASHING PUMPKINS!
Anyone know when the album or a single or a new track will be out?!?
Anyone know when the album or a single or a new track will be out?!?
distantmantra
Member
BigJonsson said:
Didn't they announce a release date of July 7th? Or did that turn out to be BS?
CrazyKoopa19
Banned
Dary is unconfirmed, so there is still a slight chance she might in? What about Iha?
I thought they gave the band personality. I would be a bit dissapointed if they didn't make the cut but not suprised.
I thought they gave the band personality. I would be a bit dissapointed if they didn't make the cut but not suprised.
While there's some dead time... check out this great cover of Crush:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBMI1Od35jQ
Apparently it has been around for a while, but I've never seen it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBMI1Od35jQ
Apparently it has been around for a while, but I've never seen it.
PotatoeMasher
Member
I HATE Joao Miguel. He's been around for so long, and he just whines to sound as much like Billy as possible. I'll never forget the "leaked demo" of Identify (from Stigmata) with Natalie Imbruglia and "Billy" singing. It was pathetic.
He just takes old songs and tries to rerecord them as close to the original as possible. Good to see he hasn't changed after all these years.
He just takes old songs and tries to rerecord them as close to the original as possible. Good to see he hasn't changed after all these years.
It sounds like an industrial version of Crush. It's not as good as the original, but I think it was still quite an effort. I don't know anything about this guy though.
Anyway, add another festival to the list:
There are gonna be so many bootlegs in circulation by the end of the year :lol
Anyway, add another festival to the list:
There are gonna be so many bootlegs in circulation by the end of the year :lol
PotatoeMasher
Member
I can't wait to hear the new songs... my extremely low expectations are ripe to be surprised.
tsp_gatmog
Member
they are playing with a lot of shitty, shitty bands
From the myspace:
Weird. It was previously reported that the Toronto show would be SP's *only* show in North America this year.
Also... there's a "banter" clip on the band's myspace that is from the United Center show. It's mostly James Iha talking about the end of the band and putting up with each other's crap. I wonder if this means he's back in...? Why else would that be put up?
Weird. It was previously reported that the Toronto show would be SP's *only* show in North America this year.
Also... there's a "banter" clip on the band's myspace that is from the United Center show. It's mostly James Iha talking about the end of the band and putting up with each other's crap. I wonder if this means he's back in...? Why else would that be put up?
tsp_gatmog
Member
wtf? only one show in north america?
I saw that whole 7.07.07 bit two days ago on some TV show and I was all, "I wonder if Diablos know about this." And if you didn't, I would have LOLed for knowing something about the Pumpkins that you didn't. But I'm sure you did.
Well, I'm not going to read this thread to find out, but I'm sure you did.
P.S. Did you?
Well, I'm not going to read this thread to find out, but I'm sure you did.
P.S. Did you?
I've known about 7/7/07 since the news first broke quite some time ago, but I did NOT know it's going to also come out at 7:07.Nick said:
tsp gatmog: Well, now there's two shows in North America. Both are the Virgin Festival. That's pretty funny since SP told Virgin to **** off and went with Reprise, lol.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
someone i know has a friend who has a friend who works in the music studio where they're mixing the album and says it's "pretty bad" in a bad way.
someone always has a friend of a friend of a cousin of a brothers moms sisters uncle!
someone always has a friend of a friend of a cousin of a brothers moms sisters uncle!
distantmantra
Member
Diablos said:
Virgin Records is not affiliated with the rest of Virgin Worldwide. Branson sold it off a long time ago.
siamesedreamer
Banned
FWIW, back in 95 for the Mellon Collie record release, I was the first person in the midnight Buckhead Tower Records line. They told me I was "the first" to buy the record. I know that doesn't mean anything. But, it was cool (and I was probably truly one of the first east coasters to buy the record). 99X played the whole Chicago live concert on the way down to Buckhead. I was with my best friend (who I don't talk to anymore and is a self-made millionaire). Cool, cool night......
BigJonsson
Member
I cant wait for September 9th
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
damn old man corgan. he probably had a 4-some with those ladies though, but had to keep his shirt on since he is embarrassed of his birthmarks
He's really starting to look older, heh.
edit: Linda Strawberry might be in the band, now. Some guy is posting about it on Netphoria, plus, she said this on her personal mysapce:
Either she's in the band or James is (since there was a clip of him on the band's myspace which is pretty weird).
If you don't know who Linda Strawberry is: http://www.myspace.com/strawberry
Check out "Scarletta", awesome song, not to mention her voice is awesome.