I guess "EU wants 100bn Brexit bill" sells better than "EU asks for xx but is willing to negotiate"
Yes. According to the article after these loans are repaid the actual bill would be between 65-75bln
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The UK votes to leave the European Union |OUT2| Mayday, Mayday, I've lost an ARM
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¯\_(ツ
_/¯ why should the EU care what some papers in the UK are writing? The UK WANTS and NEEDS a good deal.
A UK-EU trade deal is just another deal to be made in the next 1 or 2 decades for the EU like all the deals that were made in the last 2 decades. And all the dozen deals that are currently in the pipeline.
Where does this delusional self importance from the UK come from? The EU doesnt care what some nutjob papers are writing. Or do you think they lose sleep over what nutjob papers in Turkey, Russia, Marocco, USA, Japan, China, Egypt, etc. etc. write?
The only thing is: The UK papers already were dissing the EU while in the Union itself, so what does it change?
May is calling a GE not because it would give her a better negotiation position, but because she needs argument, that the PEOPLE wanted the next 30 lost years. The people know what voting May brings. So when the country tanks she can shrug and say it was the will of the people and not from an unelected PM.
PdotMichael
Banned
Well, destabilising the EU was one of the main goals of the Brexit crowd.
Lol. Please tell me you don't actually believe that whole audit BS the papers here spew?
Does Davis even care what May says?
Theresa May says the European Commission has hardened its negotiating stance "to affect the result of the general election"
Video: https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/859783194790330368
Video: https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/859783194790330368
PJV3
Member
I expect her to start wearing a tin foil hat by June.
From the guardian :
Strong and Stable robot said:
"Britain's negotiating position in Europe has been misrepresented in the continental press."
Amazing.
lolololololol
DarthMasta
Member
Understand, as far as "conventional" EU politicians go, the ideal would be for the UK to sink under the waves as soon as Brexit finishes. Nothing personal, but that is what you've voted for, for the UK misfortune to be mainstream EU politicians gain.
A living example of just what it means to leave the EU.
They probably won't push for it, because "sink the UK" is actually hard to do, and there are negatives to the EU from it, but for the politicians facing challenges from "Brexit" opponents, a live example would do swell...
I'm not optimistic at all, I expect no deal and both sides getting what they truly want, a scapegoat on the other side for why things aren't doing as well as they should.
Still, your newspapers have been blaming the EU for everything for who knows how long now, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, as the English say, yes?
A living example of just what it means to leave the EU.
They probably won't push for it, because "sink the UK" is actually hard to do, and there are negatives to the EU from it, but for the politicians facing challenges from "Brexit" opponents, a live example would do swell...
I'm not optimistic at all, I expect no deal and both sides getting what they truly want, a scapegoat on the other side for why things aren't doing as well as they should.
Still, your newspapers have been blaming the EU for everything for who knows how long now, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, as the English say, yes?
To achieve what exactly? I do not think that many in Europe actually care about your general election. There is no "good" option for EU, UK is leaving whatever the election results are. We just want someone sensible at the negotiation table, and May is probably as good as it gets nowadays in Britain. The election was your idea, May, noone in Europe ever called for one.
A strong and stable mess.
PJV3
Member
I think she will crack under the pressure, strong and stable people don't need to keep saying it, people can see it.
Martin Schulz would utterly destroy this narrative. It's borderline insane.
MrMysterio
Member
Haha, oh, hey... uhm SADFACE
Send him to Britain as long as FoM is there. He won't win against mutti anyway
Junckers chief of staff just now:
https://twitter.com/duncanrobinson/status/859805156585730048
Muffin1611
Banned
Never lose hope in the Schulzzug!
Said this on the other thread but it should be posted here really:
The Tory's have already stealth brought in a new rule for the long term sick. If you need a sick note after being signed off for more then 6 months. Doctors will have to question you each month, for you to get another note. Even if you have therapy notes sent to them.
I had it today were I had to tell the doc everything I have been through with my abuse etc. Even though they get my notes every week. So not a good day for me today.
The Tory's have already stealth brought in a new rule for the long term sick. If you need a sick note after being signed off for more then 6 months. Doctors will have to question you each month, for you to get another note. Even if you have therapy notes sent to them.
I had it today were I had to tell the doc everything I have been through with my abuse etc. Even though they get my notes every week. So not a good day for me today.
FlammableD
Banned
shit, sorry about that Beefy
Thanks man
Sephiroth503
Member
"We want a deep and special partnership with the European Union"
Eh...you had one????
Eh...you had one????
Linkstrikesback
Member
Tory bastards.Can't ever leave people alone.
Every month? I'm really sorry to hear that
Even discounting feelings and looking at cold hard facts, surely forcing everyone on long-term sick to make a monthly doctors appointment costs the NHS more money than we can possibly save catching a statistically insignificant number of people playing the system
Yeah the British public wants that again, just without contributing anything back in any way
Yep every month, I am still waiting to get on ESA properly. Until I have my ESA medical I have to send in medical notes and now have to do the month sit down crap, even though I am having therapy. I have been waiting 6 months to get on ESA properly, but have been told it could take a year + to have a medical.
RedSparrows
Member
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/03/the-six-brexit-traps-that-will-defeat-theresa-may
Interesting piece from Varoufakis.
As a Remainer, I have always had doubts about the EU, and this certainly doesn't help those (iirc Varoufakis led/leads a group to campaign for EU reform, rather than demolition). But it also highlights how the Leave position is almost in utter poverty.
Interesting piece from Varoufakis.
As a Remainer, I have always had doubts about the EU, and this certainly doesn't help those (iirc Varoufakis led/leads a group to campaign for EU reform, rather than demolition). But it also highlights how the Leave position is almost in utter poverty.
I'm not sure anyone should listen to a word Varoufakis says after the disaster he got greece into.
Not only did he get a worse deal than originally offered by the EU he also implemented capital controls and fucked the economy even harder with his "game theory" bs.
Thanks that's a really interesting read and you can see a lot of the tactics already in action. It's a shame that the Leave argument about the EU being a bureaucratic nightmare couldn't be more successfully demonstrated by the remain camp to mean that a leave vote was such a shitty idea.
Xando said:
His suggested solution here of asking for a Norway deal and punting the real negotiations 7 years down the road definitely wouldn't work but I'd say his description of the way the EU machine was designed to work against him, and the way it will work against the UK as well, rings very true.
Theonik
Member
Like or dislike him, what he said in this piece rings absolutely true and is how May will be played here. Ultimately in the way that Greece could not really accept a deal that doesn't offer debt relief, May needs a deal that addresses trade or at least provides a schedule for trade. The EU's approach is to use the fact they control the clock to push their agenda first saying they will discuss your items but only after they get their way first knowing full well that they can delay you into accepting, and if not they can just get more time.
This ultimately boils down to leverage too. The sense that Greece's case is incomparable of course is that the UK is in this dire situation entirely of their own making, whereas Greece was thrust into a situation that they had no recourse but to follow that path.
It would never be agreeable yes. Whole situation is pretty dumb.
His whole argument is that the EU is a undemocratic institution which is BS.
Juncker is elected, the council is full of democratic elected heads of states even barnier was appointed by a democratic parliament.
His whole argument falls apart because he was demanding stuff that was available for the other member states (similiar to may demanding things that aren't on the table).
Varoufakis (and May) don't seem to realize that the EU is not one brain but 27 different brains and each have different interests at heart.
It's ironic that he complains that the EU was working against him when even germany was willing to compromise(due to heavy lobbying by france) on a Greece deal which fell apart because varoufakis thought he is the king of the castle and the member states have to follow his lead.
This guy is more concerned with selling books rather than a realistic compromise.
At best he's a dreamer, at worst he's a idiot.
The UK should look at Greece as a example of how not to do negotiations because their demands were so unrealistic for other member states that they decided it was either take the deal that is available or jump off a cliff.
Well that is how negotiation works. You try to get the best deal possible for your people. If you have leverage you'll have better chances of getting a good outcome. If not you either accept what is available or you jump off a cliff.
What he (and May) don't realize is that no matter how big your mandate is it doesn't influence the decision of the other countries.
I don't doubt that something as large and complex as the EU is a beaurocratic mess, but when he tries to claim its that way by design it sounds more like a conspiracy theory to me. Or rather, a misunderstanding of how important he is (or isn't) to the EU.
The rest of the accusations don't seem as sketchy as he tries to make them. The EU tried to influence Tsipras to get around this guy... Yeah? That's politics? That's on Tsipras to be not so easily influenced.
etc. Maybe I'm excusing too much. Would be interested in a neutral parties opinion on the plan he submitted to the EU and was supposedly ignored, but I don't suppose such a thing is available?
Oh and his argument about the EU being anti-democratic... He explains why he's wrong, then dismisses the explanation because ?
DarthMasta
Member
I don't disagree that the EU is a bit of a "not quite good enough solutions" engine, that a "proper" solution for the Greek (and others) crisis could be achieved if only everyone worked towards the optimum solution.
OTOH, has he ever met humans? And if so, when exactly did they ever work towards the optimum solution, and not the best solution for them?
OTOH, has he ever met humans? And if so, when exactly did they ever work towards the optimum solution, and not the best solution for them?
Halph n Halph
Member
Great article. It certainly didn't help to change my mind that we will just leave and suffer an economic dip for a couple of decades.
Germany and a few of the other stronger economies will be largely unaffected ,however I wonder how some of the more troubled countries will weather a storm or if Germany will help them if needed.
No doubt people will tell me that all EU members will be fine and weak little Britain is too insignificant to affect the Portuguese economy or trade barriers will be good for Spanish and Irish agriculture etc.
We often get the " but German cars " thrown about but that is a behemoth of an industry world wide and quite frankly a bullshit leave argument.
I have no idea what's going to happen , I'm not really sure many people really do.
Varoufakis and Tsipras managed to fuck up an already complicated situation and negotiation. They threaten with a revolution and ended up with a worse deal than the one that was offered initially to them (which funnily enough will also be the situation with UK). Any advice that Varoufakis gives in terms of negotiations should be thrown directly in the bin.
Frankfurter
Member
I think the biggest problem with Varoufakis is that he doesn't understand politics. He is probably a very good, maybe even brilliant, economist, but he doesn't understand the reality of politics. He thinks that all he has to do is showing data and then "common sense" (whatever he considers common sense from his POV) will prevail. It doesn't work that way, atleast not always. He ignored the personal level, too. He pissed off so many people in the EU (very similar to May right now) and that made it very difficult for those people to accept a reasonable deal because they'd be seen as weak in their respective country of origin.
I do think he could have made a difference (for the good that is), but his approach should have been way more cautious for that to happen. I still remember how at the beginning he (and Tsipras? Can't quite remember) tried to form some kind coalition with the other Southern countries, which didn't work out at all and just made the situation much worse for Greece.
I do think he could have made a difference (for the good that is), but his approach should have been way more cautious for that to happen. I still remember how at the beginning he (and Tsipras? Can't quite remember) tried to form some kind coalition with the other Southern countries, which didn't work out at all and just made the situation much worse for Greece.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I don't have a strong opinion about Varoufakis, but people should keep in mind that individual member states actively campaigned to fuck him and Greece over in order to stop an uprising of similar parties across Europe.
Spain's Rajoy in particular lobbied like a motherfucker for the harshest possible deal in order to hit Podemos by proxy since it's ideologically close to Syriza and it was a seen as a menace to a political duopoly extremely similar to that of Greece. It didn't work out, but it inflicted a lot of needless pain on Greece.
A number of actors piled on Greece in bad faith during the worst part of the crisis in order to push their own interests. The EU was in disarray at that time. Lots of member states were scared of a possible contagion. It was a trying time for the Union and Greece never had a chance.
Spain's Rajoy in particular lobbied like a motherfucker for the harshest possible deal in order to hit Podemos by proxy since it's ideologically close to Syriza and it was a seen as a menace to a political duopoly extremely similar to that of Greece. It didn't work out, but it inflicted a lot of needless pain on Greece.
A number of actors piled on Greece in bad faith during the worst part of the crisis in order to push their own interests. The EU was in disarray at that time. Lots of member states were scared of a possible contagion. It was a trying time for the Union and Greece never had a chance.
Theonik
Member
I don't disagree with anything in your post. What you seem to be ignoring however is that this is not a situation that is in any way workable. In the first place this should be a negotiation between two parties, in Greece's case there should be a common interest for the union itself. To allow that to turn into the political pettiness of 27 different administrations is exactly why Greece's situation is completely unsolvable. Negotiations only work when both parties are acting in good faith.
Maybe he thinks game theory models how actual human beings work all of the time.
Also, I don't get his premise in that article. Of course a stronger mandate doesn't really matter that much for May -- because it's still hers against the 27 others. And Varoufakis does nothing to argue against that point. He just claims that democratic mandates in general don't count in the EU, but doesn't deliver any bit of evidence.
Yeah it is kinda hard to get his point where in the first paragraph he points to that problem ("You have a mandate? I do too!!") and then just goes to say that it is undemocratic.Why should your mandate be given more importance than the other parties mandates in that instance?
It is true that some of the problems are from local parties trying to force better situations for them back home (like our president Rajoy) but that is how democracy in this union work, you have to deal with the different countries as they can veto.
Another issue with Varoufakis (which seems to happen also with May) is that he doesn't understand that if you publicly attack the people with whom you negotiate you can't really expect good will from them afterwards. And if you don't have good will and if you don't have leverage you have nothing in a negotiation. But hey, you gained a couple of popularity points.
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