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The UK votes to leave the European Union |OUT2| Mayday, Mayday, I've lost an ARM

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Xando

Member
I don't disagree with anything in your post. What you seem to be ignoring however is that this is not a situation that is in any way workable. In the first place this should be a negotiation between two parties, in Greece's case there should be a common interest for the union itself. To allow that to turn into the political pettiness of 27 different administrations is exactly why Greece's situation is completely unsolvable. Negotiations only work when both parties are acting in good faith.

It might have been political pettyness for some countries (Like Funky described above) but we cannot forget that the deal which was on the table when Tsipras became PM was proposed in good faith (Which for example in Germanys case had cost Merkel a lot of political power because the public wasn't exactly in favor of another greek package)but the greek goverment decided it wants something that was simply unachiveable (Kinda like May but who knows what her actual goal is in negotiations) if you consider these heads of states also have to get this through their parliaments (IIRC German public opinion was something like 75% kick greece out of the EZ during the high times).

I think May is falling into the exact same trap and is only playing for the home crowd while EU public opinion is turning on her (I think german numbers are something like 32% give them no concessions and 49% only very limited concessions) and at some point these heads of states can't ignore this anymore because unlike what Varoufakis claims they're still elected.

If you want to get maybe not so popular things done in the EU (And i think a lot of countries miss this point) you have to lobby for it all over the EU and not only play for the home crowd.
 

tuxfool

Banned
If you want to get maybe not so popular things done in the EU (And i think a lot of countries miss this point) you have to lobby for it all over the EU and not only play for the home crowd.

This was seemingly what May was originally trying to do by courting individual member states. She royally fucked that up by favouring the entitled (read deluded) rhetoric favoured in the UK.
 

PJV3

Member
This was seemingly what May was originally trying to do by courting individual member states. She royally fucked that up by favouring the entitled (read deluded) rhetoric favoured in the UK.

Why give Boris a job then?
She can't be that bloody stupid.
 

tuxfool

Banned
Why give Boris a job then?
She can't be that bloody stupid.

You got me there.

I don't think that courting heads of state was going to be in his purview, she was attempting to do that herself. But given the utter chaos of when she came to be PM I don't think that there was much of a strategy there, they were just winging it.
 

Uzzy

Member
Why give Boris a job then?
She can't be that bloody stupid.

Foreign ministers haven't been in charge of foreign affairs for a while now. May will take charge of that on her own. Boris as FM just means he'll spend time abroad, out of the limelight.
 

PJV3

Member
You got me there.

I don't think that courting heads of state was going to be in his purview, she was attempting to do that herself. But given the utter chaos of when she came to be PM I don't think that there was much of a strategy there, they were just winging it.

Maybe, she should have banned him from setting foot on the continent at least, his name was mud in Brussels before brexit.

Foreign ministers haven't been in charge of foreign affairs for a while now. May will take charge of that on her own. Boris as FM just means he'll spend time abroad, out of the limelight.

He's been souring relations before May gets to set out what she wants, she should have given him a domestic role like toilet cleaning.
 

Beefy

Member
@sarahludford
EU Court finds UK guilty of breaching EU clean water law by allowing discharges of raw sewage in various locations. Horrid ECJ protecting us
 

PJV3

Member
@sarahludford
EU Court finds UK guilty of breaching EU clean water law by allowing discharges of raw sewage in various locations. Horrid ECJ protecting us

And the air as well apparently soon? is there nothing to stop the sick meddling euro hippies.
 

Faddy

Banned
I don't disagree that the EU is a bit of a "not quite good enough solutions" engine, that a "proper" solution for the Greek (and others) crisis could be achieved if only everyone worked towards the optimum solution.

OTOH, has he ever met humans? And if so, when exactly did they ever work towards the optimum solution, and not the best solution for them?

*Anakin and Padme talk about the EU

The result

3t9xuMD.png
 
@sarahludford
EU Court finds UK guilty of breaching EU clean water law by allowing discharges of raw sewage in various locations. Horrid ECJ protecting us

Just sabotage by EU-centric shadow-lurkers attempting to undermine STRONG AND STABLE LEADERSHIP. Bloody faceless Brussels bureaucrats thinking they can tell us to keep faeces out of our tap water, who do they think they are?
 

8bit

Knows the Score
I see there's a piece in the Daily Mail claiming eyewitness accounts of Juncker drunk and bouncing off furniture at a meeting.
 

slider

Member
Just sabotage by EU-centric shadow-lurkers attempting to undermine STRONG AND STABLE LEADERSHIP. Bloody faceless Brussels bureaucrats thinking they can tell us to keep faeces out of our tap water, who do they think they are?

Did you know that they're not even elected??
 

Theonik

Member
It might have been political pettyness for some countries (Like Funky described above) but we cannot forget that the deal which was on the table when Tsipras became PM was proposed in good faith (Which for example in Germanys case had cost Merkel a lot of political power because the public wasn't exactly in favor of another greek package)but the greek goverment decided it wants something that was simply unachiveable (Kinda like May but who knows what her actual goal is in negotiations) if you consider these heads of states also have to get this through their parliaments (IIRC German public opinion was something like 75% kick greece out of the EZ during the high times).

I think May is falling into the exact same trap and is only playing for the home crowd while EU public opinion is turning on her (I think german numbers are something like 32% give them no concessions and 49% only very limited concessions) and at some point these heads of states can't ignore this anymore because unlike what Varoufakis claims they're still elected.

If you want to get maybe not so popular things done in the EU (And i think a lot of countries miss this point) you have to lobby for it all over the EU and not only play for the home crowd.
Eh what they put on the table etwas the extension of the previous program not a new program and refused to negotiate any aspect of it. If you think this is conductive to finding mutually beneficial solutions I'm not sure what to say to you. The end result was lose-lose and the EU has itself largely to blame for that. What we should learn from this should be that the EU is due serious reform. If it does not it will never really amount to anything.
 

Xando

Member
Eh what they put on the table etwas the extension of the previous program not a new program and refused to negotiate any aspect of it. If you think this is conductive to finding mutually beneficial solutions I'm not sure what to say to you. The end result was lose-lose and the EU has itself largely to blame for that. What we should learn from this should be that the EU is due serious reform. If it does not it will never really amount to anything.
Not gonna argue the EU doesn't need reforms but the offer Greece got was what was possible at the time(Despite what you read on Gaf it was pretty much 27 vs 1 and not only Germany). It's one thing to want things and another of what is realpolitik.
 

TimmmV

Member
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39816044

European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker has told a conference on the EU that "English is losing importance in Europe".
He was speaking in Florence, Italy, amid tensions with the UK government over looming Brexit negotiations.
He said his speech was in French "because slowly but surely English is losing importance in Europe and also because France has an election".

On the one hand this is quite sad, because its showing how big the gap between UK and rest of the EU is getting

But on the other, I'm imagining a leave voter frothing at the mouth in anger at this and finding it quite funny
 

Maledict

Member
Meh, that seems a bit dumb. Imposing French as a second language has always been a ridiculous sop anyways, and the UK leaving isn't going to mean Poland and Sweden suddenly start learning French. English didn't become the default language because the UK was in the EU.
 

PJV3

Member
Meh, that seems a bit dumb. Imposing French as a second language has always been a ridiculous sop anyways, and the UK leaving isn't going to mean Poland and Sweden suddenly start learning French. English didn't become the default language because the UK was in the EU.


But official languages are based on the member states, they will cobble something together I'm sure after we go.

International treaty language or something.
 

kmag

Member
Meh, that seems a bit dumb. Imposing French as a second language has always been a ridiculous sop anyways, and the UK leaving isn't going to mean Poland and Sweden suddenly start learning French. English didn't become the default language because the UK was in the EU.

The problem is English will no longer actually be one of the 27 languages (Ireland nominated Gaelic)
 

PJV3

Member
The problem is English will no longer actually be one of the 27 languages (Ireland nominated Gaelic)

They don't have to learn English either, official languages get the teams of translators etc. Junker is on a bit of a wind up but he has a kernel of truth in it.
 

TimmmV

Member
Meh, that seems a bit dumb. Imposing French as a second language has always been a ridiculous sop anyways, and the UK leaving isn't going to mean Poland and Sweden suddenly start learning French. English didn't become the default language because the UK was in the EU.

It does seem a bit petty yes (but still funny), I've always found the way France tries to preserve French culture and language a bit weird too - but maybe that's coming from an arrogant English perspective or something.

IIRC, English only became the dominant language of the EU after the Scandinavian countries joined in the early 90's though? Before then, the working language was French. Changing back would be a big change, but its not like its not been done before, or French hasn't previously been dominant
 

Maledict

Member
It's not going to revert back to French. When the EU was set up French *was* the international language of diplomacy, so it was no surprise the EU adopted it. But over time it's been completely eclipsed by English. Countries aren't going to want to shift to French when none of their citizens speak it, they don't teach it in schools and it's not spoken in the biggest international markets.

The EU uses English because everyone else does, and that's nothing to do with the current UK - it's a combination of a remnant of empire plus the USAs astonishing economic and cultural dominance.

Agree completely on the treaty thing though - maybe they will let Ireland choose two languages?
 

CTLance

Member
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39816044

On the one hand this is quite sad, because its showing how big the gap between UK and rest of the EU is getting

But on the other, I'm imagining a leave voter frothing at the mouth in anger at this and finding it quite funny
Next up: Juncker openly mulling using Spanish instead of English to reflect the changed demographic of the rEU. Not gonna happen, but imagine the fireworks! Gibraltar, the old Brits and the English language. When will the Spanish be content?! >:-O

Obviously, this is just posturing. Still, it's cute in a way. Plus, I love how he can just casually phone Merkel and talk in her mother tongue with her, after having dinner with May while conversing with her in English - then turn around and give a speech in French.

Makes me wanna watch "A fish called Wanda" again. Time to dig through my old DVDs tonight!
 

Green Yoshi

Member
I like French and all, but no.

Almost nobody in Germany understands French good enough to follow a TV debate. English is mandatory since 5th grade but there is no obligation to learn France at school. You can also choose Latin or Spanish as second foreign language.
 

oti

Banned
Almost nobody in Germany understands French good enough to follow a TV debate. English is mandatory since 5th grade but there is no obligation to learn France at school. You can also choose Latin or Spanish as second foreign language.

Tell me about it. When I went through Realschule in the end we were like 5 people in French class while everyone else had dropped it at that point. But boy am I glad I continued learning it.

At Uni I came to the realisation that almost nobody learned it as long as I did.

Englisch ist ein Muss, Französisch ist ein Plus.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
The English language will be back on the EU table once Scotland will join. We just need a bit of practice using the accent, but it should be fine.
 

Cabaratier

Neo Member
It's a Juncker joke.

Another nice Luyendijk column: https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ay-brexit-britain-uk-europe-liberal?CMP=fb_gu

"Yet as the government of Theresa May and its cheerleaders in the billionaire-owned press continue their illogical, ignorant and deluded promises and accusations over Brexit, it is time for Europeans to reconsider this idea of the British – or, to be more accurate, of the English.

For over a year now, virtually all signs coming out of London suggest that Europeans are not just bidding farewell to an EU member state. They must also come to grips with a future in which their neighbours across the Channel and the North Sea are no longer predictable or rational.

Britain’s reputation for reliability is simply not reconcilable with the presence of Boris Johnson in the cabinet. The country’s reputation for stable government cannot be squared with the impending Brexit-induced chaos and upheaval in Scotland and Northern Ireland. With every new round of applause from Viktor Orbán in Hungary, Marine Le Pen in France and Donald Trump, Britain’s image as one of “the good guys” in the global fight for liberal values looks more obsolete."
 

CTLance

Member
It's not like the French were able to understand the latest presidential debate either... :p
"Debate", eh. It was more like the French version of this, from what I heard.

Still, I'd love to see the English version of it. At least I'd be able to follow most of it, instead of relying on subtitles or summaries.

Edit: dammit, wrong version with imaginary subtitles. I shall leave it in because it illustrates how understanding the language would be preferable. Correct version is here, I think... Doing this on mobile is a PITA.
 

oti

Banned
"Debate", eh. It was more like the French version of this, from what I heard.

Still, I'd love to see the English version of it. At least I'd be able to follow most of it, instead of relying on subtitles or summaries.

France24 did a live translation. It was as chaotic as you imagine it but still better than nothing.
 
My post isn't very clear . I meant he genuinely seems disappointed but I can't work out why when Britain always seems to fight against what he wants the EU to be. It wasn't the language thing in particular.
 

oti

Banned
My post isn't very clear . I meant he genuinely seems disappointed but I can't work out why when Britain always seems to fight against what he wants the EU to be. It wasn't the language thing in particular.

On an emotional level everyone is said about this.
On a pragmatic level everyone is bummed out we'll loose years and years of time because of this stupid decision.
 
My post isn't very clear . I meant he genuinely seems disappointed but I can't work out why when Britain always seems to fight against what he wants the EU to be. It wasn't the language thing in particular.

Because as much as there's likely to be a practical benefit towards EU integration with the departure of the UK, it still robs some of the romanticism. Instead of a continual stride towards progress and the continent becoming one big happy family, it has to come to terms with the fact that a country they thought was a happy member - however much a 'problem child' of sorts - ultimately does not like them, at least according to the majority of people that voted. Since the analogy that comes up so often is divorce, think of it as nostalgia for the ex. Sure, it may be better to ultimately move on, but it's natural to look back on the good times and wonder how things went wrong.

More cynically, there's also the simple fact that the departure of the UK will weaken the Union militarily, economically, and at least some part politically, at least in the short term. The thing is, the EU is willing to put up with that in the name of the ideals that underline its very existence; the Brexiteers fundamentally do not get that.
 
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