A second version of the game is in steam because:
And Doug talked about the tweet
"Yes, we have removed the game's sales page and ceased relations with the developer after he threatened to kill one of our employees."
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VALVE fires DOTA tourney host, Gabe Newell calls the host "an ass" publicly on Reddit
- Thread starter Abilidebob
- Start date
A second version of the game is in steam because:
And Doug talked about the tweet
"Yes, we have removed the game's sales page and ceased relations with the developer after he threatened to kill one of our employees."
I don't think Icefrog saying 'Be yourself' is a good out for James, since he did dial it up a notch during this tournament.
Then again, contacting him last minute and giving him no proper communication channels besides Bruno is on Valve. The bad production is on Valve too.
It leads to an ill-prepared, frazzled host left to deal with unforseen stream delays, while an amateurish production crew is doing a bad job of making your game look good, all while social media is shitting on your tournament. I think both sides were under immense stress and made some rash decisions - James with his jokes and Valve with how they've handled this whole thing. Also, you cannot blame James for being unprepared because he had taken a break from Dota to create his own game, and being chosen as host was unexpected, especially because this person had hosted the prior major and done an amazing job.
Then again, contacting him last minute and giving him no proper communication channels besides Bruno is on Valve. The bad production is on Valve too.
It leads to an ill-prepared, frazzled host left to deal with unforseen stream delays, while an amateurish production crew is doing a bad job of making your game look good, all while social media is shitting on your tournament. I think both sides were under immense stress and made some rash decisions - James with his jokes and Valve with how they've handled this whole thing. Also, you cannot blame James for being unprepared because he had taken a break from Dota to create his own game, and being chosen as host was unexpected, especially because this person had hosted the prior major and done an amazing job.
Best case scenario would have been if James had been suspended till he gave a public apology, then leaving him as host till the main event, after which you replace him, and decide on a future date if you want to work with him again. A lifetime ban from Valve tournaments is pretty much a lifetime ban from Dota hosting duties.
Lmao.
I don't think you answered my question. Not that you'd know the answer to it, but seriously. They are understaffed, so they go with this extremely unprofessional route? Come on.
You're right of course. I just wonder with things like this, if Valve/Twitch/YouTube etc. were to ban all of those idiots/kids spewing crap on chat, what would that mean for their platform? Would Twitch without the Twitch chat still be as big as it is today? I should not have said anything about Dota however since I don't know anything about Dota. My bad.
eot
Banned
They've been doing dumb shit for years, it's just taken a while for people to stop cutting them so much slack for it. Five, six years ago you couldn't criticise them at all.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
The game was actually not added back to steam because he stepped down. And the guy who left actually started working for the company again anyway. I don't blame him for going back to the company, that he owns a large chunk of anyhow.
The reason why the game is back on steam is because they sold the game to another company. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-02-17-paranautical-activity-resurfaces-on-steam-after-its-dev-threatened-gabe-newell
I'm probably the target audience for the dota majors and all I wanted to watch was the games. I feel like Valve failed in doing that well.
2GD was a staple community personality that help build the dota community and I feel like he is getting shit on for being himself. I hope he they bring him back because he was honestly the best part of the down time.
2GD was a staple community personality that help build the dota community and I feel like he is getting shit on for being himself. I hope he they bring him back because he was honestly the best part of the down time.
Sadly not the first time gabe shows his ugly side
https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/33uplp/mods_and_steam/cqol9re?context=3
https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/33uplp/mods_and_steam/cqol9re?context=3
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I'm the opposite. He is the sort of trash that needs to be cut from esports if it is to grow it's audience in the future.
Not when your 'job' is to be basically what he was. That's like a standup comedian being fired for telling an offensive joke, but one that they are famous for and tell all the time and have told in the past at the exact same venue.
If you don't want his style of commentary, don't hire him. People are acting like this is some new relationship and Valve was in over their heads, these guys have worked together A LOT before.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
It is a strange thing, because some people can get away with being offensive/rude and not get into trouble.
Louis CK seems above it. It's like controversial just lashes off him, but there are other entertainer types, who simply do not. They have people upset at them, and petitions and groups are formed to reign them in and apologize or get them fired.
Or sometimes, it is straight up bias. Take UFC commentator Joe Rogan. After Dana White, he is extremely polarizing, opinonated and even though nobody questions his knowledge of fighting, more than a few fighters have come out and said he was biased towards grapplers. He has also let some offensive language slip on the air.
I wonder if people can be consolidated into a position of establishment where people are more likely to let something slide. To contrast, this guy- can't get away with this behavior.
But if you had something like Bill Burr- who was that funny, it wouldn't be a problem, would it? There is just something about being rude and offensive for entertainers, comedians, commentators and everyone else there is a skill.
I sympathize with the guy in the sense if he has made a platform on being an asshole, and if this is not a new behavior- well, then it might be confusing if this is the reason why you are famous, and you perceive your shittyness to be quitessential lubricent of your success.
The other side of it, is that DOTAs community is toxic. It always has been, and it's a shame.
Blizzard has pledged as one of their top priorities- To make people less shitty towards each other online in gaming. I would love for Valve to jump on that bandwagon too.
Not in the sense that language has to be clean. Smacktalk and trash talk are fun, most people engaged are adults or older teenagers. But there is a world of difference between saying cunt to shit on someone, with *ill intentions* and then say it, in an entertainer fashion at a place and time where it makes sense.
Louis CK seems above it. It's like controversial just lashes off him, but there are other entertainer types, who simply do not. They have people upset at them, and petitions and groups are formed to reign them in and apologize or get them fired.
Or sometimes, it is straight up bias. Take UFC commentator Joe Rogan. After Dana White, he is extremely polarizing, opinonated and even though nobody questions his knowledge of fighting, more than a few fighters have come out and said he was biased towards grapplers. He has also let some offensive language slip on the air.
I wonder if people can be consolidated into a position of establishment where people are more likely to let something slide. To contrast, this guy- can't get away with this behavior.
But if you had something like Bill Burr- who was that funny, it wouldn't be a problem, would it? There is just something about being rude and offensive for entertainers, comedians, commentators and everyone else there is a skill.
I sympathize with the guy in the sense if he has made a platform on being an asshole, and if this is not a new behavior- well, then it might be confusing if this is the reason why you are famous, and you perceive your shittyness to be quitessential lubricent of your success.
The other side of it, is that DOTAs community is toxic. It always has been, and it's a shame.
Blizzard has pledged as one of their top priorities- To make people less shitty towards each other online in gaming. I would love for Valve to jump on that bandwagon too.
Not in the sense that language has to be clean. Smacktalk and trash talk are fun, most people engaged are adults or older teenagers. But there is a world of difference between saying cunt to shit on someone, with *ill intentions* and then say it, in an entertainer fashion at a place and time where it makes sense.
Also the production company that handled this event has never done a good job and always had terrible production and lack of coordination. This really doesn't look good for Valve.
When it comes to 2gd it's really strange that they hire him and then fire him for being the kind of host that he's know for. It's also strange because he can tone it down and if what 2gd has written is true all would have been solved with some kind of communication.
The production issues are worse though, everyone knew KeyTV is terrible and everything they have produced has been plagued with problems so why did Valve hire them.
It just seems Valve can't manage events and have really poor communication structures. I mean, 2gd being fired by one of his friends showing him a mail on his phone is just terrible and Gabes lack of professionalism by writing a shitty post on reddit calling him an ass isn't helping their case.
When it comes to 2gd it's really strange that they hire him and then fire him for being the kind of host that he's know for. It's also strange because he can tone it down and if what 2gd has written is true all would have been solved with some kind of communication.
The production issues are worse though, everyone knew KeyTV is terrible and everything they have produced has been plagued with problems so why did Valve hire them.
It just seems Valve can't manage events and have really poor communication structures. I mean, 2gd being fired by one of his friends showing him a mail on his phone is just terrible and Gabes lack of professionalism by writing a shitty post on reddit calling him an ass isn't helping their case.
Are you referring to Gabe, the CEO that is calling his employee an ass on reddit? That IS pretty immature, damn.
Speaks like someone who has no idea what they are talking about.
Probably, Twitch built just on the other platforms, that preceded them. When users emigrated from livestream to ustream.tv, it got bigger and bigger regardless and when they eventually moved to justin.tv, the same continued. It's the natural progression of the medium and the "chat experience" doesn't change anything. I mean, it was better on the previous platforms and should all the kids/idiots go away, more "normal" users would start to chat. There are some channels where people in chat are reasonable, even at 1k (there is even one channel which is fine at 20k+, though, you can barely read the messages because it's going too fast). And if you look at tournament streams with 50k+, there aren't many people using the chat in comparison.
crazyrabbits
Banned
Like I said before, that's the vibe I'm getting too. They allowed him to host the event, despite knowing his track record, but apparently gave him no directions other than an employee (did he have direct authorization from up high to advise him on what to do) telling him to "be yourself".
And then they act surprised and shocked that he's thrown out and has to fill airtime while production problems are going on around him and he's being his usual self.
And he said that he wanted to deal with the matter privately, but they blindsided him and put out a post disparaging him.
But how he acted as the Shanghai major is not how he acted in the past events they hired him for. While you can't say it came out of nowhere, since he did act that way in the past during smaller events, the guy hasn't done any casting or hosting in two years, and was civil for the previous 3 events they hired him for. I would expect him to do the same kind of show he did the last 3 times he was hired by Valve, and not put on the type of show he did for smaller online tournaments in 2013.
They could just spend some money and actually hire people to run a division for them. I mean riot handles their shit fantastically
shira
Member
Sadly most of those people are employed by Riot.
james is definitely an ass that's why you tell james explicitly to only be at maximum 50% james
lmao
He basically said "Money keeps things going." What, is that a taboo thing to say in America now?
You don't have to apologize. Some aspects of toxicity in Dota are overblown, while other aspects are not understood by players who don't play the game enough. So you are both partially right and wrong.
For example: In my experience, it is rare for people to flame on voice chat. In lower/average matchmaking levels, people don't usually use their mics, and if you start the conversation by talking on the mic, people are more likely to come out of their shell and respond back if they have a mic. Most of my solo victories occur when I'm able to talk to my teammates on the mic. A person's also less likely to flame using their voice because it adds a touch of humanity/identity to it. People tend to flame way more in text chat because it feels so impersonal.
The biggest hurdle/cause of toxicity is being matched with teammates who don't speak your language. In US servers, it is not uncommon to get matched with Russian/Peruvian/Latin American players. Usually these players don't understand English and you won't understand their language. So you're left with communicating via pings, the in game chat wheel, or the text chat. The lack of communication leads to worse performance in a team game, and players tend to find someone to blame. That's why the most common insults are common English terms like 'retard', 'idiot', 'feeder', 'bitch', 'report', 'gg ez' etc. Common English words that all the cultures seem to understand. To a player new to Dota or competitive games, this can seem overwhelming, but after a certain point, you tend to filter these insults out, and it can make you think of the other player as a bot, something less than human, because of how tired and redundant these phrases can get.
It also leads to decent human beings becoming casual racists. You might be indifferent to Russia or Russian players, but after a 100 matches of playing with players who don't speak your language, you tend to credit your losses to them and start making stereotypes in your mind. The next time you come across someone with a cyrillic gamertag, your mind goes into defeatist mode and you're already hating that player for existing and losing you the game before the game even begins. I've seen this happen to friends of mine.
I do not think the game is good for solo players who want to avoid toxicity. Solo play in Dota 2 requires really tough skin. I almost exclusively play with friends because the game is really fun with friends even when you're losing, and we are usually matched with other stacks of players, which tend to be less toxic than individual players. I don't condemn general taunting, trash talking. We usually take jabs at each other after flashy kills but we also pause for players if they disconnect, commend good players ,etc. That's how 90% of our matches go but we've reached the average skill level. The climb to that level can still be really bad, especially if you're playing solo.
Valve can't instantly solve these problems because of the team aspect of the game, as well as the language barrier between players. Valve can implement a matchmaking system that only matches players who speak your language, but they already have something like this and it doesn't stop players who don't speak English from selecting English as a choice.
Regarding Twitch chat, Dota 2's twitch community is the least creative, stupidest, meme/pasta spamming community I've seen. There are 3 big causes for this in my opinion:
- No slow mode, lax moderation in Dota 2 streams. Which means messages scroll by too quickly for any proper conversation to take place.
- Many non-English speakers, who find it easier to regurgitate memes/twitch emoticons than think of original statements.
- Most chatters are low skill, on again off again players who watch more than they play, and this is their primary social outlet.
Sorry for the long, rambling, off topic post.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Yeah, I don't get it either. There are a lot of irrational sentiments about that pay for mod thing though.
I dont see the ugly side in terms of wording (insults etc) here. Sure the pay for mods thing sucks in many ways, the decision to give it a try is understandable though.
Read the post directly under it to see why it was viewed as insulting. He's saying money is what drives mods, but mods were all free prior to the fiasco
This was really dumb by the reddit Skyrim community.
What he meant was 'Money is good for the community because modders deserve to get paid for their work'
What they heard 'I think it's good for the community for Valve to get paid and take away the thousands of mods that you guys have enjoyed for free'
Now no one gets paid.
Probably, but would Valve actually make them a division, or just standard Valve employees that just float around? I think that approach would take far too long to bed in.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
That is one narrow perspective. But from another, wider perspective, skyrim was made in the first place because of all the money people spent on previous games. Hence, the community's expenditure had bethesda make a new game. Therefore, community steers work is correct. Same would be true for mods if it was enabled.
The paid mods thing had issues. But gaben personally responding to people's concerns... and spinning it to be negative... I just can't agree with.
It's a bit amusing really. In the US (and many parts of the world), suggesting in any way that the entire economic system might need some reform to be less dependent on and revolving about ever-increasing cash flow and wealth disparity is a mortal sin. However, taking that fact and actually stating it and its logical implications and acting accordingly within the rules created by that system is also a bad idea.
He didn't force anybody to make their stuff commercial. He simply opened up a possibility. Be angry at the guy who decides to sell his hard work, if anything. But that's not as easy as going against Gaben and making it seem like a "US against THEM" thing, when in reality it is the community eating itself since they can't accept that some people would want compensation.
I guess for some people this is an ideological thing, almost, that mods have to be free, but people shouldn't think that's a universally agreed upon thing. I, for one, think mod makers should have every right to sell, if the devs allow them to.
Interficium
Banned
As long as I get free stuff, right? Modders should be "doing it for the community" anyways.
Gamers are too short-sighted to see that the best possible thing that could happen is modders becoming millionaires. You'd probably see a lot of cool games get developed then.
But no, gotta keep the Skyrim sexy mods free AT ALL COSTS.
Valve lost some major points in my book; this whole major demonstrates how awful an actual international international would be; firing your chosen host (who has hosted numerous events with the same style he came to Shanghai with) based on some last minute electronic cross-ocean back n forth correspondence with little to no direction or expectations given beforehand... what the hell does Valve expect? You absolutely know what you're getting into when you hire James (the man hosted 3 goddam TI's); he's an ass in the same way Ricky Gervais is an ass--that's his entire comedic schtick and that's usually what he implicitly gets paid for.
The whole situation just reeks of major incompetence and an internal divide on the hiring that goes all the way back Valve's whole corporate democracy spiel (though it appears Gabe does ultimately get the final say, el presidente`). I truly feel bad for James and the way he has been treated, most entertaining panel host by far in my book as he just extracts the best of out his fellow panelists with lots of laughs and joy to be had. You can see the night and day difference between the upbeat and "fun" panel of yesterday and the Orwellian death panel that showed up today.
The overwhelming outpouring of support on social media (and condemnation of Valve/Gabe) should show just how many people enjoy James' crass yet fresh brand of humor and style of hosting--from reddit to twitch to twitter to whatever have you. I'm just not seeing a "family friendly silent majority disgusted with the abhorrent behavior of the ass, James '2gd Harding!!! Unacceptable. Awful host that scares people away and only attracts children!" Na, man.
Why? The vast majority of people that worked with the man tweeted their support and shock. Most people say he's pleasant and enjoyable to work with and his own story shows that he also advocates for his fellow panelists despite Valve wanting some free labor or to turn them into pure hat peddlers. It should be telling that one of the few negative responses to this whole situation with respect to someone close to 2gd comes from an ex-girlfriend lol.
Lol, by simply hiring James with little to no strings, Valve is setting the tone of the event. Your host generally sets said tone, and you hire the man who encompasses your vision. See Ricky Gervais Golden Globes and the wide appeal (especially to people who don't give a shit about celebrity awards shows).
The whole situation just reeks of major incompetence and an internal divide on the hiring that goes all the way back Valve's whole corporate democracy spiel (though it appears Gabe does ultimately get the final say, el presidente`). I truly feel bad for James and the way he has been treated, most entertaining panel host by far in my book as he just extracts the best of out his fellow panelists with lots of laughs and joy to be had. You can see the night and day difference between the upbeat and "fun" panel of yesterday and the Orwellian death panel that showed up today.
The overwhelming outpouring of support on social media (and condemnation of Valve/Gabe) should show just how many people enjoy James' crass yet fresh brand of humor and style of hosting--from reddit to twitch to twitter to whatever have you. I'm just not seeing a "family friendly silent majority disgusted with the abhorrent behavior of the ass, James '2gd Harding!!! Unacceptable. Awful host that scares people away and only attracts children!" Na, man.
Why? The vast majority of people that worked with the man tweeted their support and shock. Most people say he's pleasant and enjoyable to work with and his own story shows that he also advocates for his fellow panelists despite Valve wanting some free labor or to turn them into pure hat peddlers. It should be telling that one of the few negative responses to this whole situation with respect to someone close to 2gd comes from an ex-girlfriend lol.
Lol, by simply hiring James with little to no strings, Valve is setting the tone of the event. Your host generally sets said tone, and you hire the man who encompasses your vision. See Ricky Gervais Golden Globes and the wide appeal (especially to people who don't give a shit about celebrity awards shows).
@Anbokr:
They were already slipping for me because of their handling of steam market economy, trade restrictions, slipshod compendiums and in-game events, and ugly ass sets or sets with missing features and particles.
Its like they don't give a shit about the quality of the game anymore. While the base game is the best its ever been thanks to Papa Frog, everything around it is shit, because Valve wants to make the most money out of the least effort.
This major seems to be another in a long line of throwing shit at a wall to see what sticks.
They were already slipping for me because of their handling of steam market economy, trade restrictions, slipshod compendiums and in-game events, and ugly ass sets or sets with missing features and particles.
Its like they don't give a shit about the quality of the game anymore. While the base game is the best its ever been thanks to Papa Frog, everything around it is shit, because Valve wants to make the most money out of the least effort.
This major seems to be another in a long line of throwing shit at a wall to see what sticks.
That's what I've been saying since forever. Valve doesn't give a single fuck about the quality of their games as long as the hat/crate/keys/compendium money keeps rolling in. We used to talk a lot about the evil EA or the greedy fucks that Ubi and Activision were (and still are), but the truth is Valve is on their level and perhaps even worse right now.
This whole mess only seems to strengthen my standing on the subject.
Another thing I want to add is that many players might not know how much the community adds to Dota 2. About 70% of the content is from the community - artwork, music, cosmetics, HUDs, custom games, merchandise desing, Couriers etc. That means Valve is putting in little work but curating what gets into the game and when, and making big bucks out of it.
The same goes for players, casters, observers,etc. - guys like Tobiwan have been in the community for years. Many casters and personalities began their career in DotA 1, moved to HoN, and transitioned to Dota 2. They kept the scene alive before Valve was involved, and they are a big reason for why it is as big as it is today.
However, this is a double edged sword. Dota fans like to tout that the open circuit of Dota is superior to other esports in that if Valve ever stops supporting Dota, there will still be third party tournaments, there will still be casters and observers, and there will still be players, because Dota thrived when there was barely any support for it. But when Valve decides to fire someone like Tobiwan or James, it is really a slap in the face of these players because it invalidates all the work they did over the years. Because of the disproportionate amount of prize money in TI and Majors, getting blacklisted from Valve tournaments is basically career suicide, and its appalling that you can be erased by a company that built its game on the back of your work. If James or Tobi were guys who were hired by Valve and made into stars, it wouldn't be so insulting. But the opposite is true. They are hard working individuals that work for years before becoming prominent figures, and are then hired by Valve to add prestige to their tournaments.
Each 'signature for payment' scheme, each caster firing, each significant market economy change shows how little they sometimes think of the people that have shaped the community of this game. Valve by themselves have done nothing for the community except make TI a common gathering place for said players, workshop artists, casters, etc.
The same goes for players, casters, observers,etc. - guys like Tobiwan have been in the community for years. Many casters and personalities began their career in DotA 1, moved to HoN, and transitioned to Dota 2. They kept the scene alive before Valve was involved, and they are a big reason for why it is as big as it is today.
However, this is a double edged sword. Dota fans like to tout that the open circuit of Dota is superior to other esports in that if Valve ever stops supporting Dota, there will still be third party tournaments, there will still be casters and observers, and there will still be players, because Dota thrived when there was barely any support for it. But when Valve decides to fire someone like Tobiwan or James, it is really a slap in the face of these players because it invalidates all the work they did over the years. Because of the disproportionate amount of prize money in TI and Majors, getting blacklisted from Valve tournaments is basically career suicide, and its appalling that you can be erased by a company that built its game on the back of your work. If James or Tobi were guys who were hired by Valve and made into stars, it wouldn't be so insulting. But the opposite is true. They are hard working individuals that work for years before becoming prominent figures, and are then hired by Valve to add prestige to their tournaments.
Each 'signature for payment' scheme, each caster firing, each significant market economy change shows how little they sometimes think of the people that have shaped the community of this game. Valve by themselves have done nothing for the community except make TI a common gathering place for said players, workshop artists, casters, etc.
I think the more interesting #Drama is the amazing shit show the ktv production director apparently threw, particularly if it is also the one that can be heard over Mushi's interview. While hilarious, their production was fucking appalling! As for 2GD:
On point.
Though I do like 2GD for other events. I think the best degree of humour / offence for these events is shown by some of the English casters. The have fun with everything yet don't overstep the mark
On point.
Though I do like 2GD for other events. I think the best degree of humour / offence for these events is shown by some of the English casters. The have fun with everything yet don't overstep the mark
No, i'm referring to this 2GD guy who was hired to be professional host and failed to do his part.
I think its fucking weird that their CS stuff is always amazing but their Dota tournies are 80% shitshows with crap production and constant issues
They should create an internal team that is just there to run their Dota shit. Because their current system is garbage
artsi
Member
Yep, and what about the recent security issue and crap ass communication about that.
Right now on the VR field they (and their loyal fans) are painting a picture of themselves as the messiah of openness (we support Rift too, bla bla) but the fact is, they just don't want to let competitors grab those sweet software sales.
They're right to shit on him cause he's most of what's wrong with the community tbh. Consider his firing an indictment of the awful segment of the Dota fandom.