Excellent Reply by Redeye
https://ask.fm/xReDeYe/answers/1348...ter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=answer_own
https://ask.fm/xReDeYe/answers/1348...ter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=answer_own
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VALVE fires DOTA tourney host, Gabe Newell calls the host "an ass" publicly on Reddit
- Thread starter Abilidebob
- Start date
Also calling a subcontractor (what 2GD is pretty much for valve for hosting these events) an ass publicly is also as bad if not worse then what 2GD did in my eyes. Especially if there was 0 direction from valves direction on what they wanted unlike the TIs where he was told what they actually wanted out of him. I doubt he would have said anything in public if Gabe wouldn't have made that post. He would have just taken the shit and stay quiet about it (like he has done in the past. this is pretty much expected out of professionals...)
In my profession (software development) if someone publicly defamed a subcontractor even if they fucked up it would be an automatic lawsuit/nobody would ever work with the company outsourcing their stuff (unless they grossly overpay/outsource to third world). Professionals are just expected to keep this shit private.
Fire the guy sure that is your right. But do it like a pro.
Because they hired 2gd? And he hosted 3 TI's in a similar fashion, be yourself from the designer of dota 2 is what I'd take as, be the James 2gd Harding from that James 2gd Harding in a nutshell youtube video that people love to post.
From his write-up it seems he was given very little direction other than to kill the pornography jokes during the actual live broadcast (which he did). Maybe there's more that we don't know, but I don't know, I'm inclined to believe James when he says they hired him, he got some encouragement from Icefrog and Bruno to be his standard self (and not a the robot panels we're now used to seeing), and he went from there.
People are forgetting that he hosted 3 TI's in a very similar fashion, hell, this is the dude who straight up told n0tail at a TI, "You're sand king was fucking shit. Do you actually know how to play the hero. You see..." and it was awesome. They knew exactly what they were getting since they went through 3 whole TI's with the man, and it seems like they straight up axed 2gd for being 2gd. I'll agree with one big thing in Gabe's short statement, they made a huge mistake hiring James because that's obviously not the host that they wanted (or perhaps that Gabe personally wanted). It's just mystifying.
Visualante2
Member
If Valve said to 2GD, be yourself then it is their fault.
But then I wonder why Valve would do this given what Gabe said about previous issues and hesitations.
It just does not add up. Valve is either trying to cover up their own mistakes or 2GD is lying about that instruction.
Either way, I think Valve need to seriously consider an A stream with people like Merlini, Winter, Red Eye and a B stream with people like Pyrion, Slacks and 2GD.
Bottom line, it wasn't even A grade material by 2GD's own standards. It was a bit awkward and I expect more from everyone.
But then I wonder why Valve would do this given what Gabe said about previous issues and hesitations.
It just does not add up. Valve is either trying to cover up their own mistakes or 2GD is lying about that instruction.
Either way, I think Valve need to seriously consider an A stream with people like Merlini, Winter, Red Eye and a B stream with people like Pyrion, Slacks and 2GD.
Bottom line, it wasn't even A grade material by 2GD's own standards. It was a bit awkward and I expect more from everyone.
ashecitism
Member
I think its fucking weird that their CS stuff is always amazing but their Dota tournies are 80% shitshows with crap production and constant issues
They should create an internal team that is just there to run their Dota shit. Because their current system is garbage
With the CS majors all Valve does is define the rules and format, give money and take care of players. ESL, DreamHack, PGL and MLG do the hosting and they pick their people. With the Dota majors and TI Valve is more hands-on, especially TI. That's mostly done in-house. For the first major they picked ESL as host and it was decent. For this they picked an org know for their shitty quality...
I'm not going to go dig into all of his TI segments, but I'm sure he made some equally bawdy jokes and sharp critiques throughout TI with some profanity mixed here and there. The man has simply never changed his style. He's an open book when it comes to hosting.
The funny thing is that James is the closest thing to the highly lauded CS production/hosts genuinely funny, informative, joyful, and very very savage panels that dota will ever get. Yeah, most people outside of the CSGO community hate the CS hosts and panelists or circle jerk on them, but the fact remains that within the CS community these guys are pretty much universally well liked. It's actually quite astounding at just how much loyalty they command.
This is the crux of this issue. James Harding is an ass but Valve hired him knowing this, pair this with the terrible production quality of the Shanghai Major, and you have a terrible concoction. It wouldn't be so bad if tournaments were 100% funded by Valve but the ($3M) prizepool is sourced from the fans. There's no excuse for this tournament or any other to be this shoddy. Lost respect for all the parties involved here, especially Valve.
EDIT: My mistake, the prizepool is set at $3m and is put up by Valve, however the compendiums (& extras) they sell are in the tens of millions. There's no excuse for the production quality to be so poor.
Yup.
Yeah, reminds me of New York City.
In fairness, taking a message from IceFrog of confirmation to go further than you usually do for these events, is just an awful thought process. I really like 2GD for what he does, but for TI he usually has been suitably more reserved. For this, he went too far, and I don't think a single message saying "be yourself" means "take it further than you usually have"
Agree on the community and part of why 2GD is where he is and adored. However I do love some of the casters that can be amazingly funny and informative as well as offensive in all the right proportions. Particularly so for the Brit casters like prion flax
I'm an asshole Dota 2 player and I approve this message.
ashecitism
Member
Doesn't Valve themselves put in the $3m?
Lol whatever makes you sleep at night
Yes! Majors are fully funded by valve while the International are funded with crowdfund and valve.
This is my view. The number one comparison to 2gd that I see in mainstream media is Ricky Gervais, the dude just cracks bawdy jokes and skirts a fine line but he still manages to be hilarious and entertaining without incurring the wrath of internet vigilantes.
It's hilarious that people are trying to connect 2gd to the most toxic elements of the dota pub community at large, just laughable and just flat out dishonest.
You're right. Taking IceFrog's message as Carte Blanche to be an obnoxious twat was stupid of but no one on Valve's side told him to tone it down either. Don't Valve prep the hosts and panellists they hire? What a mess.
shira
Member
This one is different, it's Valve funded with a static prize pool.
With chest sales and compendium sales I would guess it's at least $50 million in sales of compendiums and chests.
I believe this is where you're wrong, and to be honest anyone who following the e-sport scene would know that you don't hire motherfucking 2GD for being professional. His jokes, banter, and flaming is what makes him entertaining and famous.
No one knows that. That is just conjecture of the situation. From what Gabe says about a second chance, it is implied that there were issues before, but nothing else. I would be surprised if this is said, yet no one has ever talked about it and 2GD had no idea.
OverBlood 3
Banned
First I've heard of him, he seems quite funny. His humour is standard fare, not terribly tight with delivery but nothing too bad.
spindoctor
Member
Has it even occurred to you that their communities are growing because of the quality of their games? Can you see that there just might be a correlation between a good quality game and a larger playerbase that wants to spend money on optional cosmetics?
metareferential
Member
I know nothing about DOTA tournaments, but looking at some videos, I can't stand him already.
I don't think it does a good service to the medium as whole. And there's plenty like him on the internet, but most don't have a place in the spotlight in one of the biggest tournaments.
Still, I don't get why big companies share thoughts like that. Want to fire him?
Good. Leave personal comments aside.
I don't think it does a good service to the medium as whole. And there's plenty like him on the internet, but most don't have a place in the spotlight in one of the biggest tournaments.
Still, I don't get why big companies share thoughts like that. Want to fire him?
Good. Leave personal comments aside.
My mistake but like you said the sales of the compendiums means Valve are by no means struggling financially to put together a competent production.
The prizepool is fully funded by Valve. The money they make from compendiums dwarfs the amount of money they put in themselves.
MrCunningham
Member
Comparing stand up comedians to sports commentators is a bit apples and oranges. Louis CK and Bill Burr can get away with being vulgar because of audience expectations. People go to a Louis CK show expecting to see a lot of unfiltered, off cuff humor and personal opinions presented in a comedic and thought provoking way. It's all an expression of freedom of speech. It's part of the landscape that legends like George Carlin and Richard Prior helped curate. But even a good stand up comedian knows where to draw a line between them and their audience.
Joe Rogan may be a polarizing commentator too, but I'm sure he has more restrictions put on him (when he is commentating) than a stand up comedian does. He also knows where to draw a line between his own personal views and flat out insulting the grapplers and the audiences that watch these events. I don't think has ever went so far as to call people rednecks, cunts, pedophiles or even ni**ers. If he did, he would've had his ass canned. People don't generally tune into these events to watch the commentators insult people (as amusing as that may sound).
With some of the examples presented here in this thread (not just the main tourney host, but the other guy with the racist slur too) shows that the people commentating on these events exhibit a much lower level of professionalism than Joe Rogan does. They seem to treat these events like small scale broadcasts that are aimed at an insular group of people. Which really seems like the opposite of what Valve wants these tournaments to be. It's fine to have opinionated commentators that understand their core audience, but those commentators need to understand how to show restraint too. Casually throwing around derogatory language and passing off racial slurs as humor is really bad form for an event that wants to be global and wide reaching.
Pretty much, Gabe was too polite to him.
This link is being spammed in twitch chat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIKv9hYNF5w&feature=youtu.be&t=1h6m15s
Totalbiscuit talking about 2GD's casting style. Yikes. Its pretty brutal. But it was in 2012. Gives insight into his offscreen persona. He might really just be a dick. :/
Don't kill me #TeamYames. I might be posting against my interests.
Totalbiscuit talking about 2GD's casting style. Yikes. Its pretty brutal. But it was in 2012. Gives insight into his offscreen persona. He might really just be a dick. :/
Don't kill me #TeamYames. I might be posting against my interests.
I feel like at this point the central point of discussion shouldn't be the quality and style of James' hosting as that is entirely a matter of preference. At best you could argue that the provocative nature of James doesn't fit the "premium" standard Valve tries to set for these majors, but that's up to Valve themselves, not us.
Valve naturally has the right to dismiss a panellist/host if it feels like it's being misrepresented or if the quality is not up to snuff. It could've been handled much better though, and all Valve has achieved right now is a Major with a dissappointing atmosphere (disregarding games, games are great) and creating friction between the community, community figures and themselves. It's kind of embarrassing really IMO. Even in the case James´ entire statement is false and full of lies, the official response they - Gabe put out is just disrespectful
Valve naturally has the right to dismiss a panellist/host if it feels like it's being misrepresented or if the quality is not up to snuff. It could've been handled much better though, and all Valve has achieved right now is a Major with a dissappointing atmosphere (disregarding games, games are great) and creating friction between the community, community figures and themselves. It's kind of embarrassing really IMO. Even in the case James´ entire statement is false and full of lies, the official response they - Gabe put out is just disrespectful
old manatee
Banned
If Gabe Newell told everyone that I'm an ass I would hang myself.
It's def bad.
I'm hoping for an additional followup on what exactly caused the decision and if it was just Gaben laying it down.
The public firing of the production (Not James) is completely justified given how bad it was though (and they fucked up before). I'm sure the mood is at least partly tied together while it shouldn't have been.
I liked the GD Studio and James' crassness but for whatever reason it felt too much this event.
Ya it is so bizarre... why did Gabe go public on calling James an ass when Valve previously told the latter to keep things internal.
This can ruin his career.
Is this really true? I don't think he acted that differently at TI compared to this major but they're so long I doubt anyone really remembered clearly.
boredandlazy
Member
Imp the Dimp
Member
Yeah, it's a terrible situation for James. Absolutely kills his reputation and his appeal to be hired for future events in addition to being humiliated in front of hundreds of thousands. May or may not be a taste of his own medicine given that he mistreated some players in front of a similarly huge crowd on day 1 but I wish Gabe had handled this differently.
I saw TI3 at home and TI4 live and I can't recall anything too mean. Bruno was at both and airtime was split between James, Bruno, Sheever, Draskyl, etc. But like you said, it was long ago, so I can't be 100% certain.
He had to fill hours of dead time everyone got to see, not so much like TI where it was guest, panel, discussion, cut. IIRC
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
Was the lack of pay for casters/hosts known before James' statement? That seems utterly ridiculous.
The main issue seems to be the style of hosting. I honestly find the Redeye/spots angle to be tedious and feel like most people saying it's for the better have no intention of ever watching the product; If "professional" hosting led to much greater numbers I'd see why they'd go for it, but I don't think that's ever the case.
The main issue seems to be the style of hosting. I honestly find the Redeye/spots angle to be tedious and feel like most people saying it's for the better have no intention of ever watching the product; If "professional" hosting led to much greater numbers I'd see why they'd go for it, but I don't think that's ever the case.
It's really more of a case of the communities growing despite the quality of their games tbqh.
CS:GO got very little support apart from the occasional patch or update. It only really became the monster it is today when Valve figured they could monetize in every aspect of the game (skins, operations, etc). Before that happened it was the fans that kept it going with custom games, maps, etc. Valve recently even went out of their way to shut down some of these community managed servers.
Dota experienced similar issues. It got more attention than CS:GO did because it was a newer game, but it's impossible to forget the clusterfuck that Reborn launch was, the loss of features and the sheer amount of bugs we got. It's also impossible to look away at the fact they are slow feeding us content that should have been in the game years ago, we still don't have hero parity with dota 1 for instance, while constantly pushing out more hats and compendiums.
At the end of the day it was a very poor showing from both parties and I honestly think Valve should have shown more respect towards someone that helped their game be what it is today. It's undeniable the good that his work during TI2 and TI3, mainly, did for the game, especially if you consider that at that time it was nearing the end of the Beta stage.
Also, after reading James essay, it looks like one of the main issues between Valve and him was that Valve was trying to sell this game as a sport, surely to increase even further the target audience and maximize the hat sales. E-sports are not sports and will never be, and that's a good thing.
Valve has turned into this greedy anti-consumer company lately that hates it's fanbase. They tried to implement paid mods and get a percentage of that (which has been free for years and worked great), selling expensive microtransaction items, limiting the trade function and the marketplace, not paying people they hire for events etc. I really dislike Valve's evolution from my favourite company to just another Activision-like company. Seeing how they are being asses against the community figures that has been doing the broadcasting for years and helping popularizing dota is disgusting.
tl;dr: Fuck Valve.
tl;dr: Fuck Valve.
paperspace
Member
Pay and security vs stress and effort and sheer number of hours to put in make a lot of esports jobs 'passion' jobs.
Wouldn't surprise me tbh, but their accommodations should have been provided. When Valve goes through someone like ESL everything should be negotiated though. Pay is still not even close to worth it imo. It's why I stepped out of taking it seriously and I've gotten paid to cast thousand dollar tournaments before.