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[Pai Pai Master]

Who said anything about tolerating racism? Jesus christ everyone is talking past each other here.

Almost half the country did exactly that.

What exactly did you mean by "lines in the sand"? It's what gives us the impression that you're saying PoC need to tolerate a certain level of racism before deciding to shut people out. My "line in the sand" is at the point where someone acts racist towards me or other minorities. There's no grey area with blatant racism and hate.

 

[Razorback]

The fact that you did not say anything regarding the specific audience of the solution of talking to racist is why minorities question white "allies."

You are agreeing now but do you see how I have to pull teeth to get you to acknowledge this? You came in this thread and just posted how the study should be followed

Pull my teeth? You just assumed incorrectly what my position was.

 

[Darryl M R]

Pull my teeth? You just assumed incorrectly what my position was.

You did nothing to state your position and by posting that the study should be blindly followed you actively went against your position.

Receipts:

This sums up my feelings. Many here are insisting that others want to protect racists feelings, and to ignore racism. No one has said that. That's not the objective at all.
If the study said that the best way to get results was to kick racists in the balls, then that's what we'd do. We just want to see results, it has nothing to do with what is fair or what they deserve.

You stated that you just want to see the results based on the study. No where did you specify anything. You even provided a fictitious example stating you just want to follow whatever a study says is the way to get the results desired.

 

[Slayven]

Who said anything about tolerating racism? Jesus christ everyone is talking past each other here.

Cause one side is talking about racism as an esoteric idea, and the other has to live it.

Until shit stops being a thought experiment for some, there will never be an understanding.

 

[Audioboxer]

What do you call a person that will look children dead in the eye and say "You going to get shot you punk ass niggers" or "President Trump is going to send you back to Africa"?

"Potential allies"

This is pretty much the thread by this point.

A bunch of white moderates simply tut-tutting and saying: "Well, we could help you buuuuttttt" and proceed to do the same thing Enzom and Darryl have said ad nauseum in this thread.

Teacher.

Case in point, see the ridiculous snark that absolutely no moderate in this topic is asking for or saying, or even behaving like (one or two people got called out for being sarcastic/dismissive, Pie and Beans was one). No one sees those people as "potential allies". They see them as racists and bigots, and generally all round assholes. The discussion then becomes in all the forms that racism and bigotry exist, what are valid methods of tackling it? Very few people tell you your approach is wrong, but some like to make it their priority to tell everyone else how their approach is wrong. Not just wrong though, how much of a shitty person or apologist they must be as well. "Har har har, some liberals or allies you lot are, fuck you!" That is the level of discourse that gets people backed into corners and pissed off. You're throwing snark at people who aren't even saying the things you then accuse them of. No one likes to be misrepresented and tarred. Heck even a few minority posters in here are getting the boot just for having a different opinion.

This is why posts or posters that cannot help themselves swear every two words and constantly post snark can be empathised with for being emotional, but not necessarily engaged with unless you want to come away with a message board black eye for even trying. Ultimately as a poster you need to know when to disengage and come away respectfully.

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

Cause one said is talking about racism as an esoteric idea, and the other has to live it.

Until shit stops being a thought experiment for some, there will never be an understanding.

Yep.

 

[Slayven]

Case in point, see the ridiculous snark that absolutely no moderate in this topic is asking for or saying, or even behaving like (one or two people got called out for being sarcastic/dismissive, Pie and Beans was one). No one sees those people as "potential allies". They see them as racists and bigots, and generally all round assholes. The discussion then becomes in all the forms that racism and bigotry exist, what are valid methods of tackling it? Very few people tell you your approach is wrong, but some like to make it their priority to tell everyone else how their approach is wrong. Not just wrong though, how much of a shitty person or apologist they must be as well. "Har har har, some liberals or allies you lot are, fuck you!" That is the level of discourse that gets people backed into corners and pissed off. You're throwing snark at people who aren't even saying the things you then accuse them of. No one likes to be misrepresented and tarred. Heck even a few minority posters in here are getting the boot just for having a different opinion.

This is why posts or posters that cannot help themselves swear every two words and constantly post snark can be empathised with for being emotional, but not necessarily engaged with unless you want to come away with a message board black eye for even trying. Ultimately as a poster you need to know when to disengage and come away respectfully.

I honestly would like an answer to my question because that is the behavior we are suppose to be correcting.

 

[Razorback]

Almost half the country did exactly that.

What exactly did you mean by "lines in the sand"? It's what gives us the impression that you're saying PoC need to tolerate a certain level of racism before deciding to shut people out. My "line in the sand" is at the point where someone acts racist towards me or other minorities. There's no grey area with blatant racism and hate.

We're on the same side!

Not if you're willing to ignore racism, we're not.

Trying to fight racism through dialogue is being equated to "ignoring racism".

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

But I didn't say minorities had to adapt to what the study suggests. I agree that most of the burden of converting others should fall on white people.
Minorities have every right to be angry. The study is what it is,take it or leave it.

But that anger starts becoming unproductive when it's aimed at allies. Racism is a complicated fucking problem, it makes sense that not everyone agrees on solutions. Drawing lines in the sand like many have done in this thread helps no one.

You're right but that just ultimately means that this study isn't for us.

I've seen many threads and comments on gaf with people who have racist parents and how much they fear talking to them because it's an uncomfortable experience...but you see this study? this is what they should be doing to convert them. POC have been doing this for a long time and the push back that's happening is because we are once again being told to look our oppressors in the eye and coddle their feelings while they can continue to give two shits about us. This study should be directed to racist and people with twisted racial thoughts - that they need to learn to be more tolerant. But this is always being preached to the people who are the most tolerant and is tired of the disrespect. And it's very annoying at this point.

I don't really like the whole allies thing being put in quotation but like if you understand our pain then it shouldn't be hard to understand why being told to meet these very same people who will continue not to respect us ...to meet them halfway is messed up. A great test to this is BLM...you say that to someone who voted trump and if their answer is ALM ...then that's it.

 

[Ron Mexico]

So what level of racism should POC tolerate?

None. Absolutely positively none.

By that same token however, nobody has done "enough" to combat the problems we as a country, as a world face.

No race, creed, color, religion, sexuality, nobody, not a single soul can say "Welp, I did my part, it's someone else's problem now." If that were the case, wouldn't we not even be having this conversation now? Have some done more than others? Absolutely. Is that fair? No. Does it change the reality? Not a bit. That said, it shouldn't be the responsibility of one group or another (again, draw the "lines" how you will) to do one single iota more than anyone else. It's not a minority problem. It's not a white problem. It's not an ally problem. It's just a fucking problem and saying "that's not my job" isn't going to do a damn thing to fix it.

As a corollary, I'll use my office as an example. There's 5 of us here with one collective job-- to help our client base and grow the business. Within my group here, I have the gamut of socioeconomic categories. Different generations, different races, different religions, different sexuality, different life experiences. My first order of business when I took over was to say "that's not my job" is a 1-way ticket out of my office. We're now the top performing unit in the company. But we're not perfect and we haven't done enough. Every single day we leave opportunity behind. We can never leave here and say "Welp, I did my part." So every day we'll continue to strive to do better than we did yesterday.

 

[Breads]

Case in point, see the ridiculous snark that absolutely no moderate in this topic is asking for or saying, or even behaving like (one or two people got called out for being sarcastic/dismissive, Pie and Beans was one). No one sees those people as "potential allies". They see them as racists and bigots, and generally all round assholes. The discussion then becomes in all the forms that racism and bigotry exist, what are valid methods of tackling it? Very few people tell you your approach is wrong, but some like to make it their priority to tell everyone else how their approach is wrong. Not just wrong though, how much of a shitty person or apologist they must be as well. "Har har har, some liberals or allies you lot are, fuck you!" That is the level of discourse that gets people backed into corners and pissed off. You're throwing snark at people who aren't even saying the things you then accuse them of. No one likes to be misrepresented and tarred. Heck even a few minority posters in here are getting the boot just for having a different opinion.

This is why posts or posters that cannot help themselves swear every two words and constantly post snark can be empathised with for being emotional, but not necessarily engaged with unless you want to come away with a message board black eye for even trying. Ultimately as a poster you need to know when to disengage and come away respectfully.

I was being quite literal.

These are quotes from teachers.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BM6jLB6jSlt/

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/florida-teacher-leave-bigoted-comments-article-1.2872867

But it's k. Use me as your prop.

 

[Darryl M R]

Case in point, see the ridiculous snark that absolutely no moderate in this topic is asking for or saying, or even behaving like (one or two people got called out for being sarcastic/dismissive, Pie and Beans was one). No one sees those people as "potential allies". They see them as racists and bigots, and generally all round assholes. The discussion then becomes in all the forms that racism and bigotry exist, what are valid methods of tackling it? Very few people tell you your approach is wrong, but some like to make it their priority to tell everyone else how their approach is wrong. Not just wrong though, how much of a shitty person or apologist they must be as well. "Har har har, some liberals or allies you lot are, fuck you!" That is the level of discourse that gets people backed into corners and pissed off. You're throwing snark at people who aren't even saying the things you then accuse them of. No one likes to be misrepresented and tarred. Heck even a few minority posters in here are getting the boot just for having a different opinion.

This is why posts or posters that cannot help themselves swear every two words and constantly post snark can be empathised with for being emotional, but not necessarily engaged with unless you want to come away with a message board black eye for even trying. Ultimately as a poster you need to know when to disengage and come away respectfully.

The snark comes from people that are oppressed with racism being told that the best way to handle racism is to talk to their oppressors.

That's comparable to saying a woman that is sexual abused should talk to her sexual abuser.

The article isn't stating "Whites and Minorities should have a conversation about race." It clearly states that RACISTS should be talked to.

And people will not take the time out of their day to think that having the oppressed talk to oppressors is insane.

 

[Audioboxer]

I was being quite literal.

These are quotes from teachers.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BM6jLB6jSlt/

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/florida-teacher-leave-bigoted-comments-article-1.2872867

But it's k. Use me as your prop.

Why didn't you post this in your post until I questioned you? This topic is largely about GAFers anecdotal evidence of ways in which they try to combat racism and bigotry, and feelings on the first post study. When you want to be literal it's usually best to highlight who you are aiming at.

The snark comes from people that are oppressed with racism being told that the best way to handle racism is to talk to their oppressors.

That's comparable to saying a woman that is sexual abused should talk to her sexual abuser.

The article isn't stating "Whites and Minorities should have a conversation about race." It clearly states that RACISTS should be talked to.

And people will not take the time out of their day to think that having the oppressed talk to oppressors is not sensible.

Not many people on GAF are telling you that. Because someone shares an opinion of how they tackle things doesn't mean it's a demand you fall in line. As I've pointed out in this topic a lot of the demands are seemingly coming from a few posters, who then begin the snark when someone tries to stand their ground and say this is how I do it.

You can challenge people who do things differently but don't misrepresent them.

 

[Slayven]

Trying to fight racism through dialogue is being equated to "ignoring racism".

Nope, dialogue on racism happens everyday. What is happening is people don't want to be honest about it if someone says black people vote democrat because black people like free stuff, I am going to call that person what they are, a racist.

What people want is to be sat down, given a warm beverage and told "it is ok, you voted for obama. It is ok you think all Muslims are terrorists. Do you need a hug?"

Nah B fuck that

 

[Enzom21]

Case in point, see the ridiculous snark that absolutely no moderate in this topic is asking for or saying, or even behaving like (one or two people got called out for being sarcastic/dismissive, Pie and Beans was one). No one sees those people as "potential allies". They see them as racists and bigots, and generally all round assholes. The discussion then becomes in all the forms that racism and bigotry exist, what are valid methods of tackling it? Very few people tell you your approach is wrong, but some like to make it their priority to tell everyone else how their approach is wrong. Not just wrong though, how much of a shitty person or apologist they must be as well. "Har har har, some liberals or allies you lot are, fuck you!" That is the level of discourse that gets people backed into corners and pissed off. You're throwing snark at people who aren't even saying the things you then accuse them of. No one likes to be misrepresented and tarred. Heck even a few minority posters in here are getting the boot just for having a different opinion.

This is why posts or posters that cannot help themselves swear every two words and constantly post snark can be empathised with for being emotional, but not necessarily engaged with unless you want to come away with a message board black eye for even trying. Ultimately as a poster you need to know when to disengage and come away respectfully.

Trying to fight racism through dialogue is being equated to "ignoring racism".

I'm being told by people who claim to be allies to talk to or try to change people don't view me as a person. I am not going to give that any type of serious discussion.

Why didn't you post this in your post until I questioned you? This topic is largely about GAFers anecdotal evidence of ways in which they try to combat racism and bigotry, and feelings on the first post study. When you want to be literal it's usually best to highlight who you are aiming at.

How come you didn't know about these things? You want to combat racism but you seem to not know about the racism happening.

 

[TheLaughingStock]

I feel like people still aren't getting it, surprisingly (not really). Telling any minority, a Black person especially to be kinder to racist is akin to telling MLK Jr. that he didn't do enough during the civil rights era. We've had conversations since forever, and if a person won't recognize our humanity, then we owe them nothing.

The other thing about MLK is, white people didn't like him. Many white people today would not have supported MLK's message if they were born back then. They'd be making the excuse of he's divisive and he's doing too much and Black people have it good enough already. White people already had a victim complex when Black people were forced to sit in the back of the bus.

Pretty much in fact you may be coddling these shameful people a bit.

Vast majority of folks hated MLK & were shocked by the unexpected achievements by the overall movement. It's disgusting watching the same kinds of people who:

A. Wanted him to go away

B. Were perplexed and surprised at how and why he was effective

These people are in many ways worse than overt racists because they're cowards hiding how they feel and plus they put on a show for people of color.

 

[Slayven]

Like Jesse Williams said, if you don't want to fight thats cool. But don't tell others how to do it.

 

[Audioboxer]

I'm being told by people who claim to be allies to talk to or try to change people don't view me as a person. I am not going to give that any type of serious discussion.


How come you didn't know about these things? You want to combat racism but you seem to not know about the racism happening.

People saying that's how THEY do it is different from saying that is how YOU should do it Enzom21. Even for anyone who has told you directly what they think you should do, you can still reject their advice without snark.

How didn't I know that people defend those people? (the teacher) Of course I know that. I was addressing that poster just posting "teacher" as I presumed given it's posted in this topic he or she was snarkily suggesting that is what people in here think.

Like Jesse Williams said, if you don't want to fight thats cool. But don't tell others how to do it.

What about people who are fighting but may be trying different methods than you that are simply getting told "you're no ally, you're just an x"?

 

[Via Purifico]

None. Absolutely positively none.

By that same token however, nobody has done "enough" to combat the problems we as a country, as a world face.

No race, creed, color, religion, sexuality, nobody, not a single soul can say "Welp, I did my part, it's someone else's problem now." If that were the case, wouldn't we not even be having this conversation now? Have some done more than others? Absolutely. Is that fair? No. Does it change the reality? Not a bit. That said, it shouldn't be the responsibility of one group or another (again, draw the "lines" how you will) to do one single iota more than anyone else. It's not a minority problem. It's not a white problem. It's not an ally problem. It's just a fucking problem and saying "that's not my job" isn't going to do a damn thing to fix it.

As a corollary, I'll use my office as an example. There's 5 of us here with one collective job-- to help our client base and grow the business. Within my group here, I have the gamut of socioeconomic categories. Different generations, different races, different religions, different sexuality, different life experiences. My first order of business when I took over was to say "that's not my job" is a 1-way ticket out of my office. We're now the top performing unit in the company. But we're not perfect and we haven't done enough. Every single day we leave opportunity behind. We can never leave here and say "Welp, I did my part." So every day we'll continue to strive to do better than we did yesterday.

Blacks have been fighting for their rights for generations and are still told we aren't shit so excuse us for feeling exhausted.
I understand the sentiment but you need to look at other perspectives here and why minorities in general are tired af, we have done a lot to try and educate these racists and Trump still got elected.

It's not so simple about doing more, people need reassurance and backup and not placing all the work on minorities again.

 

[Enzom21]

People saying that's how THEY do it is different from saying that is how YOU should do it Enzom21. Even for anyone who has told you directly what they think you should do, you can still reject their advice without snark.

How didn't I know that people defend those people? Of course I know that. I was addressing that poster just posting teacher as I presumed given it's posted in this topic he or she was snarkily suggesting that is what people in here think.



What about people who are fighting but may be trying different methods than you that are simply getting told "you're no ally, you're just an x"?

Once again being told how I should be doing things.
Have you posted in the "White people must ask themselves "what am I *doing* to combat racism?" thread? Combating racism is important to you right?

 

[Audioboxer]

Once again being told how I should be doing things.
Have you posted in the "White people must ask themselves "what am I *doing* to combat racism?" thread? Combating racism is important to you right?

Nope, I said there is a difference between a poster sharing how they do things, and someone actually quoting you or directly addressing you and saying this is how you should do it Enzom21. If you cannot see a difference there then I'm sorry. People have many individual opinions on how they will tackle things in life that are not opinions on how anyone else needs to do something.

 

[Via Purifico]

Once again being told how I should be doing things.
Have you posted in the "White people must ask themselves "what am I *doing* to combat racism?" thread? Combating racism is important to you right?

I'm not going to speak for Audioboxer but for the rest of the thread it feels like this is only an issue when it comes to votes for the next election and not really making lives better.

The tone throughout this thread gives off that vibe.

 

[Breads]

Why didn't you post this in your post until I questioned you? This topic is largely about GAFers anecdotal evidence of ways in which they try to combat racism and bigotry, and feelings on the first post study. When you want to be literal it's usually best to highlight who you are aiming at.

Thanks for the help. I'll go ahead and reflect on that and try to be more understanding in the future.

 

[besada]

What about people who are fighting but may be trying different methods than you that are simply getting told "you're no ally, you're just an x"?

Can some of those people show us they're actually fighting, as opposed to arguing with PoC on a messageboard? Because as far as I can tell, none of the people talking about how great this idea is have ever tried it. You're from the UK, so I suspect you haven't spent much time in the deep south calmly explaining to racists why they shouldn't hate black people. I may be wrong, of course. You may be typing all this as you walk house to house, but I suspect not.

For as important as some people think this is, you'd think they'd go out and do it, instead of trying to convince PoC how to act toward racists.

 

[Enzom21]

Nope, I said there is a difference between a poster sharing how they do things, and someone actually quoting you or directly addressing you and saying this is how you should do it Enzom21. If you cannot see a difference there then I'm sorry. People have many individual opinions on how they will tackle things in life that are not opinions on how anyone else needs to do something.

No, like many in this thread you're more worried about how PoC are responding to people claiming to be our allies than the actual racism we are experiencing. No is stopping you from understanding and helping a racist stop being a racist, by the way. So have you been to the "White people must ask themselves "what am I *doing* to combat racism?" thread?

I'm not going to speak for Audioboxer but for the rest of the thread it feels like this is only an issue when it comes to votes for the next election and not really making lives better.

The tone throughout this thread gives off that vibe.

Well yeah it is about that. Yet there is no discussion about how the white people who didn't vote at caused this mess. Audioboxer even made a thread about how it was the low minority vote turnout that caused Clinton to lose.

 

[Slayven]

People saying that's how THEY do it is different from saying that is how YOU should do it Enzom21. Even for anyone who has told you directly what they think you should do, you can still reject their advice without snark.

How didn't I know that people defend those people? (the teacher) Of course I know that. I was addressing that poster just posting "teacher" as I presumed given it's posted in this topic he or she was snarkily suggesting that is what people in here think.



What about people who are fighting but may be trying different methods than you that are simply getting told "you're no ally, you're just an x"?

If you telling POC how they are doing ti wrong or what they should be doing more than you are doing your different methods then how much of an ally are you? No one wants a Starscream in their camp

 

[Audioboxer]

Can some of those people show us they're actually fighting, as opposed to arguing with PoC on a messageboard? Because as far as I can tell, none of the people talking about how great this idea is have ever tried it. You're from the UK, so I suspect you haven't spent much time in the deep south calmly explaining to racists why they shouldn't hate black people. I may be wrong, of course. You may be typing all this as you walk house to house, but I suspect not.

For as important as some people think this is, you'd think they'd go out and do it, instead of trying to convince PoC how to act toward racists.

That is why a lot of individual posts are individuals ancedotal evidence Besada. I don't see how telling me because of where I live I cannot play a part in a better future in my immediate surroundings? I'm not going about telling anyone anything of the sort in here.

All you are doing is highlighting why people speaking in absolutes and not allowing people individual agency to tackle things in various ways around the world gets pushback. I mean you have tried to shoot me down saying something you know I cannot answer for as I don't live in the deep south. Neither do a lot of people posting in here.

Again I've never tried to convince anyone of how to behave. Some others might have, but I haven't. All I'm arguing for is why can't there be a range of opinions that don't all need to 1:1 align or you're an "x"?

No, like many in this thread you're more worried about how PoC are responding to people claiming to be our allies than the actual racism we are experiencing. No is stopping you from understanding and helping a racist stop being a racist, by the way. So have you been to the "White people must ask themselves "what am I *doing* to combat racism?" thread?

If you telling POC how they are doing ti wrong or what they should be doing more than you are doing your different methods then how much of an ally are you? No one wants a Starscream in their camp

I'm not telling any of you how to do what you want. At worst I've asked why there is so much hostility to people in this topic who simply have their own personal opinions on how to tackle racism/bigotry.

 

[Slayven]

I'm not telling any of you how to do what you want. At worst I've asked why there is so much hostility to people in this topic who simply have their own personal opinions on how to tackle racism/bigotry.

If a person can't answer that for themselves, then I doubt they are ready to tackle racism.

This sentiment is not brand new, Nina Simone wrote a song about it in 1964, and I am sure if I looked I will probably find writings on it during the revolutionary war. "Be nice, wait" etc

 

[Ron Mexico]

Blacks have been fighting for their rights for generations and are still told we aren't shit so excuse us for feeling exhausted.
I understand the sentiment but you need to look at other perspectives here and why minorities in general are tired af, we have done a lot to try and educate these racists and Trump still got elected.

Not once will you ever hear me say that feelings of exhaustion aren't warranted. It's uphill. It's going to continue to be uphill. But it should be the same uphill for everyone which is my point.

Everybody can say "I'm tired af". Nobody gets to say "I'm tired af, so I quit." And to me, that ideal transcends these issues into everything we do as people. Hence the work corollary.

I hold myself accountable to the same standard and you know what? I've failed. I haven't done enough in my life. I still have loose ends. If I did enough, we wouldn't have the problems we do. I'm going to fail at it again today. Tomorrow? Doesn't look so good either. What I'm not going to do is stop. I know I'm just one person. But this one person is going to do everything I possibly can to better those around me. It's why I get up in the morning.

Again, just using work as an example-- I work for a credit union. My primary goal here is to educate. If I can make one member's financial picture better, maybe they have the means to do more for their kids than what they've had. Maybe those kids go on to touch more lives and so on and so forth. Is it enough? Fuck no. But it's not going to stop me from trying. Just one facet of life, but I promise you it's exhausting af.

 

[Enzom21]

That is why a lot of individual posts are individuals ancedotal evidence Besada. I don't see how telling me because of where I live I cannot play a part in a better future in my immediate surroundings? I'm not going about telling anyone anything of the sort in here.

All you are doing is highlighting why people speaking in absolutes and not allowing people individual agency to tackle things in various ways around the world gets pushback. I mean you have tried to shoot me down saying something you know I cannot answer for as I don't live in the deep south. Neither do a lot of people posting in here.

Again I've never tried to convince anyone of how to behave. Some others might have, but I haven't. All I'm arguing for is why can't there be a range of opinions that don't all need to 1:1 align or you're an "x"?





I'm not telling any of you how to do what you want. At worst I've asked why there is so much hostility to people in this topic who simply have their own personal opinions on how to tackle racism/bigotry.

Racism doesn't just exist in the deep south. What are you even talking about? I was choked and called a nigger in California, so this "deep south" bullshit is laughable.
That right there tells me you're not equipped to have a discussion about racism in this country.
And L O Fucking L at the "hostility" we are not being hostile we are exasperated by our "allies".

 

[4 is a cutie]

At worst I've asked why there is so much hostility to people in this topic who simply have their own personal opinions on how to tackle racism/bigotry.

Because alot of it sounds like a "you guys should do ____" instead of "I will personally do _____ while ya'll do what ya'll feel is appropriate for this situation"

 

[OniBarubary]

Almost all drastic social change has pretty much been forcing it on people and telling them "Tough shit" though. Sometimes (read: almost always) through violence.

I literally cannot think of a time that this country went through a major social change due to the oppressed sitting down and having polite conversation with people who don't give a fuck about them and want them to stay downtrodden and without rights/treated respectfully.

 

[besada]

That is why a lot of individual posts are individuals ancedotal evidence Besada. I don't see how telling me because of where I live I cannot play a part in a better future in my immediate surroundings? I'm not going about telling anyone anything of the sort in here.

All you are doing is highlighting why people speaking in absolutes and not allowing people individual agency to tackle things in various ways around the world gets pushback. I mean you have tried to shoot me down saying something you know I cannot answer for as I don't live in the deep south. Neither do a lot of people posting in here.

Again I've never tried to convince anyone of how to behave. Some others might have, but I haven't. All I'm arguing for is why can't there be a range of opinions that don't all need to 1:1 align or you're an "x"?

You don't have to live in the deep south to go there, audioboxer. And it doesn't have to be the deep south. Feel free to tell me about your many experiences converting racists anywhere. I'd be fascinated to hear them, as I DID grow up in the deep south, in the seventies, when you could hear the word "nigger" on any street at any time of day. I've been talking to racists my entire life, because I'm related to them and surrounded by them.

But you, you saw a Vox article with a sketchy study in it, and have spent the thread tut-tutting anyone who didn't agree that this was the most reasonable way to fight racism -- even though dozens of PoC have told you their experiences and how it doesn't work.

There can totally be a range of options. You can do whatever you want to do to fight racism. Hopefully you're doing something. But you've instead been arguing with PoC who clearly said they have no intention of doing this and that they aren't responsible for saving the souls of racists.

I literally said in my first post on this subject that there are a bunch of ways to approach the issue, and if people wan to go door to door to talk racists down, that's great. It's also okay if people think that's a waste of time. Particularly when they have a large number of experiences telling them it's a waste of time. Literally no one is stopping you from engaging in sweet reason with racists. Again, I look forward to the many people who support this idea hitting the streets and letting us know about their experiences. I'll gladly start and monitor a thread just for that purpose if anyone is actually going to do it. But as far as I can tell, it's just guys sitting around saying someone should be doing it and glancing slowly over at the PoC in the thread.

 

[Audioboxer]

Racism doesn't just exist in the deep south. What are you even talking about?
That right there tells me you're not equipped to have a discussion about racism in this country.
And L O Fucking L at the "hostility" we are not being hostile we are exasperate by our "allies".

See above...

You're from the UK, so I suspect you haven't spent much time in the deep south calmly explaining to racists why they shouldn't hate black people. I may be wrong, of course. You may be typing all this as you walk house to house, but I suspect not.

Because alot of it sounds like a "you guys should do ____" instead of "I will personally do _____ while ya'll do what ya'll feel is appropriate for this situation"

Okay I accept that. I understand why that feels shitty. When someone explains they are talking about how they do it, I don't see why at that point there is still a desire to tell them to "stop demanding how I do things", when they aren't. That's all I mean by misrepresenting some posters. Hardly anyone is actually demanding how others should do things.

You don't have to live in the deep south to go there, audioboxer. And it doesn't have to be the deep south. Feel free to tell me about your many experiences converting racists anywhere. I'd be fascinated to hear them, as I DID grow up in the deep south, in the seventies, when you could hear the word "nigger" on any street at any time of day. I've been talking to racists my entire life, because I'm related to them and surrounded by them.

But you, you saw a Vox article with a sketchy study in it, and have spent the thread tut-tutting anyone who didn't agree that this was the most reasonable way to fight racism -- even though dozens of PoC have told you their experiences and how it doesn't work.

There can totally be a range of options. You can do whatever you want to do to fight racism. Hopefully you're doing something. But you've instead been arguing with PoC who clearly said they have no intention of doing this and that they aren't responsible for saving the souls of racists.

Not at all. I'll make it clear, fight how you want (or have to, given no other choice), just have some belief that there is a diverse way to do things. I accept geography does change methods at times.

Fair enough. So what have you done to combat racism?

Politically? Vote for a party who supports diversity and equal rights and opportunities for all (The SNP). Obviously I'm a remain in the EU voter as well as I rejected the immigrant lead hate campaign.

Life anecdotes? Stand up for friends throughout school life who got bullied for being immigrants, or essentially non-white. Help all friends emotionally as I am basically training to be a shrink and for my whole personal life I've been kind, caring and non-judgmental.

Basically just be a nice and pleasant human, and on the few occasions people I know have been targeted stand up for them.

 

[Enzom21]

See above...





Okay I accept that. I understand why that feels shitty. When someone explains they are talking about how they do it, I don't see why at that point there is still a desire to tell them to "stop demanding how I do things", when they aren't. That's all I mean by misrepresenting some posters. Hardly anyone is actually demanding how others should do things.

Fair enough. So what have you done to combat racism? There has also been whole shitload of condescension from you and others.
Edit: It took a white person(besada) explaining things for Audioboxer to see what he has been doing in this thread... interesting.

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

Because Audioboxer... In some ways it's victim blaming. People have no problem with anyone in this thread expressing their opinion on what they think people should do....

... But it's not hard to understand that those very same people, have the right to push back against that ideal because they know from personal experience how that tried and true method has not worked for them and would like those very same people who are preaching these new approaches to do it themselves for a change and to stop coaching us as if we haven't done it before.

Its insulting. It feels like you aren't listening (not you specifically but for most people who have been restating it over and over again) We are being told to try this and try that when we have and weve seen first hand at what happens to us when we do. Some has gotten assassinated or killed and we are again back in the 2016 telling minorities and POC to try that again and it simply does not work... For US.

Let this study be an example of what YOU should be doing because this is something we have tried and it's not hard to see how upsetting it is to continue to be told that you aren't doing enough and YOU are the reason for the divide when we aren't. And it's worst being told by the people who are on your side that it's on us again to do this and not them... It's just fucked up.

 

[Via Purifico]

No, like many in this thread you're more worried about how PoC are responding to people claiming to be our allies than the actual racism we are experiencing. No is stopping you from understanding and helping a racist stop being a racist, by the way. So have you been to the "White people must ask themselves "what am I *doing* to combat racism?" thread?

Well yeah it is about that. Yet there is no discussion about how the white people who didn't vote at caused this mess. Audioboxer even made a thread about how it was the low minority vote turnout that caused Clinton to lose.

To be more specific. The core of the issue is about that but there is a lot of people being disingenuous about fighting racism when it's just about the democratic vote and how POC should do more despite already exhausting our resources. It feels very dishonest and it would be better if we skipped the pretenses and just outright say what you're thinking cause it's not about POC having a better life.

Not once will you ever hear me say that feelings of exhaustion aren't warranted. It's uphill. It's going to continue to be uphill. But it should be the same uphill for everyone which is my point.

Everybody can say "I'm tired af". Nobody gets to say "I'm tired af, so I quit." And to me, that ideal transcends these issues into everything we do as people. Hence the work corollary.

I hold myself accountable to the same standard and you know what? I've failed. I haven't done enough in my life. I still have loose ends. If I did enough, we wouldn't have the problems we do. I'm going to fail at it again today. Tomorrow? Doesn't look so good either. What I'm not going to do is stop. I know I'm just one person. But this one person is going to do everything I possibly can to better those around me. It's why I get up in the morning.

Again, just using work as an example-- I work for a credit union. My primary goal here is to educate. If I can make one member's financial picture better, maybe they have the means to do more for their kids than what they've had. Maybe those kids go on to touch more lives and so on and so forth. Is it enough? Fuck no. But it's not going to stop me from trying. Just one facet of life, but I promise you it's exhausting af.

I totally understand where you're coming from, but some people try to do all that they can and it never is enough so they give up. I wont give up despite tirelessly doing my part but at the same time I am not going to subject myself to blatant disrespect.

I will willingly talk to a racist within reason as long as they do not speak any inflammatory language and willing to hear another side. I have convinced at least two people but that's because they were willing to be challenged.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Wtf is going on in this thread , you're presented with evidence that one way of dealing with bigotry and racism doesn't work but no well ignore science too since it doesn't suit your views ? Seriously ?

lol @ "science"

This "evidence" has been scrutinized, and been found lacking. That's mostly why.

And as someone else said, even if it did work sometimes, it doesn't mean it's an acceptable solution. I like the "giving gifts to people will make you friends" analogy. Sure, it might (or not), but you probably want to make friends through other means...

You don't have to live in the deep south to go there, audioboxer. And it doesn't have to be the deep south. Feel free to tell me about your many experiences converting racists anywhere. I'd be fascinated to hear them, as I DID grow up in the deep south, in the seventies, when you could hear the word "nigger" on any street at any time of day. I've been talking to racists my entire life, because I'm related to them and surrounded by them.

But you, you saw a Vox article with a sketchy study in it, and have spent the thread tut-tutting anyone who didn't agree that this was the most reasonable way to fight racism -- even though dozens of PoC have told you their experiences and how it doesn't work.

There can totally be a range of options. You can do whatever you want to do to fight racism. Hopefully you're doing something. But you've instead been arguing with PoC who clearly said they have no intention of doing this and that they aren't responsible for saving the souls of racists.

I literally said in my first post on this subject that there are a bunch of ways to approach the issue, and if people wan to go door to door to talk racists down, that's great. It's also okay if people think that's a waste of time. Particularly when they have a large number of experiences telling them it's a waste of time. Literally no one is stopping you from engaging in sweet reason with racists. Again, I look forward to the many people who support this idea hitting the streets and letting us know about their experiences. I'll gladly start and monitor a thread just for that purpose if anyone is actually going to do it. But as far as I can tell, it's just guys sitting around saying someone should be doing it and glancing slowly over at the PoC in the thread.

Boom

 

[Macam]

As someone who also grew up in the deep south, albeit a short while later, I second everything besada just said.

If you need a guinea pig racist to try to covert, my dad is always available. Bonus points since he lives in the deep south.

 

[Ron Mexico]

I totally understand where you're coming from, but some people try to do all that they can and it never is enough so they give up. I wont give up despite tirelessly doing my part but at the same time I am not going to subject myself to blatant disrespect.

So here's where my school of thought isn't going to be terribly popular.

The giving up part loses me and I lose quite a bit of sympathy. And I've been there. I've wanted to give up plenty. And in some cases, I did give up. Doesn't make it ok. Doesn't make it right.

Hell, giving up on trying to fix the culture of the commercial banking world (and go figure, a culture that was never particularly friendly to minorities, the poor, etc so you can see how clearly these things tie in) was what led to my position now. But I never said I wasn't to blame. I couldn't change what I wanted to because I failed at it. Nobody else failed me. I failed me. So now I have another opportunity where I'm tirelessly going to do my best to achieve what I couldn't previously.

So don't ever subject yourself to blatant disrespect. And by the same token, don't ever let blatant disrespect be a reason to throw your hands up and say "I quit".

 

[Audioboxer]

Because Audioboxer... In some ways it's victim blaming. People have no problem with anyone in this thread expressing their opinion on what they think people should do....

... But it's not hard to understand that those very same people, have the right to push back against that ideal because they know from personal experience how that tried and true method has not worked for them and would like those very same people who are preaching these new approaches to do it themselves for a change and to stop coaching us as if we haven't done it before.

Its insulting. It feels like you aren't listening (not you specifically but for most people who have been restating it over and over again) We are being told to try this and try that when we have and weve seen first hand at what happens to us when we do. Some has gotten assassinated or killed and we are again back in the 2016 telling minorities and POC to try that again and it simply does not work... For US.

Let this study be an example of what YOU should be doing because this is something we have tried and it's not hard to see how upsetting it is to continue to be told that you aren't doing enough and YOU are the reason for the divide when we aren't. And it's worst being told by the people who are on your side that it's on us again to do this and not them... It's just fucked up.

I'll make it clear again because I know what I've tried to argue, and okay, maybe done poorly given some of these latest responses. I am not demanding or arguing any individual or group of individuals behave like this study or how I say. I am arguing the exact opposite of that. Everyone has individual agency and individual circumstances on which to draw from. When you literally try everything and fail how can someone not sympathise you're at the point of fuck this responsibility it's not mine? Heck people don't even need to try everything, I said it in here already the responsibility is solely on the oppressor to change. Victim blaming would be the precise act of saying it's up the oppressed to change or to find a way to change they who are oppressing them. I am not doing that and never would.

As I said to besada as well I know location can make all the difference. I'm not an idiot. Regardless of this study or any other methods cannot be 1:1 around the world. How can they? Some of the worst places in the world for discrimination and bigotry are probably better dealt with self defence classes than ANY sort of discussion. I've never not said that either, again I've argued against the one shoe fits all approach multiple times.

It's the precise reason why when people prod me with "well what are you doing" you're going to get a watered down experience from someone living in the UK from birth. Racism is everywhere, but yeah okay, a suburb in the UK and reasonably decent public Schools may well not be the same as armed right loonies in the South of America. No, I wouldn't advise going up to some of them and saying try and have a conversation about ignorance and tolerance of humans. You potentially would end up injured if not worse. The rise of hate crimes in the states due to Trump aren't exactly all emanating from the South either.

 

[Enzom21]

So here's where my school of thought isn't going to be terribly popular.

The giving up part loses me and I lose quite a bit of sympathy. And I've been there. I've wanted to give up plenty. And in some cases, I did give up. Doesn't make it ok. Doesn't make it right.

Hell, giving up on trying to fix the culture of the commercial banking world (and go figure, a culture that was never particularly friendly to minorities, the poor, etc so you can see how clearly these things tie in) was what led to my position now. But I never said I wasn't to blame. I couldn't change what I wanted to because I failed at it. Nobody else failed me. I failed me. So now I have another opportunity where I'm tirelessly going to do my best to achieve what I couldn't previously.

So don't ever subject yourself to blatant disrespect. And by the same token, don't ever let blatant disrespect be a reason to throw your hands up and say "I quit".

It's not giving if you don't want to help change a racist. I am not here to help white people become better people like some magical negro trope.
The message of change is better heard when it comes from someone who looks like them so white people are far more effective messengers but as Via Purifico pointed out, this thread really isn't about improving the life's of PoC, but no one is being honest about it.

A perfect example of this is Audioboxer(I'm not calling or implying you're a racist in anyway). He changed how he was responding to people in this thread as soon as besada(a white person) explained things, things that PoC have been saying in this thread the whole time.

 

[call_kotaku]

Politically? Vote for a party who supports diversity and equal rights and opportunities for all (The SNP). Obviously I'm a remain in the EU voter as well as I rejected the immigrant lead hate campaign.

Just speaking from the context of Brexit and the political situation in Britain: while you seem to be convinced that the left failed by attacking itself and others too vigorously, could you entertain the idea that the whole thing was decades in the making because people weren't active about calling out the xenophobia in the right wing? At some point the Daily Mail writes enough crazy cover headlines that crazy became the new normal, and "send all the immigrants home" ended up as a mainstream political ideal instead of an outlandish fringe thing that would be scandalous to say.

That's what all of us are trying to say is wrong about the thesis of the article, or more importantly what all the moderate white people are trying to reason as the conclusion. If you accept something just because enough people believe it, then it becomes normal, and if you do that often enough you can get pretty far with it. Slavery was "normal", segregation was "normal", the Holocaust was "normal". Police brutality, drone warfare, mass shootings... all of that stuff became normal. That's why "this is reality, deal with it" is such a shitty thing to say to PoC (and what people essentially repeat ad naseum in this thread), because there's a difference between what is happening and what you accept as regular. If we stop treating Trump supporters as in league with racists, or stop calling out the racism that absolutely was a pillar of his campaign, we are just saying "it's legitimate because it was successful", and then all of a sudden it stops being shocking when he starts a registry of Muslims or starts appointing white nationalists.

Slavery and segregation only stopped because white people got confronted with their bigotry often enough that it stopped seeming normal, not because black people were patient enough that they managed to "wait it out" with kind words and empathy.

 

[Audioboxer]

A perfect example of this is Audioboxer(I'm not calling or implying you're a racist in anyway). He changed how he was responding to people in this thread as soon as besada(a white person) explained things, things that PoC have been saying in this thread the whole time.

Well as much as I think besada has a scary avatar, and would kick my ass, I actually challenged if not disagreed with his responses to me. At least parts of them. I agree on remarks around location and what he said about a range of options.

Just speaking from the context of Brexit and the political situation in Britain: while you seem to be convinced that the left failed by attacking itself and others too vigorously, could you entertain the idea that the whole thing was decades in the making because people weren't active about calling out the xenophobia in the right wing? At some point the Daily Mail writes enough crazy cover headlines that crazy became the new normal, and "send all the immigrants home" ended up as a mainstream political ideal instead of an outlandish fringe thing that would be scandalous to say.

That's what all of us are trying to say is wrong about the thesis of the article, or more importantly what all the moderate white people are trying to reason as the conclusion. If you accept something just because enough people believe it, then it becomes normal, and if you do that often enough you can get pretty far with it. Slavery was "normal", segregation was "normal", the Holocaust was "normal". Police brutality, drone warfare, mass shootings... all of that stuff became normal. That's why "this is reality, deal with it" is such a shitty thing to say to PoC (and what people essentially repeat ad naseum in this thread), because there's a difference between what is happening and what you accept as regular. If we stop treating Trump supporters as in league with racists, or stop calling out the racism that absolutely was a pillar of his campaign, we are just saying "it's legitimate because it was successful", and then all of a sudden it stops being shocking when he starts a registry of Muslims or starts appointing white nationalists.

Slavery and segregation only stopped because white people got confronted with their bigotry often enough that it stopped seeming normal, not because black people were patient enough that they managed to "wait it out" with kind words and empathy.

Absolutely, 1000%. Brexit had open displays of bigotry and racism on the freaking news, and from the likes of Farage. Just as America had Trump going around saying things all displayed live if not on the news. It empowered tons of nasty people, and that is seen in spiking hate crimes and celebrations of intolerance in peoples faces.

The left is never to blame for the assholes and nasties in the world on the right. That is essentially blanket victim blaming. Or I should say liberals aren't to blame, as the left can have some crazy people on it as well (when you go faaaar left). My attacks on the left are more so about why people are leaving the left, or becoming disenfranchised due to some of the hostility that attacks them in my eyes, unjustly. I've always said it's just my opinion, but at the end of the day people are going to speculate on why in the UK and now the US the liberals either didn't turn out to vote, or failed to amass enough of the vote. To be liberal is suppose to try and inspect a whole load of opinions in search for truth. In relation to this topic that truth for me is recognising that not everyone approaches this topic in the same way and that isn't inherently wrong, or worth shaming for. There is many different reasons including location/geography why an individual may tackle intolerance in a certain way. Heck, right down to personality. I tried to anecdotally show due to my chosen career path I am going to potentially end up interacting with heinous displays of discrimination if not violence/murder. I am purposefully choosing that as I feel fit for such a role, but that's essentially my point, individuals with individual agency may all try different things. Allies can be people who don't think 1:1 as you do.

 

[ExVicis]

Been arguing the same since the end of the election.

This isn't the way to change things. It only makes people back into a corner and hunker down.

I know I've been out there saying the same things as you after election But people get mad if you say that it seems. Apparently doing that enables them or emboldens them, how I'm not sure but according to everyone it does.

Yet it seems calling people racist hasn't changed their behavior so I really wonder what the overall plan to fight racism is. I always thought it was education but that seems to be too hard for people.

 

[Ron Mexico]

It's not giving if you don't want to help change a racist. I am not here to help white people become better people like some magical negro trope.
The message of change is better heard when it comes from someone who looks like them so white people are far more effective messengers but as Via Purifico pointed out, this thread really isn't about improving the life's of PoC, but no one is being honest about it.

With all due respect, I'm going to push back some here. Nobody is (at least I certainly hope) asking you to be some kind of trope. To suggest that is to miss my point altogether. Our work isn't done. Not yours, not mine, not anyone's. Nor have any of us come close to doing enough. The world is still fucked.

To suggest somehow that one group is more equipped or should handle more of a burden is farcical to me though admittedly I think we're looking at things from a micro vs. a macro perspective. On the micro side, I'm not advocating you sitting down trying to explain to a racist, to a bigot, to a sexist, to whatever how that one specific person is wrong in their ways and here's the XYZ of how. That's folly. What I do expect is for you (and for me, and for whomever) to make a concerted effort to do more to help those we can today than we did yesterday. Do more in your community. Do more for each other. Something. Anything. Then do more of it tomorrow.

On a macro level, if we do more towards the greater good, we all stand to benefit. I just think we're collectively hung up on the small picture and completely miss the bigger one. It's much easier to say "I shouldn't be responsible for doing x and here's why" than to say "I should be responsible for y and here's the impact it will make."

Again, since I'm not really all that good at articulating this better, I'll use my work as an example. My client base is predominately low-to-moderate income and predominately comprised of minorities. When I sit down with someone, I don't offer suggestions and advice thinking to myself "I'm going to really give this my best because this person in front of me is a (minority, poor, underserved, whatever). I offer this person advice because it's just the right fucking thing to do and I care about that on a deeper level and by proxy of knowing my client base is what it is, I can take some solace in knowing I've done my best to make inroads in communities that would otherwise be forgotten.

So yeah, maybe it does stray from the direct message of improving the lives of PoC and into the realm of improving the lives of those we touch. But is that inherently wrong?

 

[Darryl M R]

With all due respect, I'm going to push back some here. Nobody is (at least I certainly hope) asking you to be some kind of trope. To suggest that is to miss my point altogether. Our work isn't done. Not yours, not mine, not anyone's. Nor have any of us come close to doing enough. The world is still fucked.

To suggest somehow that one group is more equipped or should handle more of a burden is farcical to me though admittedly I think we're looking at things from a micro vs. a macro perspective. On the micro side, I'm not advocating you sitting down trying to explain to a racist, to a bigot, to a sexist, to whatever how that one specific person is wrong in their ways and here's the XYZ of how. That's folly. What I do expect is for you (and for me, and for whomever) to make a concerted effort to do more to help those we can today than we did yesterday. Do more in your community. Do more for each other. Something. Anything. Then do more of it tomorrow.

On a macro level, if we do more towards the greater good, we all stand to benefit. I just think we're collectively hung up on the small picture and completely miss the bigger one. It's much easier to say "I shouldn't be responsible for doing x and here's why" than to say "I should be responsible for y and here's the impact it will make."

Again, since I'm not really all that good at articulating this better, I'll use my work as an example. My client base is predominately low-to-moderate income and predominately comprised of minorities. When I sit down with someone, I don't offer suggestions and advice thinking to myself "I'm going to really give this my best because this person in front of me is a (minority, poor, underserved, whatever). I offer this person advice because it's just the right fucking thing to do and I care about that on a deeper level and by proxy of knowing my client base is what it is, I can take some solace in knowing I've done my best to make inroads in communities that would otherwise be forgotten.

So yeah, maybe it does stray from the direct message of improving the lives of PoC and into the realm of improving the lives of those we touch. But is that inherently wrong?

yes.
We are only concerned about this now because people realized racists can vote in mass. Creating a culture where we only care about change when it affects those not oppressed is inherently wrong.

Until the election racism was a micro issue. POC dealt with racism. Now it is a macro issue because people see value in having these people change their ways (and vote for Dem).

So now people of color are hearing macro suggestions that when implemented at the micro level has not worked for them.

 

[Ron Mexico]

yes. Creating a culture where we only care about change when it affects those not oppressed is inherently wrong.

Ok, so either you misread me or I didn't express myself well enough.

The whole point I was trying to make is we need to do more to change those who are oppressed (for whatever the reason-- skin color, sexuality, religion, take your pick) through our daily lives and our actions. I've dedicated my damn career to it and that's just one facet--the easiest one for me to write about. To making a difference in the community I serve. Am I the best at it? Nope. Do I make mistakes daily? You're absolutely correct I do. I leave opportunity on the table every single day. Ideally, I don't want to, but I know I do. So today, I'm trying to do better than I did yesterday. Tomorrow, I'll try again.

What I won't do however, is act just so I can check the mental box and say "I did my part."

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Just speaking from the context of Brexit and the political situation in Britain: while you seem to be convinced that the left failed by attacking itself and others too vigorously, could you entertain the idea that the whole thing was decades in the making because people weren't active about calling out the xenophobia in the right wing? At some point the Daily Mail writes enough crazy cover headlines that crazy became the new normal, and "send all the immigrants home" ended up as a mainstream political ideal instead of an outlandish fringe thing that would be scandalous to say.

That's what all of us are trying to say is wrong about the thesis of the article, or more importantly what all the moderate white people are trying to reason as the conclusion. If you accept something just because enough people believe it, then it becomes normal, and if you do that often enough you can get pretty far with it. Slavery was "normal", segregation was "normal", the Holocaust was "normal". Police brutality, drone warfare, mass shootings... all of that stuff became normal. That's why "this is reality, deal with it" is such a shitty thing to say to PoC (and what people essentially repeat ad naseum in this thread), because there's a difference between what is happening and what you accept as regular. If we stop treating Trump supporters as in league with racists, or stop calling out the racism that absolutely was a pillar of his campaign, we are just saying "it's legitimate because it was successful", and then all of a sudden it stops being shocking when he starts a registry of Muslims or starts appointing white nationalists.

Slavery and segregation only stopped because white people got confronted with their bigotry often enough that it stopped seeming normal, not because black people were patient enough that they managed to "wait it out" with kind words and empathy.

Great post.

Almost all drastic social change has pretty much been forcing it on people and telling them "Tough shit" though. Sometimes (read: almost always) through violence.

I literally cannot think of a time that this country went through a major social change due to the oppressed sitting down and having polite conversation with people who don't give a fuck about them and want them to stay downtrodden and without rights/treated respectfully.

Great post here, too.

People suggest passive or harmless solutions because they're primarily concerned with their own continuing comfort and having their life stay in order. They don't actually give a fuck about change, and they don't know any real history.

 

[Darryl M R]

Ok, so either you misread me or I didn't express myself well enough.

The whole point I was trying to make is we need to do more to change those who are oppressed (for whatever the reason-- skin color, sexuality, religion, take your pick) through our daily lives and our actions. I've dedicated my damn career to it and that's just one facet--the easiest one for me to write about. To making a difference in the community I serve. Am I the best at it? Nope. Do I make mistakes daily? You're absolutely correct I do. I leave opportunity on the table every single day. Ideally, I don't want to, but I know I do. So today, I'm trying to do better than I did yesterday. Tomorrow, I'll try again.

What I won't do however, is act just so I can check the mental box and say "I did my part."

So yeah, maybe it does stray from the direct message of improving the lives of PoC and into the realm of improving the lives of those we touch. But is that inherently wrong?

Once again. You stated that we should solve an issue for the greater good. No we should solve the issue because people of color experience racism. Your new post goes against what you said earlier so I'll accept that you did not word it correctly.

But your wording error is others intention. Ending racism for the greater good. Not because people of color are oppressed.

This is not genuine because the moment racism is no longer in someone's face they forget about it. But for people of color we do not get to pretend like it doesn't exist.

People are acting like racism just got back in style. Racism has always been here people just stopped caring.