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[call_kotaku]

Well as much as I think besada has a scary avatar, and would kick my ass, I actually challenged if not disagreed with his responses to me. At least parts of them. I agree on remarks around location and what he said about a range of options.



Absolutely, 1000%. Brexit had open displays of bigotry and racism on the freaking news, and from the likes of Farage. Just as America had Trump going around saying things all displayed live if not on the news. It empowered tons of nasty people, and that is seen in spiking hate crimes and celebrations of intolerance in peoples faces.

The left is never to blame for the assholes and nasties in the world on the right. That is essentially blanket victim blaming. Or I should say liberals aren't to blame, as the left can have some crazy people on it as well (when you go faaaar left). My attacks on the left are more so about why people are leaving the left, or becoming disenfranchised due to some of the hostility that attacks them in my eyes, unjustly. I've always said it's just my opinion, but at the end of the day people are going to speculate on why in the UK and now the US the liberals either didn't turn out to vote, or failed to amass enough of the vote. To be liberal is suppose to try and inspect a whole load of opinions in search for truth. In relation to this topic that truth for me is recognising that not everyone approaches this topic in the same way and that isn't inherently wrong, or worth shaming for. There is many different reasons including location/geography why an individual may tackle intolerance in a certain way. Heck, right down to personality. I tried to anecdotally show due to my chosen career path I am going to potentially end up interacting with heinous displays of discrimination if not violence/murder. I am purposefully choosing that as I feel fit for such a role, but that's essentially my point, individuals with individual agency may all try different things. Allies can be people who don't think 1:1 as you do.

The point is that "treating racists with humanity" ends up meaning "act like they have a reasonable argument" regardless of your intentions, and that directly undermines the work that activists and civil rights advocates are putting in. In that case, you aren't an ally, even if you think you are, because you are actively working against the people you are trying to help even if you want to believe that you are doing the right thing.

The left isn't driving those people away, those people went away when things finally got urgent and we asked them to either do something or stop holding us back. It's not helpful when people who are our "allies" undermine us and snipe at us from the sidelines while happily reinforcing the idea that the people who really give a shit do it because we want to be smug and superior. I don't understand how the response to "please stop asking us to choose because we'll definitely choose not to support you" is anything other than "so you weren't ever going to support us in the first place?". That's why moderates get such a mad rap, because they think their cheerleading during the off-years makes up for them basically agreeing with conservatives that liberals are all crazy once things actually matter.

That's exactly what you're doing when you, regardless of your intent, come into these threads just to drop a "I support you people but all opinions matter and wow leftists amirite". It reads as nothing but passive aggressive attempts at undermining the urgency of people's need for action and support, and I hope you understand why people get mad at that.

 

[Audioboxer]

The point is that "treating racists with humanity" ends up meaning "act like they have a reasonable argument" regardless of your intentions, and that directly undermines the work that activists and civil rights advocates are putting in. In that case, you aren't an ally, even if you think you are, because you are actively working against the people you are trying to help even if you want to believe that you are doing the right thing.

The left isn't driving those people away, those people went away when things finally got urgent and we asked them to either do something or stop holding us back. It's not helpful when people who are our "allies" undermine us and snipe at us from the sidelines while happily reinforcing the idea that the people who really give a shit do it because we want to be smug and superior. I don't understand how the response to "please stop asking us to choose because we'll definitely choose not to support you" is anything other than "so you weren't ever going to support us in the first place?". That's why moderates get such a mad rap, because they think their cheerleading during the off-years makes up for them basically agreeing with conservatives that liberals are all crazy once things actually matter.

That's exactly what you're doing when you, regardless of your intent, come into these threads just to drop a "I support you people but all opinions matter and wow leftists amirite". It reads as nothing but passive aggressive attempts at undermining the urgency of people's need for action and support, and I hope you understand why people get mad at that.

I don't know how that leap is made 100% of the time. Who says on mass racists have reasonable arguments? The closest I've seen to that is people saying voters voted republican for reasons other than Donald Trump. I guess if you can't get over that stumbling block, okay, but I've already used the example of the Bible belt voters. A lot of them discriminate as it is, against women and body rights, but they are ideologically indoctrinated and the reason for voting republican is not Trump. I've personally said anecdotally given the republican numbers, a vast amount of these people vote red and would vote red regardless of Trump. A lot of them for nefarious means as it is, like anti-abortion, anti-climate change and pro-creationism. To me that is taking nuance to explain behaviours within 60m voters, not saying they have some reasonable argument. Of course I don't think the arguments are reasonable, I'm pro-Science and liberal around human rights and what you want to do in your bedroom. This is why since the election was lost a lot are turning to the liberal camp, as it is this side that has bled like 10m voters since Obama in 2008. Republicans have hit around the same number since then. The "10m voters dropped" are not 10m who swung to the right, and republicans.

That is fundamentally where we may have a disagreement on why I think some are becoming disenfranchised with calling themselves as lefties or liberals. I'm not going to tell you you are wrong though, or be snarky towards you. I accept you have reasons behind thinking the way you do and that's good enough. I actually accept it's why some might be running away, but not everyone. When you are talking about numbers of people in the millions I think it can be quite careless to try and group them all into one answer. Even the attacks I aim at the left are to a very small but vocal base. The ones who genuinely do not accept ANY opinion other than their own and do act insanely vicious to the idea of even holding a debate or argument. To me that infringes on what it means to try and be liberal, hence, I see it as a negative when debate unjustly gets stifled, or people shut down just for trying to be part of a debate. It is ironically how indoctrinated religious people act when they don't want their beliefs or opinions to be challenged. Hence why you see a shit ton of that behaviour on the right and it IS pointless trying to talk to them.

That isn't how I post though (the way you've just characterised me), so while I can understand someone getting mad at "I support you people but all opinions matter and wow leftists amirite", that's precisely because it's snarky dismissal. I post passionately at times, but very rarely do I swear at people, call them out directly or post one-liners. Most of my thoughts are walls of text, for better or worse. To make it clear again I also don't go around demanding people think like I do either, so even when you disagree with me the worst you'll get is me try and defend why I feel how I do. Not anger you won't adopt to my way of thinking.

Look at it this way. Brexit was voting on a single issue, it was entirely possible to be a conservative and vote leave, and a conservative and vote remain. While political parties made their allegiances in the UK, as an actual voter you could be of any party and vote differently from someone else and it wasn't giving a vote to an opposition political party. For a general election whoever the leader of your party is, is the leader. The only option you have is to abstain voting if you are a diehard rightist or leftist. We can argue that is what some of the left have seemed to do, but even then others didn't like Hillary but still gave her the vote due to supporting the Dems (and not wanting Trump). Same happens on the right though, believe it or not. It just seems the right proved even if an all out asshole is their leader some will give zero fucks and still vote red ~ My friends in the Bible belt somewhat of an example.

 

[SURGEdude]

If this thread is representative of the unity on the center and left we are well and truly fucked.

 

[call_kotaku]

I don't know how that leap is made 100% of the time. Who says on mass racists have reasonable arguments? The closest I've seen to that is people saying voters voted republican for reasons other than Donald Trump. I guess if you can't get over that stumbling block, okay, but I've already used the example of the Bible belt voters. A lot of them discriminate as it is, against women and body rights, but they are ideologically indoctrinated and the reason for voting republican is not Trump. I've personally said anecdotally given the republican numbers, a vast amount of these people vote red and would vote red regardless of Trump. A lot of them for nefarious means as it is, like anti-abortion, anti-climate change and pro-creationism. To me that is taking nuance to explain behaviours within 60m voters, not saying they have some reasonable argument. Of course I don't think the arguments are reasonable, I'm pro-Science and liberal around human rights and what you want to do in your bedroom. This is why since the election was lost a lot are turning to the liberal camp, as it is this side that has bled like 10m voters since Obama in 2008. Republicans have hit around the same number since then. The "10m voters dropped" are not 10m who swung to the right, and republicans.

Do you understand why those people can continue to have those views which are completely outlandish by any reasonable standard? Do you understand how people in the past supported even more outlandish things like slavery or the holocaust? It's because their world view is constantly being reinforced, and because "reasonable" voices are willing to help them do it, not just Fox News and Breitbart. This is how Donald Trump got elected, not because 25% of America is just as racist as he and his platform is, but because his platform got normalized by people who need to find wisdom in inaction. When you put him on a debate stage with the rest of the Republican candidates, and cover him as if he were a serious contender with actual views, you legitimize him to Republican voters. When you put him on a debate stage with Hillary Clinton and cover him as if he were a serious contender with actual views, you legitimize him to America. When you see him win and therefore treat him as just a regular elected official and treat white supremacy as a legitimate campaign platform, you legitimize him to history.

He got here precisely because not enough people were willing to call him by what he really was, because they were desperate not to have to do something to stop him. Now because the Left predicted all of this decades ago we get blamed for causing it because we were the only people talking about it. Because confronting "smug liberals" is easier than actually confronting racism, as this thread demonstrates.

It's how the right and the establishment always manipulate you, but you guys never realize it. When you name something alt-right it means it's just a legitimate part of the conservative party, not literal nazis. When you name something white nationalism it sounds reasonable because black people have their advocacy groups so why can't white people. When you name something men's rights it seems okay because women's rights are always talked about. Right wing extremists are always manipulating moderates further right by normalizing fringe views, but the left wing gets blamed for being overly pushy because we have the decency to treat you like people instead of idiots.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Do you understand why those people can continue to have those views which are completely outlandish by any reasonable standard? Do you understand how people in the past supported even more outlandish things like slavery or the holocaust? It's because their world view is constantly being reinforced, and because "reasonable" voices are willing to help them do it, not just Fox News and Breitbart. This is how Donald Trump got elected, not because 25% of America is just as racist as he and his platform is, but because his platform got normalized by people who need to find wisdom in inaction. When you put him on a debate stage with the rest of the Republican candidates, and cover him as if he were a serious contender with actual views, you legitimize him to Republican voters. When you put him on a debate stage with Hillary Clinton and cover him as if he were a serious contender with actual views, you legitimize him to America. When you see him win and therefore treat him as just a regular elected official and treat white supremacy as a legitimate campaign platform, you legitimize him to history.

He got here precisely because not enough people were willing to call him by what he really was, because they were desperate not to have to do something to stop him. Now because the Left predicted all of this decades ago we get blamed for causing it because we were the only people talking about it. Because confronting "smug liberals" is easier than actually confronting racism, as this thread demonstrates.

It's how the right and the establishment always manipulate you, but you guys never realize it. When you name something alt-right it means it's just a legitimate part of the conservative party, not literal nazis. When you name something white nationalism it sounds reasonable because black people have their advocacy groups so why can't white people. When you name something men's rights it seems okay because women's rights are always talked about. Right wing extremists are always manipulating moderates further right by normalizing fringe views, but the left wing gets blamed for being overly pushy because we have the decency to treat you like people instead of idiots.

call_kotaku's posts today have been a goddamn treasure in this hell of a thread.

 

[Audioboxer]

Do you understand why those people can continue to have those views which are completely outlandish by any reasonable standard? Do you understand how people in the past supported even more outlandish things like slavery or the holocaust? It's because their world view is constantly being reinforced, and because "reasonable" voices are willing to help them do it, not just Fox News and Breitbart. This is how Donald Trump got elected, not because 25% of America is just as racist as he and his platform is, but because his platform got normalized by people who need to find wisdom in inaction. When you put him on a debate stage with the rest of the Republican candidates, and cover him as if he were a serious contender with actual views, you legitimize him to Republican voters. When you put him on a debate stage with Hillary Clinton and cover him as if he were a serious contender with actual views, you legitimize him to America. When you see him win and therefore treat him as just a regular elected official and treat white supremacy as a legitimate campaign platform, you legitimize him to history.

He got here precisely because not enough people were willing to call him by what he really was, because they were desperate not to have to do something to stop him. Now because the Left predicted all of this decades ago we get blamed for causing it because we were the only people talking about it. Because confronting "smug liberals" is easier than actually confronting racism, as this thread demonstrates.

It's how the right and the establishment always manipulate you, but you guys never realize it. When you name something alt-right it means it's just a legitimate part of the conservative party, not literal nazis. When you name something white nationalism it sounds reasonable because black people have their advocacy groups so why can't white people. When you name something men's rights it seems okay because women's rights are always talked about. Right wing extremists are always manipulating moderates further right by normalizing fringe views, but the left wing gets blamed for being overly pushy because we have the decency to treat you like people instead of idiots.

Well, religion is what it is. When you have people believe a book is the word of God, you get people believing in and saying absolutely ridiculous things. Many will die not wavering a single belief to the face of science (or reason). Such indoctrination is often fed by fear and authoritarianism. God if not your family will punish you for not believing and conforming, whether you like it or not. So yeah I understand. The same indoctrination tactics are seen with general bigotry and discrimination. Strident teachings and militant reinforcement from childhood into adulthood, and then often hanging around with groups of people who think the same way as you. Look at anti-semitism in middle Eastern countries because it's widely taught, by force and demand, that the Jews are lesser people, and in many cases deserve death. Such tactics are used worldwide to indoctrinate, control and target hate/violence at other minorities.

That is precisely why it's so damn difficult to attempt to change some of these peoples ways and yes, why I don't tell PoC who say fuck them, I'm done, they're wrong. I made it clear what I argued was others try things in different ways, and even if that is solely because they face "diet racism" and not deep South I'm going to fire a shotgun racism, it doesn't mean they aren't an ally. They are literally still doing what they can to face and tackle unfair beliefs and actions aimed at fellow humans. We aren't all born on the same patch of land and into the same city. I get that. Life isn't fair in that way, many have it 10x worse than you do. Whether it's due to surroundings or the people they've unfortunately been plumped right into the middle of.

Again, I don't disagree with that last paragraph. I know what the right wing and many of it's followers do. I do realize it because I don't fall for it, don't believe it and reject attempts to indoctrinate me. I shed my parents instilled religious belief system. I know what I stand for and believe in, I just have the opinion trying to bring more people to a place of enlightenment is tackled in many different ways. And at times it cannot be tackled and sadly many will go to their grave being assholes.

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

Do you understand why those people can continue to have those views which are completely outlandish by any reasonable standard? Do you understand how people in the past supported even more outlandish things like slavery or the holocaust? It's because their world view is constantly being reinforced, and because "reasonable" voices are willing to help them do it, not just Fox News and Breitbart. This is how Donald Trump got elected, not because 25% of America is just as racist as he and his platform is, but because his platform got normalized by people who need to find wisdom in inaction. When you put him on a debate stage with the rest of the Republican candidates, and cover him as if he were a serious contender with actual views, you legitimize him to Republican voters. When you put him on a debate stage with Hillary Clinton and cover him as if he were a serious contender with actual views, you legitimize him to America. When you see him win and therefore treat him as just a regular elected official and treat white supremacy as a legitimate campaign platform, you legitimize him to history.

He got here precisely because not enough people were willing to call him by what he really was, because they were desperate not to have to do something to stop him. Now because the Left predicted all of this decades ago we get blamed for causing it because we were the only people talking about it. Because confronting "smug liberals" is easier than actually confronting racism, as this thread demonstrates.

It's how the right and the establishment always manipulate you, but you guys never realize it. When you name something alt-right it means it's just a legitimate part of the conservative party, not literal nazis. When you name something white nationalism it sounds reasonable because black people have their advocacy groups so why can't white people. When you name something men's rights it seems okay because women's rights are always talked about. Right wing extremists are always manipulating moderates further right by normalizing fringe views, but the left wing gets blamed for being overly pushy because we have the decency to treat you like people instead of idiots.

Thank you.

And also, it's incredible to see people in this thread claim that calling someone racist is "name-calling."

"Name-calling: abusive language or insults."

Calling someone a racist is not abusive language nor an insult. It is the definition for what they say and do.

Go have your sensible conversations with white trash idiots and tell them how much you care about their problems and that you don't believe they're actually racist. They'll say, "Finally, you admit it" and become even worse.

 

[call_kotaku]

Well, religion is what it is. When you have people believe a book is the word of God, you get people believing in and saying absolutely ridiculous things. Many will die not wavering a single belief to the face of science (or reason). Such indoctrination is often fed by fear and authoritarianism. God if not your family will punish you for not believing and conforming, whether you like it or not. So yeah I understand. The same indoctrination tactics are seen with general bigotry and discrimination. Strident teachings and militant reinforcement from childhood into adulthood, and then often hanging around with groups of people who think the same way as you.

That is precisely why it's so damn difficult to attempt to change some of these peoples ways and yes, why I don't tell PoC who say fuck them, I'm done, they're wrong. I made it clear what I argued was others try things in different ways, and even if that is solely because they face "diet racism" and not deep South I'm going to fire a shotgun racism, it doesn't mean they aren't an ally. They are literally still doing what they can to face and tackle unfair beliefs and actions aimed at fellow humans. We aren't all born on the same patch of land and into the same city. I get that. Life isn't fair in that way, many have it 10x worse than you do. Whether it's due to surroundings or the people they've unfortunately been plumped right into the middle of.

Again, I don't disagree with that last paragraph. I know what the right wing and many of it's followers do. I do realize it because I don't fall for it, don't believe it and reject attempts to indoctrinate me. I shed my parents instilled religious belief system. I know what I stand for and believe in, I just have the opinion trying to bring more people to a place of enlightenment is tackled in many different ways. And at times it cannot be tackled and sadly many will go to their grave being assholes.

But that's PRECISELY the lie they told you and that you continue to believe. That religion made people cruel and that it has always made them cruel. That black communities are poor and have always been poor (and always will be poor). That the uniformity of middle and suburban American is purely an economic outcome. That bigots believe what they do because they're stupid and don't know any better.

People made these sorts of things happen, and "good" people supported them because it seemed reasonable and reasonable is easy. None of this shit just "happened". The only way to fix it is to identify, address, and confront it, not to let it sit there and wait for people to come to their senses while literal nazis continue to manipulate them.

 

[Audioboxer]

But that's PRECISELY the lie they told you and that you continue to believe. That religion made people cruel and that it has always made them cruel. That black communities are poor and have always been poor (and always will be poor). That the uniformity of middle and suburban American is purely an economic outcome. That bigots believe what they do because they're stupid and don't know any better.

People made these sorts of things happen, and "good" people supported them because it seemed reasonable and reasonable is easy. None of this shit just "happened". The only way to fix it is to identify, address, and confront it, not to let it sit there and wait for people to come to their senses while literal nazis continue to manipulate them.

I don't believe that? Or at least not as flippantly as you have just put it. I was pointing out I know how indoctrination works. Indoctrination is usually based around a belief system of some sorts, often it is religion. It doesn't have to be though, children and young adults can be indoctrinated in many ways. The brain goes through a stage of absorbing and growing when you are younger and you haven't fully developed. In saying that though indoctrination isn't just about age, it can happen in insular environments or communities where you don't get your beliefs challenged and don't get taught about the world at large. Look at some of the madness that happens in Korea when the internet and news are controlled and people cannot experience any other viewpoints. It is sadly a powerful "tool" used in nefarious ways in order to control and influence individuals and their ways of thinking. It is not an excuse, it is simply a reality, and lots of people who need to be recovered from dangerous and oppressive ways of thinking need a ton of shit their mind has stored as data to effectively be re-written.

There are others who know best and are still absolute assholes. It's individual agency, education doesn't cure all. Many simply want to abuse, attack, and violate others because they are not decent, kind or caring people. They never will be either, or at least there's such a small chance of it. That is the sad and harrowing side to humanity.

Usually THESE are the people that are lost causes. Often ignorance and hate fuelled by religion can be worked on. It's not fucking easy though, precisely because those you might have a chance with are those who are probably brainwashed via some sort of indoctrination. It can be done though, and obviously humans are on scales of severity. Not everyone you try to change is as far gone as someone else. Some people will and can be changed. 99% of bystanders will hope it is on their own that they change, but sadly as it often goes in life some people need to spend far more personal time and energy than they ever should, trying to change someone else, and often failing.

That is precisely what I and some others argue. Not that you can't call racism racism, but when it gets down to tackling it, no, not every situation is a curb stomping Neo Nazi. Some people we call out in our lives use slurs and offensive language which is a lot easier to try and put an end to and re-educate than someone who is part of a violent hate gang. No, I probably wouldn't want to go and try to talk to violent skinheads myself (nor would I then wish a minority member has to try that), but I'll sure try and talk to and correct friends/non-violent people saying troubling words and language. I get that, it's not about being a pussy or running away, but trying not to get yourself killed. I also understand not everyone has that luxury to just walk away and does end up injured if not killed. Again, I've never said anything about people not being able to choose how they react, but to have some middle-ground where people who do react in different ways for whatever reasons, if genuine, don't simply be tarred and told to fuck off. Awful situations like this require many people all working in different ways. To argue that racism is racism is also to argue that issues no matter how small must be dealt with, and someone in a privileged situation in a country and location that doesn't get it as hard as another location, shouldn't necessarily be shamed as their way of standing up to racism seems "easy". It's apparent in this topic and on GAF many don't have it as hard as others, hence their anecdotal evidence of what they do might not seem a lot. That cannot be helped though, we aren't all born in the same location and to the same situations. What matters most is people try to do something wherever they are born and end up living. I know many people aren't though.

Unfortunately though I don't have all the answers, and I don't even pretend what I do say is somehow the right way. I am just trying my best to navigate my thoughts and feelings, and as much as I'm catching a lot of flak in here, rest assured I am as utterly depressed and devoid of hope as many of you are. Humanity increasingly looks like it's further going to shit and yes due to the categories I fall into from birth I fully accept there are many suffering far more than me, and they have been for far longer. What has shocked me the past few years hasn't been knowing people behave the ways they think and do, but that government has become so infested by it. To be democrat and republican used to be largely to argue over situations where there isn't always a clear answer (fiscal policies on country spending). Now though we're largely arguing over things there IS a clear answer, and should only be one way of going forward (equal rights, marriage, treating with respect and so forth). I get this, I truly do.

 

[call_kotaku]

I don't believe that? Or at least not as flippantly as you have just put it. I was pointing out I know how indoctrination works. Indoctrination is usually based around a belief system of some sorts, often it is religion. It doesn't have to be though, children and young adults can be indoctrinated in many ways. The brain goes through a stage of absorbing and growing when you are younger and you haven't fully developed. In saying that though indoctrination isn't just about age, it can happen in insular environments or communities where you don't get your beliefs challenged and don't get taught about the world at large. Look at some of the madness that happens in Korea when the internet and news are controlled and people cannot experience any other viewpoints. It is sadly a powerful "tool" used in nefarious ways in order to control and influence individuals and their ways of thinking. It is not an excuse, it is simply a reality, and lots of people who need to be recovered from dangerous and oppressive ways of thinking need a ton of shit their mind has stored as data to effectively be re-written.

There are others who know best and are still absolute assholes. It's individual agency, education doesn't cure all. Many simply want to abuse, attack, and violate others because they are not decent, kind or caring people. They never will be either, or at least there's such a small chance of it. That is the sad and harrowing side to humanity.

Usually THESE are the people that are lost causes. Often ignorance and hate fuelled by religion can be worked on. It's not fucking easy though, precisely because those you might have a chance with are those who are probably brainwashed via some sort of indoctrination. It can be done though, and obviously humans are on scales of severity. Not everyone you try to change is as far gone as someone else. Some people will and can be changed. 99% of bystanders will hope it is on their own that they change, but sadly as it often goes in life some people need to spend far more personal time and energy than they ever should, trying to change someone else, and often failing.

That is precisely what I and some others argue. Not that you can't call racism racism, but when it gets down to tackling it, no, not every situation is a curb stomping Neo Nazi. Some people we call out in our lives use slurs and offensive language which is a lot easier to try and put an end to and re-educate than someone who is part of a violent hate gang. No, I probably wouldn't want to go and try to talk to violent skinheads myself (nor would I then wish a minority member has to try that), but I'll sure try and talk to and correct friends/non-violent people saying troubling words and language. I get that, it's not about being a pussy or running away, but trying not to get yourself killed. I also understand not everyone has that luxury to just walk away and does end up injured if not killed. Again, I've never said anything about people not being able to choose how they react, but to have some middle-ground where people who do react in different ways for whatever reasons, if genuine, don't simply be tarred and told to fuck off. Awful situations like this require many people all working in different ways. To argue that racism is racism is also to argue that issues no matter how small must be dealt with, and someone in a privileged situation in a country and location that doesn't get it as hard as another location, shouldn't necessarily be shamed as their way of standing up to racism seems "easy". It's apparent in this topic and on GAF many don't have it as hard as others, hence their anecdotal evidence of what they do might not seem a lot. That cannot be helped though, we aren't all born in the same location and to the same situations. What matters most is people try to do something wherever they are born and end up living. I know many people aren't though.

Unfortunately though I don't have all the answers, and I don't even pretend what I do say is somehow the right way. I am just trying my best to navigate my thoughts and feelings, and as much as I'm catching a lot of flak in here, rest assured I am as utterly depressed and devoid of hope as many of you are. Humanity increasingly looks like it's further going to shit and yes due to the categories I fall into from birth I fully accept there are many suffering far more than me, and they have been for far longer. What has shocked me the past few years hasn't been knowing people behave the ways they think and do, but that government has become so infested by it. To be democrat and republican used to be largely to argue over situations where there isn't always a clear answer (fiscal policies on country spending). Now though we're largely arguing over things there IS a clear answer, and should only be one way of going forward (equal rights, marriage, treating with respect and so forth). I get this, I truly do.

You're willfully ignoring the point I'm making though, just like white activists ignored PoC's issues with Occupy and Bernie. You're saying people are being indoctrinated, we're asking you to really think about who's doing it, how they're doing it, and why they're doing it, instead of hand-waving it away with "dumb people gonna dumb".

Bernie's "we understand black people are suffering and we'll do more to help you (because you can't help yourselves)" was a slap in the face to black people, because it completely ignores the fact that oppression and racism is something that actively happens to people and what we're looking for is someone to acknowledge and work with us to stop it, not handouts and "thoughts and prayers". We need you to tell your fellow white man to take his boot off our necks, we don't need you to feel sorry about how bad our lives are. The same thing with Occupy and the "economic anxiety" shit that's coming up now, because when you start fighting against something only once it starts affecting white people, it's just implicitly acknowledging that it's not a real problem until it affects "your" people. The "hey everyone's hurting now" thing from "allies" like yourself is actively hurting the fight against inequality, because it's erasing the fact that black people have a different set of problems, and that they are problems that didn't happen because they just happened to be black but problems that other white people gave them.

The narrative the right wants to sell you is that inequality is natural, that injustice is normal. They'll dump a mountain of shit here and pretend that it was there all along, because "how else can it be so big and so old?". Then when we try to move it we're greedy and demanding for wanting to change human nature. Then when we refuse to build on top of it and acknowledge that it's normal we're unreasonable and uncooperative. When we tell people to either help us move it or get out of the way we're pushing away our allies and making the environment toxic.

Your belief that there are people who are "lost causes" and that to be effective activists we need to make peace with this reality and accept what's natural before we start asking for extras is actively hurting the cause by undermining its urgency and questioning its legitimacy. Before we both type another spiel I just want you to really think about what we're all trying to tell you, because I really don't think you understand.

 

[Audioboxer]

You're willfully ignoring the point I'm making though, just like white activists ignored PoC's issues with Occupy and Bernie. You're saying people are being indoctrinated, we're asking you to really think about who's doing it, how they're doing it, and why they're doing it, instead of hand-waving it away with "dumb people gonna dumb".

Bernie's "we understand black people are suffering and we'll do more to help you (because you can't help yourselves)" was a slap in the face to black people, because it completely ignores the fact that oppression and racism is something that actively happens to people and what we're looking for is someone to acknowledge and work with us to stop it, not handouts and "thoughts and prayers". We need you to tell your fellow white man to take his boot off our necks, we don't need you to feel sorry about how bad our lives are. The same thing with Occupy and the "economic anxiety" shit that's coming up now, because when you start fighting against something only once it starts affecting white people, it's just implicitly acknowledging that it's not a real problem until it affects "your" people. The "hey everyone's hurting now" thing from "allies" like yourself is actively hurting the fight against inequality, because it's erasing the fact that black people have a different set of problems, and that they are problems that didn't happen because they just happened to be black but problems that other white people gave them.

The narrative the right wants to sell you is that inequality is natural, that injustice is normal. They'll dump a mountain of shit here and pretend that it was there all along, because "how else can it be so big and so old?". Then when we try to move it we're greedy and demanding for wanting to change human nature. Then when we refuse to build on top of it and acknowledge that it's normal we're unreasonable and uncooperative. When we tell people to either help us move it or get out of the way we're pushing away our allies and making the environment toxic.

Your belief that there are people who are "lost causes" and that to be effective activists we need to make peace with this reality and accept what's natural before we start asking for extras is actively hurting the cause by undermining its urgency and questioning its legitimacy. Before we both type another spiel I just want you to really think about what we're all trying to tell you, because I really don't think you understand.

I'm not doing that either. I used indoctrination to try and make a more intricate point of there being diversity of severity within racism and bigotry, while still saying racism is racism. I thought I set myself up to explain that by the end of the post. Or at least I tried. As someone who aims to be a clinical psychologist I just have to study the brain and why things happen in it, and how it can be changed, if changed. I can't change that way of me looking at things, it's how I'm being educated to approach much surrounding humanity and how the brain works. To try and unravel the hows and whys, not just start with conclusions (solve x) and try to get there. Again for the umpteenth time that is not me saying people have to think like me, it's an explanation for why I think how I do.

I'll take heed of your final point. I don't want to turn this into a back and forth of "you misunderstand me and I am misunderstanding you" either. I'll accept you view my posts and feelings as undermining the fight against inequality, and that I'm just missing points from yourself and others. Maybe I'll try and post again later if I feel that is true, or it might just be best I leave the topic if the overwhelming feeling is I am doing more harm than good. That's not my intentions but if it's how it is being viewed it might be for the best. Whatever onlookers think at least they can see this was a lengthy exchange that did not end with unpleasantries. I'll also still continue being me in real life regardless of opinions online disagreeing with how I try and approach things, and that's all I can do. I don't have any doubts over my kind caring and accepting nature. Nor what little political activism I do get involved in. How I get there might be up for debate but I at least know I am trying to do good in my own ways. None of that ever involves tolerating intolerance, I just have my own ways of trying to deal with it and offer my thoughts to the battle of ideas. Again I'm not telling you or anyone else how to do things how you want to, so it does get me agitated to have that constantly repeated. If it has to be blunt, you do you, and I'll do me, and hopefully we'll both contribute to the greater good in our own ways. It's nice to fight alongside people, but I guess I should takeaway the point that there is no need to want to be called an ally if it's going to be met so badly, I'm just best to drop that and do me as best as I can. Ironically that is what I attack on the left, the ever increasing lack of ability for individuals to try and tackle things in various ways.

 

[Frozenprince]

Do you understand why those people can continue to have those views which are completely outlandish by any reasonable standard? Do you understand how people in the past supported even more outlandish things like slavery or the holocaust? It's because their world view is constantly being reinforced, and because "reasonable" voices are willing to help them do it, not just Fox News and Breitbart. This is how Donald Trump got elected, not because 25% of America is just as racist as he and his platform is, but because his platform got normalized by people who need to find wisdom in inaction. When you put him on a debate stage with the rest of the Republican candidates, and cover him as if he were a serious contender with actual views, you legitimize him to Republican voters. When you put him on a debate stage with Hillary Clinton and cover him as if he were a serious contender with actual views, you legitimize him to America. When you see him win and therefore treat him as just a regular elected official and treat white supremacy as a legitimate campaign platform, you legitimize him to history.

He got here precisely because not enough people were willing to call him by what he really was, because they were desperate not to have to do something to stop him. Now because the Left predicted all of this decades ago we get blamed for causing it because we were the only people talking about it. Because confronting "smug liberals" is easier than actually confronting racism, as this thread demonstrates.

It's how the right and the establishment always manipulate you, but you guys never realize it. When you name something alt-right it means it's just a legitimate part of the conservative party, not literal nazis. When you name something white nationalism it sounds reasonable because black people have their advocacy groups so why can't white people. When you name something men's rights it seems okay because women's rights are always talked about. Right wing extremists are always manipulating moderates further right by normalizing fringe views, but the left wing gets blamed for being overly pushy because we have the decency to treat you like people instead of idiots.

Bless you brave son. Keep fighting the good fight.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

This thread needs to be allowed to die.

It's already been proclaimed that racists will no longer be held accountable for their thoughts and actions here, so save your energy

 

[Frozenprince]

This thread needs to be allowed to die.

It's already been proclaimed that racists will no longer be held accountable for their thoughts and actions here, so save your energy

Nah, this needs to live as long as possible. Asses must continue to be shown.

You don't have to live in the deep south to go there, audioboxer. And it doesn't have to be the deep south. Feel free to tell me about your many experiences converting racists anywhere. I'd be fascinated to hear them, as I DID grow up in the deep south, in the seventies, when you could hear the word "nigger" on any street at any time of day. I've been talking to racists my entire life, because I'm related to them and surrounded by them.

But you, you saw a Vox article with a sketchy study in it, and have spent the thread tut-tutting anyone who didn't agree that this was the most reasonable way to fight racism -- even though dozens of PoC have told you their experiences and how it doesn't work.

There can totally be a range of options. You can do whatever you want to do to fight racism. Hopefully you're doing something. But you've instead been arguing with PoC who clearly said they have no intention of doing this and that they aren't responsible for saving the souls of racists.

I literally said in my first post on this subject that there are a bunch of ways to approach the issue, and if people wan to go door to door to talk racists down, that's great. It's also okay if people think that's a waste of time. Particularly when they have a large number of experiences telling them it's a waste of time. Literally no one is stopping you from engaging in sweet reason with racists. Again, I look forward to the many people who support this idea hitting the streets and letting us know about their experiences. I'll gladly start and monitor a thread just for that purpose if anyone is actually going to do it. But as far as I can tell, it's just guys sitting around saying someone should be doing it and glancing slowly over at the PoC in the thread.

As someone else who grew up in the deep south I can 100% verify the words put to page here.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Ol boy straight up lied to me about being in England lmao

Whatever man, we're post-truth now I guess

 

[EviLore]

This thread needs to be allowed to die.

It's already been proclaimed that racists will no longer be held accountable for their thoughts and actions here, so save your energy

Excuse me?

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Ol boy straight up lied to me about being in England lmao

Whatever man, we're post-truth now I guess

Wrong, he lives in scotland. It's part of the UK but it's not england. Don't talk shit about people if you can't get your facts right.

 

[Cipherr]

Do you understand why those people can continue to have those views which are completely outlandish by any reasonable standard? Do you understand how people in the past supported even more outlandish things like slavery or the holocaust? It's because their world view is constantly being reinforced, and because "reasonable" voices are willing to help them do it, not just Fox News and Breitbart. This is how Donald Trump got elected, not because 25% of America is just as racist as he and his platform is, but because his platform got normalized by people who need to find wisdom in inaction. When you put him on a debate stage with the rest of the Republican candidates, and cover him as if he were a serious contender with actual views, you legitimize him to Republican voters. When you put him on a debate stage with Hillary Clinton and cover him as if he were a serious contender with actual views, you legitimize him to America. When you see him win and therefore treat him as just a regular elected official and treat white supremacy as a legitimate campaign platform, you legitimize him to history.

He got here precisely because not enough people were willing to call him by what he really was, because they were desperate not to have to do something to stop him. Now because the Left predicted all of this decades ago we get blamed for causing it because we were the only people talking about it. Because confronting "smug liberals" is easier than actually confronting racism, as this thread demonstrates.

It's how the right and the establishment always manipulate you, but you guys never realize it. When you name something alt-right it means it's just a legitimate part of the conservative party, not literal nazis. When you name something white nationalism it sounds reasonable because black people have their advocacy groups so why can't white people. When you name something men's rights it seems okay because women's rights are always talked about. Right wing extremists are always manipulating moderates further right by normalizing fringe views, but the left wing gets blamed for being overly pushy because we have the decency to treat you like people instead of idiots.

Painfully accurate. Good fucking lord... So.... accurate.

I fully admit to nearly falling for the "Mens Rights Activists" shit years ago when hearing about it by name. It was only upon closer inspection that I noticed that it wasn't innocent at all, but hateful shit hidden under a name meant to sound "reasonable" to hook people in. U-turned on that shit instantly. But its really a testament to how easily people can be baited into those movements and how effective they are.

 

[EatinOlives]

Wtf is going on in this thread , you're presented with evidence that one way of dealing with bigotry and racism doesn't work but no well ignore science too since it doesn't suit your views ? Seriously ?

You need to be way, way more critical of published studies if you're going to use them as an argument. Don't take the Facebook/Today Show Pop Science route and shout "STUDIES SHOW..." followed by thinly correlated findings and pretend you're speaking "science". I presume you've seen the John Oliver segment on it, best to heed that advice.

There's three things to that study. Number one, the study was about discrimination for transgender folks. Number two, it was retracted by the journal. Three, one or simply a handful of studies reports on findings that suggest a particular phenomenon, in no way is it ground truth and shouldn't be taken as such.

Vox was using it largely as a jumping-off point for a larger discussion. But they weren't treating it like gospel. You would be wise to do the same, unless you want to start arguing that people scoffing at those "A glass of wine a day is just as good as an hour at the gym!" studies are being "anti-science".

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Fucking shit, call_kotaku. Fantastic post. Very well stated.

 

[CopperPuppy]

Do you understand why those people can continue to have those views which are completely outlandish by any reasonable standard? Do you understand how people in the past supported even more outlandish things like slavery or the holocaust? It's because their world view is constantly being reinforced, and because "reasonable" voices are willing to help them do it, not just Fox News and Breitbart. This is how Donald Trump got elected, not because 25% of America is just as racist as he and his platform is, but because his platform got normalized by people who need to find wisdom in inaction. When you put him on a debate stage with the rest of the Republican candidates, and cover him as if he were a serious contender with actual views, you legitimize him to Republican voters. When you put him on a debate stage with Hillary Clinton and cover him as if he were a serious contender with actual views, you legitimize him to America. When you see him win and therefore treat him as just a regular elected official and treat white supremacy as a legitimate campaign platform, you legitimize him to history.

He got here precisely because not enough people were willing to call him by what he really was, because they were desperate not to have to do something to stop him. Now because the Left predicted all of this decades ago we get blamed for causing it because we were the only people talking about it. Because confronting "smug liberals" is easier than actually confronting racism, as this thread demonstrates.

It's how the right and the establishment always manipulate you, but you guys never realize it. When you name something alt-right it means it's just a legitimate part of the conservative party, not literal nazis. When you name something white nationalism it sounds reasonable because black people have their advocacy groups so why can't white people. When you name something men's rights it seems okay because women's rights are always talked about. Right wing extremists are always manipulating moderates further right by normalizing fringe views, but the left wing gets blamed for being overly pushy because we have the decency to treat you like people instead of idiots.

What a fucking spot-on post. Bravo.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Excuse me?

The thread just keeps going in circles and it's just disheartening to watch.

To be honest it feels like a pretty strong anti-minority vibe around here since last week, with so many people willing to handwave the overt bigotry of Trump and the incoming administration to focus on getting votes. I'm sure the fervor on both sides (ugh) will die down after a while but it's pretty depressing.

Wrong, he lives in scotland. It's part of the UK but it's not england.

I figured it was a semantic thing with the UK and not actually England, but it was presented like it would have invalidated the point I was trying to make at the time, which was that a white person outside the US would probably have more difficulty empathizing with a US minority, which as you can see by the posts themselves was not an unreasonable thing to say.

 

[Malakai]

...

Do you even truly understand how racism actually effect it's victims?

 

[EviLore]

The thread just keeps going in circles and it's just disheartening to watch.

To be honest it feels like a pretty strong anti-minority vibe around here since last week, with so many people willing to handwave the overt bigotry of Trump and the incoming administration to focus on getting votes. I'm sure the fervor on both sides (ugh) will die down after a while but it's pretty depressing.

Please clarify exactly how "it's already been proclaimed that racists will no longer be held accountable for their thoughts and actions here."

 

[SURGEdude]

Do you understand why those people can continue to have those views which are completely outlandish by any reasonable standard? Do you understand how people in the past supported even more outlandish things like slavery or the holocaust? It's because their world view is constantly being reinforced, and because "reasonable" voices are willing to help them do it, not just Fox News and Breitbart. This is how Donald Trump got elected, not because 25% of America is just as racist as he and his platform is, but because his platform got normalized by people who need to find wisdom in inaction. When you put him on a debate stage with the rest of the Republican candidates, and cover him as if he were a serious contender with actual views, you legitimize him to Republican voters. When you put him on a debate stage with Hillary Clinton and cover him as if he were a serious contender with actual views, you legitimize him to America. When you see him win and therefore treat him as just a regular elected official and treat white supremacy as a legitimate campaign platform, you legitimize him to history.

He got here precisely because not enough people were willing to call him by what he really was, because they were desperate not to have to do something to stop him. Now because the Left predicted all of this decades ago we get blamed for causing it because we were the only people talking about it. Because confronting "smug liberals" is easier than actually confronting racism, as this thread demonstrates.

It's how the right and the establishment always manipulate you, but you guys never realize it. When you name something alt-right it means it's just a legitimate part of the conservative party, not literal nazis. When you name something white nationalism it sounds reasonable because black people have their advocacy groups so why can't white people. When you name something men's rights it seems okay because women's rights are always talked about. Right wing extremists are always manipulating moderates further right by normalizing fringe views, but the left wing gets blamed for being overly pushy because we have the decency to treat you like people instead of idiots.

I think the media deserves a huge amount of blame for legitimizing this demon. Once they did that it was easy for the right to paint the left as snobby and libelous.

Through the media making him seem normal, those of us pointing out he's a racist and all around bigot were spun as hyperbolic PC culture warriors just trying to smear the guy on the right. All of the sudden we were the bad guys. The fact that people internalized criticism of Trump as direct labeling of them was an unexpected and deadly result.

 

[Darryl M R]

Sounds like Duck is referring to posters empathizing with racists and not victims in solution threads and not that GAF mods will let racist poster stay on the site.


Which is a feeling I share. It's not an offense (unless it goes too far with victim blaming and reverse racism talk). I question why aren't victims being the main focused with racism solutions. Making sure that victims are okay and feel humanized. The greater good can exclude minorities (which it has before), because we are the lesser in numbers.

 

[Silver Arrows]

Sounds like Duck is referring to posters empathizing with racists and not victims in solution threads and not that GAF mods will let racist poster stay on the site.


Which is a feeling I share. It's not an offense (unless it goes too far with victim blaming and reverse racism talk).

Exactly the sort of vibe I'm getting from his post as well. The amount of bullshit I have had to read in terms of validating racist thoughts by 'reaching out' to them is nauseating to say the least since Trump has been elected.

 

[jroc74]

What gets me is we can't label ppl racists according to this and some ppl. But if we don't how does it get treated? How does the dialogue start?

A drug addict is called one before treatment starts. A violent person is labeled that or with anger management issues before treatment starts.

How in the hell is it going to get fixed if they don't get called racists first?

The first step to getting help is admitting you have a problem. You have to admit you are a racist first before it can be fixed.

 

[pj]

Please clarify exactly how "it's already been proclaimed that racists will no longer be held accountable for their thoughts and actions here."

Because saying "shaming them into the dark corners of the internet doesn't help" means that racism is OK

 

[DragonSworne]

What gets me is we can't label ppl racists according to this and some ppl. But if we don't how does it get treated? How does the dialogue start?

A drug addict is called one before treatment starts. A violent person is labeled that or with anger management issues before treatment starts.

How in the hell is it going to get fixed if they don't get called racists first?

The first step to getting help is admitting you have a problem. You have to admit you are a racist first before it can be fixed.

Because the researchers approached racism as a difference in opinion.

 

[studyguy]

Honestly the most depressing thing about a lot of the kind of rhetoric being pushed around both online and through pundits on television is that idea of pulling back form minority issues in favor of white working class issues. DNC is a big tent, but even yesterday listening to NPR with spokespeople denying allegations that the DNC would be backing off minority rights issues was depressing. That shouldn't have to be said but apparently it's gotten enough traction in the news to become something people consider.

I could expend my energy on ignorant racists I guess, frankly I don't have that kind of time nor do I particularly want the job. Spent some of my time helping canvass Spanish speaking communities during the run up to election. I know where I stand and can connect with people disengaged from the system easier than I would probably ever be able to flip a vote. You could write me off for not expending the effort to convince someone against racism, but at the same time I have as much of a right asking what non-minority posters are doing to help us out too. If you're going to place the burden on minorities alone then I don't know what to tell you.

There's a reason we're called a minority group, whites outnumber us by far so it's not unreasonable to ask for help too from where I'm standing. When shit fails you can't just point to the blacks and browns alone going why didn't you do more? Most of this article just sort of feels like that's what being asked of me and mine moreso than pointing to some group called the left, whatever that is after the election.

 

[Darryl M R]

Because saying "shaming them into the dark corners of the internet doesn't help" means that racism is OK

A lot of posters and myself have poured a lot into this thread to help share our point of view on why it is disingenuous and harmful to suggest that a viable solution for people of color is to be empathic to their oppressors.

There have been posts stating that normalizing racism is also harmful for the country.

I take your post as a insulting drive-by where you did not take the time to even listen to at least one argument on any of this multi-paged thread.

 

[Silver Arrows]

A lot of posters and myself have poured a lot into this thread to help share our point of view on why it is disingenuous and harmful to suggest that a viable solution for people of color is to be empathic to their oppressors.

There have been posts stating that normalizing racism is also harmful for the country.

I take your post as a insulting drive-by where you did not take the time to even listen to at least one argument on any of this multi-paged thread.

Well....

Yeah, no one is suggesting you agree with them or respect their point of view. You have to engage with them to show them why they're wrong, rather than just block them on twitter and think you've made the world a better place.

White people are still the majority, you're gonna have to deal with them for a while.

From the first page of this thread.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Please clarify exactly how "it's already been proclaimed that racists will no longer be held accountable for their thoughts and actions here."

All right, it obviously has not actually been proclaimed that racists will no longer be held accountable for their thoughts and actions, but your post in the Jon Stewart thread, on top of the myriad posts blaming calling out bigotry unapologetically for the Trump win, made it feel like we're not supposed to address that facet of the campaign or that motivation for voting for him anymore without consequences.

I've said myself many times that I don't believe every Trump supporter was on board because of the bigotry interwoven with his messaging, but that they were at the very least indifferent to it. I even get the idea of voting your own interests over anyone else's, even though we're rapidly seeing how little Trump actually plans to address his supporters' interests. It just seems that while every other terrible aspect can be discussed without issue, the bigotry is now off limits in the interest of trying to get Trump supporter votes for the next go-round. From a purely pragmatic standpoint I get that, but it almost means logistically that minority-specific issues will suffer.

I suppose it's all just wait and see at this point anyway.

 

[Darryl M R]

Well....



From the first page of this thread.

"You have to engage with them"

No minorities do not. This thread spoke about using general language for solutions that should be separate for different groups of people.

A person of color does not have to engage with a racist for that racist to change. If a racist has a child then her son could convince them. Her co-worker.

Telling victims of oppression to engage with their oppressor in civil discourse, while being seen as subhuman, is not a sensible way to tackle racism.

And this is the thesis of most people posts. Minorities have done a lot to handle racism. Having the majority come into the conversation and say "just talk with them and they'll change" ignores the historical efforts of minorities.

 

[Silver Arrows]

"You have to engage with them"

No minorities do not. This thread spoke about using general language for solutions that should be separate for different groups of people.

A person of color does not have to engage with a racist for that racist to change. If a racist has a child then her son could convince them. Her co-worker.

Telling victims of oppression to engage with their oppressor in civil discourse, while being seen as subhuman, is not a sensible way to tackle racism.

And this is the thesis of most people posts. Minorities have done a lot to handle racism. Having the majority come into the conversation and say "just talk with them and they'll change" ignores the historical efforts of minorities.

Exactly. You can put lipstick on a pig and all that, but you hit home why this thread has been thirty pages of run around, often from the same people.

 

[Valhelm]

"You have to engage with them"

No minorities do not. This thread spoke about using general language for solutions that should be separate for different groups of people.

A person of color does not have to engage with a racist for that racist to change. If a racist has a child then her son could convince them. Her co-worker.

Telling victims of oppression to engage with their oppressor in civil discourse, while being seen as subhuman, is not a sensible way to tackle racism.

And this is the thesis of most people posts. Minorities have done a lot to handle racism. Having the majority come into the conversation and say "just talk with them and they'll change" ignores the historical efforts of minorities.

Definitely. White progressives need to do this. Racists are more likely to listen to us regardless.

 

[Darryl M R]

Definitely. White progressives need to do this. Racists are more likely to listen to us regardless.

And to add this does not imply that minorities would then kickback and relax. Conversations with moderate whites is different than conversations with racists.

Like explaining to someone that considers themselves an ally that telling minorities to just talk isn't a helpful solution while offering them the opportunity to protest in solidity or suggesting to them to write to their congresswomen or congressmen.

But right now we have been focus on just having others understand that this article and study is not providing a sensible solution for minorities. Minorities. Victims of racism.

I appreciate any ally and seeing the thread where White gaf members offered solutions on what they can do was proof that people are willing to do uncomfortable things for the benefit of minorities. But those posters aren't the ones we have been going back and forth with.

 

[pj]

A lot of posters and myself have poured a lot into this thread to help share our point of view on why it is disingenuous and harmful to suggest that a viable solution for people of color is to be empathic to their oppressors.

There have been posts stating that normalizing racism is also harmful for the country.

I take your post as a insulting drive-by where you did not take the time to even listen to at least one argument on any of this multi-paged thread.

I kept up with the thread for a while and would not consider myself a drive by-er.

They don't have to be "empathetic to their oppressors", they have to be realistic and figure out how to best treat racism, especially in those who aren't even conscious of how they are racist.

If you see someone say "blacks are sub-human", then by all means shout them down, get them banned from gaf, whatever. I'll help you. There are degrees of racism and there should be degrees of reaction. A blanket "ban/shame/ostracize anyone for any level of race infraction" is not going to solve the issue.

No one is suggesting we normalize racism, but I think normalizing outrage is very damaging to the cause of reducing racism in this country.

 

[pj]

Telling victims of oppression to engage with their oppressor in civil discourse, while being seen as subhuman, is not a sensible way to tackle racism.

And this is the thesis of most people posts. Minorities have done a lot to handle racism. Having the majority come into the conversation and say "just talk with them and they'll change" ignores the historical efforts of minorities.

I don't know if it's only you but I've seen the idea of racists believing minorities are subhuman several times in this thread.

What % of whites do you honestly think believe blacks/latinos/muslims are subhuman?

Whatever that actual percentage is, yes, write those people off, they are likely beyond help.

That is not the type of racist that the "engage with them" people are talking about. The majority of racist white people just don't care about the problems of blacks or latinos. It's not about thinking they are sub human or whatever.

Saying "engage with them" doesn't ignore the historical efforts of minorities, it says "don't stop now".

 

[EviLore]

All right, it obviously has not actually been proclaimed that racists will no longer be held accountable for their thoughts and actions, but your post in the Jon Stewart thread, on top of the myriad posts blaming calling out bigotry unapologetically for the Trump win, made it feel like we're not supposed to address that facet of the campaign or that motivation for voting for him anymore without consequences.

I've said myself many times that I don't believe every Trump supporter was on board because of the bigotry interwoven with his messaging, but that they were at the very least indifferent to it. I even get the idea of voting your own interests over anyone else's, even though we're rapidly seeing how little Trump actually plans to address his supporters' interests. It just seems that while every other terrible aspect can be discussed without issue, the bigotry is now off limits in the interest of trying to get Trump supporter votes for the next go-round. From a purely pragmatic standpoint I get that, but it almost means logistically that minority-specific issues will suffer.

I suppose it's all just wait and see at this point anyway.

You were able to read,

"Bigotry and hate speech will not be tolerated, and you will also not scream and threaten and run someone out of town at any hint of who they may have voted for or what party they affiliate with."

as, "It's already been proclaimed that racists will no longer be held accountable for their thoughts and actions here."


This is scorched earth radical partisanship where everyone who does not say exactly what you want to hear is now the Enemy, including anyone even noting that it's happening.

 

[Darryl M R]

I don't know if it's only you but I've seen the idea of racists believing minorities are subhuman several times in this thread.

What % of whites do you honestly think believe blacks/latinos/muslims are subhuman?

Whatever that actual percentage is, yes, write those people off, they are likely beyond help.

That is not the type of racist that the "engage with them" people are talking about. The majority of racist white people just don't care about the problems of blacks or latinos. It's not about thinking they are sub human or whatever.

Saying "engage with them" doesn't ignore the historical efforts of minorities, it says "don't stop now".

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

We are all human.

If someone consider me inferior to them that makes me subhuman in their eyes.

So 100%.

The whites that don't care about the issues of blacks and latinos aren't racists. They are assholes. This is a thread about racists. Not assholes.

I don't argue that all Trump voters are racists despite them not caring about minorities with their vote, but I'll point out any comment that denies that racism and racists played a role in the election of Trump.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

You were able to read,

"Bigotry and hate speech will not be tolerated, and you will also not scream and threaten and run someone out of town at any hint of who they may have voted for or what party they affiliate with."

as, "It's already been proclaimed that racists will no longer be held accountable for their thoughts and actions here."


This is scorched earth radical partisanship where everyone who does not say exactly what you want to hear is now the Enemy, including anyone even noting that it's happening.

All right man, I admit I fucked up by letting my frustration over what's happening and what's coming post that.

I'll step away

 

[pj]

Definitely. White progressives need to do this. Racists are more likely to listen to us regardless.

Is this the new white man's burden?

As a white person I don't consider myself enough of an authority on race to lecture others. Those who do are often dismissed by those they lecture as being riddled with "white guilt".

Besides, as a very liberal guy I tend to associate with like minded people and almost never see people being racist (not that my radar is perfect to begin with)

 

[Darryl M R]

Is this the new white man's burden?

As a white person I don't consider myself enough of an authority on race to lecture others. Those who do are often dismissed by those they lecture as being riddled with "white guilt".

Besides, as a very liberal guy I tend to associate with like minded people and almost never see people being racist (not that my radar is perfect to begin with)

It's been American's burden for the last century. Minorities just been doing all the leg work and now some white liberals are confused by the expectation of them doing more to tackle racism besides them not just being racist themselves. Racism is only in the news now because people realized that racists can vote in mass.

And I answered your question on the percent. 100% of racists see minorities as subhuman.

 

[call_kotaku]

I kept up with the thread for a while and would not consider myself a drive by-er.

They don't have to be "empathetic to their oppressors", they have to be realistic and figure out how to best treat racism, especially in those who aren't even conscious of how they are racist.

If you see someone say "blacks are sub-human", then by all means shout them down, get them banned from gaf, whatever. I'll help you. There are degrees of racism and there should be degrees of reaction. A blanket "ban/shame/ostracize anyone for any level of race infraction" is not going to solve the issue.

No one is suggesting we normalize racism, but I think normalizing outrage is very damaging to the cause of reducing racism in this country.

There are posts in this thread comparing people talking about racism to crying wolf, and a lot of people here are eager to blame PoC reciprocating Trump's rhetoric on race as the reason we lost the election and the reason that we will continue to lose elections. It's absurd because saying "calling people out for racism doesn't work" is basically saying abolition and the civil rights movement never happened, because calling out racism/sexism/homophobia DOES work, it works really really well.

In fact it might work too well, because people start assuming there's an inevitability to these things, and start patting themselves on the back thinking this is some sort of clicker game because they can't see the people who worked hard for their entire lives on it. The progress America's made from slavery and genocide isn't the natural conclusion of American ideals prevailing over bigotry, it's the combined sweat and blood of several generations of people who worked hard to get us here, so saying "don't confront racists" now does end up being "please stop here".

 

[pj]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism



We are all human.

If someone consider me inferior to them that makes me subhuman in their eyes.

So 100%.

I'm sorry but this is beyond ridiculous. Inferior doesn't mean subhuman. I think I have a better work ethic than my brother. Does that mean I think he's subhuman? No of course not. Saying "Mexicans are lazy" is a racist stereotype but even if it were true doesn't make Mexicans not human.

 

[The Shadow]

This is scorched earth radical partisanship where everyone who does not say exactly what you want to hear is now the Enemy, including anyone even noting that it's happening.

This is exactly why I peaced out of the thread earlier. Probably Meicyn too, who talked about his work in equality at a school only to get piled on regardless. Coincidentally, both me and him were assumed multiple times to be white, even though we're not. Generalizations abound in this thread.

Somehow "Talk to racists and make them understand what they're doing is wrong so they're not racist anymore" is twisted into "coddling" or "normalizing". It's aggravating when you try to tell people this and they blow up in your face because you're not shouting "racist" at the top of your lungs and flipping people off.

I've literally done both. Guess which one was effective. I've explained why people were so fearful of a Trump presidency to one guy and he ended up telling me they felt bad because they didn't understand what muslims were going through and that they would do 10 acts of kindness to them to make up for it (West coast hippie type guy). I've talked to someone out of voting for Trump the same way, (they ended up not voting for either candidate).

I'm going to continue to talk to people and help them understand. It works. I know.

 

[4 is a cutie]

This is exactly why I peaced out of the thread earlier. Probably Meicyn too, who alked about his work in equality at a school only to get piled on regardless. Coincidentally, both me and him were assumed multiple times to be white, even though we're not. Generalizations abound in this thread.

Somehow "Talk to racists and make them understand what they're doing is wrong so they're not racist anymore" is twisted into "coddling" or "normalizing". It's aggravating when you try to tell people this and they blow up in your face because you're not shouting "racist" at the top of your lungs and flipping people off.

I've done both. Guess which one was effective. I've literally made someone tell me they felt bad because they didn't understand what muslims were going through and that they would do 10 acts of kindness to them to make up for it (West coast hippie type guy). I've literally talked to someone out of voting for Trump the same way, (they ended up not voting for either candidate).

I'm going to continue to talk to people and help them understand. It worked. I know.

who said people should do this?

 

[Darryl M R]

I'm sorry but this is beyond ridiculous. Inferior doesn't mean subhuman. I think I have a better work ethic than my brother. Does that mean I think he's subhuman? No of course not. Saying "Mexicans are lazy" is a racist stereotype but even if it were true doesn't make Mexicans not human.

Comparing your individual brother work ethic to your own because of your experience with your individual brother

vs

Comparing an entire nationality of people work ethic to your own

One of these things is not like the other.

And:

No one thinks of stereotypes as multi-faceted human beings

This is exactly why I peaced out of the thread earlier. Probably Meicyn too, who talked about his work in equality at a school only to get piled on regardless. Coincidentally, both me and him were assumed multiple times to be white, even though we're not. Generalizations abound in this thread.

Somehow "Talk to racists and make them understand what they're doing is wrong so they're not racist anymore" is twisted into "coddling" or "normalizing". It's aggravating when you try to tell people this and they blow up in your face because you're not shouting "racist" at the top of your lungs and flipping people off.

I've literally done both. Guess which one was effective. I've literally made someone tell me they felt bad because they didn't understand what muslims were going through and that they would do 10 acts of kindness to them to make up for it (West coast hippie type guy). I've literally talked to someone out of voting for Trump the same way, (they ended up not voting for either candidate).

I'm going to continue to talk to people and help them understand. It worked. I know.

Who said this in this thread?

Are you serious right now?