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[Mod of War]

Lol this thread, anyone who voices anything remotely close to constructive criticism towards Sony is automatically labelled as Xbot, even though that same person may have been a PlayStation gamer for most of his life. This forum is reaching a new low when it comes to console warring, absolute shambles.

True fans of Sony are fans of Sony due to one thing only - because of how they do things. The style, the quality, etc. when this high watermark isn’t met, those fans call it out.

Did Xbox fans call out MS cross gen stance, or gimped XsS, or was it almost universal repetition of Phil’s talking points? I don’t want to generalise and belittle those that stood up to such failings. But no respect for corporate shilling.

Xbox fans have been conditioned with mediocrity and therefore have very low standards as a result, something Sony fans would not have approved of in the past. I am seeing a change though, you have some Sony fans who are shilling for whatever Sony is doing because they feel like it's their defense against attacks from Xbox fans. You now have this division among Sony fans with some being ostracized because they aren't willing to shill and keep quite.

I just find it funny how people who I've known as PlayStation gamers on this forum are being called Xbots simply because they disagree with some directions that Sony is taking. It boggles my mind how some people think you can't criticise these mega corporations and simply have to go along with everything they say and do. This is what consumer slavery looks like.

I ran a search query after reading the first quoted post, since I was ready to hand out warnings and/or reply/site bans for that juvenile warring- yet the only instances of "xbot" are these 3

 

[Reindeer]

I ran a search query after reading the first quoted post, since I was ready to hand out warnings and/or reply/site bans for that juvenile warring- yet the only instances of "xbot" are these 3

There are plenty of instances here of people being labelled as Xbox fanboys simply because they criticised Sony for something or disagreed with their policy. I only used the term "Xbot" because that's what was implied, even if they didn't use that term specifically. I'll make sure I'll be more specific in future.

 

[Mod of War]

There are plenty of instances here of people being being attacked as pro Xbox gamers simply because they criticised Sony for something or disagreed with their policy. I only used the term "Xbot" because that's what was implied, even if they didn't use that term specifically. I'll make sure I'll be more specific in future.

Please utilize the report feature in the future for those crossing the line and all out trolling or console warring.

 

[Clear]

'You cannot treat a hypothetical as a certainty, Especially not with game-dev.'

So by your rules your own argument is false because you can't treat any hypothetical with certainty. I can say it's being held back and you can say it's not, and nobody is right or wrong. Ok!

Yes. Because all the handwringing is based on the presupposition that somehow you're missing out. Which as I've explained has no basis whatsoever in reality.

The fact is that OBVIOUSLY we're not talking certainties. Obviously. But informed speculation IS valid and in this case we already know the answer.

No, you're not informed! Not in the slightestt!

Do you know what the design goals are for these unpublished games? Were you party to the design and team meetings? Have you ever worked in commercial game-dev?

I have. For over 20 years. And it doesn't work like you seem think it does. If your brief is to showcase a particular aspect of the tech you end up enslaved by it; it becomes the point of the exercise not a thing that (rightfully) facilitates and enriches the creative goals of the project.

I never said every game is like or should be like R&C, but what....you think that Guerrilla and Santa Monica couldn't think of things to do with their games that wouldn't be possible on the PS4 in the same way what we see in R&C wouldn't be possible?

Like what exactly? The only thing intrinsic to Rift Apart's design is the ability to near seamlessly transition between locations via the titular rifts. You honestly think that shoehorning that into melee combat orientated titles like GoW would be more than a shallow gimmick? Really? Same deal with Horizon. Do you want Aloy to fight robot dinosaurs in a primitive post apocalyptic dystopia or do you want her to be zapping between dimensions willy-nilly?

Have you even thought this through?

Like I said earlier. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. That line of thinking was what led to motion controls getting wedged clumsily into a lot of games that gained nothing from them during the PS360/Wii era!

Like I said, starting out with a brief or an intent to showcase a particular piece of tech is as often a detriment to the end result as a boon. Rift Apart is a great showcase, but its built around it, and happens to be a pretty natural fit for the property. This is not true for every game.

People have talked for years about how in the GoW dragon fight it had to be in the clouds due to the load on the processor and GPU.... So that's one example where today making that game for PS5 they'd have to do the same to ensure that the 'same game' plays on both consoles.

Actually they don't. There's a difference between a PS4 game provisioned with a runtime profile for forwards compatibility and a PS5 version of a PS4 game. There is no equivalent to smart delivery on Playstation. You can have a PS4 and PS5 version installed at the same time. If they wanted to add or change stuff, they could do. That they don't is more about optics and perception than anything else.

There will even simply be limitations on the number of objects and textures that can be loaded in. Bottom line, anyone who understands the electronics industry knows that 9 years is a LONG time and a VAST gulf in technology. Look at processors alone and where they were 9 years ago compared to now.

What, like the underwater stuff in Horizon: Forbidden West. You think you're getting that level of texture detail and scene density on PS4? Hmmm....


Anyone who's worked in game-dev knows that design has barely changed in two decades. Presentation and scope have improved greatly, but the fundamentals.... not so much. The idea that faster CPU's and more capable GPU's is going to radically change every game going forwards is laughable.

I mean for all the yak about what Rift Apart is doing, Portal explored much the same ground back in 2007. The PS5 allows for a much visually richer implementation, but conceptually I don't see anything that's too dissimilar.

That's all we're saying. There WILL be limitations as a result of this decision and we will not see what the PS5 really can do until 1st parties are allowed to design for the PS5 only.

And what I'm saying is don't mistake a tool for the entirety of the construction.

Tools are great, they can allow you to do stuff faster and better than you can with your bare hands alone. But the thought process guiding those hands is what's important, and you simply cannot CANNOT blindly assume that the presence of a tool is the defining factor.

This is what I see being expressed and what I'm objecting to. Its like saying well PSVR exists so lets make everything be in VR or have a VR mode. FUCKING NO!

Its not to deny there are potential benefits, its just the assumption of inferiority that annoys the piss out of me. Its offensively stupid and shallow-minded.

 

[Shmunter]

Yes. Because all the handwringing is based on the presupposition that somehow you're missing out. Which as I've explained has no basis whatsoever in reality.




No, you're not informed! Not in the slightestt!

Do you know what the design goals are for these unpublished games? Were you party to the design and team meetings? Have you ever worked in commercial game-dev?

I have. For over 20 years. And it doesn't work like you seem think it does. If your brief is to showcase a particular aspect of the tech you end up enslaved by it; it becomes the point of the exercise not a thing that (rightfully) facilitates and enriches the creative goals of the project.





Like what exactly? The only thing intrinsic to Rift Apart's design is the ability to near seamlessly transition between locations via the titular rifts. You honestly think that shoehorning that into melee combat orientated titles like GoW would be more than a shallow gimmick? Really? Same deal with Horizon. Do you want Aloy to fight robot dinosaurs in a primitive post apocalyptic dystopia or do you want her to be zapping between dimensions willy-nilly?

Have you even thought this through?

Like I said earlier. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. That line of thinking was what led to motion controls getting wedged clumsily into a lot of games that gained nothing from them during the PS360/Wii era!

Like I said, starting out with a brief or an intent to showcase a particular piece of tech is as often a detriment to the end result as a boon. Rift Apart is a great showcase, but its built around it, and happens to be a pretty natural fit for the property. This is not true for every game.




Actually they don't. There's a difference between a PS4 game provisioned with a runtime profile for forwards compatibility and a PS5 version of a PS4 game. There is no equivalent to smart delivery on Playstation. You can have a PS4 and PS5 version installed at the same time. If they wanted to add or change stuff, they could do. That they don't is more about optics and perception than anything else.




What, like the underwater stuff in Horizon: Forbidden West. You think you're getting that level of texture detail and scene density on PS4? Hmmm....


Anyone who's worked in game-dev knows that design has barely changed in two decades. Presentation and scope have improved greatly, but the fundamentals.... not so much. The idea that faster CPU's and more capable GPU's is going to radically change every game going forwards is laughable.

I mean for all the yak about what Rift Apart is doing, Portal explored much the same ground back in 2007. The PS5 allows for a much visually richer implementation, but conceptually I don't see anything that's too dissimilar.




And what I'm saying is don't mistake a tool for the entirety of the construction.

Tools are great, they can allow you to do stuff faster and better than you can with your bare hands alone. But the thought process guiding those hands is what's important, and you simply cannot CANNOT blindly assume that the presence of a tool is the defining factor.

This is what I see being expressed and what I'm objecting to. Its like saying well PSVR exists so lets make everything be in VR or have a VR mode. FUCKING NO!

Its not to deny there are potential benefits, its just the assumption of inferiority that annoys the piss out of me. Its offensively stupid and shallow-minded.

Choice to limit scope vs needing to limit scope is the factor in this.

Also these flagship games have traditionally carried the moniker of pushing their platforms. This is the goal of 1st party, sell the brand as a whole, demonstrate what’s possible. They certainly did each past gen. This is no longer the case on PS5. The hardware will not be stretched beyond superficial GPU bells and whistles. This is the sum and substance of it.

 

[DavidGzz]

Xbox doing cross gen and the snowball effect of Game Pass forced their hand in my opinion. Sometimes competition sucks for hardcore gamers. This is one of those times.

 

[Reindeer]

Anyone who's worked in game-dev knows that design has barely changed in two decades. Presentation and scope have improved greatly, but the fundamentals.... not so much. The idea that faster CPU's and more capable GPU's is going to radically change every game going forwards is laughable.

100% agree. People who thought game design was suddenly gonna change and we would get groundbreaking new game design were fooling themselves. If anything we'll just get more refinement on things we already have. I'm more upset about cross gen holding back full potential of visuals, presentation and world complexity, but this whole design thing is something I never really bought into.

 

[Sinthor]

Yes. Because all the handwringing is based on the presupposition that somehow you're missing out. Which as I've explained has no basis whatsoever in reality.




No, you're not informed! Not in the slightestt!

Do you know what the design goals are for these unpublished games? Were you party to the design and team meetings? Have you ever worked in commercial game-dev?

I have. For over 20 years. And it doesn't work like you seem think it does. If your brief is to showcase a particular aspect of the tech you end up enslaved by it; it becomes the point of the exercise not a thing that (rightfully) facilitates and enriches the creative goals of the project.





Like what exactly? The only thing intrinsic to Rift Apart's design is the ability to near seamlessly transition between locations via the titular rifts. You honestly think that shoehorning that into melee combat orientated titles like GoW would be more than a shallow gimmick? Really? Same deal with Horizon. Do you want Aloy to fight robot dinosaurs in a primitive post apocalyptic dystopia or do you want her to be zapping between dimensions willy-nilly?

Have you even thought this through?

Like I said earlier. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. That line of thinking was what led to motion controls getting wedged clumsily into a lot of games that gained nothing from them during the PS360/Wii era!

Like I said, starting out with a brief or an intent to showcase a particular piece of tech is as often a detriment to the end result as a boon. Rift Apart is a great showcase, but its built around it, and happens to be a pretty natural fit for the property. This is not true for every game.




Actually they don't. There's a difference between a PS4 game provisioned with a runtime profile for forwards compatibility and a PS5 version of a PS4 game. There is no equivalent to smart delivery on Playstation. You can have a PS4 and PS5 version installed at the same time. If they wanted to add or change stuff, they could do. That they don't is more about optics and perception than anything else.




What, like the underwater stuff in Horizon: Forbidden West. You think you're getting that level of texture detail and scene density on PS4? Hmmm....


Anyone who's worked in game-dev knows that design has barely changed in two decades. Presentation and scope have improved greatly, but the fundamentals.... not so much. The idea that faster CPU's and more capable GPU's is going to radically change every game going forwards is laughable.

I mean for all the yak about what Rift Apart is doing, Portal explored much the same ground back in 2007. The PS5 allows for a much visually richer implementation, but conceptually I don't see anything that's too dissimilar.




And what I'm saying is don't mistake a tool for the entirety of the construction.

Tools are great, they can allow you to do stuff faster and better than you can with your bare hands alone. But the thought process guiding those hands is what's important, and you simply cannot CANNOT blindly assume that the presence of a tool is the defining factor.

This is what I see being expressed and what I'm objecting to. Its like saying well PSVR exists so lets make everything be in VR or have a VR mode. FUCKING NO!

Its not to deny there are potential benefits, its just the assumption of inferiority that annoys the piss out of me. Its offensively stupid and shallow-minded.

Well, I won't respond to all your other insulting bullshit, because it doesn't matter. Must be interesting to be a person who has to limit their big and bad self to digital forums. But, whatever floats your boat. All that matters truly is the last piece that you said. I said that we won't be getting what we WOULD get if PS5 was the sole focus. You can't argue that and you don't. Your point in response about mistaking a tool for the entirety of the construction is the one salient point you make....but as usual you're tilting against the windmills, because no one has said anything of the sort. I haven't seen anyone say these games won't be beautiful, or that they'll suck and I certainly didn't. Just highlighted the limitations that will be in place. You know this, especially if you have been in that industry for all these years. That's all there is to it. You can redirect to talking just about load times in R&C like that's the only thing that game is doing that we haven't seen before all you like and it still doesn't change anything.

The only other thing I've really said is that this IS a departure from how Sony has operated in the past. I see the business sense of it and that's fine. But it IS different. They've said all the claptrap about supporting previous generations in the past before as well, but they've never done THIS.

In the end, we'll see buddy. Let's see how 1st party games at mid and late generation compare to Horizon and God of War that you don't believe will have any compromises and let's see if they actually have any NEW features that we didn't see in previous generations and if they look a significant cut above....or not. That's where the ultimate proof will be in any case. What we say and flap our digital gums about in these forums, really doesn't matter.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Its still a fallacious argument where factoring in more resources at the outset must produce a better end result than one that receives the benefit of the same resources later on in development.

You cannot treat a hypothetical, as a certainty. Especially not with game-dev.

Not every game need, nor should, be built like Rift Apart. Its entirely possible for an enhanced version of high-quality PS4 game to be better than one built exclusively for PS5.

People need to get past this superficial belief that the technology used to create the illusion and the entertainment is the significant element.
Its not that at all, its simply about having a clear vision and executing on it as flawlessly as humanly possible.

Clear,

Why is it so hard for these people to let go of this myth. Is it because they don't see what's really happening at the developer level? I feel like it's common sense when you pay attention to the evolution of games and how they appear and play across all platforms and not just one. The majority of the gaming industry is made up of 3rd party developers who has to compile to multiple SKUs at the end of the day. Why is it so hard to believe that these companies aren't concerned about the SKU when they are developing the game?

 

[Sinthor]

Clear,

Why is it so hard for these people to let go of this myth. Is it because they don't see what's really happening at the developer level? I feel like it's common sense when you pay attention to the evolution of games and how they appear and play across all platforms and not just one. The majority of the gaming industry is made up of 3rd party developers who has to compile to multiple SKUs at the end of the day. Why is it so hard to believe that these companies aren't concerned about the SKU when they are developing the game?

So you're saying that developers 'aren't concerned about the SKU when they are developing the game?' So that would mean that they develop a vision that can be accomplished across all SKU's and then execute on that, correct? Talking about 3rd party multi-platform developers at any rate..is that right? Trying to make sure I understand your point.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

100% agree. People who thought game design was suddenly gonna change and we would get groundbreaking new game design were fooling themselves. If anything we'll just get more refinement on things we already have. I'm more upset about cross gen holding back full potential of visuals and presentation and world complexity, but this whole design thing is something I never really bought into.

Cerny said game design would change.

There would no longer be winding corridors to load the game in background. Only what you see would be loaded in ram, changing as you move around.

Are you implying this was mostly marketing?

 

[VFXVeteran]

Well, I won't respond to all your other insulting bullshit, because it doesn't matter. Must be interesting to be a person who has to limit their big and bad self to digital forums. But, whatever floats your boat. All that matters truly is the last piece that you said. I said that we won't be getting what we WOULD get if PS5 was the sole focus. You can't argue that and you don't. Your point in response about mistaking a tool for the entirety of the construction is the one salient point you make....but as usual you're tilting against the windmills, because no one has said anything of the sort. I haven't seen anyone say these games won't be beautiful, or that they'll suck and I certainly didn't. Just highlighted the limitations that will be in place. You know this, especially if you have been in that industry for all these years. That's all there is to it. You can redirect to talking just about load times in R&C like that's the only thing that game is doing that we haven't seen before all you like and it still doesn't change anything.

The only other thing I've really said is that this IS a departure from how Sony has operated in the past. I see the business sense of it and that's fine. But it IS different. They've said all the claptrap about supporting previous generations in the past before as well, but they've never done THIS.

In the end, we'll see buddy. Let's see how 1st party games at mid and late generation compare to Horizon and God of War that you don't believe will have any compromises and let's see if they actually have any NEW features that we didn't see in previous generations and if they look a significant cut above....or not. That's where the ultimate proof will be in any case. What we say and flap our digital gums about in these forums, really doesn't matter.

Clear - it is a waste of time trying to tell these armchair developers how games are designed. They'll never believe reality because they want to stay fixated with their platform of choice. Always Sony.. never Xbox, never Nintendo, never PC. I've informed the mods of my concern.

 

[Sinthor]

Clear - it is a waste of time trying to tell these armchair developers how games are designed. They'll never believe reality because they want to stay fixated with their platform of choice. Always Sony.. never Xbox, never Nintendo, never PC. I've informed the mods of my concern.

Kindly explain WTF my post has to do with what you just said?

 

[VFXVeteran]

So you're saying that developers 'aren't concerned about the SKU when they are developing the game?'

I'm not going to speak about this because Clear is a developer and whatever he tells you is what I would tell you.

 

[Reindeer]

Cerny said game design would change.

There would no longer be winding corridors to load the game in background. Only what you see would be loaded in ram, changing as you move around.

Are you implying this was mostly marketing?

What you're talking about are annoyances of current game design, so removing them would be improving current game design and not changing it. It's like elevator ride in Mass Effect, we can skip them now in Legendary Edition, but that doesn't mean we have a new game design. Think about like having a track, but now you can take shortcuts. Yes, we'll probably see a lot of quality of life improvement, but underlying game structure and design will likely remain the same. There maybe one or two games that revolutionise game design, but I would imagine we'll still get the same stuff with better visuals, presentation and overall complexity when it comes to 99% of the games. Ratchet has tried to bring something new, but to some extent it's been done before and many reviewers have said it's serves little purpose and hasn't been fully utilised.

 

[Sinthor]

I'm not going to speak about this because Clear is a developer and whatever he tells you is what I would tell you.

Amazing day...two supposed developers that can't frame a cogent argument and resort to ad-hominems and emotional hysteria. Somehow feeling personally challenged by other people's opinions? And Sony defense, really? Have you SEEN what thread you're in, sir? Hardly a pro-Sony topic being discussed. But whatever man. You do you.

Have a good night.

 

[Shmunter]

What you're talking about are annoyances of current game design, so removing them would be improving current game design and not changing it. It's like elevator ride in Mass Effect, we can skip them now in Legendary Edition, but that doesn't mean we have a new game design. Think about like having a track, but now you can take shortcuts. Yes, we'll probably see a lot of quality of life improvement, but underlying game structure and design will likely remain the same. There maybe one or two games that revolutionise game design, but I would imagine we'll still get the same stuff with better visuals, presentation and overall complexity when it comes to 99% of the games. Ratchet has tried to bring something new, but to some extent it's been done before and many reviewers have said it's serves little purpose and hasn't been fully utilised.

Game ‘design’ is not however restricted to gameplay only. We only have two hands and so many buttons on a controller, and can only interact with what our brain can comprehend. There will always be limits.

Game design is also systems, physics, levels, gfx. God of War will still be a brawler, it will play as a brawler. But when you have a bigger canvas and more tools at your disposal you can start implementing more into your core gameplay. Destruction, physics, fluid & fire simulation, more complex npc behaviours. The further you go down the line of hardware capability, the more on the chopping block, and vice versa.

 

[Sinthor]

Game ‘design’ is not however restricted to gameplay only. We only have two hands and so many buttons on a controller, and can only interact with what our brain can comprehend. There will always be limits.

Game design is also systems, physics, levels, gfx. God of War will still be a brawler, it will play as a brawler. But when you have a bigger canvas and more tools at your disposal you can start implementing more into your core gameplay. Destruction, physics, fluid & fire simulation, more complex npc behaviours. The further you go down the line of hardware capability, the more on the chopping block, and vice versa.

I'm hopeful that VR will continue to evolve and someday provide a more effective input than a controller and also enable more functionality. Because you're dead right....there's only so much you can do with a controller and the limited buttons. You can map more functions than we see to day but that increases the complexity. So either some aspect of design we haven't seen yet would have to arise to allow new functions with the controller or...we need a new type of controller or input. Unfortunately, I think we're quite a ways away from the "Ready Player One" type of control in games but that kind of thing no longer seems as ludicrous as it once was. I do think we could get there or close to there in our lifetimes. We'll see.

 

[Kappa]

Sony should have released their series s considering its all multi gen for the most part. Would've sold millions

 

[Sinthor]

Sony should have released their series s considering its all multi gen for the most part. Would've sold millions

If they're going to keep focusing 1st party on PS4 as well, they should make the PS4 PRO into the ultra-cheap Sony console (assuming they can with the cost of the hardware). I don't think that's a good way for them to go though. A lot really depends on what gets announced NEXT. Ok, so we know Horizon and GoW will be cross-generational. But what comes NEXT? And will THAT be PS4/PS5 as well? Sony hopefully will get back to having their first party developers showcase the new hardware. We'll see.

 

[Reindeer]

If they're going to keep focusing 1st party on PS4 as well, they should make the PS4 PRO into the ultra-cheap Sony console (assuming they can with the cost of the hardware). I don't think that's a good way for them to go though. A lot really depends on what gets announced NEXT. Ok, so we know Horizon will be cross-generational. But what comes NEXT? And will THAT be PS4/PS5 as well? Sony hopefully will get back to having their first party developers showcase the new hardware. We'll see.

Imagine PS4 still around in 2023 lol. I highly doubt that will happen with first party when it comes to AAA. I always theorised though that Pro consoles we might get this gen will come with us into next gen. If PS4 can hang around for 9-10 years then I don't see why a console released in 2024 won't be around for 10-15 years. There won't be factors like HDD holding it back. This is especially likely with things like upscaling and machine learning becoming more common. The term "console generation" is bound to lose its meaning in the future imo.

 

[HawarMiran]

Sony should have released their series s considering its all multi gen for the most part. Would've sold millions

You think the digital edition doesn't cover that area? 100 dollar more give or take for a far better console ( IMO)

 

[vaibhavpisal]

Game design is also systems, physics, levels, gfx. God of War will still be a brawler, it will play as a brawler. But when you have a bigger canvas and more tools at your disposal you can start implementing more into your core gameplay. Destruction, physics, fluid & fire simulation, more complex npc behaviours. The further you go down the line of hardware capability, the more on the chopping block, and vice versa.

You will likely have all this improved on PS5 version.

Except NPC behaviour as that could change gameplay. But AI changes mostly feel subtle, last gen AI already is quiet good.

 

[SlimySnake]

Amazing day...two supposed developers that can't frame a cogent argument and resort to ad-hominems and emotional hysteria. Somehow feeling personally challenged by other people's opinions? And Sony defense, really? Have you SEEN what thread you're in, sir? Hardly a pro-Sony topic being discussed. But whatever man. You do you.

Have a good night.

Sinthor, you should be ashamed of yourself for not listening to developers. Ashamed I say!

We MUST listen to developers. Developers like:

The multiplayer designer at Infinity Ward:



Senior Technical Producer at Crytek:





Even indie devs:

In an interview with Wccftech, Exor Studios executive Paweł Lekki discussed development of The Riftbreaker survival game on the Xbox Series X and S. While the process for the former had apparently been quite straightforward, dealing with the cutdown console was more problematic. Lekki had this to say about working with the Xbox Series S:

The size of the memory that is available in the XSS is the actual determining point for the entire console generation as gameplay features have to be fitted to the lowest spec. From the point of view of a developer it would be much easier if there was a single XSX SKU.

Then there are devs at the prestigious MS studio ID Tech:

The memory situation is a big issue on the S. The much lower amount of memory and the split memory banks with drastically slower speeds will be a major issue. Aggressively lowering the render resolutions will marginally help but will not completely counteract the deficiencies.

— Billy Khan (@billykhan) September 10, 2020

Also "it always scaled on PC" is nonsense. Every AAA game in the past decade or so has their assets made once so they run on min spec. Increasing sample counts a bit here and there for high settings isn't what you could truly have done with more power. Min spec matters.

— Axel Gneiting (@axelgneiting) September 10, 2020

Series S has an identical CPU, identical SSD speeds and I/O, but worse GPU and RAM configuration and it has generated such concern from developers. One can only imagine how a last gen console like the PS4 thats got a shitty CPU with just 1/8th the power of the PS5 CPU and 1/100th of the power the PS5 SSD and I/O would hold back cross gen games. One can only imagine because one is not allowed to speculate or discuss it for one is just an arm chair developer.

 

[Reindeer]

Sinthor, you should be ashamed of yourself for not listening to developers. Ashamed I say!

We MUST listen to developers. Developers like:

The multiplayer designer at Infinity Ward:



Senior Technical Producer at Crytek:





Even indie devs:

In an interview with Wccftech, Exor Studios executive Paweł Lekki discussed development of The Riftbreaker survival game on the Xbox Series X and S. While the process for the former had apparently been quite straightforward, dealing with the cutdown console was more problematic. Lekki had this to say about working with the Xbox Series S:



Then there are devs at the prestigious MS studio ID Tech:




Series S has an identical CPU, identical SSD speeds and I/O, but worse GPU and RAM configuration and it has generated such concern from developers. One can only imagine how a last gen console like the PS4 thats got a shitty CPU with just 1/8th the power of the PS5 CPU and 1/100th of the power the PS5 SSD and I/O would hold back cross gen games. One can only imagine because one is not allowed to speculate or discuss it for one is just an arm chair developer.

Series S was a huge mistake. Just thinking about that box dictating how 95% of games are developed for the next 9-10 years gives me a huge headache. I have a special grudge with Phill Spencer because of this.

 

[Sinthor]

Sinthor, you should be ashamed of yourself for not listening to developers. Ashamed I say!

We MUST listen to developers. Developers like:

The multiplayer designer at Infinity Ward:



Senior Technical Producer at Crytek:





Even indie devs:

In an interview with Wccftech, Exor Studios executive Paweł Lekki discussed development of The Riftbreaker survival game on the Xbox Series X and S. While the process for the former had apparently been quite straightforward, dealing with the cutdown console was more problematic. Lekki had this to say about working with the Xbox Series S:



Then there are devs at the prestigious MS studio ID Tech:




Series S has an identical CPU, identical SSD speeds and I/O, but worse GPU and RAM configuration and it has generated such concern from developers. One can only imagine how a last gen console like the PS4 thats got a shitty CPU with just 1/8th the power of the PS5 CPU and 1/100th of the power the PS5 SSD and I/O would hold back cross gen games. One can only imagine because one is not allowed to speculate or discuss it for one is just an arm chair developer.

I see you sir, and I raise you....



Boy you know what...I kind of MISS those days! This guy was funny as HELL!

 

[Velius]

How dare they say something I don't like. Don't they know who the fuck I am?

 

[Velius]

I see you sir, and I raise you....



Boy you know what...I kind of MISS those days! This guy was funny as HELL!

 

[vaibhavpisal]

Sinthor, you should be ashamed of yourself for not listening to developers. Ashamed I say!

We MUST listen to developers. Developers like:

The multiplayer designer at Infinity Ward:



Senior Technical Producer at Crytek:





Even indie devs:

In an interview with Wccftech, Exor Studios executive Paweł Lekki discussed development of The Riftbreaker survival game on the Xbox Series X and S. While the process for the former had apparently been quite straightforward, dealing with the cutdown console was more problematic. Lekki had this to say about working with the Xbox Series S:



Then there are devs at the prestigious MS studio ID Tech:




Series S has an identical CPU, identical SSD speeds and I/O, but worse GPU and RAM configuration and it has generated such concern from developers. One can only imagine how a last gen console like the PS4 thats got a shitty CPU with just 1/8th the power of the PS5 CPU and 1/100th of the power the PS5 SSD and I/O would hold back cross gen games. One can only imagine because one is not allowed to speculate or discuss it for one is just an arm chair developer.

Series S was a huge mistake. Just thinking about that box dictating how 95% of games are developed for the next 9-10 years gives me a huge headache. I have a special grudge with Phill Spencer because of this.

Completely off topic and unacceptable criticism of Series S on this thread.

I think I will make a thread about both next gen only games (Ratchet and Clank, Returnal) and how similar games would work perfectly on it. If I could find enough stuff to write that is.

 

[SlimySnake]

Completely off topic and unacceptable criticism of Series S on this thread.

I think I will make a thread about both next gen only games (Ratchet and Clank, Returnal) and how similar games would work perfectly on it. If I could find enough stuff to write that is.

how is it off topic? We are literally discussing developers talking about GPUs and memory configurations in a NEXT GEN console holding back next gen. Surely, we can apply that logic towards LAST GEN consoles with lacking GPU horsepower and memory configurations.

Not to mention the fact that two of these quotes are literally about min spec holding back next gen.

( granted transition into next gen is always bottlenecked by last gen for awhile )

Also "it always scaled on PC" is nonsense. Every AAA game in the past decade or so has their assets made once so they run on min spec. Increasing sample counts a bit here and there for high settings isn't what you could truly have done with more power. Min spec matters.

It is literally what we are discussing. How is that off topic?

 

[Sinthor]

Completely off topic and unacceptable criticism of Series S on this thread.

I think I will make a thread about both next gen only games (Ratchet and Clank, Returnal) and how similar games would work perfectly on it. If I could find enough stuff to write that is.

You know....I haven't seen this talked about yet, but mentioning Returnal as well, I'm wondering...Maybe Sony's idea this time is to release SOME 1st party as exclusive like Returnal and R&C while putting some others, particularly the BIG SELLERS like GoW and Horizon on BOTH consoles at least for the first few years? I hadn't really thought about it it but we have seen kind of a hybrid approach here. So maybe they haven't commented so much because they've ALWAYS said these same things but this time are really serious about extending support for the PS4? Seems to be this way.....

 

[Reindeer]

Completely off topic and unacceptable criticism of Series S on this thread.

I think I will make a thread about both next gen only games (Ratchet and Clank, Returnal) and how similar games would work perfectly on it. If I could find enough stuff to write that is.

Ratchet and Returnal came out this year, but you're talking about a console that's supposed to be with us for the next 10 years. It's almost like games didn't get more ambitious and more demanding last gen after 2014. I mean you just have to look how Xbox One is barely dragging along the last few years and it was far more powerful compared to PS4 than Series S is compared to PS5 and Series X. I'm sure you'll also ignore so many industry veterans sharing their concern. Go ahead, make your thread I guess.

 

[Clear]

Clear - it is a waste of time trying to tell these armchair developers how games are designed. They'll never believe reality because they want to stay fixated with their platform of choice. Always Sony.. never Xbox, never Nintendo, never PC. I've informed the mods of my concern.

I don't like seeing the creativity cheapened by making it a secondary consideration behind the hardware caps.

Honestly I feel DF have a lot to answer for, because their approach is so heavily tilted toward effect as a product of technology as opposed to a result of ingenuity and artfulness. You can tell from it that their background is in benchmarking components and not coding/content creation. It results in a narrow spectrum of appreciation, that to me misses the forest for the trees.

In the end it results in the sort of woolly thinking we have in this thread. Where the argument is rooted in an intangible, undefined sense of somehow "missing out" because every facet of the new tech isn't used to the fullest. Which of course is nonsensical.

 

[Shmunter]

I don't like seeing the creativity cheapened by making it a secondary consideration behind the hardware caps.

Honestly I feel DF have a lot to answer for, because their approach is so heavily tilted toward effect as a product of technology as opposed to a result of ingenuity and artfulness. You can tell from it that their background is in benchmarking components and not coding/content creation. It results in a narrow spectrum of appreciation, that to me misses the forest for the trees.

In the end it results in the sort of woolly thinking we have in this thread. Where the argument is rooted in an intangible, undefined sense of somehow "missing out" because every facet of the new tech isn't used to the fullest. Which of course is nonsensical.

So you don’t see increase in hardware technology as an enabler to furthering software technology?

Or are you saying creativity is greater than any technology? Any reason why these would be in competition instead of in synergy?

What are you saying?!?

 

[Clear]

So you don’t see increase in hardware technology as an enabler to furthering software technology?

Or are you saying creativity is greater than any technology? Any reason why these would be in competition instead of in synergy?

What are you saying?!?

The overarching goal is to create entertainment.
Entertainment is created through illusion.
Illusion can be facilitated by technique or technology.
The bedrock is of course labour.

Technology can expedite labour, but it also can become a detriment when its exploitation becomes a distraction from the mission goal or an end in its own right.
In short its a tool, the use of which can be both additive or subtractive to the quality of the final product.

The best tech does not ensure the best end result, so fixating on it is an error. Especially when in terms of scope, scale, and ambition the biggest last-gen games were already pushing the limits in terms of labour and economics.

As I've said in the past, the PS5 I/O stack's efficiency does open new doors in terms of game construction and flow, it can and should have lasting impact and benefits. However that isn't to say that it renders all previous design paradigms and methodologies redundant or obsolete, or that it absolutely has to be employed by every title going forwards.

 

[quest]

I don't like seeing the creativity cheapened by making it a secondary consideration behind the hardware caps.

Honestly I feel DF have a lot to answer for, because their approach is so heavily tilted toward effect as a product of technology as opposed to a result of ingenuity and artfulness. You can tell from it that their background is in benchmarking components and not coding/content creation. It results in a narrow spectrum of appreciation, that to me misses the forest for the trees.

In the end it results in the sort of woolly thinking we have in this thread. Where the argument is rooted in an intangible, undefined sense of somehow "missing out" because every facet of the new tech isn't used to the fullest. Which of course is nonsensical.

Digital foundry didn't cause this Jim I believe in genatations Ryan did. Then flooded the internet astroturfers to rip on Microsofts cross generation approach to damage their launch. He is the one who started this. If he was honest and didn't start this holy war against cross generation you wouldn't this negative attitude. Digital foundry is rightfully points out Sony hid the ps4 versions of these games. Blame Jim Ryan 100% he started this and watched it blow up on Microsoft and did nothing but hide his cross generation games and fan the flames.

 

[Clear]

Digital foundry didn't cause this Jim I believe in genatations Ryan did. Then flooded the internet astroturfers to rip on Microsofts cross generation approach to damage their launch. He is the one who started this. If he was honest and didn't start this holy war against cross generation you wouldn't this negative attitude. Digital foundry is rightfully points out Sony hid the ps4 versions of these games. Blame Jim Ryan 100% he started this and watched it blow up on Microsoft and did nothing but hide his cross generation games and fan the flames.

Go back and look at any of my posts explaining why I rate NXGamer way higher than DF. And no, its not platform partisanship, its because not only does Michael understand tech, he also appreciates technique and the value of looking at things holistically.

To your point, it doesn't matter to me "who started it", right is still right and wrong is still wrong. And given that Sony has in fact published several major PS5-only titles since launch I'd say they've held their end up as well as could be expected. Abandoning PS4 would be stupid at this point, period.

 

[martino]

Anyone who's worked in game-dev knows that design has barely changed in two decades. Presentation and scope have improved greatly, but the fundamentals.... not so much. The idea that faster CPU's and more capable GPU's is going to radically change every game going forwards is laughable.

near full amen. i would more say it can add will minor things here and there and i still think you can even see new genre appear
but that doesn't make all existing formulas obsolete and the odds that new potential forumula appear first and become the new AAA one is near void.

 

[FatKingBallman]

I just find it funny how people who I've known as PlayStation gamers on this forum are being called Xbots simply because they disagree with some directions that Sony is taking. It boggles my mind how some people think you can't criticise these mega corporations and simply have to go along with everything they say and do.

Yeah, because they have been wrong in some things and took Jim Ryans quote out of context. I don't care if i called them an Xbox fan, not Xbot like you did ( but anyway, my bad for this ), it is more baffling how PS fan ignore Ryan full quote which surely implied that PS4 will be supported in next comming period and also some PS fans claimed that Sony never release a cross-gen game until PS5 came out. Which is damn wrong. And also, people completely ignored PS5 only games released so far since launch. And therefore, "we believe in generations" is proved with released 4 exclusive next-gen only games so far. Of course there will be cross-gen games. And of course there will be next-gen games only. Like every damn console generation.
And i've mentioned in previous post, only outlier was GT7. Advertised as PS5 only title, what happened recently, who knows. Maybe Sony really decided recently and release it for PS4 too.

 

[BlackTron]

I get why they're doing cross-gen games and business-wise I agree with a mixed strategy. Some games cross-gen to maximize sales, and some games next-gen exclusive to support the new console and aggressively expand its user base.

I don't agree with the dishonest/sneaky way they're doing it, or the titles they choose for it. I don't think GT7 should be a cross-gen game. If you want a PS4 GT game, you can play what's already out. GT should be a true console showcase.

I get that they don't want to limit sales, but in the bigger picture I find this to be a strategic error.

 

[Reindeer]

Yeah, because they have been wrong in some things and took Jim Ryans quote out of context. I don't care if i called them an Xbox fan, not Xbot like you did ( but anyway, my bad for this ), it is more baffling how PS fan ignore Ryan full quote which surely implied that PS4 will be supported in next comming period and also some PS fans claimed that Sony never release a cross-gen game until PS5 came out. Which is damn wrong. And also, people completely ignored PS5 only games released so far since launch. And therefore, "we believe in generations" is proved with released 4 exclusive next-gen only games so far. Of course there will be cross-gen games. And of course there will be next-gen games only. Like every damn console generation.
And i've mentioned in previous post, only outlier was GT7. Advertised as PS5 only title, what happened recently, who knows. Maybe Sony really decided recently and release it for PS4 too.

Lets not kid ourselves, Sony knew exactly what they were doing, they purposefully did not announce those games as cross gen initially because they were trying to get people to buy PS5s. You can try to sugar coat it, but they were being deceiving in their marketing and made many people believe these games were PS5 only. This coupled with them talking about believing in generations made people certain that these games would be PS5 exclusive. It's a scammy marketing tactic, no way around it.

 

[FatKingBallman]

Lets not kid ourselves, Sony knew exactly what they were doing, they purposefully did not announce those games as cross gen initially because they were trying to get people to buy PS5s. You can try to sugar coat it, but they were being deceiving in their marketing and made many people believe these games were PS5 only. This coupled with them talking about believing in generations made people certain that these games would be PS5 exclusive. It's a scammy marketing tactic, no way around it.

Let not kid ourselves, VAST MAJORITY of people took Jim Ryan quote out of context. Let not kid ourselves that VAST MAJORITY of people didn't read Jim Ryans interview. EOD. Sony didn't announced HZD, Miles, Sackboy, GOW as PS only titles. You can blame only customers who have thought that games would be PS5 only ( i wasn't suprised because i knew what Jim Ryan said ). Therefore HZD, Miles, Sackboy were straight up ahead announced as cross-gen games. But people ignored statement that PS4 will be supported back then and also question was with which games before Sonys announcement

 

[Reindeer]

Let not kid ourselves, VAST MAJORITY of people took Jim Ryan quote out of context. Let not kid ourselves that VAST MAJORITY of people didn't read Jim Ryans interview. EOD. Sony didn't announced HZD, Miles, Sackboy, GOW as PS only titles. You can blame only customers who have thought that games would be PS5 only. Therefore HZD, Miles, Sackboy were straight up ahead announced as cross-gen games. But people ignored statement that PS4 will be supported.

I see you gonna kindly ignore the fact that Sony was purposefully being deceiving and not announcing those games for PS4. They obviously announced those games for PS5 and yet kept PS4 announcement hidden. You then somehow have the audacity to shift the blame for this on consumers. Can't take what you say seriously when you can't even admit the obvious and call out the bs of these mega corporations.

 

[FatKingBallman]

I see you gonna kindly ignore the fact that Sony was purposefully being deceiving and not announcing those games for PS4. They obviously announced those games for PS5 and yet kept PS4 announcement hidden. You then somehow have the audacity to shift the blame for this on consumers. Can't take what you say seriously when you can't even admit the obvious and call out the bs of these mega corporations.

Also can't take people seriously like you who took Jim Ryan statement out of context and also can't admit the obvious. Consumers sometimes can be ignorant fully. Like you.

Where the fuck in this conference Sony announced games are PS5 only ( Outside of gameplay demos and trailer which were running on PS5 to show what PS5 can do, of course you'll do that for first showing ). How the fuck people got a conclusion that games will be PS5 only if they were just a showcase for PS5?

 

[Reindeer]

Also can't take people seriously like you who took Jim Ryan statement out of context and also can't admit the obvious. Consumers sometimes can be ignorant fully. Like you.

Where is this conference Sony announced games are PS5 only ( Outside of gameplay demos and trailer which were running on PS5 to show what PS5 can do, of course you'll do that for first showing ). How did people got a conclusion that games will be PS5 only if they were just a showcase for PS5???

What did I take out of context? The fact that Sony knew about PS4 versions and didn't announce them while they announced them for their lesser titles? Lol, you're capping so hard that it's laughable. It's ok, you don't become a traitor if you say Sony messed up and internationally misled people.

 

[FatKingBallman]

What did I take out of context? The fact that Sony knew about PS4 versions and didn't announce them while they announced them for their lesser titles? Lol, you're capping so hard that it's laughable. It's ok, you don't become a traitor if you say Sony messed up and internationally misled people.

Cut the crap here. You took Jim Ryan (like vast majority here) quote out of context. I've asked you a question : show me where they've announced during conference that Miles Morales, Sackboy and Horizon FW are PS5 games only. Go see the trailers for Horizon, Sackboy and Miles and you'll see this in the end - PlayStation exclusive. Does PlayStation Exclusive means PS5 only? It can mean both or not. Later was clarified

 

[Reindeer]

Cut the crap here. You took Jim Ryan ( like vast majority here ) quote out of context. I've asked you a question. Show me where they've announced during conference that Miles Morales, Sackboy and Horizon FW are PS5 games only. Go see the trailers for Horizon, Sackboy and Miles and you'll see this in the end - PlayStation exclusives. Does PlayStation Exclusive means PS5 only?

Why you mention Spiderman and Sackboy for which they announced PS4 versions, but why didn't they announce same for their other major games? Lol, you wanna pretend like that didn't happen. All this time you keep dodging the fact that Sony purposefully withheld the fact that some of their major games would come to PS4 as well. You trying so hard, but your capping is there for all to see.

 

[FatKingBallman]

Why you mention Spiderman and Sackboy for which they announced PS4 versions, but why didn't they announce same for their other major games? Lol, you wanna pretend like that didn't happen. All this time you keep dodging the fact that Sony purposefully withheld the fact that some of their major games would come to PS4 as well. You trying so hard, but your capping is there for all to see.

Because they were showcased a year ago at conference. PlayStation exclusive can mean either is PS5 only, either is PS4 only or both. Sony clarified few months later which is which. Demon's Souls was announced as PlayStation exclusive. Later they've clarified it is coming to PS5 only. EOD. You can blame only yourself who didn't read. You're trying so hard to be wrong. Please continue.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Cut the crap here. You took Jim Ryan (like vast majority here) quote out of context. I've asked you a question : show me where they've announced during conference that Miles Morales, Sackboy and Horizon FW are PS5 games only. Go see the trailers for Horizon, Sackboy and Miles and you'll see this in the end - PlayStation exclusive. Does PlayStation Exclusive means PS5 only? It can mean both or not. Later was clarified

LOL. Later clarified. Ya, 3 months later in September when PS5 was only a few months from launch.

Why not tell gamers in June (when the summer 2020 show happened), that PS4 versions are coming too? Same goes for Ragnarok. But that one wasnt told until last week.

And Sony said GT7 is a PS5 exclusive in their Dec 7 2020 video. Cant hide from that one. And as per articles these games have been in development with PS4 the whole time, yet they delayed communication.

 

[Reindeer]

Because they were showcased a year ago at conference. PlayStation exclusive can mean either is PS5 only, either is PS4 only or both. Sony clarified few months later which is which. Demon's Souls was announced as PlayStation exclusive. Later they've clarified it is coming to PS5 only. EOD. You can blame only yourself who didn't read. You're trying so hard to be wrong. Please continue.

But they clearly said they were coming to PS5 and didn't announce them for PS4 when at the same PS5 reveal event they announced PS4 versions for some of their other PS5 games. At this point you just wanna pretend to be blind. They also failed to mention those games coming to PS4 in many articles and interviews they did afterwards. How obvious can it be?