RustyNails
Member
^
You are talking to a guy who is open to employing a tactic explicitly banned under international criminal court.
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2014 Israel-Gaza Conflict [UN: 1,525+ Palestinian dead, mostly civilian; 66 Israeli]
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You are talking to a guy who is open to employing a tactic explicitly banned under international criminal court.
Yeap. Still to this day the scariest detective GAF post history collection I've ever witnessed. It's actually shocking.
shinobi602
Member
Welp.
StickSoldier
Member
Sorry, sorry, it's just sad to see people have that line of thinking. It shows the people who have a heart and those that don't.
equippedwithtowel
Member
Fucking shameful. Trudeau isn't surprising to me as he's gone into his shell once his lead stabilized; I expected better from if not Mulcair then Dewar, who has got some explaining to do if he wants my vote next time around.
Wow. I've never seen it all laid out like that -- I can't even fathom how a person could lack that much empathy.
Wow. I mean. Holy shit.
Thank you. I was looking for this post. The guy doesn't give two shit about Palestinian civilians.
CesspoolofHatred
Member
Oh, trust me, I've already seen that. I commented on it myself. We thought he was a war criminal at first, I also pointed out a quote that LOOKED LIKE it was advocating genocide, it was interesting times.
I'm just pressing him to provide his opinions and his sources. He's already skipped over one of my posts, though, so I'm not too hopeful. I wouldn't be surprised if he vanished from this topic like he did that one, though.
ANYWAYS, we should probably stop focusing on this, and focus more on the news coming out of Gaza, since this is what this topic is supposed to be about I think?
- A young boy is killed with no weapon found for being out late after curfew because as everyone is yelling to the boy to show himself one of the unit just opens fire so they all do
- Half the Unit goes back to base celebrating other half is devastated
- the IDF surrounds the house of the boy the next day to prevent the family from carrying his body to the cemetery because it is a Jewish Holiday
- Father comes out screaming at IDF in tears, pushes one of them and is automatically arrested
- The speaker later gets a call from his father congratulating him, because the IDF reports the incident as his unit having killed a terrorist and arrested another.
This is already intense, he is starting to have trouble speaking.
Please prove that Hamas uses Human shields.
And a guy who's home is under constant rocket fire. What Israel is doing right now (targeting civilians intentionally) is inexcusable, but it's not like Israel itself isn't under attack too.
I wish the conflict would just end =(.
Remind me of the civilian death tolls on both sides, again?
CesspoolofHatred
Member
Those numbers don't invalidate my point.
Don't think that's the case. Afaik he lives on one of the illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Aka on Palestinian land and not near Gaza or within internationally recognised Israel.
zer0blivion
Member
This is a fantastic article. I posted an interview with the author, Rashid Khalidi, earlier in the thread. He's been on Democracy Now! a few times and he knows his stuff.
http://www.democracynow.org/appearances/rashid_khalidi
StickSoldier
Member
I wish everyone in the world could just get along! But it'll take something major to change that. The innocent are stuck in a battle between two groups that want nothing but killing, and all we can do is sit back and watch it
It fucking sucks...Okay. That invalidates him as a human being now and he should be completely ignored? That seems to be the way you guys want to handle it.
Way to jump to the second inept point in a row.
Many are choosing to ignore him not because he isn't regarded as a human being, but because his viewpoints are oft disgusting, immoral, factually and intellectually vapid, mostly dishonest, and pushing a very hard line, extreme and dangerous viewpoint or narrative. That's a subjective decision posters can decide upon based on his post history, which they are entitled to do.
It's not every day you come across posters that admit to war crimes, hint at support of ethnic cleansing, or claim right to another's land because of religion reasons, etc.
Oh, right. I forgot that we had a resident genocide defense force here.
Carry on, then.
You didn't read my post if you thought I was defending Israel. Carry on indeed.
Not everything is "with us or against us".
gutter_trash
Banned
Canadian politician's stances on Israel are more about domestic pandering, not really anything to do about foreign affairs.
The majority of Jewish Canadians have voted Liberal. The Western half of Montreal votes Liberal always, Western Montreal has a large Jewish community. Irwin Cotler has been MP for many many years (retires next year)
Stephen Harper's Conservatives have taken the most hardline pro-Israel stand of them all, more than a Republican would, because they want the Jewish vote.
As for the NDP's Thomas Mulcair. His riding is Outremont in Montreal. Outremont has the largetst Hasidic community of all of Canada. So that is why Mulcair is pro-Israel, because he doesn't want to lose his seat in a former Liberal stronghold
Nevermind the fact that he's a sociopath who gets off on ethnic cleansing.
RustyNails
Member
What does this have to do with justification of warcrimes. I am expecting brevity in your response.
It means rockets aren't flying into the west bank. :|
I really am not getting your point. What is your point?
Does soul living in Israel in an area that may or may not have had rockets land near him justify the disgusting things he has said that are documented in his post?
EDIT: As for the content of his posts, almost everything he posts contains unsubstantiated assertions which he rarely if ever has supporting evidence to supply and even more rarely does he actually respond when being called out on it.
AstroNut325
Member
To the best of my knowledge this (most current) atrocity is the result of unsubstantiated claims from Israel of "missing" boys.
No country is going to take an aerial and ground invasion lightly. You expect Palestine to just sit idly while an invasion force moves in?
CesspoolofHatred
Member
He should be completely ignored because, in THIS very topic, he has ignored posts directed towards him and has ignored specific points, as well as insinuated that the hospitals in Gaza deserved bombing based on an unsubstantiated declaration that they were holding missiles. A lot of his declarations are unsubstantiated, actually. I haven't seen many sources from him.
He's not invalidated as a human being - I personally don't think there's ANYTHING that can "invalidate" someone as a member of their species - but from what has been demonstrated, he is far from credible. And that is what warrants ignoring him.
My point is, anyone that considers Israel to be their home is going to justify military action and they're not completely baseless for doing so. It's just such a shame the Israel military seems to be either incompetent or they have very different goals in mind from the ones they should have.
ramuh
Member
Two wrong and one right. I feel both Hamas and the Hawkish Israel Government as so so wrong, and the Fatah Government right. I was watching commentary today and they mentioned how perplexed they were that Israel wasn't doing hardly anything to put that relationship up with Fatah to basically illegitimate any Hamas argument there is.
To me I feel like Israel is missing a great opportunity train that would build some lasting peace to the region. Build up the secular Palestinian Government! Give them resources and ability to thrive, and you will probably see groups like Hamas become even more pariahs as pure objectors to true peace. But it seems the current Government is under pressure from it's hawkish allies in Government to not back down. It's like there blind. I don't know. Maybe it will take a change of Government for Israel to accept that there will be Palestinians living in the region and the best bet to secure peace/international legitimacy (when carrying out real operations against rocket attacks/tunnels) is right before them. The more deaths (ON both sides) will only widen the gap between them. And the same can be said by the other side (Hamas). True peace is not through terrorist actions. Sigh.
To me I feel like Israel is missing a great opportunity train that would build some lasting peace to the region. Build up the secular Palestinian Government! Give them resources and ability to thrive, and you will probably see groups like Hamas become even more pariahs as pure objectors to true peace. But it seems the current Government is under pressure from it's hawkish allies in Government to not back down. It's like there blind. I don't know. Maybe it will take a change of Government for Israel to accept that there will be Palestinians living in the region and the best bet to secure peace/international legitimacy (when carrying out real operations against rocket attacks/tunnels) is right before them. The more deaths (ON both sides) will only widen the gap between them. And the same can be said by the other side (Hamas). True peace is not through terrorist actions. Sigh.
StickSoldier
Member
Nm.
Yeah sorry, I misread it. I totally screwed that up.
Np man. My bad.
...NO. Please, PLEASE actually read my posts. I already CLEARLY said above that intentionally targeting civilians is inexcusable.
Edit: Sorry for yelling, it just seems like people want only to pick fights on these kinds of topics and it's frustrating.
That's not true. As is evidenced in this very thread. Eg with posters like Dude.
I'm British, but there's no way in hell I'm going to blindly support my government or military. I have my own conscience, moral compass and ethics, reason, intellect etc to help me form my opinions, and if need be, reject the official narrative, even if it proves unpopular.
1.) That is not why people, starting with me, are arguing to ignore soul. Did you read the things he has said? Have you seen the countless posts where he makes false assertions and refuses to supply any supporting evidence?
2.) This current escalation was based largely around false pretenses. Have you watched the Democracy Now video posted above and read that New Yorker article?
EDIT: Heres another good video which does a good job talking about the lead up to this current incursion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e_Wzx8kPnU
Israel would never do this as this is diametrically opposed to their goals in the region. The very last thing they want is a strong Palestine. They favor Fatah on the West Bank because they're easy to push around. A strong Gaza is Israel's worst nightmare, seeing as they could be supported by Iran and other Middle East powers opposed to Israel, making it very uncomfortable for them. Smashing up Gaza actually prevents it from becoming a credible threat.
ramuh
Member
The current Government's goals you mean. Can't they see that a strong Secular Government is exactly the kind of ally (sounds crazy i know) they would need? Think of it this way. If a future free Palestine is so entwined with Israel's own economy I HIGHLY doubt the people in charge would brook any terrorist acts or anything of the nature to happen (excluding the stupid actions of a few) to jeopardize their economic ties.
Listen. I feel historically the issues Israel had as a State over the years. But you have to take a look at the other side of the coin as well. If you don't your looking down the brutality barrel towards destruction for both sides! Cultivate the Palestinians! Make them depend on you economically not through embargoes! And that will give you the legitimacy to actually persecute (very harshly) those like that to blow themselves up or attack innocent Israelis.
CesspoolofHatred
Member
Of course. Nobody's really saying that an Israeli citizen cannot attempt to justify some sort of military action against missiles landing in their cities, nor that they're completely baseless for doing so. "Israel has the right to defend itself", and all that. That statement itself is not in question.
But some scales of military action, like what we're seeing right now in Gaza, are near-impossible to justify, and some of the reasoning (like implying that missiles being stored in hospitals and UN schools is a good reason to bomb them and kill refugees and UN workers) is close to baseless.
And it's the USES of "Israel has the right to defend itself" after every bombing, every dead cluster of civilians, that is being attacked. "Israel has the right to defend itself" can't be used to justify every single act against the Palestinians, but it's used as a catch-all anyways. stretched well beyond any sort of reasonable breaking point. To where we can also say that Palestinians also have the right to defend themselves, and we wouldn't be wrong. Because right now, Israel is VERY much on the offensive.
The major issue with this idea is: why would the Palestinians EVER want to depend on Israel in ANY way after what's been happening in Gaza? There is no trust. There NEEDS to be a third party involved in this.
equippedwithtowel
Member
Montreal totally slipped my mind. Fair point.
Israel could never trust them, largely because of the harm Israel itself has inflicted on them over the years. Revenge isn't a rational emotion, and Israel would know that no matter how well they treated them from now forward, the people of Palestine would have plenty of reasons for revenge. Essentially, Israel has already dug this hole too deep for a peaceful solution to get them out of it. The only thing they can do is starve Gaza like you would a prisoner of war, keeping them too weak to ever launch a rebellion that has a chance of success.
ramuh
Member
Ok. That is being Obtuse. There is mistrust on both sides. Hamas bombings in the 2000s etc. It's not that one sided (these attacks are). I know that for the secular government to "win" with it's people to secure peace with it's powerful neighbor would be to secure some "victory". LIKE settlement issues. Or whatever. The point I'm trying to make is there is a way to last peace. And people on both sides of this argument aren't (or not caring) seeing it.
curlyfriski
Banned
The Guardian is saying that the sole Gaza power plant has been destroyed, and I think the significance of this event is being lost in this thread.
The Washington Post, in a story about the power plant, quotes a Gazan political scientist saying:
To me, this development seems like confirmation of what Netanyahu's current strategy is: spark a humanitarian crisis that leads to either Hamas' overthrow by their own people or their capitulation to preserve their own power. It would also suggest that the bombardment will continue for a while and the suffering in Gaza is going to get much worse. I was going to make a thread about it but screwed up and posted it unfinished.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/gaza-power-plant-destroyed-israeli-airstrike-100-palestinians-dead
The Washington Post, in a story about the power plant, quotes a Gazan political scientist saying:
They also have an unnamed senior Israeli official saying something quite similar:
To me, this development seems like confirmation of what Netanyahu's current strategy is: spark a humanitarian crisis that leads to either Hamas' overthrow by their own people or their capitulation to preserve their own power. It would also suggest that the bombardment will continue for a while and the suffering in Gaza is going to get much worse. I was going to make a thread about it but screwed up and posted it unfinished.
ramuh
Member
When the fuel (they said a few days worth) to run the backup generators run out then you will see real problems start to happen.
Because it's impossible. Because even if some people on both sides embraced peace, there would be others nursing unresolved grudges. The hardliners in Israel would claim that once the people of Gaza get back on their feet, they would bring rocket fire down on Israel again, and there's bound to be extremist groups in Gaza that would deliver on that promise after seeing their families murdered and their homes destroyed. The only way I see this working would be a one state solution, bringing together Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank, but since this would create a Jewish minority, Israel would never go for it.
curlyfriski
Banned
Yeah...what happens when hospitals run out of power? I know they get some power from Israel and Egypt, but the Israeli lines were damaged and I have no idea if it's technically possible for the Egyptian supply to be increased to make up some of the difference, even if the Egyptian government were willing.
MisterFalcon
Member
At the end of the Yom Kippur war the Egyptians were decisively defeated with their army trapped in Sinai as the IDF had crossed the Suez Canal to cut them off. But the initial success had given Sadat enough credit to be able to negotiate a peace and sell it as a peace forced onto Israel by mighty Egypt. Their 'lightning advance' was only about 10 km into the Sinai and they had no intention to move further.
ramuh
Member
Well giving the hate towards one another I propose a one State Government modeled after the Lebanon one. Where they split the government up and give a Druze/Muslim/Christian a part of Government. And even with Gaza and the West Bank I don't think the Jewish people would be a minority (not sure).
I think they could come up with a one state solution that would allow Jewish people to hold the majority of the power, and that's probably the best solution out of this mess, but doesn't seem like either side would go for it.
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