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[Chumly]

Another thing: downplaying the role of antisemitism in this conflict is just wrong. Not all criticism of Israel is antisemitism, but a decent chunk of it ABSOLUTELY IS and it is important to acknowledge and reject that. Antisemitism is RAMPANT in the Middle East, denying this is irresponsible and hypocritical. (For the guy who said rising antisemitism was an Israeli 'talking point', read this http://www.newsweek.com/2014/08/08/exodus-why-europes-jews-are-feeling-once-again-261854.html . Also, fuck off for calling every opinion you don't agree with a talking point).

Settle down there. Yes antisemitism is rampant in the Middle East but to say that there is violent antisemitism across the world is exaggerated. Besides your using it as a detractor/distraction to legitimate talking points that people bring up. Islamophobia running rampant in Israel and other western nations isn't is going to help either. We have to get past both to work towards peace and downplaying criticisms by classifying them as antisemitic or islamophobia isn't going to help.

 

[Elfforkusu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw7FJ9y8m4M

He tells it like it is.

Goddamn.

 

[falastini]

nib95, regarding the occupation. First of all, it is not the source of all of this mess as you have said yourself.

The occupation is the main factor in this conflict. The fact that you would think that the oppression, displacement, and marginalization of a people is not why we're at this juncture says a lot.

Second of all, what happens in this thread repeatedly is that Israel is being treated as a single monolithic entity with no respect towards actual history. Three elected Israeli governments actively endorsed and offered to end the occupation. Israel gave Sinai back which is twice as large as the entire country, and withdrew from Gaza. People here would endorse any sort of conspiracy theory to reject the fact that Israel at several points wished to end the occupation and was serious about peace. It is honestly insulting to the people in Israel who believe in the two state solution. The occupation has lasted for 47 years but this is just not only Israel's fault I'm afraid, it is also the fault of the Palestinians and Arabs in general failing to convey that they will want to coexist with Israel in any form.

First off... removing a settlement from Gaza doesn't mean Israel withdrew from Gaza. You are being factually misleading. Israel still controls and runs everything in Gaza. It wasn't some grand peaceful gesture. It was a calculated move to remove risk from a undesired strip of land. Israel has already built more in the West Bank since they dismantled the Gaza settlements.

The reason the Palestinians haven't been able to work a peace agreement with Israel (liike Egypt), is because they have no leverage. Israel stalled the peace process for years, under the guise of security, all while claiming more land (how do you secure your countries borders by building forward settlements next to the enemy?). Now twenty years later, any attempt at peace negotiation is met with redrawn maps of that same acquired land.

Thirdly, depicting Israel as some menacing empire is just misleading. At the end of the day the country is TINY. The entire country is 22000 squared km including the West Bank, the size of Wales and less than Crimea which has been recently taken by Russia. Israel fits in Saudi Arabia a hundred times. It is not some sprawling dark empire, and the settlements, although stupid and misguided sit on around 2% of the West Bank only (this is the Palestinian estimate for the built-up area of the settlements, look it up). I'm bringing this up not to downplay the suffering of Palestinians that is very real, but to say that this sort of demonization creates a distorted image of reality.

Israel has appropriated way more than 2% in the West Bank. I don't know where you get that number from. This map is 2 years old but..

Does that look like 2% to you? Look at all the checkpoints, walls, and Israeli only roads that crisscross the map. It's like swiss cheese. I didn't even mention the Palestinian-owned land that Israel denies the right to build on.

Israel is stronger than its neighbors militarily but it has no strategic depth. The modern Egyptian Army has a reasonable chance of mounting a successful attack on Israel if you consider its size and its naval advantage, being able to completely level the main Israeli population centers. If it weren't for its nuclear weapons it would likely have been taken over by Arab states if they just kept at it. This is just fact.

Israel's military strength does fuck all to help it against non-state actors. If it uses its full abilities it is condemned as disproportionate and portrayed as the villain. If it doesn't, if it would choose to send its troops deep into Gaza to go door to door, tunnel to tunnel to face Hamas fighters it would lose scores of troops only for Hamas and the world mocking it for losing to 'resistance fighters'.

Egypt won't do shit. They are second, behind Israel, on the U.S. payroll. Israel isn't under threat from anybody, no matter how many times you wanna spin it. They have one of the largest, well-trained, and technologically advanced armies in the world.

Oh... and they also have the only nuclear arsenal in the entire region.

 

[Biff]

Holy fucking shit.

Extremely off-topic and inappropriate for this thread but this is creepy as fuck: I can clearly see your avatar in the picture you quoted.

There's even an orange face-like cloud within the large black plume that matches your avatar.

 

[Jag]

Settle down there. Yes antisemitism is rampant in the Middle East but to say that there is violent antisemitism across the world is exaggerated. Besides your using it as a detractor/distraction to legitimate talking points that people bring up. Islamophobia running rampant in Israel and other western nations isn't is going to help either. We have to get past both to work towards peace and downplaying criticisms by classifying them as antisemitic or islamophobia isn't going to help.

Did you even read the article? Anti-semitism is rampant in Europe. To say that detractors of Israel are not using anti-semitism to stir up hatred of Jews is totally disingenuous.

The mob howled for vengeance, the missiles raining down on the synagogue walls as the worshippers huddled inside. It was a scene from Europe in the 1930s – except this was eastern Paris on the evening of July 13th, 2014.

Some of the trapped Jews fought their way out as the riot police dispersed the crowd. Manuel Valls, the French Prime Minister, condemned the attack in “the strongest possible terms”, while Joel Mergei, a community leader, said he was “profoundly shocked and revolted”. The words had no effect. Two weeks later, 400 protesters attacked a synagogue and Jewish-owned businesses in Sarcelles, in the north of Paris, shouting “Death to the Jews”. Posters had even advertised the raid in advance, like the pogroms of Tsarist Russia.

In Berlin a crowd of anti-Israel protesters had to be prevented from attacking a synagogue. In Liege, Belgium, a café owner put up a sign saying dogs were welcome, but Jews were not allowed.

This is happening all over Europe. The ghosts of the past are not so far behind.

 

[TrojanBlade]

The human shield

How the Term ‘Human Shield’ is Used to Justify State Sponsored Massacres

 

[Tetsuo9]

I just want to say that I'm proud that South American countries are standing up and denouncing Israel by recalling envoys. We may not have the power nor the money to solve the conflict or have any effect whatsoever, but still makes me feel that there is a small hope that international pressure could snowball to end the conflict.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.607915

Hopefully we can not only do that but start sending material aid to the palestinians soon.

 

[nib95]

Me and my friends were at a demo yesterday at Habima square. It is getting problematic though, as Haggai Matar wrote at +972 at the last big demo: http://972mag.com/the-night-it-became-dangerous-to-demonstrate-in-tel-aviv/93524/

But yeah, we do go out every other day to demonstrate and oppose the massacre.

I must say, this post really touched me. The sentiment and strive for active participation in these demonstrations should be commended. You are a brave soul, and my respect and prayers go out to you. I can't say I know how it feels to protest amidst or against some of the disapproval, backlash and animosity you might have faced, but I'm sure it takes a level of courage that imo should not easily be dismissed or go unnoticed.

I tip my hat to you Sir.

 

[Yagharek]

The human shield

How the Term ‘Human Shield’ is Used to Justify State Sponsored Massacres

It's a military euphemism like collateral damage. Code for "we dont give a fuck about innocent victims in the crossfire".

 

[Dryk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw7FJ9y8m4M

He tells it like it is.

Did I hear someone in the crowd yelling that the Jews never took up arms against the Germans? Because that's horseshit.

 

[tafer]

I just saw this, and I had to post it here (didn't know where else). Its 5 months old, and is 40 minutes, but my GOD what a powerful eye opener video.

An Israeli Soldier's Story - Eran Efrati
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93hqlmrZKd8

That's a powerful video, impressive considering it's 40 minutes long.

 

[zer0blivion]

The New Yorker posted a really good article today.

Collective Punishment in Gaza
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/collective-punishment-gaza

In 1982, in a quest to expel the Palestine Liberation Organization and extinguish Palestinian nationalism, Israel invaded Lebanon, killing seventeen thousand people, mostly civilians. Since the late nineteen-eighties, when Palestinians under occupation rose up, mostly by throwing stones and staging general strikes, Israel has arrested tens of thousands of Palestinians: over seven hundred and fifty thousand people have spent time in Israeli prisons since 1967, a number that amounts to forty per cent of the adult male population today. They have emerged with accounts of torture, which are substantiated by human-rights groups like B’tselem. During the second intifada, which began in 2000, Israel reinvaded the West Bank (it had never fully left). The occupation and colonization of Palestinian land continued unabated throughout the “peace process” of the nineteen-nineties, and continues to this day. And yet, in America, the discussion ignores this crucial, constantly oppressive context, and is instead too often limited to Israeli “self-defense” and the Palestinians’ supposed responsibility for their own suffering.

 

[Elfforkusu]

Did I hear someone in the crowd yelling that the Jews never took up arms against the Germans? Because that's horseshit.

Yep.

Shows how ingrained the blind Israel=good narrative goes. They can even rewrite history!

 

[danwarb]

They blew up the only power plant...

 

[Deadbeat]

I saw this of Hamas fighters coming out of a tunnel and killing Israeli soldiers on Reddit today. Warning, it is graphic and shows Israeli soldiers getting killed. I couldn't watch the entire thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NAhozItSq0

edit: I was watching this on liveleak. It seems Level 2 Hamas fighters have emerged.

 

[falastini]

Did you even read the article? Anti-semitism is rampant in Europe. To say that detractors of Israel are not using anti-semitism to stir up hatred of Jews is totally disingenuous.

Do a few wackos make it a pandemic? Do you ever think, that maybe, most people are angry with Israel's actions over the years and not their semetic heritage. Does it exist? Yes. But it has no place in this discussion. Should we discuss Islamaphobia? How about the growing racist culture within Israel?

How about we stop trying to divert the conversation and discuss the issue at hand.

I just saw this, and I had to post it here (didn't know where else). Its 5 months old, and is 40 minutes, but my GOD what a powerful eye opener video.

An Israeli Soldier's Story - Eran Efrati
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93hqlmrZKd8

Much respect to people like him and "Breaking the Silence". It takes a lot of courage to stand up like that.

 

[theignoramus]

The New Yorker posted a really good article today.

Collective Punishment in Gaza
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/collective-punishment-gaza

the United States puts its thumb on the scales in favor of the stronger party. In this surreal, upside-down vision of the world, it almost seems as if it is the Israelis who are occupied by the Palestinians, and not the other way around. In this skewed universe, the inmates of an open-air prison are besieging a nuclear-armed power with one of the most sophisticated militaries in the world.

This is the triumph of pro-Israel propaganda, convincing the West that it is they who are besieged and in dire peril, not Palestine.

 

[Chumly]

Did you even read the article? Anti-semitism is rampant in Europe. To say that detractors of Israel are not using anti-semitism to stir up hatred of Jews is totally disingenuous.



This is happening all over Europe. The ghosts of the past are not so far behind.

See this is what I was talking about. Pretty ridiculous to say that the ghosts of the past are not so far behind and only distracts from the real issues. You think its the 30's all over again? Muslims face the same kind of persecution as well. You think that doesn't play into the conflict?

 

[nib95]

The New Yorker posted a really good article today.

Collective Punishment in Gaza
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/collective-punishment-gaza

Excellent and poignant article. Everyone should give it a read. Also need to watch the video posted above at some point.

 

[LAUGHTREY]

The idea behind military aid for Israel is that we give them money to buy weapons, and a list of American arms manufacturers that they can buy them from. They buy weapons from said manufacturers, and American industry sees increased revenue. Not defending what Israel does with said weapons, in fact I condone it, but that's the logic of politicians.

Condemn?

 

[Quotient]

I saw this of Hamas fighters coming out of a tunnel and killing Israeli soldiers on Reddit today. Warning, it is graphic and shows Israeli soldiers getting killed. I couldn't watch the entire thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NAhozItSq0

Was this an Israeli military outpost? It seemed to be extremely poorly guarded, added to the fact that tunnel exit was just a few feet from the gate.

 

[Linkhero1]

The New Yorker posted a really good article today.

Collective Punishment in Gaza
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/collective-punishment-gaza

This is a fantastic read. Highlighted a lot of the discussion points brought up in this thread.

 

[zer0blivion]

I'm seeing some reports on twitter that another UNRWA shelter was hit.

BREAKING: Shelling kills 20 people sheltering in UN school in #Gaza, say medics
https://twitter.com/Johnny_Davo/status/494316194636115968

 

[Quotient]

I just saw this, and I had to post it here (didn't know where else). Its 5 months old, and is 40 minutes, but my GOD what a powerful eye opener video.

An Israeli Soldier's Story - Eran Efrati
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93hqlmrZKd8

Thank you for sharing.

 

[Buzzman]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/28/as-israel-enforces-its-buffer-zone-gaza-shrinks-by-40-per-cent.html

To protect itself from Hamas rockets and tunnels, Israel is forcing tens of thousands of people out of their homes, turning their old neighborhoods into a no-man’s land.

The Israeli military, relentlessly and methodically, is driving people out of the 3-kilometer (1.8 mile) buffer zone it says it needs to protect against Hamas rockets and tunnels. According to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, the buffer zone eats up about 44 percent of Gaza’s territory.

GEE WHO COULD HAVE SEEN THIS COMING



In other news, showing sympathy for Palestinians is not appreciated in Israel,

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.607888

Bar Ilan University students, faculty and administrators are up in arms over a law professor’s email to his students that opened with an expression of sympathy for all victims of the Israel-Gaza war, implicitly reminding them that the overwhelming majority of those victims are Gazans.

Prof. Hanoch Sheinman’s email was sent to reassure his second-year law students that because the security situation had disrupted many students’ routines, there would be an additional date scheduled for his course’s final exam. Sheinman opened the email, however, by saying that he hoped the message “finds you in a safe place, and that you, your families and those dear to you are not among the hundreds of people that were killed, the thousands wounded, or the tens of thousands whose homes were destroyed or were forced to leave their homes during, or as a direct result of, the violent confrontation in the Gaza Strip and its environs.”


Sheinman’s reference to the victims of the fighting with no reference to their national affiliation led many students to complain to the dean of the law faculty, Prof. Shahar Lifshitz, who issued an urgent message to the students yesterday. “I was shocked to learn of the email sent to you by Professor Sheinman,” Lifshitz wrote. “It was a hurtful letter, and since this morning we have been justifiably flooded with messages from students and family members, many of whom are involved during these very days in the battles in the south.”

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

They blew up the only power plant...

Collective punishment is official policy, but its official capacity remains virtually uncovered by corporate media. A case for agnotology.

see: "The Dahiya Doctrine"

 

[Lazy vs Crazy]

The US congress is going on a month long vacation at the end of the week.

The most pressing thing they are trying to do before then is pass a bill to send another $225 million dollars to Israel to support their war. It has support from both parties. The Republicans want to pass a bill sending the money and weapons alone, the Democrats want to tie it to domestic programs.

 

[Jonm1010]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/28/as-israel-enforces-its-buffer-zone-gaza-shrinks-by-40-per-cent.html

GEE WHO COULD HAVE SEEN THIS COMING



In other news, showing sympathy for Palestinians is not appreciated in Israel,

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.607888

So this is the ultimate objective? Clear out a buffer zone in gaza by way of relentless shelling and bombing. Then I assume they are going to take control of that buffer zone?

Heres something Im curious about, are they currently bombing and shelling outside of that buffer zone??

 

[soul]

Was this an Israeli military outpost? It seemed to be extremely poorly guarded, added to the fact that tunnel exit was just a few feet from the gate.

This is a video of the incident from two days ago when Hamas killed five Israeli soldiers, now we can actually see two/three of them are from close range. The video is edited and Hamas decided not to show it to it's fullest. As you can see, during the end after they make sure the IDF soldier is dead multiple times, they start grabbing him to try and kidnap his body. According to the IDF version, Hamas also shot an RPG to an incoming vehicle coming to assist the soldiers, and killed two more. A single soldier managed to scare the terrorists off and kill one of them. Hamas' terrorists later ran off in the tunnel back to Gaza and gave up on the kidnapping.

The question of that outpost's security is on everyone's mind in Israel today. That's against every regulation in the book. No one noticed them from the tower, the gate was open, etc. They entered the outpost from the Israeli side which is probably why the soldiers didn't even notice them.

May they rest in peace.

 

[maharg]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/28/as-israel-enforces-its-buffer-zone-gaza-shrinks-by-40-per-cent.html

GEE WHO COULD HAVE SEEN THIS COMING



In other news, showing sympathy for Palestinians is not appreciated in Israel,

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.607888

Note that there was already a no-go area around the edge of Gaza (100m, with a further 200m where only people farming land could go, and then shooting incidents taking place as far away as 1-1.5km away from it):

 

[soul]

Also, for the 3rd time:

In a related development, UNRWA said that a cache of rockets was found today at one of its schools in central Gaza. The discovery came during a regular UNRWA inspection of the school, which was closed for the summer and not being used as a shelter. All the relevant parties have been notified.

“We condemn the group or groups who endangered civilians by placing these munitions in our school,” said UNRWA spokesperson Chris Gunness. “This is yet another flagrant violation of the neutrality of our premises. We call on all the warring parties to respect the inviolability of UN property.”

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=48365#.U9g7NPmSxe4

 

[Buzzman]

Also, for the 3rd time:

Weird how they seem to be storing rockets in vacant buildings and not actually using human shields to protect them?

 

[soul]

Weird how they seem to be storing rockets in vacant buildings and not actually using human shields to protect them?

They ran out of space in the Shifa hospital bunker.

 

[maharg]

Weird how they seem to be storing rockets in vacant buildings and not actually using human shields to protect them?

No, see, it's only the vacant buildings UNWRA checks. They gleefully assume their occupied buildings are empty of weapons.

Honestly I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of the buildings Hamas puts weapons in are occupied, and it's still wrong of them to put them in UN buildings, but if you want to prove it you really need to be citing cases where weapons were actually found in an occupied, not vacant, building. These UNWRA reports work against that narrative.

 

[CesspoolofHatred]

They ran out of space in the Shifa hospital bunker.

Prove that there were missiles stored by Hamas there.

And not just "well of COURSE there are missiles". Actual, hard proof.

 

[Linkhero1]

I'm seeing some reports on twitter that another UNRWA shelter was hit.

BREAKING: Shelling kills 20 people sheltering in UN school in #Gaza, say medics
https://twitter.com/Johnny_Davo/status/494316194636115968

Goodness. Might as well take out all shelters since they don't seem to care at this point whether they're occupied or not.

 

[Jonm1010]

So I know I just asked this same sort of question but is there a map of Israel that has mapped where the bombs and shelling has happened? I am curious the dispersion and volume of the bombings and where they are being concentrated or if it isn't just the buffer zone.

 

[soul]

Prove that there were missiles stored by Hamas there.

And not just "well of COURSE there are missiles". Actual, hard proof.

I hope that by the end of the operation we will all see that after Israeli troops get inside and film it. Random fact: Did you know Shifa hospital was actually designed and built by Israeli engineers during the 80's (I might be mistaken and it was the 90's)? The safe shelters are there. It was Israel that built them.

 

[maharg]

Well that's depressing. US I understand, the media is extremely pro Israeli, as are the politics, but Canada I'm more confused about. Interesting it's largely so different in most of the rest of the world.

Back on this subject, for a moment, even the left wing socialist-lite party (the NDP, current opposition) in Canada is wishy washy on the subject.

 

[Buzzman]

They ran out of space in the Shifa hospital bunker.

Does it not feel wrong somewhere in there? Knowing over a thousand innocent civilians have been killed so that your country can benefit, and you're cracking jokes about them.

Or do you only give a shit about Israelis?

 

[CesspoolofHatred]

I hope that by the end of the operation we will all see that after Israeli troops get inside and film it. Random fact: Did you know Shifa hospital was actually designed and built by Israeli engineers during the 80's (I might be mistaken and it was the 90's)? The safe shelters are there. It was Israel that built them.

And yet here you are, accusing a hospital of holding missiles. As if that's justification for bombing them.

What happens when the troops go in, and missiles AREN'T there? Are you going to say that Hamas extracted them before the IDF could roll in? Or is it more likely that the missiles were never there to begin with?

 

[RustyNails]

Thank you both for at least addressing the actual question.

nib95, regarding the occupation. First of all, it is not the source of all of this mess as you have said yourself.

Second of all, what happens in this thread repeatedly is that Israel is being treated as a single monolithic entity with no respect towards actual history. Three elected Israeli governments actively endorsed and offered to end the occupation. Israel gave Sinai back which is twice as large as the entire country, and withdrew from Gaza. People here would endorse any sort of conspiracy theory to reject the fact that Israel at several points wished to end the occupation and was serious about peace. It is honestly insulting to the people in Israel who believe in the two state solution. The occupation has lasted for 47 years but this is just not only Israel's fault I'm afraid, it is also the fault of the Palestinians and Arabs in general failing to convey that they will want to coexist with Israel in any form.

Thirdly, depicting Israel as some menacing empire is just misleading. At the end of the day the country is TINY. The entire country is 22000 squared km including the West Bank, the size of Wales and less than Crimea which has been recently taken by Russia. Israel fits in Saudi Arabia a hundred times. It is not some sprawling dark empire, and the settlements, although stupid and misguided sit on around 2% of the West Bank only (this is the Palestinian estimate for the built-up area of the settlements, look it up). I'm bringing this up not to downplay the suffering of Palestinians that is very real, but to say that this sort of demonization creates a distorted image of reality.

Israel is stronger than its neighbors militarily but it has no strategic depth. The modern Egyptian Army has a reasonable chance of mounting a successful attack on Israel if you consider its size and its naval advantage, being able to completely level the main Israeli population centers. If it weren't for its nuclear weapons it would likely have been taken over by Arab states if they just kept at it. This is just fact.

Israel's military strength does fuck all to help it against non-state actors. If it uses its full abilities it is condemned as disproportionate and portrayed as the villain. If it doesn't, if it would choose to send its troops deep into Gaza to go door to door, tunnel to tunnel to face Hamas fighters it would lose scores of troops only for Hamas and the world mocking it for losing to 'resistance fighters'.

Another thing: downplaying the role of antisemitism in this conflict is just wrong. Not all criticism of Israel is antisemitism, but a decent chunk of it ABSOLUTELY IS and it is important to acknowledge and reject that. Antisemitism is RAMPANT in the Middle East, denying this is irresponsible and hypocritical. (For the guy who said rising antisemitism was an Israeli 'talking point', read this http://www.newsweek.com/2014/08/08/exodus-why-europes-jews-are-feeling-once-again-261854.html . Also, fuck off for calling every opinion you don't agree with a talking point).

Lastly, this specific conflict should be understood as what it is: one more theater of a war raging across the Middle East, from Libya to Iraq. This is more about Egypt and Saudi Arabia vs. Turkey and Qatar than either Palestinians or Israelis.

The only silver-lining I see to this truly depressing war is that it might help with two things:

1. Demonstrate to the Israeli government and public that the status quo with the Palestinians is unsustainable and that it is within the country's interest to be proactive and take initiative to achieve a peaceful solution rather than being dragged again and again into useless conflicts that benefit no one.

2. Forge a new axis in the Middle East comprised of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Israel and the Palestinian Authority. This was the first time in the history of the conflict where an Arab state openly sided with the Israeli position. If Israel extends its hand to the PA in the West Bank it can forge a meaningful relationship with these countries. It's an opportunity that should not be missed.

There are some encouraging signs regarding both of these, however it is too early to tell.

Do you know why Israel ended the Sinai occupation. Because the only way Israel will listen to anything is through violence. '78 accords are the direct result of the yom kippur war. Egypt's initial lightning advance during the war baffled Israel and after the war was over, despite Israel's victory, Israelis were shocked at Egypt's military and understood that the next war, they will surely lose not only Sinai but also parts inside armistice line. Israel wanted to remove Egypt as it's adversary because it could not sustain egypt's repeated attacks. You yourself touch on this later on, saying Israel probably cannot withstand a modern Egyptian onslaught. Moshe dayan accepted this, and in his memoir said that it was in Israel's best interest to remove Egypt from the Arab front and make peace with them, because they were not fucking around any more. He was right, and guess what Israel did. It accepted the 1971 treaty proposed by Anwar sadat. Israel wasted 7 years, countless lives, injuries and treasure just to go back and accept Sadat's proposal. Why didn't they accept '71 Sadat offer when it was first proposed. Why did it take an all out military war (and countless deaths, violence, strife) for Israel to accept it. So no, Israel did not walk to Egypt with an olive branch in it's hand. It did it because Sadat forced Rabin. Camp david? PLO was willing to accept 50% of settlements in the west bank, settlements which are defined in every international court as illegal and nonrecognized. PLO was willing to accept some rights of refugees, contrary to international law that says ALL 6-7 million refugees deserve their rights. So on and so forth. Camp david ended in taba, after Ehud barak's negotiators walked out fearing an electoral defeat by Sharon. Every time Israel made a peace offering it is through a result of sheer brute violence that forced it from the yom kippur war to the 2nd intifadah. Maybe Arafat should have sent Palestinians attacking Israel before camp david and Israel would have accepted the terms under pressure as it seems to do all the time.

It is not a conspiracy to think Israel does nto accept 2 state solution. Look at statements from all of Israel PMs. Look at Netanyahu's statements. Why do you think PLO got diddly squat in exchange for normalizing relations with Israel. It's frankly insulting to actual conspiracy theorists to say people who believe Israel is not interested in peace are conspiracy theorists. Everything Arabs have achieved it's through violence because the nonviolence does not work with Israel. Maybe if the Hamas Fatah unity government succeeded, then Israel would have been forced to capitulate because legitimizing Hamas is Israel's nightmare.

No matter how much you try to distract the brutal occupation of Palestinians with whataboutisms, it does not help one bit to the discussion. It does not matter how small Israel is or whatever. What matters is Israel keeping a 2 million starving population in an open air prison. Don't you think those poor people deserve some respect. It does not matter how much percentage Israel has settlements in West Bank. Nice PR on that 2% number though. What that 2% number does is measure the area of actual square footage of buildings against the entirety of West Bank's area. How much can buildings occupy a land anyway? Wouldn't you want to include the outposts and the area restricted for Palestinians from these settler homes? You might want to google yourself, as settlers have IDF jurisdiction of 50% of West Bank. That is the real number. Bt'Selem says it is closer to 40%, but please, don't let that stop you from peddling "its not that big of a deal guys" bs. Try imagining saying that to a native Arab family that got it's ancestral source of livelihood, a lemon farm, uprooted infront of their eyes for settlers if you think these numbers are so small. Then try to imagine hundreds of thousands of such families whose farms, homes, businesses and other properties got taken over by Israel and it's illegal invaders that call themselves settlers. Try imagining Israel's response if Egyptian settlers carved out 2% of the land for building and 40% jurisdiction under Egyptian military.

Good thing you brought up modern antisemitism, the greatest export of Europe to Middle east. I mean, what better evidence do you need of this than look at Hamas charter, that uses Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a work inspired from the great anti-semite Sir John Ratcliffe? Please, don't fall victim to "us vs them". Don't make this into "they are all trying to kill us" and "peace is hopeless". Muslims and Jews lived in harmony in Cairo, Damascus, Basra and Jerusalem during the caliphate. Shit started to go down after the whole "Israel experimentation" began. Reprisals, revenge killings, massacres, wars. Of course they weren't always friendly relations as it had it's ups and downs, but nothing compared to what it is today (modern antisemitism). Now the nonsense about "jews controlling the world" crap has seeped into the Arab and Muslim psyche so much, it will take dozens of generations to completely erase it. Yes the antisemitism is deplorable and must be condemned especially in the middle east, but you are looking at the effect and not the cause. You seem perturbed by people calling your opinions talking points, but you will have to excuse them when such opinions actually do parallel Israeli talking points. Not accusing you of anything, but don't be so defensive when someone dismisses the stuff you say because it's the same stuff we have been hearing for past 60 years (they hate us/they are anti semites/they want to drive us into the water/etc etc). At least a few banned posters had something imaginative to say.

As for the silver lining, yes I agree that Israel will capitulate. It has done so in the past. It will go back to Clinton parameters, effectively wasting 12 years encompassing the horrendous lives of civilians, destruction of the land, waste of money and aggravation to no end on the Arab side, and an unstoppable antisemitism fueled by such actions. In fact Israel will accept the July 12th ceasefire terms after Bibi can dance around the knesset with the heads of dead children in his hands. It also just might find out that the goal of dismantling the unity govt was too lofty and end up occupying Gaza long term.

 

[soul]

Does it not feel wrong somewhere in there? Knowing over a thousand innocent civilians have been killed so that your country can benefit, and you're cracking jokes about them.

Or do you only give a shit about Israelis?

Of course I care about Israeli's first, I'm an Israeli.
There's actually a famous Arab quote saying 'I rather a thousand mothers cry and not my own'. By the way, if Hamas wanted to keep it's civilians safe, it shouldn't have forced them to stay in the area the I.D.F. has ordered to evacuate.

 

[Chumly]

Also, for the 3rd time:

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=48365#.U9g7NPmSxe4

So is that why Israel decided to bomb the shelter with people in it and with no rockets?

 

[StickSoldier]

Of course I care about Israeli's first, I'm an Israeli.
There's actually a famous Arab quote saying 'I rather a thousand mothers cry and not my own'. By the way, if Hamas wanted to keep it's civilians safe, it shouldn't have forced them to stay in the area the I.D.F. has ordered to evacuate.

What if another Israeli murdered someone you love?

 

[gutter_trash]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/28/as-israel-enforces-its-buffer-zone-gaza-shrinks-by-40-per-cent.html

GEE WHO COULD HAVE SEEN THIS COMING



In other news, showing sympathy for Palestinians is not appreciated in Israel,

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.607888

watch Israel's next phase is to cut off Gaza's border with Egypt

 

[CesspoolofHatred]

Of course I care about Israeli's first, I'm an Israeli.
There's actually a famous Arab quote saying 'I rather a thousand mothers cry and not my own'. By the way, if Hamas wanted to keep it's civilians safe, it shouldn't have forced them to stay in the area the I.D.F. has ordered to evacuate.

Where is your source that Hamas is forcing people to stay?

Where are the Palestinians on the Gaza supposed to go?

 

[Jonm1010]

Anyone thinking soul deserves attention should just read this post and then rethink whether its worth engaging that guy.

 

[Buzzman]

Of course I care about Israeli's first, I'm an Israeli.
There's actually a famous Arab quote saying 'I rather a thousand mothers cry and not my own'. By the way, if Hamas wanted to keep it's civilians safe, it shouldn't have forced them to stay in the area the I.D.F. has ordered to evacuate.

There's actually a famous Israeli quote saying:

They have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists," "They are all our enemies and their blood should be on our hands.

So I can make funny quips about the dead soldiers, "Maybe they should've been using Palestinian kids as cover, then they probably wouldn't have died!" Funny joke right?

Also you'd think that after a thousand dead, they would realise that being a human "shield" isn't actually helping.

 

[RustyNails]

Must read: Collective Punishment in Gaza

What Israel is doing in Gaza now is collective punishment. It is punishment for Gaza’s refusal to be a docile ghetto. It is punishment for the gall of Palestinians in unifying, and of Hamas and other factions in responding to Israel’s siege and its provocations with resistance, armed or otherwise, after Israel repeatedly reacted to unarmed protest with crushing force. Despite years of ceasefires and truces, the siege of Gaza has never been lifted.

As Netanyahu’s own words show, however, Israel will accept nothing short of the acquiescence of Palestinians to their own subordination. It will accept only a Palestinian “state” that is stripped of all the attributes of a real state: control over security, borders, airspace, maritime limits, contiguity, and, therefore, sovereignty. The twenty-three-year charade of the “peace process” has shown that this is all Israel is offering, with the full approval of Washington. Whenever the Palestinians have resisted that pathetic fate (as any nation would), Israel has punished them for their insolence. This is not new.