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2014 Israel-Gaza Conflict [UN: 1,525+ Palestinian dead, mostly civilian; 66 Israeli]

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ramuh

Member
I think they could come up with a one state solution that would allow Jewish people to hold the majority of the power, and that's probably the best solution out of this mess, but doesn't seem like either side would go for it.

And then you get the inevitable attack on Palestinians or Israelis and then revenge stuff starts happening. I truly feel they can't coexist as a single entity. There needs to be a full Palestine State that can govern, police, set policies and hold peace with it's neighbors.
 

maharg

idspispopd
I think they could come up with a one state solution that would allow Jewish people to hold the majority of the power, and that's probably the best solution out of this mess, but doesn't seem like either side would go for it.

There's a word for this, it's called apartheid. Israel is already a bunch of the way towards it (particularly in the occupied territories), going whole hog would erase a lot of good will.
 

Aaron

Member
There's a word for this, it's called apartheid. Israel is already a bunch of the way towards it (particularly in the occupied territories), going whole hog would erase a lot of good will.
What good will do they have to lose at this point? They're already making a prison of Palestine. At least this would reduce the murder rate by a whole lot. An independent Palestine, in the minds of Israel, would be Pakistan to India but a hundred times worse.
 

maharg

idspispopd
What good will do they have to lose at this point? They're already making a prison of Palestine. At least this would reduce the murder rate by a whole lot. An independent Palestine, in the minds of Israel, would be Pakistan to India but a hundred times worse.

They have a lot of good will to lose, especially in the US. Right now they get away with this because they've managed to completely other the people in the territories in the eyes of the press, making them half-citizens in an outright apartheid Israel-Palestine would make Americans directly complicit in rebuilding a system designed after Jim Crow and a lot of the US would not be able to tolerate that.
 

Aaron

Member
They have a lot of good will to lose, especially in the US. Right now they get away with this because they've managed to completely other the people in the territories in the eyes of the press, making them half-citizens in an outright apartheid Israel-Palestine would make Americans directly complicit in rebuilding a system designed after Jim Crow and a lot of the US would not be able to tolerate that.
Depends on how they frame it. Essentially, they're doing that right now, but currently Palestine has no say whatsoever in their situation. Giving them a minority stake in the government would allow Israel to at least create the illusion that they're being treated fairly. They could pull of some gerrymandering scheme with the reps being based on districts in such that Israel gets the most reps in the new government. The US is already pretty accepting of that. Because instead the US is complicit in the murder of thousands, and the displacement of hundreds of thousands.
 

Nikodemos

Member
They have a lot of good will to lose, especially in the US. Right now they get away with this because they've managed to completely other the people in the territories in the eyes of the press, making them half-citizens in an outright apartheid Israel-Palestine would make Americans directly complicit in rebuilding a system designed after Jim Crow and a lot of the US would not be able to tolerate that.
It's not just that. The hardliner nationalists would be furious at giving Muslim and Christian Palestinians even second-class citizen status. Particularly as they would become almost as numerous as Jews in the new one-state Israelistine. Their biggest fear is what's termed "camel's nose" strategy: as Palestinians would get this sham citizenship, their number would eventually increase to a critical mass that could, in time, become politically potent enough to ask for equal recognition. As Israel was founded upon Zionist doctrine, and Zionist doctrine explicitly specifies a Jewish state, that would be utterly unacceptable to hardliners. In fact, it would be unacceptable even to a good deal many moderates, who are willing to compromise on a number of things apart for the Israeli state's 'Jewishness'.
 

Aaron

Member
It's not just that. The hardliner nationalists would be furious at giving Muslim and Christian Palestinians even second-class citizen status. Particularly as they would become almost as numerous as Jews in the new one-state Israelistine. Their biggest fear is what's termed "camel's nose" strategy: as Palestinians would get this sham citizenship, their number would eventually increase to a critical mass that could, in time, become politically potent enough to ask for equal recognition. As Israel was founded upon Zionist doctrine, and Zionist doctrine explicitly specifies a Jewish state, that would be utterly unacceptable to hardliners. In fact, it would be unacceptable even to a good deal many moderates, who are willing to compromise on a number of things apart for the Israeli state's 'Jewishness'.
That's why I pointed out this would be an apartheid state with Jews holding the majority control. Because they might be against a single government solution, they're sure as shit aren't for a two state one. They do not want a free, independent Gaza. That's a nightmare for Israel. In the minds of the hardliners, it's the first step in Israel's destruction.
 
The Guardian is saying that the sole Gaza power plant has been destroyed, and I think the significance of this event is being lost in this thread.

Yeah, there's now a significant chance of disease spreading out, and it's going to be bad. Could end up killing much more than bombs.
 

maharg

idspispopd
Depends on how they frame it. Essentially, they're doing that right now, but currently Palestine has no say whatsoever in their situation. Giving them a minority stake in the government would allow Israel to at least create the illusion that they're being treated fairly. They could pull of some gerrymandering scheme with the reps being based on districts in such that Israel gets the most reps in the new government. The US is already pretty accepting of that. Because instead the US is complicit in the murder of thousands, and the displacement of hundreds of thousands.

Gerrymandering works in the US because it's relatively acceptable to both sides so long as some balance is maintained (something the US has been politically drawn to almost since its beginning). If the democrats exclusively represented an underclass that was gerrymandered AND lacked even the most rudimentary freedom of movement, it would probably lead to another civil war.

Simply gerrymandering would be vulnerable to the Arab minority re-gerrymandering themselves into better positions. You'd have to also continue to refuse them the right to live in Jewish majority areas, and then you're right back at blatant apartheid.
 

Aaron

Member
Gerrymandering works in the US because it's relatively acceptable to both sides so long as some balance is maintained (something the US has been politically drawn to almost since its beginning). If the democrats exclusively represented an underclass that was gerrymandered AND lacked even the most rudimentary freedom of movement, it would probably lead to another civil war.

Simply gerrymandering would be vulnerable to the Arab minority re-gerrymandering themselves into better positions. You'd have to also continue to refuse them the right to live in Jewish majority areas, and then you're right back at blatant apartheid.
The US isn't going to notice, or really care much, unless this happens right under their nose. Look at Iraq. The US installed a ruler that suppressed one muslim branch to raise another. And then after we got rid of Saddam, we installed another guy who ended up doing exactly the same thing. Now that's given rise to ISIS, and do you think the US public understands why they exist? Do you think the politicians might have finally learned from this mistake, and might try to make sure they actually get a unity government in Iraq this time? I can't help being pessimistic going from past history. It has a tendency to repeat itself.
 

maharg

idspispopd
The US isn't going to notice, or really care much, unless this happens right under their nose. Look at Iraq. The US installed a ruler that suppressed one muslim branch to raise another. And then after we got rid of Saddam, we installed another guy who ended up doing exactly the same thing. Now that's given rise to ISIS, and do you think the US public understands why they exist? Do you think the politicians might have finally learned from this mistake, and might try to make sure they actually get a unity government in Iraq this time? I can't help being pessimistic going from past history. It has a tendency to repeat itself.

There's a big difference. Israel is the US' pal, its ally, etc. etc. Iraq has been an enemy for at least 30 years in one form or another. This is one area where I actually agree that there's a level of scrutiny that's different between the two (but I don't think the right solution is less scrutiny on Israel).
 

nib95

Banned
The Guardian is saying that the sole Gaza power plant has been destroyed, and I think the significance of this event is being lost in this thread.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/gaza-power-plant-destroyed-israeli-airstrike-100-palestinians-dead

The Washington Post, in a story about the power plant, quotes a Gazan political scientist saying:

They also have an unnamed senior Israeli official saying something quite similar:


To me, this development seems like confirmation of what Netanyahu's current strategy is: spark a humanitarian crisis that leads to either Hamas' overthrow by their own people or their capitulation to preserve their own power. It would also suggest that the bombardment will continue for a while and the suffering in Gaza is going to get much worse. I was going to make a thread about it but screwed up and posted it unfinished.

It's truly revolting that Israel would do this. I can only imagine how many of the systems in hospitals etc have now gone out as a result, and how many more innocent people will die as a result. A complete black out. I can't imagine there are many generators in homes and structures out there.
 

Diablos

Member
Extremely off-topic and inappropriate for this thread but this is creepy as fuck: I can clearly see your avatar in the picture you quoted.

There's even an orange face-like cloud within the large black plume that matches your avatar.
Huh?? Crop for reference please... I don't see it!
 

LNBL

Member
To the family of the one thousandth victim of Israel’s genocidal slaughter in Gaza

I do not know yet who your loved one was. She might have been a baby a few months old, or a young boy, a grandfather or one of your children or parents. I heard about your loved one’s death from Chico Menashe, a political commentator on Reshet Bet, Israel’s main radio station.

He explained that the killing of your loved one, as well as turning Gaza neighborhoods to rubble and driving 150,000 people from their homes, is part of a well-calculated Israeli strategy: this carnage will destroy the impulse of Palestinians in Gaza to resist Israeli policies. I heard this while reading in the 25 July edition of the supposedly respectable Haaretz the words of the not so respectable historian Benny Morris that even this is not enough.

He calls the genocidal policies so far “refisut” — feebleness of mind and spirit. He demands far more massive destruction in the future with the knowledge that this is how you behave if you want to defend your “villa in the jungle,” as former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak described Israel.

Inhuman wilderness

Yes, I am afraid to say the Israeli media and academia are fully behind the massacre apart from few, hardly audible voices in this inhuman wilderness. I am not writing this to tell you that I am ashamed — I long ago dissociated myself from this state ideology and do all I can as an individual to confront and defeat it. Probably it has not been enough; we are all inhibited by moments of cowardice, egotism and maybe a natural impulse to take care of our family and loved ones.

And yet I feel the urge today to make a pledge to you, which none of the Germans my father knew during the time of the Nazi regime was willing to make to him when the thugs committed genocide against his family. This is not much of a pledge at your moment of grief, but it is the best I can offer and saying nothing is not an option. And doing nothing is even less than an option.

This is 2014 — the destruction of Gaza is well documented. This is not 1948 when Palestinians had to struggle hard to tell their story of horror; so many of the crimes Zionist committed then where hidden and never came to light, even until today. So my first and simple pledge is to record, inform and insist on the truth.

My old university, University of Haifa, has recruited its students to disseminate Israel’s lies all over the world using the Internet, but this is 2014 and propaganda of this kind will not hold water.

Pledge to boycott

But surely this is not enough. I pledge to continue the effort to boycott a state that commits such crimes. Only when the Union of European Football Associations throws Israel out, when the academic community refuses to have any institutional ties with Israel, when airlines hesitate to fly there, and when every outfit that may lose money because of an ethical stance in the short-term understands that in the long run it will gain both morally and financially — only then we will begin to honor your loss.

The boycott, divestment and sanctions (BDS) movement has had many achievements and continues its tireless work. The obstacles still include the false allegation of anti-Semitism and the cynicism of politicians. This is how an honorable initiative by British architects to force their colleagues in Israel to take a moral stance rather than be accomplices in the criminal colonization of the land was blocked at the last moment.

Similar initiatives were sabotaged elsewhere by spineless politicians in Europe and the United States. But my pledge is to be part of the effort to overcome these hurdles. The memory of your loved one will be the driving force, together with the vivid memory of the suffering of the Palestinians in 1948 and ever since.

Slaughterhouse

I do it all egotistically. I really pray and hope that in this worst moment of your life when Palestinians stand in Shujaiya, Deir al-Balah or Gaza City, gazing at the slaughterhouse created by Israeli warplanes, tanks and artillery, you would not lose hope in humanity.

This humanity even includes Israelis, those who do not have the courage to speak but who express their horror in private as my overflowing email and Facebook inboxes attest, as well as the small handful who demonstrate publicly against the incremental genocide in Gaza.

It also includes those not born yet who perhaps will be able to escape a Zionist indoctrination machine that teaches them, from cradle to grave, to dehumanize the Palestinians to such a level that the burning alive of a sixteen-year-old Palestinian boy fails to move them or shatter their belief in their government, army or religion.

Defeated

For their sake, mine and yours, I wish we can also dream of the day after — when Zionism will be defeated as the ideology that governs our lives between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean sea and we all have the normal life we crave for and deserve.

So I pledge today not to be distracted even by friends and Palestinian leaders who still foolishly pin their hopes on the long-gone “two-state solution.” If one has the impulse to be involved in bringing regime change in Palestine, the only reason to do this is for a struggle for equal human and civil rights and full restitution for all those who are and were victimized by Zionism, inside and outside the beloved land of Palestine.

May whoever is your loved one rest in peace knowing that their death was not in vain — not because it will be avenged and revenged. We do not need more bloodshed. I still believe there is a way of bringing evil systems to an end with the power of humanity and morality.

Justice also means bringing the murderers who killed your loved one and so many others to court, and we must pursue bringing Israel’s war criminals to trial in international tribunals.

It is a far longer way and, at times, even I feel the impulse to be part of a force that uses hard power to end the inhumanity. But I pledge myself to work for justice, full justice, restorative justice.

This is what I can pledge — to work to prevent the next stage in the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and the genocide of Palestinians in Gaza.

The author of numerous books, Ilan Pappe is professor of history and director of the European Centre for Palestine Studies at the University of Exeter.

http://electronicintifada.net/conte...il&utm_term=0_e802a7602d-fdd806ceba-260781353
 

LNBL

Member
At least 15 people have been killed and another 150 people wounded in an Israeli air strike on a market near Gaza City, medics have told the AFP news agency.

Emergency services spokesman Ashraf al-Qedra said the strike hit a busy market in the battered Shejaiya neighbourhood, which lies between Gaza City and the Israeli border.

The strike came shortly after the Israeli army said it was observing a humanitarian lull that would be in force for four hours from midday GMT, 3pm local time.

But it said the lull would not apply in areas where troops were "currently operating" in a move denounced as a publicity stunt by Hamas.

3317eb5ebb1a6ad20e8bd5472f037847.png

702308ca781f4e3bd57c53d964480f25.png


At least 15 people have been killed and 160 wounded in an Israeli strike that hit a market near Gaza City, Palestinian officials say.

The explosion hit a busy fruit and vegetable market in Shejaiya, east of Gaza City, where hundreds of Palestinians were shopping, a spokesman for the Gaza health ministry said.

The attack came during a four-hour truce called by the Israeli military.

Hamas, which controls Gaza, had rejected the truce as meaningless.

Correspondents say it was unclear whether anyone in Gaza was aware that the partial ceasefire had been called.

Witnesses at the scene spoke of smoke billowing over the site with ambulances racing victims to hospital.

A journalist who worked for a local news agency was reported killed.

The Israeli military had said the ceasefire would last between 15:00 (12:00 GMT) and 19:00.

However it had warned that the truce would only apply to areas where Israeli soldiers were not currently operating, and it told residents not to return to areas they had previously been asked to evacuate.

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri had rejected the truce as meaningless.

"The lull which Israel announced is media exploitation and has no value because it excludes the volatile areas along the border, and we won't be able to get the wounded out from those areas," he said in a statement.

Sirens continued to sound in southern Israel after the ceasefire, to warn of militant rocket attacks, and Palestinian doctors said another Israeli air strike after the truce was announced had killed seven people in Khan Younis.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28571785

Who was it that claimed Israel does not break cease-fires?

Among the deaths is journalist Rami Rayan, very very NSFW pictures can be found on Twitter if you search his name. I hope the ones responsible burn in hell, because it's clear as day the rest of the world does not give a fuck.
 

LNBL

Member
One of the major problems of this war is that Hamas is labeled as a terrorist organization, all of it's military personnel are considered civilians for the purpose of this war. It's hard for Israel to fight against that type of propaganda. One could argue both ways, but do you loose a soldier or kill a kid pointing an ak-47 at you? It's a really hard moral dilemma. I think people forget that Jews in the region actually have friends who are Palestinians. eat at the same restaurants and both get government aid. Nobody wants this violence.

Several death counts distinct between fighters and civilians. And your hypothetical question does not make sense, since it's mostly rockets and drones that are killing the children.

I couldn't even get 2 minutes into it. I just cannot stand Hannity!

Neither can I, but Russel talks the truth about what he is hearing. Like most of us did after that interview
 

besada

Banned
I genuinely do not understand how we could be clearer about this, but, for those who still can't seem to understand where the line is:

Do not insult fellow members of this forum.

This is not a new rule. It is the golden standard by which we run this forum. You are welcome to discuss issues, and you are welcome to do so vigorously, but you are not welcome to insult fellow members, even if you think you have a good reason.

If you can't understand and accept this fairly simple rule, your choices involve posting somewhere else until you can get a grip, or getting banned.

I hope this is abundantly clear to everyone at this point. If you have questions or concerns about moderation policy, feel free to PM me or any other moderator.
 

mrmisterwaa

Neo Member
I have been trying extremely hard to maintain a stance where I remain on the side lines and not choose a side. (I am a muslim - but I also know that Hamas have been extremely aggressive and are extremely stubborn).

I am extremely disappointed that there is not enough coverage over this from both sides clearly explaining and showing all the relevant facts about what is currently happening in this conflict.

I want to be able to make my own decision about what is happening but the fact that there are SO many innocent people dying and that people feel that it is okay to kill children to get their point across is not a very good excuse.

As a Muslim - people from both sides (Jewish, Muslim, Christian or whatever other religion or race you would like to label yourself as) - you have my deepest condolences for any losses you may have had. This does not need to continue going on.

This is hard to watch day and day again.
 

JJD

Member
Everybody should read Norman Finkelstein's "The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering", this book is an eye opener.
 

danwarb

Member
You should look up this word on wikipedia.

The Wikipedia entry/definition is broad so, sure.

If "the systematic destruction of all or part of a racial, ethnic, religious or national group via the... (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part." is accepted.
 

crozier

Member
Isn't Gaza the most densely populated place on the planet? Good luck conducting any sort of military operation without a large number of civilian casualties.

But ethnic cleansing? Give me a break.
 

Yagharek

Member
This came up in my morning news browsing. I assume it has been circulated here but thought I would check.

From the Guardian and this blog:
When the doctors gently pulled the tiny newborn from the womb in an emergency caesarean, her mother had already been dead for an hour. Shayma al-Sheikh Qanan, 23, was eight months pregnant when an Israeli tank shell hit her home in the central Gaza strip town of Deir al-Balah, reducing it to rubble. She was left in a critical condition. Her husband, a local radio journalist, was also badly wounded. “Her body was brought in after an Israeli shelling at 3am on Friday,” said Fadi al-Kharti, a doctor at Deir al-Balah hospital. “We tried to revive her but she had died on the way.” Before paramedics managed to dig her out, she had been stuck under the rubble of her home for an hour. “Then we noticed movement in her stomach, and estimated she was about 36 weeks pregnant,” he says. Doctors performed an immediate caesarean and saved the baby, who was named after her late mother. For 43-year-old Mirfat Qanan, it was a tragedy to lose her daughter, but there was joy at becoming a grandmother. “God has protected this child for me. My daughter Shayma is dead, but I now have a new daughter,” she said. “She’ll call me ‘mummy’ just like her mother did.”
Then:
1458481_626779104107781_1656678424937640728_n.png

Its heartbreaking.
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
The Guardian is saying that the sole Gaza power plant has been destroyed, and I think the significance of this event is being lost in this thread.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/gaza-power-plant-destroyed-israeli-airstrike-100-palestinians-dead

The Washington Post, in a story about the power plant, quotes a Gazan political scientist saying:

They also have an unnamed senior Israeli official saying something quite similar:


To me, this development seems like confirmation of what Netanyahu's current strategy is: spark a humanitarian crisis that leads to either Hamas' overthrow by their own people or their capitulation to preserve their own power. It would also suggest that the bombardment will continue for a while and the suffering in Gaza is going to get much worse. I was going to make a thread about it but screwed up and posted it unfinished.

He's going to have to drag this much further than I think he's willing to.
 
I can't be the only one thinking that the massacre is starting to look like a genocide.

If 0.07% of the population by a military that drops warning leaflets and phones civilians to evacuate is genocide then yeah, I guess you could call it that. They're doing a pretty poor job of extermination though.
 

Diablos

Member
The US should stop aiding Israel. It's a pipe dream, I know. But fewer things show hypocrisy so profoundly like the US having close ties with a country doing things like this, while turning around and denouncing other nations for essentially acting the same way.
I can't be the only one thinking that the massacre is starting to look like a genocide.
b-b-b-but Israel has the right to defend itself. Like pulling the plug on a dying newborn baby whose innocent mother was murdered by the IDF. Totally Israel's right!
 

Hackworth

Member
If 0.07% of the population by a military that drops warning leaflets and phones civilians to evacuate is genocide then yeah, I guess you could call it that. They're doing a pretty poor job of extermination though.
Why would they kill directly if they can level hospitals, schools and powerplants so people suffer and die with much less blood directly on their hands?
 
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