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[maharg]

Do you deny that people care about this conflict more than any other in the world, by far? Because that's backed up by numbers. You need not look farther than this thread and the many others posted in the last couple of weeks.

Now if you say that it doesn't matter that it gets more attention than anything else then I will respectfully disagree. If, for example, the population and media in a certain country focuses specifically on crimes perpetrated by immigrants, then it definitely does matter even if the crimes by the immigrants are all true. It is an expression of an anti-immigrant sentiment. This is simply undeniable.

It also matters for two other reasons:

1. It diverts international attention and resources from other crisis zones. More people have died in Syria and Iraq (each of them, not combined) in the same time period. People were decapitated by ISIS. Christians are being ethnically cleansed from countries that they have inhabited for millennia. Libya has ceased to exist as a sovereign nation. No one protested, no one reported, no one cared. This matters.

2. The fact that everyone has a strong opinion and this much emotional involvement for both sides, has in my opinion distanced the solution, not made it closer. France, Turkey, Qatar, Egypt, the United States, Iran, the European Union, the UN - everyone constantly takes part in this conflict. Without this kind of irrational attachment, Israel could not have justified and sustained controlling the West Bank. Similarly, Hamas could not have used dead civilians to rack up points in world opinion of it weren't for the fact that people around the world constantly absolve it from any responsibility and accountability towards the people of Gaza and their welfare.

So yes, it is completely relevant and it matters a lot. People die because people obsess about this conflict and become so bound to one side that they cannot even rationally examine any contrary opinion or point of view. An Arab killed by a Jew or vice versa makes people angrier than a thousand people killed brutally in other places. This begs an explanation, period.

So how much funding has Syria or ISIS received from my government?

Look, I am not saying anything about what conflict people care about more or how many people care about it. I don't trust your assertion that there's reliable numbers to back it up, though I would say that it's really not my place to tell most of the world what to care about even if it is true, but I also don't see it as relevant. I care about what I care about for reasons that are personal to me. I care about Syria and ISIS and Ukraine and Boko Haram, but my ability to do anything about those is more limited and when I see traction being made on an issue I care about I'm happy to get behind it and push for whatever my miniscule part of humanity is worth. I am not the Prime Minister or President of any country, nor am I a particularly charismatic person on the grand scale, so this is what I can do for what it's worth.

But it's really not up to you to decide that people care about something too much or too little, and arguing about it does nothing but diminish this conflict. If there was a magic cause that would solve all the world's problems all at once you can bet your ass I'd be behind it. As is, there's only so much time and energy in a day or a week or a month or a year.

 

[Zen]

And my Government (Canada) along with the near religious zeal of unconditional support and cover for Israeli crimes.

 

[nib95]

And my Government (Canada) along with the near religious zeal of unconditional support and cover for Israeli crimes.

Please for the love of all that is good elect another less right wing extreme party, in 2015 is it? This guy and his party cannot come back in to power again.

 

[maharg]

Please for the love of all that is good elect another less loony party, in 2015 is it? This guy and his party cannot come back in to power again.

The Liberals appear to be no different on this issue.

 

[Skyzard]

Please for the love of all that is good elect another less right wing extreme party, in 2015 is it? This guy and his party cannot come back in to power again.

The next guy will be offered the same deal.

 

[nib95]

The Liberals appear to be no different on this issue.

Well that's depressing. US I understand, the media is extremely pro Israeli, as are the politics, but Canada I'm more confused about. Interesting it's largely so different in most of the rest of the world.

 

[Dion Blaster]

Do you deny that people care about this conflict more than any other in the world, by far? Because that's backed up by numbers. You need not look farther than this thread and the many others posted in the last couple of weeks.

Now if you say that it doesn't matter that it gets more attention than anything else then I will respectfully disagree. If, for example, the population and media in a certain country focuses specifically on crimes perpetrated by immigrants, then it definitely does matter even if the crimes by the immigrants are all true. It is an expression of an anti-immigrant sentiment. This is simply undeniable.

It also matters for two other reasons:

1. It diverts international attention and resources from other crisis zones. More people have died in Syria and Iraq (each of them, not combined) in the same time period. People were decapitated by ISIS. Christians are being ethnically cleansed from countries that they have inhabited for millennia. Libya has ceased to exist as a sovereign nation. No one protested, no one reported, no one cared. This matters.

2. The fact that everyone has a strong opinion and this much emotional involvement for both sides, has in my opinion distanced the solution, not made it closer. France, Turkey, Qatar, Egypt, the United States, Iran, the European Union, the UN - everyone constantly takes part in this conflict. Without this kind of irrational attachment, Israel could not have justified and sustained controlling the West Bank. Similarly, Hamas could not have used dead civilians to rack up points in world opinion of it weren't for the fact that people around the world constantly absolve it from any responsibility and accountability towards the people of Gaza and their welfare.

So yes, it is completely relevant and it matters a lot. People die because people obsess about this conflict and become so bound to one side that they cannot even rationally examine any contrary opinion or point of view. An Arab killed by a Jew or vice versa makes people angrier than a thousand people killed brutally in other places. This begs an explanation, period.

I think you're forgetting that the U.S. government funds Israel's army, which is why this hits closer to home for most of us. It feels like we could maybe make a difference by talking about it, not to mention our tax dollars are being sent there so we deserve to be able to speak out.

 

[Cromat]

So how much funding has Syria or ISIS received from my government?

You see, that would have been a valid explanation if it weren't for two things.


1. This conflict attracted this kind of obsession even pre-1967, when the US did not give out much aid to Israel at all (and actually embargoed it for a while).

2. Doesn't explain why people on Europe and South America are obsessed even without paying a dime.

It is still a completely valid reason for you to personally care but I don't think it's the core reason. If anything, the American aid is a result of the obsession, not the cause of it.

 

[Chumly]

Do you deny that people care about this conflict more than any other in the world, by far? Because that's backed up by numbers. You need not look farther than this thread and the many others posted in the last couple of weeks.

Now if you say that it doesn't matter that it gets more attention than anything else then I will respectfully disagree. If, for example, the population and media in a certain country focuses specifically on crimes perpetrated by immigrants, then it definitely does matter even if the crimes by the immigrants are all true. It is an expression of an anti-immigrant sentiment. This is simply undeniable.

It also matters for two other reasons:

1. It diverts international attention and resources from other crisis zones. More people have died in Syria and Iraq (each of them, not combined) in the same time period. People were decapitated by ISIS. Christians are being ethnically cleansed from countries that they have inhabited for millennia. Libya has ceased to exist as a sovereign nation. No one protested, no one reported, no one cared. This matters.

2. The fact that everyone has a strong opinion and this much emotional involvement for both sides, has in my opinion distanced the solution, not made it closer. France, Turkey, Qatar, Egypt, the United States, Iran, the European Union, the UN - everyone constantly takes part in this conflict. Without this kind of irrational attachment, Israel could not have justified and sustained controlling the West Bank. Similarly, Hamas could not have used dead civilians to rack up points in world opinion of it weren't for the fact that people around the world constantly absolve it from any responsibility and accountability towards the people of Gaza and their welfare.

So yes, it is completely relevant and it matters a lot. People die because people obsess about this conflict and become so bound to one side that they cannot even rationally examine any contrary opinion or point of view. An Arab killed by a Jew or vice versa makes people angrier than a thousand people killed brutally in other places. This begs an explanation, period.

I posted this in another thread and its just as relevant.

Point me to the posters on GAF that support Sudan's geonocide. Also do these supporters of Sudan make excuses for them. Maybe the people in Darfur were just being human shields?

Now let's do the same for people that support Israel...... Now let's see what actually stokes passionate responses. I'm going to go out on a limb here to point out the obvious but I'm guessing its due to all the excuses and support that Israel gets.

How much money does the US government give Syria or ISIS...... O wait..... Also how many people on GAF support crimes in Syria or ISIS. You should only have to think critically about this for about 5 seconds to figure out why threads on GAF get a thousands of more posts when they are about Israel and Palestine then other topics. That doesn't mean that people care less about people in Syria or the people that ISIS is killing. It just means that there aren't people SUPPORTING Syria or ISIS killing people.

Unfortunately this is just a disgusting tactic by Israeli supporters to try and divert attention away from them.

 

[Dude Abides]

Do you deny that people care about this conflict more than any other in the world, by far? Because that's backed up by numbers. You need not look farther than this thread and the many others posted in the last couple of weeks.

Now if you say that it doesn't matter that it gets more attention than anything else then I will respectfully disagree. If, for example, the population and media in a certain country focuses specifically on crimes perpetrated by immigrants, then it definitely does matter even if the crimes by the immigrants are all true. It is an expression of an anti-immigrant sentiment. This is simply undeniable.

It also matters for two other reasons:

1. It diverts international attention and resources from other crisis zones. More people have died in Syria and Iraq (each of them, not combined) in the same time period. People were decapitated by ISIS. Christians are being ethnically cleansed from countries that they have inhabited for millennia. Libya has ceased to exist as a sovereign nation. No one protested, no one reported, no one cared. This matters.

2. The fact that everyone has a strong opinion and this much emotional involvement for both sides, has in my opinion distanced the solution, not made it closer. France, Turkey, Qatar, Egypt, the United States, Iran, the European Union, the UN - everyone constantly takes part in this conflict. Without this kind of irrational attachment, Israel could not have justified and sustained controlling the West Bank. Similarly, Hamas could not have used dead civilians to rack up points in world opinion of it weren't for the fact that people around the world constantly absolve it from any responsibility and accountability towards the people of Gaza and their welfare.

So yes, it is completely relevant and it matters a lot. People die because people obsess about this conflict and become so bound to one side that they cannot even rationally examine any contrary opinion or point of view. An Arab killed by a Jew or vice versa makes people angrier than a thousand people killed brutally in other places. This begs an explanation, period.

The notion that this three week old conflict diverted attention from the years-old conflict in Syria is an interesting one, as is the assertion that Israel would somehow be behaving better in the West Bank if only people paid it less attention.

 

[Toxi]

You see, that would have been a valid explanation if it weren't for two things.

1. This conflict attracted this kind of obsession even pre-1967, when the US did not give out much aid to Israel at all (and actually embargoed it for a while).

Who gives a shit about 1967? Do my tax dollars travel back in time?

 

[Zen]

That is a complicated question. It's probably the same answer as to why they are not citizens of Egypt or Jordan. These countries don't want 2 million refugees in their country. I mean they voted in Hamas into government. The fear is that with such a large amount of extremist muslim citizens, when it came down to vote, an extremist muslim Arab party could be elected and Israel would just be yet another unstable extremist Arab country that marginalizes and kills it's minority groups. Right now Muslims, Christians and Jews can all live and work together peacefully. Israel regardless of what some people here want you to believe is rather secular, especially compared to it's neighbors. So yea, even Palestinians Arab neighbors don't wanna take them in.

http://youtu.be/0rkBTI03UIE

 

[Linkhero1]

You see, that would have been a valid explanation if it weren't for two things.


1. This conflict attracted this kind of obsession even pre-1967, when the US did not give out much aid to Israel at all (and actually embargoed it for a while).

2. Doesn't explain why people on Europe and South America are obsessed even without paying a dime.

It is still a completely valid reason for you to personally care but I don't think it's the core reason. If anything, the American aid is a result of the obsession, not the cause of it.

Why do people need some sort of connection to feel anything about people getting murdered? We are HUMAN. We feel EMPATHY. Why do you have to measure and compare this to anything else? I don't understand what your point is. Are you talking about the posters in this thread specifically or just in general? Because I have not seen anyone post in favor of any of the atrocities going on in other countries and they've gotten threads on GAF.

 

[nib95]

You see, that would have been a valid explanation if it weren't for two things.


1. This conflict attracted this kind of obsession even pre-1967, when the US did not give out much aid to Israel at all (and actually embargoed it for a while).

2. Doesn't explain why people on Europe and South America are obsessed even without paying a dime.

It is still a completely valid reason for you to personally care but I don't think it's the core reason. If anything, the American aid is a result of the obsession, not the cause of it.

It's receiving more attention for multiple reasons. One, because Palestine is and has been under brutal and illegal occupation for over half a century.

Secondly, the military repercussions are tertiary, Israel has been occupying and stealing more and more Palestinian land, demolishing Palestinian structures en masse, and displacing it's people by the hundreds, even thousands, week in week out (based on factual, detailed weekly UN reports), for decades with barely any gaps in-between. All to pave the way for the illegal settlements. Palestine has literally been disappearing off the map over the decades. You may have noticed that in today's society, territory stealing is illegal under international law and does not occur often without major reprisal.

Lastly, it's because much of the world (UN) is actually partly responsible for Israel's existence, and the current situation in the first place. Britain handed over the border managing to the UN, who carved out a piece of land for Israel (1947 borders) from the Palestinian mandate, no doubt knowing it would cause tensions, but not wanting the mass of post WW2 Jewish refugees etc settling in their own countries instead. In this sense much of the international community indirectly has more of an obligation here than elsewhere.

Though it is mainly due to sole US vetoes on UN resolutions critical to Israel (in opposition to the rest of the UN member states), that the UN has not been able to do more to deal with the occupation, and illegal aggressive expansion in the first place.
________

To summarise, what you're failing to realise, is that the situation and humanitarian crisis surrounding this conflict, is far more unique and poignant that most others, a result of which is more focus. And with good reason.

Here's a short video from Jewish Voice for Peace here that breaks down the situation in an accessible and simple way.

http://youtu.be/Y58njT2oXfE

 

[Akainu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw7FJ9y8m4M

He tells it like it is.

oh my.

 

[shinobi602]

"Precision strikes"

https://twitter.com/drmerajs/status/494241622725378048

 

[nib95]

"Precision strikes"

The thing is as well, it's such a densely populated area, that thousands of innocent Palestinians will suffer from all sorts of illnesses, physiological and physical as a result of these blasts, the dust, the smoke, particles etc, that can and do cause long term respiratory damage in the lungs etc, just from the fall out. This image represents only one part of the damage inflicted.

 

[Zen]

Please for the love of all that is good elect another less right wing extreme party, in 2015 is it? This guy and his party cannot come back in to power again.

The conservatives got in, initially, only because the Liberals had been so corrupt for so long that people wanted to vote in an alternative. Then over time the Liberal Party quickly self destructed, unable to function in official opposition (the Liberal government has been the Government for huge amounts of time in Canada). During this time and more left leaning NDP lead by Jack Layton was accruing more and more popularity, so they were always siphoning off potential Liberal support.

Unfortunately as the NDP started to ascend, Jack Layton passed away rather quickly from cancer, on the cusp of completely redefining how certain issues are framed and discussed in Canadian politics. His replacement is a fuckwit (basically the NDP version of Harper) that has let all the NDP gains slip away.

On the Liberal side the Liberals were facing complete collapse, so they made a hail mary pass on getting Justin Trudeau to lead the party despite his relative lack of political experience and accomplishments (he is the Son of the famous and incredibly popular Canadian Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau). Initially polls indicated a skyrocketing fortune for the liberals (majority government was a lock), but because it has been so long between then and now (and the next election) the cracks in that strategy are showing and the Liberals are falling in popularity again.

TLDR: probably not any time soon, realistic alternatives that can challenge the ~tried and true~ devil you know that happens to be a little far right to the taste of most Canadians does not seem to be metastasizing. Jack Layton would have absolutely knocked the conservatives out and I think our country would have been better for it, but it is a national tragedy that he passed away.

The funny part is, sort of, on what you might call ~Big C~ (conservative) issues the Harper government is pretty close to the Liberal Party (gay rights etc) so they get away with a lot of the smaller stuff that the public does not see or forgets about between then and now.

 

[maharg]

You see, that would have been a valid explanation if it weren't for two things.


1. This conflict attracted this kind of obsession even pre-1967, when the US did not give out much aid to Israel at all (and actually embargoed it for a while).

2. Doesn't explain why people on Europe and South America are obsessed even without paying a dime.

It is still a completely valid reason for you to personally care but I don't think it's the core reason. If anything, the American aid is a result of the obsession, not the cause of it.

This tends to be the kind of argument that's just beggin the question, where the assumed answer is that all those people are anti-semitic. I don't doubt that many are, though their anti-semitism doesn't make Israel's treatment of Palestine any less problematic. Still, though, I can't speak for people in Europe or South America, and I think if you've got numbers to back up the idea that "people care more about this" then maybe those numbers come with some answers there as well.

Still, there's a pretty easy explanation that's actually embedded in your rather leading questions: This conflict has been going on a long time. And I don't mean in the biblical-era sense of a long time, but it is one of the defining -- and unresolved -- conflicts of the 20th century. It is not at all surprising that awareness of it is extremely high, considering that it's been at a stalemate that hasn't varied much from its mean in 50 if not 70 years. It is an *exceptionally long* military occupation where a few plots of land have been passed around like a bottle of booze in a way that the major powers once partook in on a regular basis but mostly ended after World War II because it was seen as a contributory factor to the conflicts of the early 20th century (hence the Geneva Convention laws introduced at that time that are pretty explicitly anti-colonial, the ones that Israel is violating with population transfers).

Tibet is perhaps a good example of a similarly long occupation, but Tibetans have not fought back as readily nor as aggressively, and China is rather good at holding its conflicts within its borders. When it does flare up, though, people do care. The conflict between China and Taiwan is also in a long-lived stalemate, but they mostly leave each other alone. Still, it's an issue with high awareness and that quite a lot of people still care about.

ISIS is something like a year old. The extreme crackdown and civil war in Syria, among many other similar issues, are a product of the Arab Spring. Not to say that all of these things don't have deep roots in other, similar and older, conflicts, but they change more from year to year and it's rather natural that global awareness of them is more limited.

And this doesn't even get into how one-sided the conflict has become since Israel made peace with most of its neighbours as state actors. In Syria there is a well-armed opposition to a well-armed government, for example, which is a very different dynamic.

 

[makingmusic476]

You are aware that this is the very incident I was talking about when I mentioned an Italian reporter's tweets that corroborate Israel's account, right?

Yeah, as others have pointed out, I was referring to an earlier attack on a UN school. The IDF's story on the school went through the following phases:

1. We didn't fire on the school. A Hamas rocket likely fell short and hit it.
2. We did fire on the school, but only because Hamas militants were launching rockets from it.
3. We accidentally fired on the school when going after Hamas militants that were firing rockets *near* it.
4. We hit the school, but it's cool because no one died. I dunno where all those pictures of dead people and reports from journalists and the UN came from.

I can get you links to their comments later. (On my phone.)

 

[zeroOman]

Wouldn't be the first time people blamed Israel for something that was later revealed to be due to errant Palestinian rockets.

It's likely most people only heard of the first half of this incident. The update wasn't reported on as widely, for some strange reason.

I find this waird cuz here

He said Palestinian militants were firing rockets at Israel not far from the al-Masharawi home. Behnke said the area was targeted by Israeli airstrikes, but the salvo that hit the al-Masharawi home was "markedly different."

He said there was no significant damage to the house, unusual for an Israeli strike. He said witnesses reported that a fireball struck the roof of the house, suggesting it was a part of a homemade rocket. Behnke said the type of injuries sustained by al-Masharawi family members were consistent with rocket shrapnel.

and this was from 2013... if the strike u were talking about was the same as the one they mention in the article, they would have said so.. but the damage was big..... and let's be honest alot of ppl would have used this to push Hamas out of the pic.... like fatah ppl

 

[RedShift]

"Precision strikes"

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtviV3CCcAA3rwu.jpg:orig[IMG]

[url]https://twitter.com/drmerajs/status/494241622725378048[/url][/QUOTE]

Similar photo, not sure of the source but it's currently the top post on Reddit with the caption 'New photo from Gaza today looks like actual hell on earth'

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/H0NSLBk.jpg

 

[Cromat]

I posted this in another thread and its just as relevant.

How much money does the US government give Syria or ISIS...... O wait..... Also how many people on GAF support crimes in Syria or ISIS. You should only have to think critically about this for about 5 seconds to figure out why threads on GAF get a thousands of more posts when they are about Israel and Palestine then other topics. That doesn't mean that people care less about people in Syria or the people that ISIS is killing. It just means that there aren't people SUPPORTING Syria or ISIS killing people.

Unfortunately this is just a disgusting tactic by Israeli supporters to try and divert attention away from them.

1. Israel is not Assad and not ISIS. Not even close. It's not like Hamas either.

2. You'd be surprised, there were several Assad and Jihadist sympathizers here (some are posting in this thread).

3. There is very little Israel defending here. The vast majority here are vehemently against it. People who try to defend the Israeli point of view are ganged up on, demonized and silenced. Any news item or article that supports the Israeli perspective gets ignored. Israeli sources are trustworthy when they report negative things but are lying when they are positive. The IDF is never trusted (although it overwhelmingly owns up its activities and mistakes) while Hamas and Arab media (even PressTV) is never doubted. The wave of violent antisemitism throughout the world is completely unaddressed. Portraying this as some sort of tug-of-war between Israel's supporters and detractors is inaccurate.

The notion that this three week old conflict diverted attention from the years-old conflict in Syria is an interesting one, as is the assertion that Israel would somehow be behaving better in the West Bank if only people paid it less attention.

It absolutely did divert attention. The New York Times transferred its senior correspondent in Syria to Gaza even while the country saw its most violent week since the beginning of the civil war. 1700 killed in just two days. People getting decapitated and their heads put on sticks. If you are trying to say that Syria is some sort of stalement because it's been going through for three years then what is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict which is 60 years old? This week ISIS made its most serious advance into Syria in months in a coordinated attack and is currently ethnically cleansing Iraq and Syria of all of their Christians. This is news, important news and it is absolutely being ignored in favor of obsessing over this conflict.

Also, what I said is that if everyone in the world didn't have a fucking opinion on this conflict maybe the sides could have had better luck of solving it decades ago.

 

[Dopus]

So we're now at the point where posters are claiming there is an Anti-Israeli bias in the media. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

So we're now at the point where posters are claiming there is an Anti-Israeli bias in the media. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

it comes in cycles too. always a new one every few pages or so.

 

[Chumly]

1. Israel is not Assad and not ISIS. Not even close. It's not like Hamas either.

2. You'd be surprised, there were several Assad and Jihadist sympathizers here (some are posting in this thread).

3. There is very little Israel defending here. The vast majority here are vehemently against it. People who try to defend the Israeli point of view are ganged up on, demonized and silenced. Any news item or article that supports the Israeli perspective gets ignored. Israeli sources are trustworthy when they report negative things but are lying when they are positive. The IDF is never trusted (although it overwhelmingly owns up its activities and mistakes) while Hamas and Arab media (even PressTV) is never doubted. The wave of violent antisemitism throughout the world is completely unaddressed. Portraying this as some sort of tug-of-war between Israel's supporters and detractors is inaccurate.




It absolutely did divert attention. The New York Times transferred its senior correspondent in Syria to Gaza even while the country saw its most violent week since the beginning of the civil war. 1700 killed in just two days. People getting decapitated and their heads put on sticks. If you are trying to say that Syria is some sort of stalement because it's been going through for three years then what is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict which is 60 years old? This week ISIS made its most serious advance into Syria in months in a coordinated attack and is currently ethnically cleansing Iraq and Syria of all of their Christians. This is news, important news and it is absolutely being ignored in favor of obsessing over this conflict.

Also, what I said is that if everyone in the world didn't have a fucking opinion on this conflict maybe the sides could have had better luck of solving it decades ago.

First of all lets get this straight. Syria has been in the news on a weekly if not daily basis for the past 4 years in the media. Same can be said of ISIS when they sprang up. So any notion that them are being ignored is completely and utterly false. If you would actually watch the news you would see stories back to back talking about Syria/ISIS/Israel/Palestine. I wouldn't be surprised if you don't actually listen to the news and just got this off some Israeli talking sheet.

Just LOL at there being very little Israel defending here....... Also I don't know where your getting this wave of violent antisemitism. Just another made up talking point for Israel.

 

[Zen]

PressTV has been openly chided in these threads by pro palestinian people. Half the time when it gets posted it is !wait for a better source but~.

The wave of violent anti semitism throughout the world is completely unaddressed. Portraying this as some sort of tug-of-war between Israel's supporters and detractors is inaccurate.

Actually the majority of protestors seem to be centered around objecting the Palestinian conflict. Obviously this includes all people of a large spectrum, so people who hold anti semitic views are a part of it or given cover by it, but that is not the focus of the protests nor should it distract from the issue.

And you would be seeing this wave as you can it were it not for Israeli policy harming the reputation of Jews around the world. The whole ~this is anti semitism and that should be the real story~ is a sad and inhumane deflection. Were I jewish I would loathe the state of Israel and what it does in my name.

 

[jett]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw7FJ9y8m4M

He tells it like it is.

That girl must be some sort of psycho.

 

[El Topo]

Also I don't know where your getting this wave of violent antisemitism. Just another made up talking point for Israel.

Not following European news much?

 

[Jag]

Has anyone noticed that there is absolutely zero footage from Gaza of any Hamas fighters? Doesn't that seem a bit strange?

I saw this of Hamas fighters coming out of a tunnel and killing Israeli soldiers on Reddit today. Warning, it is graphic and shows Israeli soldiers getting killed. I couldn't watch the entire thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NAhozItSq0

 

[nib95]

Cromat, just so you know, a mod earlier said we should stop going off topic in digressing from conversation about the Palestine/Israel situation in to talk about Syria or other conflicts.

On a side note, I do actually know a few Syrians (Syrian by birth and citizenship) whom I met at some demonstration, and they actually supported Assad. It's not a clear cut situation really. Some support Assad, others don't, some see it as a case of the better of two evils etc. But that is a discussion for another thread, not this one.

 

[TrojanBlade]

"Precision strikes"

https://twitter.com/drmerajs/status/494241622725378048

((( ... american $$$$ at work

Honestly if anyone was the target of decades long oppression, persecution, "precision strikes" and humiliation, why would that person not fight against this? But everyone is labeled a terrorist.

 

[TheJLC]

"Precision strikes"

https://twitter.com/drmerajs/status/494241622725378048

Pretty damn precise if you ask me.

 

[shinobi602]

Similar photo, not sure of the source but it's currently the top post on Reddit with the caption 'New photo from Gaza today looks like actual hell on earth'

Seems like the same explosion but probably 30 seconds later when all the dust is billowing up. Sad

 

[zeroOman]

I saw this of Hamas fighters coming out of a tunnel and killing Israeli soldiers on Reddit today. Warning, it is graphic and shows Israeli soldiers getting killed. I couldn't watch the entire thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NAhozItSq0

oh .... wow xDDD "read this comment"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NAhozItSq0&google_comment_id=z13yxlwyvtj2upr5t04chhdrmzjrfdmicho

the IDF confirmed over 1000 dead terrorists (not citizens, vs 50 dead IDF soldiers). 'nuf said.

and to all of the racist terrorism and islam apologists: they didn't kill many israeli civilians, even though they are dying trying to, because we're good at protecting civilians. on the other hand, there're quite a few dead arab civilians because the hammas is good at having the civilians dead instead of them (even thogh mostly this tactic doesn't work out).

yep they are in denial....

 

[TheJLC]

oh .... wow xDDD

It seems you are pretty happy to see people get killed.

 

[Pelydr]

Well that's depressing. US I understand, the media is extremely pro Israeli, as are the politics, but Canada I'm more confused about. Interesting it's largely so different in most of the rest of the world.

Most European governments are just as pro Israel as the US. They just don't have the balls to show up to a UN vote or actually do something about the problem. Its just easier to blame the US while they continue to do jack shit. It's straight up pathetic. Don't get me wrong, its disgusting the support the US is giving Israel, but it's hilarious to see all these powerful Euro countries just ignoring the problem.

 

[Dopus]

I saw this of Hamas fighters coming out of a tunnel and killing Israeli soldiers on Reddit today. Warning, it is graphic and shows Israeli soldiers getting killed. I couldn't watch the entire thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NAhozItSq0

Disgusting video.

 

[neurosisxeno]

american $$$$ at work

The idea behind military aid for Israel is that we give them money to buy weapons, and a list of American arms manufacturers that they can buy them from. They buy weapons from said manufacturers, and American industry sees increased revenue. Not defending what Israel does with said weapons, in fact I condone it, but that's the logic of politicians.

 

[zeroOman]

It seems you are pretty happy to see people get killed.

I was talking about the comment... the one I quote .

 

[Chumly]

Not following European news much?

Violent antisemitism? I have seen the articles and it seems grossly over exaggerated to say that its a wave.

 

[Cromat]

It's receiving more attention for multiple reasons. One, because Palestine is and has been under brutal and illegal occupation for over half a century.

Secondly, the military repercussions are tertiary, Israel has been occupying and stealing more and more Palestinian land, demolishing Palestinian structures en masse, and displacing it's people by the hundreds, even thousands, week in week out (based on factual, detailed weekly UN reports), for decades with barely any gaps in-between. All to pave the way for the illegal settlements. Palestine has literally been disappearing off the map over the decades. You may have noticed that in today's society, territory stealing is illegal under international law and does not occur often without major reprisal.

Lastly, it's because much of the world (UN) is actually partly responsible for Israel's existence, and the current situation in the first place. Britain handed over the border managing to the UN, who carved out a piece of land for Israel (1947 borders) from the Palestinian mandate, no doubt knowing it would cause tensions, but not wanting the mass of post WW2 Jewish refugees etc settling in their own countries instead. In this sense much of the international community indirectly has more of an obligation here than elsewhere.

Though it is mainly due to sole US vetoes on UN resolutions critical to Israel (in opposition to the rest of the UN member states), that the UN has not been able to do more to deal with the occupation, and illegal aggressive expansion in the first place.
________

To summarise, what you're failing to realise, is that the situation and humanitarian crisis surrounding this conflict, is far more unique and poignant that most others, a result of which is more focus. And with good reason.

Here's a short video from Jewish Voice for Peace here that breaks down the situation in an accessible and simple way.

http://youtu.be/Y58njT2oXfE

This tends to be the kind of argument that's just beggin the question, where the assumed answer is that all those people are anti-semitic. I don't doubt that many are, though their anti-semitism doesn't make Israel's treatment of Palestine any less problematic. Still, though, I can't speak for people in Europe or South America, and I think if you've got numbers to back up the idea that "people care more about this" then maybe those numbers come with some answers there as well.

Still, there's a pretty easy explanation that's actually embedded in your rather leading questions: This conflict has been going on a long time. And I don't mean in the biblical-era sense of a long time, but it is one of the defining -- and unresolved -- conflicts of the 20th century. It is not at all surprising that awareness of it is extremely high, considering that it's been at a stalemate that hasn't varied much from its mean in 50 if not 70 years. It is an *exceptionally long* military occupation where a few plots of land have been passed around like a bottle of booze in a way that the major powers once partook in on a regular basis but mostly ended after World War II because it was seen as a contributory factor to the conflicts of the early 20th century (hence the Geneva Convention laws introduced at that time that are pretty explicitly anti-colonial, the ones that Israel is violating with population transfers).

Tibet is perhaps a good example of a similarly long occupation, but Tibetans have not fought back as readily nor as aggressively, and China is rather good at holding its conflicts within its borders. When it does flare up, though, people do care. The conflict between China and Taiwan is also in a long-lived stalemate, but they mostly leave each other alone. Still, it's an issue with high awareness and that quite a lot of people still care about.

ISIS is something like a year old. The extreme crackdown and civil war in Syria, among many other similar issues, are a product of the Arab Spring. Not to say that all of these things don't have deep roots in other, similar and older, conflicts, but they change more from year to year and it's rather natural that global awareness of them is more limited.

And this doesn't even get into how one-sided the conflict has become since Israel made peace with most of its neighbours as state actors. In Syria there is a well-armed opposition to a well-armed government, for example, which is a very different dynamic.

Thank you both for at least addressing the actual question.

nib95, regarding the occupation. First of all, it is not the source of all of this mess as you have said yourself.

Second of all, what happens in this thread repeatedly is that Israel is being treated as a single monolithic entity with no respect towards actual history. Three elected Israeli governments actively endorsed and offered to end the occupation. Israel gave Sinai back which is twice as large as the entire country, and withdrew from Gaza. People here would endorse any sort of conspiracy theory to reject the fact that Israel at several points wished to end the occupation and was serious about peace. It is honestly insulting to the people in Israel who believe in the two state solution. The occupation has lasted for 47 years but this is just not only Israel's fault I'm afraid, it is also the fault of the Palestinians and Arabs in general failing to convey that they will want to coexist with Israel in any form.

Thirdly, depicting Israel as some menacing empire is just misleading. At the end of the day the country is TINY. The entire country is 22000 squared km including the West Bank, the size of Wales and less than Crimea which has been recently taken by Russia. Israel fits in Saudi Arabia a hundred times. It is not some sprawling dark empire, and the settlements, although stupid and misguided sit on around 2% of the West Bank only (this is the Palestinian estimate for the built-up area of the settlements, look it up). I'm bringing this up not to downplay the suffering of Palestinians that is very real, but to say that this sort of demonization creates a distorted image of reality.

Israel is stronger than its neighbors militarily but it has no strategic depth. The modern Egyptian Army has a reasonable chance of mounting a successful attack on Israel if you consider its size and its naval advantage, being able to completely level the main Israeli population centers. If it weren't for its nuclear weapons it would likely have been taken over by Arab states if they just kept at it. This is just fact.

Israel's military strength does fuck all to help it against non-state actors. If it uses its full abilities it is condemned as disproportionate and portrayed as the villain. If it doesn't, if it would choose to send its troops deep into Gaza to go door to door, tunnel to tunnel to face Hamas fighters it would lose scores of troops only for Hamas and the world mocking it for losing to 'resistance fighters'.

Another thing: downplaying the role of antisemitism in this conflict is just wrong. Not all criticism of Israel is antisemitism, but a decent chunk of it ABSOLUTELY IS and it is important to acknowledge and reject that. Antisemitism is RAMPANT in the Middle East, denying this is irresponsible and hypocritical. (For the guy who said rising antisemitism was an Israeli 'talking point', read this http://www.newsweek.com/2014/08/08/exodus-why-europes-jews-are-feeling-once-again-261854.html . Also, fuck off for calling every opinion you don't agree with a talking point).

Lastly, this specific conflict should be understood as what it is: one more theater of a war raging across the Middle East, from Libya to Iraq. This is more about Egypt and Saudi Arabia vs. Turkey and Qatar than either Palestinians or Israelis.

The only silver-lining I see to this truly depressing war is that it might help with two things:

1. Demonstrate to the Israeli government and public that the status quo with the Palestinians is unsustainable and that it is within the country's interest to be proactive and take initiative to achieve a peaceful solution rather than being dragged again and again into useless conflicts that benefit no one.

2. Forge a new axis in the Middle East comprised of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Israel and the Palestinian Authority. This was the first time in the history of the conflict where an Arab state openly sided with the Israeli position. If Israel extends its hand to the PA in the West Bank it can forge a meaningful relationship with these countries. It's an opportunity that should not be missed.

There are some encouraging signs regarding both of these, however it is too early to tell.

 

[Facism]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw7FJ9y8m4M

He tells it like it is.

Fucking hell, he dominated the issue from his first words to his last.

 

[I-hate-u]

I just saw this, and I had to post it here (didn't know where else). Its 5 months old, and is 40 minutes, but my GOD what a powerful eye opener video.

An Israeli Soldier's Story - Eran Efrati
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93hqlmrZKd8

 

[RustyNails]

Similar photo, not sure of the source but it's currently the top post on Reddit with the caption 'New photo from Gaza today looks like actual hell on earth'

I can't even wrap my head around this. So according to IDF, was there a missile launcher in everyone of those buildings?

 

[Diablos]

Similar photo, not sure of the source but it's currently the top post on Reddit with the caption 'New photo from Gaza today looks like actual hell on earth'

Holy fucking shit.

 

[maharg]

Second of all, what happens in this thread repeatedly is that Israel is being treated as a single monolithic entity with no respect towards actual history. Three elected Israeli governments actively endorsed and offered to end the occupation. Israel gave Sinai back which is twice as large as the entire country, and withdrew from Gaza. People here would endorse any sort of conspiracy theory to reject the fact that Israel at several points wished to end the occupation and was serious about peace. It is honestly insulting to the people in Israel who believe in the two state solution. The occupation has lasted for 47 years but this is just not only Israel's fault I'm afraid, it is also the fault of the Palestinians and Arabs in general failing to convey that they will want to coexist with Israel in any form.

I won't argue that Israel has come closer at times, but as close as they've been they have still made demands that to me seem unreasonable, and I still maintain that there is no excuse for continuing the settlements and any Israeli government that doesn't stop them is only half-heartedly serious about peace. And I don't mean in just one region, they are not selectively wrong, they are all wrong. The only things Israel *can* do with that land that would be legal would be to annex *and* enfranchise all residents or devolve governance to the Palestinians. The settlements are fundamentally wrong and always have been and I will not waver on that. As I've said about a hundred times, in any process towards a two-state peace Israel's first step will *have* to be removing the settlements. Palestine can't exist with the land organized the way it is now, and no nation could.

As for being insulting to the Israeli people, I no more mean insult to Israeli individuals when I criticize their *government's* handling of Palestine than I do to Americans when I criticize their actions in Iraq. There is obviously an opposition to the settlements and the blockade within Israel and I have huge respect for those people, especially since what I've heard from people who live there has suggested it's an increasingly socially risky position to take in light of the current conflict.

Unfortunately, this is why everyone should be more critical of their government's actions, because they don't always represent us. Canada's unconditional support for Israel is wrong as well, but I am not condemning all Canadians for it. Likewise Americans.

Blame has shifted over the years and there are absolutely points where it was Arabs who were in the wrong. This is, however, only the case now if you're willing to accept that Hamas' threat to Israel is existential, which it clearly is not. Israel's threat to Gaza in particular, but even Palestine as a whole, is entirely existential though. They hold the power to break Palestine's existence, and only using that power in a measured quantity that's short of full on genocide earns them no cookies.

Thirdly, depicting Israel as some menacing empire is just misleading. At the end of the day the country is TINY. The entire country is 22000 squared km including the West Bank, the size of Wales and less than Crimea which has been recently taken by Russia. Israel fits in Saudi Arabia a hundred times. It is not some sprawling dark empire, and the settlements, although stupid and misguided sit on around 2% of the West Bank only (this is the Palestinian estimate for the built-up area of the settlements, look it up). I'm bringing this up not to downplay the suffering of Palestinians that is very real, but to say that this sort of demonization creates a distorted image of reality.

The built-up portion may only be 2%, but Israeli controlled territory around them definitely exceeds that. And it is a divisive and powerful control that leaves communities separated and people separated from land they are farming, having to travel through Israeli checkpoints in order to go to work or tend their land. All of this is also well documented.

But even if we took it as 2%, they are still entitled to exactly 2% less than that under international law and the understanding developed through countless deaths and nearly endless destruction of both property and culture that colonial behaviour is wrong. Yes, in a sense it's unfair that Israel isn't supposed to be as barbaric as the UK was in the 19th century, but this is an unfairness that I'm pretty comfortable with.

Israel is stronger than its neighbors militarily but it has no strategic depth. The modern Egyptian Army has a reasonable chance of mounting a successful attack on Israel if you consider its size and its naval advantage, being able to completely level the main Israeli population centers. If it weren't for its nuclear weapons it would likely have been taken over by Arab states if they just kept at it. This is just fact.

This is irrelevant now as Egypt in particular is pretty cosey with Israel right now. Yes, for a brief period they were not, but then they had a bloody military coup and now Egypt is basically Israel's best friend in the region. There's this tendency to live in the past with these kinds of arguments, as if the threats of 1970 are static and eternal. It's been a long time and Israel's might is quite large.

Israel's military strength does fuck all to help it against non-state actors. If it uses its full abilities it is condemned as disproportionate and portrayed as the villain. If it doesn't, if it would choose to send its troops deep into Gaza to go door to door, tunnel to tunnel to face Hamas fighters it would lose scores of troops only for Hamas and the world mocking it for losing to 'resistance fighters'.

I agree. I think it would be a genuinely better path to peace to not use their military strength on Palestine. Especially for dubious reasons like an unconfirmed claim of the government of Gaza being involved in the murder of Israelis in the West Bank that turn out to be less than true by their own admission. Without the epic military reaction of Israel to false information, this current conflict would not even be happening. Maybe it still would have blown up later, but it remains that Israel instigated this one.

Another thing: downplaying the role of antisemitism in this conflict is just wrong. Not all criticism of Israel is antisemitism, but a decent chunk of it ABSOLUTELY IS and it is important to acknowledge and reject that. Antisemitism is RAMPANT in the Middle East, denying this is irresponsible and hypocritical. (For the guy who said rising antisemitism was an Israeli 'talking point', read this http://www.newsweek.com/2014/08/08/exodus-why-europes-jews-are-feeling-once-again-261854.html . Also, fuck off for calling every opinion you don't agree with a talking point).

I don't deny that it's rampant in the middle east, and I'm not sure where you think I did. I do think that it's impossible to have a meaningful discussion about the subject if it's assumed that everything you're saying has roots in some kind of anti-whatever belief, even if you're perfectly willing to explain the factual basis of your argument.

Lastly, this specific conflict should be understood as what it is: one more theater of a war raging across the Middle East, from Libya to Iraq. This is more about Egypt and Saudi Arabia vs. Turkey and Qatar than either Palestinians or Israelis.

This is quite a bold conspiracy theory, but I don't have much to say about it. We're talking about Palestine here, and regardless of the question of whether actors in it are part of some greater conflict, we can still discuss whether what Israel is doing is wrong on its face.

The only silver-lining I see to this truly depressing war is that it might help with two things:

1. Demonstrate to the Israeli government and public that the status quo with the Palestinians is unsustainable and that it is within the country's interest to be proactive and take initiative to achieve a peaceful solution rather than being dragged again and again into useless conflicts that benefit no one.

2. Forge a new axis in the Middle East comprised of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Israel and the Palestinian Authority. This was the first time in the history of the conflict where an Arab state openly sided with the Israeli position. If Israel extends its hand to the PA in the West Bank it can forge a meaningful relationship with these countries. It's an opportunity that should not be missed.

There are some encouraging signs regarding both of these, however it is too early to tell.

I am largely discouraged on these things, where it seems that the Israeli government has been hijacked by its far right interests who have learned ways to frame their views in more palatable ways or through doublespeak, as well as electoral monkeying (as has, imo, much of the western world, including my own country). What hope there was for peace from the Israeli government in the past (during Oslo or at the start of the disengagement of Gaza) has pretty much evaporated now.

I see little chance of this reversing any time soon.

 

[Insane Metal]

That explosion looks like the one I saw on TV tonight... of a power station being bombed in Gaza. So sad.

 

[foxtrot3d]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw7FJ9y8m4M

He tells it like it is.

Oh shit, he killed it right there. I always hate those emotional arguments and he just shut down that crap.

 

[Freezie KO]

Thank you both for at least addressing the actual question.

nib95, regarding the occupation. First of all, it is not the source of all of this mess as you have said yourself.

Second of all, what happens in this thread repeatedly is that Israel is being treated as a single monolithic entity with no respect towards actual history. Three elected Israeli governments actively endorsed and offered to end the occupation. Israel gave Sinai back which is twice as large as the entire country, and withdrew from Gaza. People here would endorse any sort of conspiracy theory to reject the fact that Israel at several points wished to end the occupation and was serious about peace. It is honestly insulting to the people in Israel who believe in the two state solution. The occupation has lasted for 47 years but this is just not only Israel's fault I'm afraid, it is also the fault of the Palestinians and Arabs in general failing to convey that they will want to coexist with Israel in any form.

Thirdly, depicting Israel as some menacing empire is just misleading. At the end of the day the country is TINY. The entire country is 22000 squared km including the West Bank, the size of Wales and less than Crimea which has been recently taken by Russia. Israel fits in Saudi Arabia a hundred times. It is not some sprawling dark empire, and the settlements, although stupid and misguided sit on around 2% of the West Bank only (this is the Palestinian estimate for the built-up area of the settlements, look it up). I'm bringing this up not to downplay the suffering of Palestinians that is very real, but to say that this sort of demonization creates a distorted image of reality.

Israel is stronger than its neighbors militarily but it has no strategic depth. The modern Egyptian Army has a reasonable chance of mounting a successful attack on Israel if you consider its size and its naval advantage, being able to completely level the main Israeli population centers. If it weren't for its nuclear weapons it would likely have been taken over by Arab states if they just kept at it. This is just fact.

Israel's military strength does fuck all to help it against non-state actors. If it uses its full abilities it is condemned as disproportionate and portrayed as the villain. If it doesn't, if it would choose to send its troops deep into Gaza to go door to door, tunnel to tunnel to face Hamas fighters it would lose scores of troops only for Hamas and the world mocking it for losing to 'resistance fighters'.

Another thing: downplaying the role of antisemitism in this conflict is just wrong. Not all criticism of Israel is antisemitism, but a decent chunk of it ABSOLUTELY IS and it is important to acknowledge and reject that. Antisemitism is RAMPANT in the Middle East, denying this is irresponsible and hypocritical. (For the guy who said rising antisemitism was an Israeli 'talking point', read this http://www.newsweek.com/2014/08/08/exodus-why-europes-jews-are-feeling-once-again-261854.html . Also, fuck off for calling every opinion you don't agree with a talking point).

Lastly, this specific conflict should be understood as what it is: one more theater of a war raging across the Middle East, from Libya to Iraq. This is more about Egypt and Saudi Arabia vs. Turkey and Qatar than either Palestinians or Israelis.

The only silver-lining I see to this truly depressing war is that it might help with two things:

1. Demonstrate to the Israeli government and public that the status quo with the Palestinians is unsustainable and that it is within the country's interest to be proactive and take initiative to achieve a peaceful solution rather than being dragged again and again into useless conflicts that benefit no one.

2. Forge a new axis in the Middle East comprised of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Israel and the Palestinian Authority. This was the first time in the history of the conflict where an Arab state openly sided with the Israeli position. If Israel extends its hand to the PA in the West Bank it can forge a meaningful relationship with these countries. It's an opportunity that should not be missed.

There are some encouraging signs regarding both of these, however it is too early to tell.

Great post.