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Has the "strong female" trope become so common, that it's now a stereotype?

pramod

Banned
Recently I feel like Hollywood has pushed things so far the other way, everything has become reversed.

Now you can't even find a popular ANYTHING that has a damsel-in-distress female character.

The female character is always strong. She never needs rescuing or saving. She has no weaknesses. She is always more capable than most, if not all, the other male characters.
Isn't it pretty much a stereotype now?
Especially if the female is a minority. Then she is NEVER weak.

In fact I can't think of any recent anything that has a damsel in distress. Can you?

Edit: Actually I just thought of one myself, Madeline in Die Another Day. But that's the only one I can think of.
 
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EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
In fact I can't think of any recent anything that has a damsel in distress. Can you?
Mila Kunis in Jupiter Ascending. The movie received a huge amount of flak for having her be a damsel in distress for the entire story.

I didn't care for the way it was handled either, but that's probably because the story beats are repeated each act. Mila gets captured by one of the aristocratic turds, Wolf-Tatum rescues her. 3x. She didn't need to be a badass action heroine, but some sort of agency on her character's part at some point in the story would've been more interesting.
 

Soltype

Member
Stop watching new movies and just watch Tank Girl. Cinema peaked with that masterpiece.
No lies detected

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YukiOnna

Member
I don't know about stereotype, but I feel like I see them everywhere now which leads to no variety. But I'm someone who enjoys the hero saves princess/heroine type stories and moments so it's a bit sad they've died out. The other thing is, I enjoy more timid personalities so there isn't really any outright likable quality in such characters for me these days. Thankfully, other mediums still gives me plenty.

Ah well, as long as it's a good story overall I can ignore it.
 

Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Strong women in fiction are not new. They are certainly more common now, but the only reason its an issue now is due to politics.


Nobody was complaining when this badass was kicking dicks and turning every young boy into a little horndog.

p184132_n67897_cc_v9_ab.jpg



The hyper focus on the idea of "strong female character" will fade as time goes on as society finds something else to focus on and complain about.
 

Ionian

Member
No lies detected

tumblr_mlar9aPOdS1sn3o10o10_500.gif

My God, used to collect 2000AD. Tank Girl was awesome. Even had episodes back to the 60's. Think I was the only one who bought in the local newsagent.

A nerd. Sold them all. Regret nothing.

Got fuck all for them. Oh well. Comics, a losers game.
 

Soltype

Member
Strong women in fiction are not new. They are certainly more common now, but the only reason its an issue now is due to politics.


Nobody was complaining when this badass was kicking dicks and turning every young boy into a little horndog.

p184132_n67897_cc_v9_ab.jpg



The hyper focus on the idea of "strong female character" will fade as time goes on as society finds something else to focus on and complain about.
My problem with "strong female character" is that today it's just women being traditionally masculine with no real motivation.Real strong female characters exhibit strength in femininity. Ripley had a motherly bond with Newt, Sarah Connor learned to see her son a her child and not an important figure, charly baltimore fought her daughter and learned to love motherhood/being a wife. Men and woman can have similar behavior , but the motives will be different.

My God, used to collect 2000AD. Tank Girl was awesome. Even had episodes back to the 60's. Think I was the only one who bought in the local newsagent.

A nerd. Sold them all. Regret nothing.

Got fuck all for them. Oh well. Comics, a losers game.
Same, sold mine off early to mid 2000s
 
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Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
My problem with "strong female character" is that today it's just women being traditionally masculine with no real motivation.Real strong female characters exhibit strength in femininity. Ripley had a motherly bond with Newt, Sarah Connor learned to see her son a her child and not an important figure, charly baltimore fought her daughter and learned to love motherhood/being a wife. Men and woman can have similar behavior , but the motives will be different.
A woman can be a strong character and role model without her motivations being tied to a family based reason.
 

Ionian

Member
My problem with "strong female character" is that today it's just women being traditionally masculine with no real motivation.Real strong female characters exhibit strength in femininity. Ripley had a motherly bond with Newt, Sarah Connor learned to see her son a her child and not an important figure, charly baltimore fought her daughter and learned to love motherhood/being a wife. Men and woman can have similar behavior , but the motives will be different.


Same, sold mine off early to mid 2000s
Think I sold my entire collection for 100 pounds. And I thought I'd be a millionaire. Some Grand-pa bought them. Made me smile as it was for his Nephew. Went to a good home at least. (I had all the good shit/ Dark Horse/ X-Men, The Maxx, you name it).
 

Soltype

Member
A woman can be a strong character and role model without her motivations being tied to a family based reason.

True, but most women are likely to be mothers more than ever in the US, and women are in intimate proximity with children for more often than men. Women are also far more likely to put their children above their careers.It is not far-fetched to have a woman go through an ordeal for her kids. No one is saying that you can't have women doing amazing things without family being a factor but it's disingenuous. Men and women are different in many ways and a key area is handling of family , but it's not being represented honestly in Media.

Think I sold my entire collection for 100 pounds. And I thought I'd be a millionaire. Some Grand-pa bought them. Made me smile as it was for his Nephew. Went to a good home at least. (I had all the good shit/ Dark Horse/ X-Men, The Maxx, you name it).
i didn't get much either, was mostly 90s comics, think i still have some laying around.
 
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BadBurger

Is 'That Pure Potato'
What you're referring to in fiction is the Mary Sue. Coined in the 1970's, it has existed sporadically since in western fiction. Writing most women characters as Mary Sue's in western media has merely been a fad amongst writers for the past decade give or take a few years. If I had to guess it was fueled by the sudden increase in volume of both women writers and content (movies and TV shows) in general. The absolute earliest example I can personally think of was in 2002 with Mila Jovovich in the film adaptation of Resident Evil. Though that character was still flawed and required the aid of her allies - but it was a shadow of things to come.

In some cultures similar types of strong, though not supernaturally good at everything, female characters have been common for much longer. Throughout much of asia for example. There are cultural and societal reasons for this going back centuries. I think most young dudes complaining about strong women warrior characters (and whatnot) today would be absolutely shocked if they went back and watched many Chinese / Hong Kong action films from the 90's, or watched anime - particularly the big box office feature length animated theatrical hits - of Japan from the 80's right on through to the early 2000's.
 
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Gifmaker

Member
Why would anyone want a damsel in distress character these days? They are so boring.
It does however appeal to one of male's oldest instincts, the wish to provide for and protect a loved one, and is therefore a supereasy emotional anchor to connect to, something filmmakers supposedly want to do with their audiences. Also, the damsel in distress character does not necessarily have to be boring; neither does she have to be the most interesting character ever, especially if the movie is not about her first and foremost. I see nothing really wrong with this trope.
 

Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
True, but most women are likely to be mothers more than ever in the US, and women are in intimate proximity with children for more often than men. Women are also far more likely to put their children above their careers.It is not far-fetched to have a woman go through an ordeal for her kids. No one is saying that you can't have women doing amazing things without family being a factor but it's disingenuous. Men and women are different in many ways and a key area is handling of family , but it's not being represented honestly in Media.
I am going to choose to not comment on this so that I can avoid the eventual ban for what I want to say.
 
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HoodWinked

Member
The thing is that Tropes occur because its something that is popular and worked. It's a crowd pleaser and it made Hollywood money, until it gets worn out.

but this retarded version of "Strong Wamen" is not popular, is overtly forced, riddled with terrible writing and sucks ass. But in spite of that this trope is forced down audience's throats, that wherein lies the problem. This trope wasn't a natural phenomenon it was artificially created by ideologists/politics due to hivemind like thinking in Hollywood. And instead of the normal course correction they blame the audiences. Really?! This is insane behavior to be antagonistic to customers.
 

Cyberpunkd

Member
I love strong characters, no matter their chosen gender. Give me more Ripleys and Sarah Connors. Give me fewer Rey Skywalkers.
This is an excellent example - Ripley and Sarah Connor were badasses, without doing their own psych self evaluation every 10 minutes in the movie, exactly the same way a male characters wouldn’t.

Now everyone needs to constantly re-examine their thoughts and behaviours whereas the audience just wants to see shit being blow up.
 
I think the key problem is not strong female characters (no one was moaning about Sarah Conner, Ripley or Xena) but how unpleasant most of them are these days.

It's the constant put downs of men, the current of vindictiveness, resentment and spite that characterises most of these 'strong women'. In reality they are often toxic bullies that you would never want to know in real life.

If Hollywood can drop the misandry and go back to creating characters that people actually want to watch (which I think they will) then things should level out.
 

kruis

Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
All the people that complained that there weren't enough strong women to begin with?

I agree, if a movie is good then a movie is good, but nowadays a movie can't just e good. It has to send a message.

I think it's not even about sending a message but about avoiding criticism. Producers are ticking all the boxes so their shows won't get pounded upon by blue-haired, nose-ringed crazies among reviewers and on social media.
 

Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Similarly a woman can be a strong character and role model while her motivations are tired to a family based reason.
Agreed. But they also do not need to be tied down to the usual stereotypical family role in order for it to matter. Its not the 1950's.


Both forms can be valid.
 
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Gifmaker

Member
I think the key problem is not strong female characters (no one was moaning about Sarah Conner, Ripley or Xena) but how unpleasant most of them are these days.

It's the constant put downs of men, the current of vindictiveness, resentment and spite that characterises most of these 'strong women'. In reality they are often toxic bullies that you would never want to know in real life.
This video came to my mind when I read your post:



It's really a problem when your actress also comes across as unlikable and toxic in RL.
 

Ammogeddon

Member
We’ve actually had strong female characters for years. Not that many though for sure. Just off the cuff you have Ripley and Sarah Connor.

The issue these days is that there are so many badly written ones, especially in Hollywood films.
 

D-ray

Member
Kind of mediocre now days, but no so MUCH to become stereotype yet.
I don't hate "strong women" characters, but they must have a context of some sort or (as you said) they just become a parody.
 

gradient

Resident Cheap Arse
I'd say the biggest issue with the trope is that all of these female characters are presented to be strong at the expense of male characters.

These "strong" female characters aren't strong because they've been built up by good writing and character development (e.g. Ripley, Sarah Connor) but instead by tearing down male characters. Their "strength" is nothing more than a lowering of the bar, placing them in direct contrast to male characters by undermining and deliberately making the accompanying male characters exhibit weak traits, characteristics and capabilities. The strong traits and capability of these female chacters is not earned, but instead is simply a given that the audience is supposed to accept and yet it's their accompanying lack of flaws and struggles that completely undermines the audiences ability to believe, emphasize and get behind that.

It's a prime example of poor and incapable writing. This lazy idea that instead of building something up to make it great you can instead just present it as great and tear everything else around it down in the hope that lowering the bar in such a way will provide an equivalent result.
 

kruis

Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
As long as humans have existed there have always been strong female characters in storytelling.
Hollywood has just forgotten that a world existed before 2015.

So much easier to be brave and courageous if you pretend the recent past was n't much different from the Dark Ages.
 

kruis

Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
I'd say the biggest issue with the trope is that all of these female characters are presented to be strong at the expense of male characters.

These "strong" female characters aren't strong because they've been built up by good writing and character development (e.g. Ripley, Sarah Connor) but instead by tearing down male characters. Their "strength" is nothing more than a lowering of the bar, placing them in direct contrast to male characters by undermining and deliberately making the accompanying male characters exhibit weak traits, characteristics and capabilities. The strong traits and capability of these female chacters is not earned, but instead is simply a given that the audience is supposed to accept and yet it's their accompanying lack of flaws and struggles that completely undermines the audiences ability to believe, emphasize and get behind that.

It's a prime example of poor and incapable writing. This lazy idea that instead of building something up to make it great you can instead just present it as great and tear everything else around it down in the hope that lowering the bar in such a way will provide an equivalent result.

Critical Drinker, is that you?
 

thefool

Member
If by strong you mean women written as if they were men movie characters, its less of a stereotype but more of a (bizarre) cultural indoctrination. More than tiring is downright absurd. These characters are typically present in schlock.
If by strong you mean women written as independent, ambitious, calculating, morally ambiguous, nuanced, hardworking, loyal, diligent, competent, etc. then no its not a stereotype but an actual case of under-representation. It's not like there's a kim on every other corner.

rhea-seehorn.webp



The sexualized woman and the masculinized woman are simply different sides of the same coin.
 
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Maiden Voyage

Gold™ Member
Strong women in fiction are not new. They are certainly more common now, but the only reason its an issue now is due to politics.


Nobody was complaining when this badass was kicking dicks and turning every young boy into a little horndog.

p184132_n67897_cc_v9_ab.jpg



The hyper focus on the idea of "strong female character" will fade as time goes on as society finds something else to focus on and complain about.


Gabrielle was my crush. Still is.

iu


All the people that complained that there weren't enough strong women to begin with?

I agree, if a movie is good then a movie is good, but nowadays a movie can't just e good. It has to send a message.

Businesses are being run this way too. The populace is yearning for a moral compass. Movies will be this way until the next thing comes along.
 
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Soltype

Member
I am going to choose to not comment on this so that I can avoid the eventual ban for what I want to say.
What part do you disagree with?
Agreed. But they also do not need to be tied down to the usual stereotypical family role in order for it to matter. Its not the 1950's.


Both forms can be valid.
I agree, but the idea of women caring for children is not stereotypical as it's a social reality.Evidence shows that even today, woman predominantly care for children, whether at school, daycare ,or at home, even most pediatricians are women.
 
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NeoIkaruGAF

Gold Member
Pen a good character and few people will find a reason to complain.
Plenty of strong women in the history of fiction, from Queen Dido to Scarlett O’Hara to Ellen Ripley and Xena. All believable people, no matter how fantastic their predicament. They didn’t always win, they didn’t have everything their way, they didn’t always have the perfect rebuttal. Yet everyone can relate with them and appreciate their struggle. Their secret is always the same: good writing. You don’t know how things will turn out for them, and even when you already know the story, the story is still interesting and so is the character.

Compare this to poorly written characters who can’t do anything wrong ever, whose problems are alway other people’s fault, who always have the perfect comeback. These characters would have perfect lives, it’s other people that give them a hell of a time for, ahem, “merely existing”. Their stories aren’t interesting, because the writers clearly don’t think that story matters insofar as the character is representing for some imaginary audience and is sending a message. The smallest things make up the meat of their stories, because the big things are so by the numbers that even the character herself seems to think it’s all in a day’s work. Big meanie threatening the world? Ho-hum, same ol’ same ol’. But getting catcalled or mansplained? Hell no, can’t have that in my perfect world!

There’s no stakes, no tension with these characters. You know from the very beginning the girl is gonna be alright. Exhibit A: Reeva in Obi-Wan Kenobi. A completely uninteresting character going through nonsensical events made up on the spot to show how badass she is (she makes a poor show of it though), who survives in spite of all logic and of course is actually kinda the victim at the end of the story and gets the get-out-of-jail-free card because of course she does.

People who think that the story of a woman struggling for/because of her children is stereotypical and demeaning are the people who really haven’t been paying attention to real women. They should see/read more stories about women struggling about their offspring too, because those stories can get pretty intense. Way more than a chick in a costume fighting against the patriarchy - oh, and saving the world from the biggest threat ever, I guess.

Of course there‘s plenty of more heroic stuff women can do, both in real life and in fiction. Just write it well. Make it interesting. Don’t open your work of fiction with a scene where the female main character is immediately established as both a victim of the system and a badass that fights back with a witty one-liner. In Alien, Ripley isn‘t even established as the main character for a while. Your character isn’t perfect, she mustn’t be if you want me to take her seriously. Your character‘s message should be: THIS woman is strong, not: ALL women are perfect and strong, and this is just one example.
 
Gabrielle was my crush. Still is.

iu




Businesses are being run this way too. The populace is yearning for a moral compass. Movies will be this way until the next thing comes along.

The needle on that compass must be spinning like a blade on a helicopter. The morals being pushed today aren't good. Here's to hoping we go back to celebrating independence and move away from Peter pan syndrome.

I miss the action movies of the 80s and the gritty moves of the 00s. The current trend of rehashing old ideas isn't working. Hollywood can't even remake films properly anymore.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
"Strong Woman" now means "Badass male character with breasts". It's all about how hard she can punch, how single minded in the pursuit of justice/vengeance she can be, etc". For male characters this almost always comes at considerable expense. They are drunks, estranged from friends/family, and very self-destructive. Often "Strong women" share all the positive aspects of this archetype; the ability to wade through hordes of mooks with ease, pound booze with the best of them and wake up with only a 2 tylenol hangover, and invulnerability to being shown up for the cads they are, but rarely have the negative consequences of being near recluses, being only in transient shallow relationships, and having death stalk everyone around them constantly.

For stuff marketed to MEN, this power fantasy works quite well as men are overwhelmingly the ones who sacrifice their personal physical and emotional wellbeing to go out and do dangerous work to provide for their family and the idea that all that sacrifice PAYS OFF for them. But for media marketed to women or "everyone" that archetype has now been deemed "problematic" but is has just been replaced by a female character and all the negative parts stripped away. It is not nearly as seductive and convincing.

Take possibly the purest example of this male archetype Commando. Matrix is an unstoppable force of nature but is also a devoted and loving father. But he has lost his spouse and is a near recluse (got a nice pension when he left his kill...er rescue team apparently). But Schwarzenegger's Olympian level charisma and impeccable physique carry that film. Replace John Matrix with Jane Matrix and that whole film would fall apart without EXCEPTIONAL casting because the 'character' of John Matrix is paper fucking thin, the film is a visual orgy of violence that only hypermasculinity and machismo turned to 11 can really deliver. Would any woman relate to Jane Matrix, a shredded MMA fighter or wrestler turned actress, going through the same motions? I doubt it, even with the "gotta save my daughter" plot has a hook.

It can be done, Cynthia Rothrock built a film career doing it. Lately Elsa Patek (Chris Hemsworth's wife) did it with Interceptor. But again, the appeal of those films isn't really the character, its the butt kicking and if there are ANY flaws in that delivery, then the character has to shoulder the load and let's face it, a typical 5'2" stringbean actress just can't do that to the level of 6'4" Seagal.

I'm waiting for the film about a tough male firefighter who takes up knitting and within 3 months starts to win national competitions, has to face extreme sexism from all the grandmas and spinster aunts who typically dominate in that hobby, and how supportive all his firefighter buddies are that he can crochet a hat out of fire resistant thread for all of them. You know, get some masculine men and push them into womens spaces and see how they like it (or rather, how much money will it make).
 

Fbh

Member
The trope isn't as much the "strong woman" as it is the "Woke strong woman":
-Mary Sue that's great at everything and hardly if ever needs help.
- Physically strong, she is probably also smarter than everyone else but it's important that she is physically strong too.
-Annoying cocky personality
-Her "badassness" is often highlighted by having some male character who is weak, dumb or just incompetent in comparison

I think a good recent example of a strong female character that works well was Naru in Prey.
-She isn't a Mary Sue, she actually fucks up a bunch of times.
-There's an element of her having to fight to be taken seriously by the male hunters but it's a more personal story (instead of "for women!!") and she actually has to struggle to prove herself. It's not framed as: "actually she is 10 times better than all the guys!!!".
-The main male side character is skilled and supportive.
 

Trunx81

Member
I’m pretty sure it startet with The Hunger Games and Twilight. It’s just not the “strong woman can do anything” trope, but she’s also so insecure at the beginning that young women can relate to her.

I can recommend everyone to READ the book The Neverending Story, where in the second half the trope of the young, insecure boy becoming strong and independent gets turned around and he crumbles into nothingness. Michael Ende did this masterfully, the last chapters of the book are something you’ll never see in other heroes journeys.
 
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