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[LuchaShaq]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HJihi5rB_Ek


She dismantles and embarrasses the half assed work that 160,000 dollars bought.

Why couldn't someone like this have gotten the funding instead?

The speaker in the video is very kind to Anita while shredding her "research" to pieces.

 

[cyberheater]

Yes but isn't the main point that sometimes you just want to act out a fantasy in a video game by being the hero and rescuing the girl. It doesn't have to be more complicated then that.

 

[ASIS]

Already talked about this video in Anita's thread. Some good stuff, but nothing that directly contradicts Anita's main points. Some of it was utter crap though.

 

[APZonerunner]

Not so sure about the Peach stuff, but she is so right about Zelda. Really felt like Anita missed the point of many of the post-SNES iterations of Zelda in her video. In OOT and TP in particular she ends up kidnapped but is also the vital driving force behind everything; without her Link would be screwed and fail, everything would be broken.

 

[Sceptic]

I think she misses the point of Anita video. Sure in the lore these are monarchs with power but in the context of playing a game they are nothing more than trophies. Good to see some discussion about the topic though.

 

[Kikujiro]

The video is well done in the fact that it shows how Anita's criticisms are easily dismissed because they are completely biased and not well researched.

 

[Lowlander2]

Not bad, but not great. She has the view that the metanarrative in the game is completely divorced from what we view of these characters, a distinction that simply shouldn't be there. In a perfect world, Peach being treated as a princess and not a damsel by the characters in her own game would also reflect what we think, but that simply is not the case. Gameplay informs narrative, as it should, but this can lead to crippling dissonance between what the story wants us to think and what the gameplay actually tells us to think.

I understand her argument. But I don't think it really works in all cases.

 

[DragonSworne]

I agree with her that Anita made the definition of "damsel in distress" too broad for the sole purpose of attacking these characters and games.

Basically, according to Anita, even if you are Michelle Obama and you are locked out of your car, if a male AAA worker gains access to your car, you are a damsel in distress and you are nothing but a trophy. Sorry first lady of the United States, that's just how it according to Anita.

Anita's work is completely bias.

 

[dsvoid]

I got to something like two thirds of the video and disagree with it.

-While peach is important in the context of the mushroom kingdom, she is not at all important in the games where she is captured, and you don't get much of a feel for her character developing, apart from maybe Paper Mario.
-Peach makes appearances in the spinoff franchises of nintendo like smash bros and racing, but in those games all the characters are devoid of personality except for their taunts.
-Smash Bros selling tons of copies is an irrelevant point; Peach could have easily not been in the game and it would still sell like hotcakes.

Similar points for zelda.

 

[SirIgbyCeaser]

KiteTale's voice sounds so cute.

 

[pixlexic]

good video.

Its not that I dislike Anita I just hated how everyone automatically jumped to her side without any thought to the real subject matter. Its as if they were just clamoring for any cause to support.

 

[tkscz]

I think she misses the point of Anita video. Sure in the lore these are monarchs with power but in the context of playing a game they are nothing more than trophies. Good to see some discussion about the topic though.

The thing is, in the context of the story, or the world in which it's in, the DiD has far more importance than the rescuer, especially when comparing Link and Zelda. I love playing games for gameplay, but when the objective is to rescue someone, I never see them as objects. I know full and well that Zelda has more importance to Link when rescuing Zelda. I never see it as romantic or in any other way. Link has to save Zelda because of how important she is, not because she's a prize of some sort. Now I don't speak for everyone, but I do feel personal disagreement with Anita's claims against Zelda. Peach however, hard to defend that one.

good video.

Its not that I dislike Anita I just hated how every automatically jumped to her side without any thought to the real subject matter. Its as if they were just clamoring for any cause to support.

Pretty much this for the Anita thread. A lot of of defenders are defending her against well spoken and logical counter-arguments, for the sake of defending her. Most of her youtube defenders, don't even defend with logical come back, just insults and idiocy no different from her attackers.

 

[Famassu]

I haven't watched Anita's video so I can't really say too much about that, but I didn't find this response particularly strong either.

 

[jay]

I can't help but be reminded of a Muslim woman arguing that Islam is inherently feminist.

Its not that I dislike Anita I just hated how every automatically jumped to her side without any thought to the real subject matter. Its as if they were just clamoring for any cause to support.

Anita's video isn't that great. The points she is trying to make are points a lot of people have been very aware of for decades.

 

[Lowlander2]

It's good that this video is earnest, though. Her motives are pure rather than self-justifying. She didn't make this video solely to butt heads with Sarkeesian or rile people up, unlike a lot of other responses out there.

Spoiler

A LOT

 

[erpg]

The video could've ended early on with an explanation of self-serving biases (which was enough to demolish Anita's perspective - she has an established stance, and a 160,000$ cage confining her opinion), but I'm glad she went on to provide a different view of the characters.

 

[jay]

The video could've ended early on with an explanation of self-serving biases (which was enough to demolish Anita's perspective), but I'm glad she went on to provide a different view of the characters.

Please explain what this means. I have felt games are sexist for a long time, now, and want to know if I also clearly have a bias or am self-serving.

 

[erpg]

Please explain what this means. I have felt games are sexist for a long time, now, and want to know if I also clearly have a bias or am self-serving.

That. Going into a research project with that kind of bias, which leads you to positively appraise things that support you, and diminish the rest.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

I get the point that she's trying to make, and I agree with her position that a fair portrayal of women doesn't have to include making them masculine, but I also think she's missing the larger point.

"Princess Peach is your typical ditzy, dainty, and a stereotypical helpless princess, and there's nothing wrong with that."

She tries to explain a "meta" problem away by pointing out a games back story. It doesn't work that way. Everyone in Mushroom Kingdom could respect the shit out of Princess Peach, but if 9 out of the 10 times we see her she's portrayed as a helpless victim who can't do something herself (but Mario certainly can), then it's still a negative portrayal.

I think it's a bit... I dunno. Naive? To assume that real world analysis can be voided because a fictional character "disagrees", or if we'd just "pay attention to this hardly fleshed out and completely secondary and ancillary backstory that we have to fill in parts for ourselves".

 

[TheSpoiler]

I get the point that she's trying to make, and I agree with her position that a fair portrayal of women doesn't have to include making them masculine, but I also think she's missing the larger point.

"Princess Peach is your typical ditzy, dainty, and a stereotypical helpless princess, and there's nothing wrong with that."

She tries to explain a "meta" problem away by pointing out a games back story. It doesn't work that way. Everyone in Mushroom Kingdom could respect the shit out of Princess Peach, but if 9 out of the 10 times we see her she's portrayed as a helpless victim who can't do something herself (but Mario certainly can), then it's still a negative portrayal.

I think it's a bit... I dunno. Naive? To assume that real world analysis can be voided because a fictional character "disagrees", or if we'd just "pay attention to this hardly fleshed out and completely secondary and ancillary backstory that we have to fill in parts for ourselves".

See, but aren't we guiding ourselves to find fault in things that aren't inherently evil? To the person who doesn't want to pay attention to a very simplistic story, sure, Peach may seem kinda useless. But that is the fault of the person, not the character. The MK did go to shit when Peach wasn't there, and that's a part of the series, no matter if you want to ignore that or not.

Also, is it sexist because she isn't doing the rescuing? Why didn't Sunny rescue Raiden? It goes on like that for every game with a female. Why isn't she doing the rescuing?

Sometimes, it is sexist. Sometimes, that's not the vision of the story teller/devleoper. Sometimes, people don't have a malicious intent and the just want to make games a certain way.

I want more females in games, but not shoehorn, boring examples of such that are only done to fill a quota.

 

[BeesEight]

Well, one of my concerns is that Kitetales starts off with an immediate misrepresentation of Anita's argument.

A presentation that may have had the chance of being an informative and unbiased view of the history of the damsel in distress trope and its development, quickly becomes a one-sided argument against what she believes to be a negative formula that should completely be retired from use.

This isn't really the concern at all and kind of misses the argument of Princess Peach and Zelda. The issue with the trope is that the women are always kidnapped. A kidnapping here and there in the plotline would be fine but it's the consistent history of these characters needing to be snatched in order to propel the storyline forward that really disenfranchises them.

Anita pointed out that in all the mainline Mario games, the only game Peach doesn't get kidnapped in is the one game that was a port of Doki Doki Panic and not originally a Mario Bros installment.

Kitetales uses an image of Chrono Trigger while saying this which I think helps illustrate the fine line. In Chrono Trigger, Crono has to rescue Marle but in doing so she is saved and joins and assists Crono on his journey to stop Lavos even coming to Chrono's aid to save him later on in the game.

There's a reason that Marle doesn't show up in Anita's video because, while initially fulfilling the designs of the Damsel in Distress trope, the trope doesn't serve to create a powerless character since Marle is given the opportunity to contribute in a more meaningful manner than being the character to kiss the saviour at the end.

More modern Zeldas are starting to approach this as well, but Anita made that observation in her own video.

I do think one major problem with Anita's argument is that we have... what, one tenth of it? It leaves some rather problematic holes since she puts off material to talk about later but we haven't seen any of that material yet. Is the Damsel in Distress trope what's really ruining portrayal of women in gaming and the underlying root for a lot of the misogyny? Well, no. It's just one example that's just been trotted along from an older time. In fact, it's a trope that has been dying in the modern game due to it's shallow writing and simple characterization.

Edit: And Kitetales just used the "video games are a business" argument. Sigh.

 

[Htown]

Her again?

She's the girl that gets trotted out whenever anybody has a problem with Sarkeesian for some reason, but I've yet to see anything that fails to miss the point.

 

[jay]

That. Going into a research project with that kind of bias, which leads you to positively appraise things that support you, and diminish the rest.

How would you ever do research on racism or sexism if you didn't already suspect it existed? And the woman making these counter videos to Anita, do you think she generally doesn't feel games are sexist, or do you think she has no idea and every time she makes a video she starts from a blank slate?

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

I haven't watched Anita's video so I can't really say too much about that, but I didn't find this response particularly strong either.

Her peach part is definetly weak, since to the player, rescuing Peach all he/she sees is Peach giving some reaward to Mario. Yeah (innocent "rewards", of cousrse like kisses in the nose lol), but that's what all they show. They don't show a safe kingdom and his people peace being restored by Peach leadership. That's something that the player must reach trought his knowledge of the series and it's background.

Zelda case is much better, because actually the character is shown as a key part to save the world. Because Zelda is a key part on Zelda games in which, without her the player wouldn't be able to advance or finish the game. She's not just a trophy, we need her and her power to fullfill our duty. She's wisdom and Link is courage, one is not more important that the other, both are needed to restore the world in Zelda games lore.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

See, but aren't we guiding ourselves to find fault in things that aren't inherently evil? To the person who doesn't want to pay attention to a very simplistic story, sure, Peach may seem kinda useless. But that is the fault of the person, not the character. The MK did go to shit when Peach wasn't there, and that's a part of the series, no matter if you want to ignore that or not.

Also, is it sexist because she isn't doing the rescuing? Why didn't Sunny rescue Raiden? It goes on like that for every game with a female. Why isn't she doing the rescuing?

Sometimes, it is sexist. Sometimes, that's not the vision of the story teller/devleoper. Sometimes, people don't have a malicious intent and the just want to make games a certain way.

I want more females in games, but not shoehorn, boring examples of such that are only done to fill a quota.

My point is you wave away a "meta" problem with fictional "in character/story" situations and depictions of characters. A character can be the strongest, smartest, most well respected character in the "fictional" world, but in reality if the only time we ever see this awesome female character is when she's somehow locked up and powerless, all of the fictional narrative in the world won't help.

And I'd like to restate that "emancipation" isn't simply gender reversal.

I think the Mario Sports/Kart/etc games probably do better for depiction of females than, say, Super Princess Peach would do. It shows the female characters as true equals with the same immediate goal as the male characters with their own relative strengths and weaknesses.



ed


I don't think Zelda is a particularly better situation. She's a typical damsel in distress until Ocarina of Time, but even then, when she's portrayed as taking an active role in saving Hyrule (Sheik) she's portrayed as a man.

 

[SpacePirate Ridley]

Ive got lots of female gamer friends that after watching anita's video thought exactly the same as the girl that made this one. Anita was totally biased, and she will probably be in her future videos if she does like in the first one.

Heck we are even making a game were we have a female protagonist, were a female is a writer and were another is the art director, and we are in total disagreement with anything anita says in his video. And we never made her a female character in the game becuase of all this fad of Anita's feminist stance becoming popular (in fact it was done much before Anita's popularity existed), she was a female main character becuase we wanted it, we thought she could carry her own story and we thought we could create her fun and interesting so thats why she is there, not because some stupid internet war between boys and girls. Im all for more females main characters with positive traits and I hope we can see more in the future of gaming.

Im going to pass them the More than a Damsel in a Dress video to see whats their opinion about it.

 

[Htown]

Also, y'all are still salty about that Kickstarter money?

Really?

 

[Stet]

Her peach part is definetly weak, since to the player, rescuing Peach all he/she sees is Peach giving some reaward to Mario. Yeah (innocent "rewards", of cousrse like kisses in the nose lol), but that's what all they show. They don't show a safe kingdom and his people peace being restored by Peach leadership. That's something that the player must reach trought his knowledge of the series and it's background.

Zelda case is much better, because actually the character is shown as a key part to save the world. Because Zelda is a key part on Zelda games in which, without her the player wouldn't be able to advance or finish the game. She's not just a trophy, we need her and her power to fullfill our duty. She's wisdom and Link is courage, one is not more important that the other, both are needed to restore the world in Zelda games lore.

The problem with Zelda is that "wisdom" is just there to complete the Triforce. In most games she fulfills absolutely no other purpose but to be there so the Triforce can be completed. If the game had a switched perspective, we'd be sitting around doing shit all while Link did the heavy lifting.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

The problem with Zelda is that "wisdom" is just there to complete the Triforce. In most games she fulfills absolutely no other purpose but to be there so the Triforce can be completed. If the game had a switched perspective, we'd be sitting around doing shit all while Link did the heavy lifting.

That's not true on OoT or WW.

 

[erpg]

How would you ever do research on racism or sexism if you didn't already suspect it existed? And the woman making these counter videos to Anita, do you think she generally doesn't feel games are sexist, or do you think she has no idea and every time she makes a video she starts from a blank slate?

Well, yeah, amnesia exists for a reason.

Spoiler

When you're building hypothesis, you build off prior knowledge and research in the field but you try to keep your personal opinion out of the picture to prevent bias (which is why the research leads stays out of testing and leave it to research assistants). But here, we have a person with a very established opinion on the subject, testing, analysing and building her own slanted operational definitions. She's also given $160,000 by people who want more of her very established opinion. It's a farce and a perfect example of what's wrong with knowledge granted by 'authority'. Much in the same way you wouldn't trust Burger King to put out a good video about the ails and benefits of Burger King.

 

[pixlexic]

The problem with Zelda is that "wisdom" is just there to complete the Triforce. In most games she fulfills absolutely no other purpose but to be there so the Triforce can be completed. If the game had a switched perspective, we'd be sitting around doing shit all while Link did the heavy lifting.

You sure about that? I don't think that has been the case since lttp.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

The problem with Zelda is that "wisdom" is just there to complete the Triforce. In most games she fulfills absolutely no other purpose but to be there so the Triforce can be completed. If the game had a switched perspective, we'd be sitting around doing shit all while Link did the heavy lifting.

That and "female/motherly wisdom" is a stereotype in itself.

 

[Stet]

That's not true on OoT or WW.

You sure about that? I don't think that has been the case since lttp.

In OoT she shows up to teach you crap about yourself and then disappears to do...????????

Having a character shoot arrows in the final battle doesn't make them an integral part of the story.

 

[pixlexic]

That and "female/motherly wisdom" is a stereotype in itself.

no eye roll emoticon is big enough for this statement.

 

[SpacePirate Ridley]

Also, y'all are still salty about that Kickstarter money?

Really?

Im pretty sure some people have a different opinion than her and thats why they dont like her "documentary" but hey! lets just say that people with different opinions are just salty because se won 160000 dollars in kickstater.

You know the irony of all this, some of the defending comments (not all, they are people with intelligent discussion) sound like internet white knighting, something that she depises, if we go by her videos.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

That and "female/motherly wisdom" is a stereotype in itself.

Yeah, it would be much better is Zelda acted like and dressed like a man.

 

[pixlexic]

In OoT she shows up to teach you crap about yourself and then disappears to do...????????

Having a character shoot arrows in the final battle doesn't make them an integral part of the story.

Sheik

again .. people saying things with little to no research.

 

[Stet]

Sheik

Yes, that's who I'm talking about when I say she shows up to teach you stuff and then completely disappears. What's she doing in the interval? Does anyone care? Does it really matter?

 

[Zefiro]

How about we stop giving attentions to all those god blessed girls?
The only reason this whole femminism business is plaguing the video game media right now is because people cannot stop talking about it.

You all should have learned the lesson something like 10 years ago playing your fist mmo, dont give attentions to girls acting out on the internet.

 

[BeesEight]

Im pretty sure some people have a different opinion than her and thats why they dont like her "documentary" but hey! lets just say that people with different opinions are just salty because se won 160000 dollars in kickstater.

You know the irony of all this, some of the defending comments (not all, they are people with intelligent discussion) sound like internet white knighting, something that she depises, if we go by her videos.

It can't really be surprising that there are idiots on both sides of the fence.

As for the kickstarter comment, I do have to wonder why people keep bringing it up. It serves no function in either supporting or refuting Anita's arguments and it really does sound like people resent her for it for some reason.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Yeah, it would be much better is Zelda acted like and dressed like a man.

Nintendo did make her dress like a man in one of the few games where she wasn't your typical "Princess in distress".

 

[pixlexic]

Yes, that's who I'm talking about when I say she shows up to teach you stuff and then completely disappears. What's she doing in the interval? Does anyone care? Does it really matter?

so it has to be a playable character.. not character who appears through out the game?

moving goal post is moving.

 

[Riposte]

In OoT she shows up to teach you crap about yourself and then disappears to do...????????

Having a character shoot arrows in the final battle doesn't make them an integral part of the story.

Most characters in OoT are not integral to the story. What you described as Zelda doing in this post applies to Ganon, the sages, and maybe a few other characters here and there. They have their big story moment, then disappear until they are relevant again. Other than that, most NPCs stay in one place until they can be of some use to the player or the plot. Playing as them would be like what you previously described. The player (i.e. Link) is the only person with real agency. This element of player agency over what NPCs can do seems like a big oversight in this conversation (though no so much when the topic is "Why so few female MCs?").

 

[Htown]

Im pretty sure some people have a different opinion than her and thats why they dont like her "documentary" but hey! lets just say that people with different opinions are just salty because se won 160000 dollars in kickstater.

It comes up in every Sarkeesian thread, and in the OP of this one.

So yes, people are still mad about the kickstarter money for some reason.

You know the irony of all this, some of the defending comments (not all, they are people with intelligent discussion) sound like internet white knighting, something that she depises, if we go by her videos.

"white knighting"?

seriously?

 

[jay]

Well, yeah, amnesia exists for a reason.

Spoiler

When you're building hypothesis, you build off prior knowledge and research in the field but you try to keep your personal opinion out of the picture to prevent bias (which is why the research leads stays out of testing and leave it to research assistants). But here, we have a person with a very established opinion on the subject, testing, analysing and building her own slanted operational definitions. She's also given $160,000 by people who want more of her very established opinion. It's a farce and a perfect example of what's wrong with knowledge granted by 'authority'. Much in the same way you wouldn't trust Burger King to put out a good video about the ails and benefits of Burger King.

So the problem is that her YouTube videos aren't valid research. Was your first hint that this was someone making people aware of something she sees as a problem and not scientific research the fact that she is making YouTube videos?

Also, the Burger King analogy is questionable. Anita doesn't sell feminist video games. Would you be so quick to compare a black person who talks or writes about racism to Burger King promoting itself?

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

In OoT she shows up to teach you crap about yourself and then disappears to do...????????

Having a character shoot arrows in the final battle doesn't make them an integral part of the story.

In OoT she's is key to advance in the game same as in WW (not only in the last battle she appears, she's one more NPC in a good chunk of the game). That's my point, the fact she is not on screen all the time dosn't her less valuable to the player and just a simply trophy.

In OoT she had to train and be strong enough to evade Ganon and so she could help you for seven years. How is that a helpless female?.

Nintendo did make her dress like a man in one of the few games where she wasn't your typical "Princess in distress".

It's a disguise.

 

[Stet]

so it has to be a playable character.. not character who appears through out the game?

moving goal post is moving.

I didn't say anything about her being playable. I said that she shows up to teach you shit and then disappears and affects the story in absolutely no other way.

Most characters in OoT are not integral to the story. What you described as Zelda doing in this post applies to Ganon, the sages, and maybe a few other characters here and there. They have their big story moment, then disappear until they are relevant again. Other than that, most NPCs stay in one place until they can be of some use to the player or the plot. Playing as them would be like what you previously described. The player (i.e. Link) is the only person with real agency. This element of player agency over what NPCs can do seems like a big oversight in this conversation (though no so much when the topic is "Why so few female MCs?").

Ganon takes over Hyrule in the interval. He turns the world into a horrible place. Everything that changed changed because of Ganon. The point is that there are three parts to the Triforce and two of them are actively affecting the world. The one that isn't is held by a woman. That doesn't make her less of a damsel, it just makes her less of a character.

 

[Jim Sterling]

Wish I understood why it matters so much that Sarkeesian be "proven wrong." Her video's been out for a while, and the videogame industry has not burned to the ground.

People build her up like she's Sauron or something, but she's just a person with a video series. There are countless numbers of those. She's fine, and not a threat, and doesn't need to be so desperately torn down.

 

[erpg]

So the problem is that her YouTube videos aren't valid research. Was your first hint that this was someone making people aware of something she sees as a problem and not scientific research the fact that she is making YouTube videos?

Also, the Burger King analogy is questionable. Anita doesn't sell feminist video games. Would you be so quick to compare a black person who talks or writes about racism to Burger King promoting itself?

1: Look up knowledge by authority, mix that up with the explanation of bias I mentioned earlier. Come to your own conclusion as to why I think it's wrong.
2: 160,000. There's money involved, funded by parties interested in a specific conclusion. Much like Burger King and its backers would be interested in a specific conclusion.

You can look up my post history and see where I stand on sexism in various forms. I simply don't think Sarkeesian is the right person to provide the view I would want (as unbiased as possible). I think biases reduce the level of conversation to the point where everyone has to talk over each other with really flimsy points that contrast as much as possible against the other view.

 

[Zomba13]

How about we stop giving attentions to all those god blessed girls?
The only reason this whole femminism business is plaguing the video game media right now is because people cannot stop talking about it.

You all should have learned the lesson something like 10 years ago playing your fist mmo, dont give attentions to girls acting out on the internet.

Wow.