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Operation KKK Is Beginning To Unmask Hate Group Members

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So... they're "unhooding" Paul Fraim, a Democrat, Catholic, who is the chair of a "Mayors Against Guns" constituency..?

Yeah, not sure if I trust the source here... Seems like a very unlikely person to be attracted to the KKK, given that the Klan is anti-Catholic, I'm assuming pro-Gun, and probably has a good number of problems with the Democratic party these days.

As much as I hate the KKK, the FBI and Federal Government has done a pretty good job making the KKK basically irrelevant over the last 50 years, reducing the numbers from a height of 6million earlier in the 20th century, to between 5000-8000 today.

I can't imagine any noteworthy person joining the KKK for any reason these days. I could have understood it in the 1950s or 60s, when the org had a lot more influence, but today...
 
Awful false equivalence. BlackLivesMatter does not have a history of destroying the lives of innocent people through recklessness. These groups do. There is a reason why vigilante justice is not encouraged anywhere outside of comic books. They have no training, no ethical code, no oversight, and no accountability.

What the hell are the courts going to do? The internet never forgets, its out there and will remain out there.

So falsely accused people are just supposed to use the legal system to correct the situation? I assume you'll cover the cost of this then? Lol. Legal work isn't free and no matter how much money you spend, your reputation is tarnished.
Look, let's just separate the idea from this (horrid) execution.

Idea: Expose KKK members to the public so that the public is made aware of their morally objectionable activity. Places their practice on the same moral level as child sex offenders for example, and brings a new level of awareness and shame for an activity that deserves having others be aware of it (for the sake of protecting their families and loved ones) and shamed.

Execution: Seems like facets of the group are using the cause as a cover to smear the same types of people the KKK generally hates on anyhow. Might be possible the group is an arm of the KKK.

So it's very unfortunate that the execution of the idea seems to turn out to be a farce, and only acting as a cover for more objectionable activity, but the idea itself is solid (in its purer sense) and should be legalized. Members of hate groups are no different than child molesters or terrorists, and the latter two are made publicly known to others so they may be aware of who to look out for, why not with hate group members like the KKK?

And to the claims that the KKK are irrelevant, well yes, they are in the sense that they're not the same KKK that was around in the 1930s. But their presence, even as a dying parasite, still influences mindshare on the public, and one would have to be blind to deny that certain ideals held by the KKK did not eventually find themselves at the root of particular policies that were birthed in the U.S legislature that affected the same groups the KKK actively attacked back in the day. The roots of institutional racism can be traced back to hate groups like the KKK, and the influence they had on earlier politicians and, therefore, legislature. Which in turn had effects on successive legislature, diluted strands of which still exist today even if the root intention is vastly different or completely opposite to what the originating legislature intended.

So one way to deal with the problem of institutional racism is to acknowledge its roots and attack them, no matter how much of a zombie state certain parts may be right now. The gov't isn't going to literally arrest and dismantle the KKK and ban it from free speech overnight, but a first step in dealing with the problems the organization has given birth to, is to make people aware of the people who are actively keeping this zombie organization alive, b/c its mere existence makes institutional racism that much more effective. It's mere existence makes other stronger hate groups (like neo-Nazis) that much more relevant and capable.

How this is such an exotic concept is beyond me, as it shouldn't be. As I said, the idea is sound and necessary, but the execution/implementation needs to be genuine and effective. This instance is neither of those, and therefore is flawed. But it shouldn't outright disqualify the idea from being considered in the future if people with more noble and honest intentions (and more effective ways of identifying who is or who isn't a member) were wanting to give it a try.
 
This all sounds like a terrible idea, even if some might be doing it with good intentions.

If these things are stories that need to be told, approach a trusted media outlet or journalist with your story, let them vouch for it and chase down the leads, so the public knows it has been checked.

Just throwing lists and whatever on the internet is not a good idea.
 
Who fucking cares about the Klu Klux Klan anymore? There's not even one klan, it's a bunch of different tribute acts using the same name that do fuck all. What's left is riddled with FBI informants.

While I understand the desire to bring organized hate groups to justice, I wonder how relevant the KKK is in terms of modern American racism. Combatting systemic racism in America should be the bigger picture.
 
A mayor in Tennessee has been named on this list. She's a Latina who is also a Democrat. Probably unlikely. I don't think the KKK allows Latinos?

You are talking about Madeline Rogero of Knoxville, TN. She worked with César Chávez early in her career, and she is pretty liberal.

Also Jim Gray who is openly gay is on that list.

In closing that leak is complete bullshit, and it looks like someone is trying to damage a few liberals before the actual list is released.
 
I'm fine with this in theory, but you just know that they at some point or the other will get wrong or bad info, or just confuse people with the same names. By the time the innocent person finds out, their name and face is already everywhere linking them to something as terrible as KKK.

We've all seen how bad the internet is with this kind of thing, remember the great GAF thread identifying the bombers at the Boston marathon? and if you thought that was bad, you should have seen the threads on reddit and 4chan.
 

Timeaisis

Member
Good old guilty till proven innocent. We have no way of corroborating these claims.

Have they revealed how they went about acquiring their information?
 
Hmm. I'd think minorities would be on the side of due process.

Isn't that one of the goals of blacklivesmatter?
Who says they aren't?

At the same time, when it comes to matters usually in tangent to minorities (and let's be specific here, black minorities, since you mentioned BLM), the legal system is...tepid. It plods along slowly. There have actually been instances of effective "vigilante" (if you want to call it that) justice within black neighborhoods during the Civil Rights era and somewhat after for example. Instances where black citizens had to police themselves, and provide their own food, recreation and education programs.

In this sense I'm certain many outside of those communities considered those acts of vigilantism b/c they were not officially backed the the state or federal government, and operated without their approval. But in such cases, it's questionable if state or federal resources would have ever been properly allocated to those neighborhoods if they just sat on their hands hoping for attention to be given their way, following the proper legal channels and what have you.

And it's not like what you and others are purporting here as vigilantism, and the standard legal process are mutually exclusive. If need be, an individual could be subjected to the former and reprimand through the latter. If someone in the future (with HONEST intentions) accidentally labeled you as X or Y, and were unwilling or unable to settle the dispute reasonably outside of court, then have evidence and take them to legal court. The option is there.

What you are proposing is something that would only be absolutely true in the stricter sense if the system of due process was not biased against the group you claim would be in favor of such. Unfortunately, it is.

While I understand the desire to bring organized hate groups to justice, I wonder how relevant the KKK is in terms of modern American racism. Combatting systemic racism in America should be the bigger picture.

They are issues that have to be dealt with concurrently, because systemic racism does not exist in a vacuum, nor has it ever. Its roots are traceable back to the history of hate groups such as the KKK, so no matter how much of a dying state those groups are in, they are still there. Their still being around helps systemic racism, because they are the root.

In other words systemic racism can never be completely dealt with as long as you continue to have an opinion of indifference or state of inaction towards hardcore hate groups like the Klan.
 

Enzom21

Member
I am okay with this as long as there is irrefutable proof, especially if those people are elected officials or law enforcement. Fuck the Klan and anyone who supports it.
 
Good old guilty till proven innocent. We have no way of corroborating these claims.

Have they revealed how they went about acquiring their information?

They are claiming the current leak is incorrect and misinformation. Unless you believe a gay man and Latino woman who marched Chávez are in the KKK? Those are the facts.
 

notworksafe

Member
Well since they've already managed to destroy Scientology and disband all the Mexican drug cartels, I have high hopes for this newest endeavor from Anonymous
 
Look, let's just separate the idea from this (horrid) execution.

Idea: Expose KKK members to the public so that the public is made aware of their morally objectionable activity. Places their practice on the same moral level as child sex offenders for example, and brings a new level of awareness and shame for an activity that deserves having others be aware of it (for the sake of protecting their families and loved ones) and shamed.

Execution: Seems like facets of the group are using the cause as a cover to smear the same types of people the KKK generally hates on anyhow. Might be possible the group is an arm of the KKK.

So it's very unfortunate that the execution of the idea seems to turn out to be a farce, and only acting as a cover for more objectionable activity, but the idea itself is solid (in its purer sense) and should be legalized. Members of hate groups are no different than child molesters or terrorists, and the latter two are made publicly known to others so they may be aware of who to look out for, why not with hate group members like the KKK?

And to the claims that the KKK are irrelevant, well yes, they are in the sense that they're not the same KKK that was around in the 1930s. But their presence, even as a dying parasite, still influences mindshare on the public, and one would have to be blind to deny that certain ideals held by the KKK did not eventually find themselves at the root of particular policies that were birthed in the U.S legislature that affected the same groups the KKK actively attacked back in the day. The roots of institutional racism can be traced back to hate groups like the KKK, and the influence they had on earlier politicians and, therefore, legislature. Which in turn had effects on successive legislature, diluted strands of which still exist today even if the root intention is vastly different or completely opposite to what the originating legislature intended.

So one way to deal with the problem of institutional racism is to acknowledge its roots and attack them, no matter how much of a zombie state certain parts may be right now. The gov't isn't going to literally arrest and dismantle the KKK and ban it from free speech overnight, but a first step in dealing with the problems the organization has given birth to, is to make people aware of the people who are actively keeping this zombie organization alive, b/c its mere existence makes institutional racism that much more effective. It's mere existence makes other stronger hate groups (like neo-Nazis) that much more relevant and capable.

How this is such an exotic concept is beyond me, as it shouldn't be. As I said, the idea is sound and necessary, but the execution/implementation needs to be genuine and effective. This instance is neither of those, and therefore is flawed. But it shouldn't outright disqualify the idea from being considered in the future if people with more noble and honest intentions (and more effective ways of identifying who is or who isn't a member) were wanting to give it a try.

You got to most peoples' objection in your last paragraph. I think most people in this thread would agree that exposing members of hate groups is worthwhile, but with actual third-party verification and fact checking. Leaving it up to internet randos isn't the way to go about it.

They are issues that have to be dealt with concurrently, because systemic racism does not exist in a vacuum, nor has it ever. Its roots are traceable back to the history of hate groups such as the KKK, so no matter how much of a dying state those groups are in, they are still there. Their still being around helps systemic racism, because they are the root.

In other words systemic racism can never be completely dealt with as long as you continue to have an opinion of indifference or state of inaction towards hardcore hate groups like the Klan.

I see what you mean. And organized hate groups do help support subtler systemic racism by acting as a lightning rod. They provide a reference point; "I'm not a racist! Those are the neo-nazis and people in white hoods"
 
Well since they've already managed to destroy Scientology and disband all the Mexican drug cartels, I have high hopes for this newest endeavor from Anonymous

image.php


I pictured your avatar talking and making that face...perfection lol
 

Timeaisis

Member
They are claiming the current leak is incorrect and misinformation. Unless you believe a gay man and Latino woman who marched Chávez are in the KKK? Those are the facts.

So let me get this straight...

We're cool giving them this first pass list as a "freebie" and from here on out any information they reveal we're cool believing as accurate? You see the problem with this whole endeavor? KKK is a trash organization, but doxxing is not the way.
 
Well since they've already managed to destroy Scientology and disband all the Mexican drug cartels, I have high hopes for this newest endeavor from Anonymous

Their stupid thing against the cartels really was laughable. These are multi-billion dollar organizations that own and operate near professional level armies. Those are the ones that do the vast majority of the damage, and they are untouchable. The fuck are a bunch of 20 somethings sitting in front of a laptop going to do to ever even dent that?
 
plan is off to a predictable start. yet people still think this is a cool path to go down.

Some think this fake 'leak' was done by people on the Right to damage some liberals, and to put the whole list in doubt when it is released. If you say they are wrong about one person how can you say they are right about anyone on the list. Either way it was bad idea from the start.
 

Timeaisis

Member
Some think this fake 'leak' was done by people on the Right to damage some liberals, and to put the whole list in doubt when it is released. If you say they are wrong about one person how can you say they are right about anyone on the list. Either way it was bad idea from the start.

Yup, and we have no idea which list is The Real List™. I mean, it doesn't even matter at this point. Some people are going to believe everything they read because obviously no one would lie and make stuff up about this kind of thing.
 

Joni

Member
And thankfully in America we already have a system that's (technically) around to protect the legal rights of the individual (including, among other things, slander and defamation of character); it's called the court of law.
Thankfully we also have something to take down both hate groups and cyber criminals; it is that same court of law. And that one doesn't involve innocents defending themselves.
 
Some think this fake 'leak' was done by people on the Right to damage some liberals, and to put the whole list in doubt when it is released. If you say they are wrong about one person how can you say they are right about anyone on the list. Either way it was bad idea from the start.

The fact that something like that is possible or being proposed as possible is precisely why doxxing is wrong and should never be taken seriously.
 
Yeah I find it very hard to take any of this seriously now. A gay man is in the KKK? Really? Please.
Could easily be a self-hating gay man. I mean there were numerous Republican politicians who turned out to be gay yet had legislative/executive history of anti-LGBT politics.
 

mre

Golden Domers are chickenshit!!
And thankfully in America we already have a system that's (technically) around to protect the legal rights of the individual (including, among other things, slander and defamation of character); it's called the court of law.
Code:
John Q. Smith,     )
                   )
     Plaintiff,    )
                   )
v.                 )
                   )
John Doe 1-100     )
and Jane Doe 1-    )
100,               )
                   )
     Defendants.   )
Yeah, that's a peach of a case right there. Very easy to protect yourself against a horde of anonymous internet posters. Since it's downright impossible to know who the anonymous people are who have defamed you prior to filing your lawsuit, you run into several issues. (1) They may be "judgment proof," meaning they may have no assets and no jobs. So it would be extremely risky for a lawyer to take this case on a contingency fee basis, because there is a high probability that they wouldn't even be able to get their costs back out of the case, not to mention earning a fee for their time. (2) This means that in order to defend yourself against the defamation, you would have to pony up both the costs and an hourly fee just to get an attorney to take your case. (3) Since your attorney is going to have to spend a lot of time tracking down however many anonymous people were involved in defaming you, you will be spending several thousand dollars of your own money just to defend yourself against a group of people whom you may not actually be able to punish financially (see 1).

"But what about criminal defamation laws?" you may ask. Good question. Not every state has one (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/criminal-libel-statutes-state-by-state), and those states that do punish it about as severely as they do making false statements concerning your midwifery credentials (see Colorado). So good luck getting your local LEO out of bed to go investigate a group of anonymous people who falsely outed you as a klan member.
 
Their stupid thing against the cartels really was laughable. These are multi-billion dollar organizations that own and operate near professional level armies. Those are the ones that do the vast majority of the damage, and they are untouchable. The fuck are a bunch of 20 somethings sitting in front of a laptop going to do to ever even dent that?
It was hilarious how quick those little shits ran like pussies once the cartels stirred. Like a child using a stick to poke a sleeping dog.
 

Doc Holliday

SPOILER: Columbus finds America
http://usuncut.com/politics/anonymous-unhoods-kkk-prominent-politicians/


In a new post on document-dumping site pastebin, Anonymous names US Senators Thom Tillis (R-N.C.), John Cornyn (R-Tx.), Dan Coats (R-In.) and Johnny Isakson (R-Ga.) as members of the KKK. Anonymous also outed several mayors of major US cities, including Madeline Rogero of Knoxville, Tennessee; Jim Gray of Lexington, Kentucky; Paul D. Fraim of Norfolk, Virginia; Kent Guinn of Ocala, Florida; and Tom Henry of Fort Wayne, Indiana.
 
Code:
John Q. Smith,     )
                   )
     Plaintiff,    )
                   )
v.                 )
                   )
John Doe 1-100     )
and Jane Doe 1-    )
100,               )
                   )
     Defendants.   )
Yeah, that's a peach of a case right there. Very easy to protect yourself against a horde of anonymous internet posters. Since it's downright impossible to know who the anonymous people are who have defamed you prior to filing your lawsuit, you run into several issues. (1) They may be "judgment proof," meaning they may have no assets and no jobs. So it would be extremely risky for a lawyer to take this case on a contingency fee basis, because there is a high probability that they wouldn't even be able to get their costs back out of the case, not to mention earning a fee for their time. (2) This means that in order to defend yourself against the defamation, you would have to pony up both the costs and an hourly fee just to get an attorney to take your case. (3) Since your attorney is going to have to spend a lot of time tracking down however many anonymous people were involved in defaming you, you will be spending several thousand dollars of your own money just to defend yourself against a group of people whom you may not actually be able to punish financially (see 1).

"But what about criminal defamation laws?" you may ask. Good question. Not every state has one (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/criminal-libel-statutes-state-by-state), and those states that do punish it about as severely as they do making false statements concerning your midwifery credentials (see Colorado). So good luck getting your local LEO out of bed to go investigate a group of anonymous people who falsely outed you as a klan member.
Admittedly the process is more complicated than I made it out to be, but then ask yourself why does it have to be this way? America's legal system is wrapped in a lot of bureaucratic "green" tape, if you see what I mean, and acts as a deterrent to even getting things done that should probably get done.

If there were other set-ups and methods in place to facilitate that kind of path of action sensibly, things would be much better off imo.

Thankfully we also have something to take down both hate groups and cyber criminals; it is that same court of law. And that one doesn't involve innocents defending themselves.
In a better legal system it wouldn't be the innocent defending themselves; it'd be skilled lawyers and attorneys doing such, but without the costs being incurred back on the citizen unless it turned out they were lying about their defamation by not actually being mistakenly listed as a member of a hate group, of course.

You got to most peoples' objection in your last paragraph. I think most people in this thread would agree that exposing members of hate groups is worthwhile, but with actual third-party verification and fact checking. Leaving it up to internet randos isn't the way to go about it.



I see what you mean. And organized hate groups do help support subtler systemic racism by acting as a lightning rod. They provide a reference point; "I'm not a racist! Those are the neo-nazis and people in white hoods"
Yep, and that is something others should recognize. It doesn't even have to be direct as your example puts it; oft-times the effects are residual.

My mayor's in the KKK? Wat?
 
You guys are missing the point.

...

Your own worries also assume that this kind of operation would have the finess of a witch hunt; it's going on 2016 and I'm sure these people would have access to accurate database records and files, enough so to discern who would be worth legit identifying as a member and who wouldn't be.

And thankfully in America we already have a system that's (technically) around to protect the legal rights of the individual (including, among other things, slander and defamation of character); it's called the court of law.


Look, let's just separate the idea from this (horrid) execution.

Dude what are you talking about? Within the space of two hours you've gone from saying there's no need to worry about innocent people getting mixed up in this because you're "sure" they have access to accurate information to pardoning the fuck ups because it was sort of a good idea on paper.
 

213372bu

Banned
Great, this gonna get traction with innocents in the initial list.

Can't see how there is gonna be a problem when they sort out to fill the rest of the 1000.

Fuck man, things like this are why some politicians are open to ending anonymity on the internet.

Because of basement dwellers with time on their hands.

Edit: And that list isn't even vetted, amazing.
 
Dude what are you talking about? Within the space of two hour's you've gone from saying there's no need to worry about innocent people getting mixed up in this because you're "sure" they have access to accurate information to pardoning the fuck ups because it was sort of a good idea on paper.
You can learn a lot in two hours. What I learned forced me to re-evaluate the stance and that was the best way to do so.

The idea, in honest, well-meaning capable hands, is good.

The execution, in the case of this group, is horrible and a smear.

They can be separated and evaluated separately.
 
It was hilarious how quick those little shits ran like pussies once the cartels stirred. Like a child using a stick to poke a sleeping dog.

Shit like that is why I'll never take them seriously. They aren't "crusaders for justice and righteousness" they're a bunch of kids playing at being heroes by poking easy targets to get notoriety and feel important.
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
interested to see who gets implicated, but Anonymous isn't "reputable" or accountable like a journalist might be, so i'm afraid they may either get things wrong, or the accusations will roll off and nothing happens
 
Dude what are you talking about? Within the space of two hours you've gone from saying there's no need to worry about innocent people getting mixed up in this because you're "sure" they have access to accurate information to pardoning the fuck ups because it was sort of a good idea on paper.

and this is why long winded tirades of how things should work in hypothetical terms bring very little to conversations like this.
 
How about that...another thread on GAF regarding Internet vigilantism in which a significant amount of posters gleefully overlook just how dangerous, unreliable, and horrific Internet vigilante mobs inevitably become.

The "I have no problem with this posts." might as well read "I've put zero thought into this." It's like people have zero historical knowledge of how this kind of thing inevitably plays out: it's not even an Internet phenomenon so much as a human one. The Red Scare wasn't that long ago. Crowd-sourcing "justice" doesn't work and it never will. The mob has no accountability, no memory, and no mission beyond its immediate satisfaction.
 

mre

Golden Domers are chickenshit!!
Admittedly the process is more complicated than I made it out to be, but then ask yourself why does it have to be this way? America's legal system is wrapped in a lot of bureaucratic "green" tape, if you see what I mean, and acts as a deterrent to even getting things done that should probably get done.
I don't see what you mean and I don't agree with anything you've said except for the fact that the legal system is much more complicated than it is portrayed to be on shows like Law and Order.

Cases like this, which are against anonymous individuals, are difficult because of what you don't know before you would have to file a lawsuit. You don't know who you're suing, and there's no way to even begin finding out who to sue without being able to issue subpoenas, and you generally can't do that without having actually filed a lawsuit. Even states that do allow you to conduct pre-suit discovery, the court in question must actually have jurisdiction over the individual in question: http://law.justia.com/cases/texas/supreme-court/2014/13-0073.html The person making these defamatory accusations might not even live in the United States. Then what do you do?
If there were other set-ups and methods in place to facilitate that kind of path of action sensibly, things would be much better off imo.
How would you propose to do things differently?
In a better legal system it wouldn't be the innocent defending themselves; it'd be skilled lawyers and attorneys doing such, but without the costs being incurred back on the citizen
This is how it works, unless the defendant turns out to be without the means to pay a judgment against him or her. In which case, who do you suggest foot the bill for the litigation?
 
There are gay republicans, meanwhile republicans want to outlaw gay marriage and think their lifestyle is a sin.

Maybe this gay KKK member simply isn't a single issue voter and hates certain races enough to get on board.

He is a gay liberal democrat. It seems the list won already.

Here is Mayor Madeline Rogero response (she is one of the best liberal mayors in the South).

CS1DE3fUAAAbuVI.jpg
 
How about that...another thread on GAF regarding Internet vigilantism in which a significant amount of posters gleefully overlook just how dangerous, unreliable, and horrific Internet vigilante mobs inevitably become.

The "I have no problem with this posts." might as well read "I've put zero thought into this." It's like people have zero historical knowledge of how this kind of thing inevitably plays out: it's not even an Internet phenomenon so much as a human one. The Red Scare wasn't that long ago. Crowd-sourcing "justice" doesn't work and it never will. The mob has no accountability, no memory, and no mission beyond its immediate satisfaction.

It's honestly scary how many parallels doxxing has with the Red Scare.
 
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