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PA Report - The Xbox One will kill used games, that's good
- Thread starter hardcastlemccormick
- Start date
Dude, u can't tell people how to spend their money. Especially when your argument is pretty dumb. Internet service is much more expensive than a console.
Omegasquash
Member
You make a good point, one that I didn't take into consideration. I agree...people that want new functionality OUGHT to be able to play it offline. I think (assume, really) that Kuchera was making a value judgment. I also think (again, assuming) that he is coming from a place of financial responsibility, but I have fears that it's elitist, given the tone of his response. That's probably not going to go well for him.
None what so ever only those paid and bought by MS or fan boys say different. All you have to do is look at XBL and PSN and see all the games that cost 2x as much as in the store or 10x more than on steam. They did not pass the cost savings of buying online at all to the consumer. Close as they have is the vita but you need an expensive memory card to take advantage making it cost neutral.
My cousin shipped out to Afghanistan armed with 2 ps3s, 2 copies of fifa and 12 controllers.
There was no internet, no tv, but by god at least there was football.
I never said that. I said I THINK that is what will happen due to this business model. I do not think most people care about used games to the degree that some people believe.
They will be forced to revise their used game strategy if it starts costing them sales relative to Sony. This is 100% true.
After all, as you say, the Wii U has no issue playing used games. There are zero restrictions on that system, and it is still tanking. Used games are hardly a deal maker or deal breaker.
LOL, good for them. FIFA sure beats the hell out of Jedi Starfighter!
Glad you're here to decide what people can and can't do with their money.
AcceptableGhost
Member
Did a human being actually write this article?
That's not even...remotely related.
Only if you're one of the people on this board claiming that " we don't have all the information yet. Everyone just needs to calm down and wait."
The writing has been on the walls for months now. MS being ill prepared to answer straight questions about the situation over the last 48 hours is all we need to hear to come to the conclusion that no used games is about to be XBOne's reality.
I have no idea how you interpreted my post to mean that, but ok. If I were telling people what to do with their money, I'd tell them to donate it to shelters or AIDS research instead of spending it on gaming systems.
I was simply explaining why the idea of feeling empathy for people who can't afford to buy into a brand new console generation is an absurd idea.
Sure it is, guy! If restricting used games is as relevant to a console's success as you think, surely the Wii U would be selling gangbusters as it's paradise city over there! Lego City Undercover for $35 used, all day every day! Go get 'em!
The amusing part is their own expo won't be able to have Xbox One lans because it'd require people donating their consoles for use to leave their profiles on the Xbone. They'd also have to include the Kinect and provide an usable network for them to connect to, leaving user profiles exposed to shenanigans. Every Xbone on the table is going to try to pick up voices at once.
At the going rate, the only thing you're going to see LANned at future PAXes for new stuff is PS4s.
At the going rate, the only thing you're going to see LANned at future PAXes for new stuff is PS4s.
Punkster_NY
Member
Zabant
Member
Ignoring your comments about games being toys (seriously? why are you even on an enthusiast board like this if that's your stance)
I don't believe you know a damn thing what it's like to only have a tiny amount of disposable income to spend on entertainment, this isn't just about downtrodden folk either, what about kids who get an allowance?
I also don't think you feel empathy at all, you sound like someone who just knows the textbook definition of it.
It's about as stupid as telling someone, "Why do you have a TV if you cant afford cable?"
zomgbbqftw
Banned
What happened to Ben?!? He used to be one of the good guys back at Ars. This is a poor showing from him, not impressed tbh.
So lets get down to it.
Myth 1 - Ending used games will lead to fewer lay offs.
Fact - Not true, used gaming provides the market with enormous liquidity and allows hardcore gamers to buy games priced at $60 on day one when the publisher share is highest. Removing this liquidity will just lead to less new game purchases and more failures in the AAA sector. That will lead to more lay offs and more studio closures.
Myth 2 - Killing used gaming will lead to lower prices.
Fact - Monopolies never lead to lower pricing. Continually bringing up Steam as an example is stupid because Steam does not exist in a vacuum, Valve still compete with retail releases, console releases and other digital download services. Games bought via XBL would exist in a vacuum since Microsoft are the only seller of licences and there will be no competition without used games. One of the few downwards pressures on games prices will disappear and the ASP of games will start to rise on that platform. That is bad for consumers.
Myth 3 - Ending used gaming and having an online check will lead to lower piracy
Fact - This makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever, not having a cheaper option will only motivate hackers and pirates to break open the system. Music piracy was so rife in the 90's and 00's because album prices were unreasonable. When the music studios caught on and lowered the cost of buying music piracy decreased and revenues started rising again. Removing a low cost option for gaming is going to have the reverse effect, it will only drive more people to lower cost pirate copies should the system be cracked open.
This article was not of a good standard. I really though Ben was better than this. Clearly I was mistaken.
So lets get down to it.
Myth 1 - Ending used games will lead to fewer lay offs.
Fact - Not true, used gaming provides the market with enormous liquidity and allows hardcore gamers to buy games priced at $60 on day one when the publisher share is highest. Removing this liquidity will just lead to less new game purchases and more failures in the AAA sector. That will lead to more lay offs and more studio closures.
Myth 2 - Killing used gaming will lead to lower prices.
Fact - Monopolies never lead to lower pricing. Continually bringing up Steam as an example is stupid because Steam does not exist in a vacuum, Valve still compete with retail releases, console releases and other digital download services. Games bought via XBL would exist in a vacuum since Microsoft are the only seller of licences and there will be no competition without used games. One of the few downwards pressures on games prices will disappear and the ASP of games will start to rise on that platform. That is bad for consumers.
Myth 3 - Ending used gaming and having an online check will lead to lower piracy
Fact - This makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever, not having a cheaper option will only motivate hackers and pirates to break open the system. Music piracy was so rife in the 90's and 00's because album prices were unreasonable. When the music studios caught on and lowered the cost of buying music piracy decreased and revenues started rising again. Removing a low cost option for gaming is going to have the reverse effect, it will only drive more people to lower cost pirate copies should the system be cracked open.
This article was not of a good standard. I really though Ben was better than this. Clearly I was mistaken.
TangoAlphaLima
Member
Uhhhh, no. Every console currently on the market can play used games. The Wii U has no upper hand in that respect. Acting like it does, or that it doesn't have other failings, is ludicrous.
YES.
Microsoft have said that you will still be able to trade in games.
So it's not all bad if you trade games to buy new ones.
Presumably they are going to create some kind of reactivation token that needs to be purchased (digitally or in store ) to reactivate it, that will be the nominal fee that publishers/developers get.
So it's not all bad if you trade games to buy new ones.
Presumably they are going to create some kind of reactivation token that needs to be purchased (digitally or in store ) to reactivate it, that will be the nominal fee that publishers/developers get.
DC1
Member
Nor is it worth $0.00 once I complete/use/enjoy it.
Your point is a very good one.
Peter Bazooka
Banned
Naivety.
What's funny about this whole conversation is that I can, quite reasonably, wait 3-6 months after a game launches and buy the thing, NEW, for at least half the price. Sometimes more if it sells particularly bad.
There are very very very few games (mainly Nintendo franchises) that keep their price high for more than 3 months.
So yeah. Whatever. Hooray used games dying. It doesn't matter when I can "lag" three months behind and still get the deals for the games.
There are very very very few games (mainly Nintendo franchises) that keep their price high for more than 3 months.
So yeah. Whatever. Hooray used games dying. It doesn't matter when I can "lag" three months behind and still get the deals for the games.
Games are toys BY DEFINITION. Anything bought for recreation is a toy, really. Snowmobiles can be toys.
Without going into detail, I do. That's why I went to school, got a usable degree, and now make enough money to have enough to spend on toys.
They buy what they can afford. I have two kids of my own, and I'm not going to just buy them expensive shit just because they want it - that would breed entitlement. It would go very quickly from "Daddy bought me this Xbox", to ten years later when they call me crying because their TV broke and they can't afford a new one due to not working hard enough to make money. Too fucking bad. Come over and I'll teach you how to set up a budget.
Anyone who thinks empathy has anything to do with toys or material goods doesn't live in the real world. There is human suffering everywhere, and not just on the other side of the world. If you get hurt and break your back, I will break mine to help you out. If you whine about how it's not fair that you can't afford a new game console, I will laugh in your face.
TangoAlphaLima
Member
FYI, part of the reason new games drop in price is because the used game market creates a market of supply and demand that sucks the new game price down with it. Ain't nobody buying a 3 month-old game for $60 when it's selling for $35 used.
whalenapp81
Member
Always buy EA games on Black Friday for this very reason.
That's exactly my point. It is ludicrous to think that placing restrictions on used games will have any kind of major impact on a game console. See my earlier comments regarding Steam, and the numerous articles out there about how Steam essentially saved the concept of the PC as a place that publishers can make money on games.
This doesn't mean the rest of world works the same way.
Prices here stay at 60 euro well into a year after release. Sometimes even longer.
Yes Steam really solved that used games problem the PC had beforehand.
Ugh, I'm done arguing. We'll just have to wait and see I guess. You're taking random facts and fitting them wherever it fits for you.
ManUtdRedDevils
Member
Love seeing the media support more anti-consumer practices. PA has clearly turned a corner.
There is nothing wrong with a developer or publish wanting to make the most that they can... However if they think removing second hand sales will do this, I want to see what economic model they are following, where second hand tariffs have ever been proof of increasing over-all disposable income from person-to-person with a particular industry.
DC1
Member
Your name has been noted. I am a fan.
XxHANNERxX
Banned
But what policy? The one that they haven't given all the details for? That's the problem. No one knows all the details yet. Everyone is getting angry at potentially nothing.
TangoAlphaLima
Member
Hold on, that's not what you were saying. You said the Wii U should be successful because it doesn't restrict used games. That's nonsensical, because every console has not restricted used games to this point in time.
What you are failing to address is what happens when one console does not restrict used games, the PS4, while another direct competitor does, the Xbox One. We've never seen this happen in the marketplace before. Already there has been huge backlash here on GAF about the Xbox One's used game restriction. You honestly think this will have zero impact on console sales?
The Steam discussion is mostly irrelevant. Publishers like Steam because Steam made DRM okay, made digital purchases easy, and gave little incentive for people to pirate. It's really not a relevant topic.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
They've told us enough for pretty sweeping articles like the one we're in the thread for.
You're doing the exact same thing. We don't have any clue at all how used games are going to work on the new Xbox, but you flew off the handle all the same. All we know is we will be able to resell them somehow, and the box will require at least an intermittent Internet connection. I think they will have to backpedal on the 24 restriction, if Phil Harrison wasn't just guessing, which I'm not convinced he wasn't.
I think these debates will become much more fruitful after E3. We are essentially arguing semantics and "what ifs" at this point.
This is pretty damn comprehensive and excellent post.
Keyword. It can fall either way but with the interviews and responses so far....it's sure isn't nothing.
Zabant
Member
People living in shitty situations with no hope of their lives ever getting better use games as a form of escapism, it's the classic trope of our medium. To tell them they can no longer indulge and must #dealwithit is extremely harsh and does nothing but foster ill feelings and take away what little enjoyment they have left. Nobody here is bitching about the costs of consoles, they're upset at anti consumer measures that didnt exist before in prior generations.
Also, while technically right, calling video games toys is like calling all animation cartoons. It strips all the artistic merit and cultural significance the medium has out and brings them down to a level of something that's only for children, something to be used and when it gets old is thrown away.
WrenchNinja
Member
Don't even bother. Dude accused everyone who was against always-online back in the original Adam Orth thread of being pirates.
XxHANNERxX
Banned
I agree with Ben there. If you are that low income that you don't have broadband, you should probably not be buying a console that is all about being connected to the internet. Priorities, get them straight.
AHA-Lambda
Member
Oh hurray for giving up my consumer rights just to shut down a chain you don't like? That's just bloody stupid.
Ignorant.
Ah yes, "used game" issue, again being looked at so simply by so many industries and consumers, that the intrinsic value(or lack there-of) is completely lost on many.
As someone who rarely if ever buys a used game, the second hand market in a lot of ways increases the demand for new games, and only in cases where there is an abundance of that particular used game, does the second-hand market negatively impact a new game. Even when the second hand sale does negatively impact new game copies, it isnt on a dollar-for-dollar basis, the extent of its effects is largely based on the value of the original product, before reaching second hand. This reminds me a lot of when people were freaking out over used book sales through amazon. You know what happened as a result? The market adjusted and start selling e-books at a cheaper rate then physical books because the transaction costs were reduced.
What the game industry is currently trying to do is have its cake and eat the whole thing, too. It wants to push out the second hand market, focus on the perks of not needing the physical package, and rely on the internet to help alleviate the costs, while not adjusting their prices accordingly. They essentially want to be e-books, but without any adjustment to cost. This has a chance of completely biting them in the ass in the long run, and because of this we actually may see a very real decline in new game purchases because of this aggressive idea.
As someone who is not a huge fan of the second hand market, because I like knowing who I am essentially giving my "demand" to, I'm not blind enough not to see the intrinsic value in allowing for a second hand market to exist. This is the equivalent of Latin America putting ridicules tariffs on used cars to force people to buy new. It will backfire, and the economic health of the game industry will be the response. The second-hand market grows if transaction costs decrease or if product lifetime increases. The growth of the secondhand market reduces demand for new goods if there are used goods that can be brought into the market(essentially the product has low value of owning or high sell value). But if there is not a ready supply of used goods, growth of the second-hand market can increase demand for new goods, thereby increasing material consumption. Moreover, even when second-hand sales reduce demand for new goods, it is typically not on a one-for-one basis. The extent to which the purchase of used goods replaces the purchase of new goods is shown to be an explicit function of the relative value provided by used versus new goods.
There is a very good reason that we dont have a lot of detailed numbers, that compare the value of a second hand market for new goods; the obfuscation this brings is a desire from companies so they can adjust a consumers expectation and their personal wealth, while also attempting to keep them in the dark.
Pyramid head
Banned
Usually, piracy involves circumnavigating whatever anti-piracy measures are in place. If piracy is possible on the system, then there will be piracy on the system. Online-check DRM isn't going to stop piracy if the process is avoided in modded consoles.
The only people who are affected by this type of DRM are legitimate customers.
Some people are feverishly clawing at the bottom of the barrel to justify this stuff.
As for used games, if I can't sell it when I'm done with it, then I'm sorry developers but unless you're game is offering me a hell of a lot of replay value, then I'm probably not going to be buying it at all. Does that improve your sale figures?
The only people who are affected by this type of DRM are legitimate customers.
Some people are feverishly clawing at the bottom of the barrel to justify this stuff.
As for used games, if I can't sell it when I'm done with it, then I'm sorry developers but unless you're game is offering me a hell of a lot of replay value, then I'm probably not going to be buying it at all. Does that improve your sale figures?
AHA-Lambda
Member
So buy not buying your kid an Xbone, you are a good parent? I recall getting an SNES and a Genesis from my parents when I was a kid. I haven't taken a dime from them since I was 18. I'm not sure how buying a holiday gift for a kid builds entitlement.
As for "toys", if you are truly poor, it's little things like being able to watch TV or playing a used game on your used xbox, on your pawn shop tv that may bring you a little happiness, especially if you're a kid.