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[Mihos]

Haru probably went so far down because about 40% stopped playing before she was introduced and have no idea who she is.

Ryuji was robbed. On paper I should hate him but he is just too damn likeable even if he is an idiot. The english VA was also by far the best of the bunch, ton of energy.

FOR REAL ?!?!??!

 

[ChasingComets]

In what respect!? Things to keep in mind:

1) The Maniax user poll had a small sample size.
2) You emphasize "least liked" as if he was goddamn crushed by his teammates, but he was only 6 points below Ann)
3) Using the fact that he placed last in order to support your conclusion that he "failed" as a character is absolutely laughable, because being least liked does not automatically mean he was a bad character. (Ani If we were to use your logic, then I suppose Joker was a paragon when it came to writing.)

Here's the results of a different poll conducted with a much larger sample:

Just a couple of things I want to point out, something to keep in mind while one looks at this poll - The wikiBBS poll has been running since October last year, there are no character categories, international players can also vote, and it also allows people to keep voting on it, with the only restriction being you can vote once a day. It's a much larger sample size of course and the numbers are there, but the way it was conducted and the methodology is also fairly different. I guess the best approximation is something like a gamefaq poll?

Spoiler

And PK the numbers you posted are also a bit outdated, thought the rankings haven't changed drastically.

 

[MoonFrog]

Well no, but you're always going to get the same people tripping over themselves to worship Makoto (a character who is by design, meant to be likeable) compared to an overtly flawed character like Ryuji. It's disappointingly predictable.

I think this dichotomy is a bit silly.

It is not like Makoto doesn't have overt flaws that set people off: she's nosy, she's prissy about studying, she's robotic in most social settings, she tries to bury her feelings, etc.

The (late--I don't know about early) confidant thread is full of people picking up on those traits and not liking her for them. Perhaps it is a contrarian thread--I wouldn't doubt that, but they're picking up on a current of her character that is intentionally there.

It was a current I noticed in my first playthrough and I was quite anxious about just how much my sister was going to hate her when she played it herself, particularly in the Futaba sequence. Turns out I predicted pretty accurately. She had misgivings about her throughout but when she pushed herself ineffectually on Futaba, that set my sister through the roof. She calmed down afterwards.

And that is in the game--Makoto pushes the issue with Futaba and then the MC and Ann are the ones who can actually talk to her. And this continues afterwards with Makoto being a complete dud in all of those Futaba scenes thereafter.

And that's just my sister--there's plenty of "She's not really a badass, she's just a prissy goody-two-shows. That awakening is false advertisement!" and plenty of "She doesn't love me enough!" going around.

My point is, just because a lot of people aren't put out by her character doesn't mean she is some genetically engineered monstrosity.

Ryuji is being worse than Junpei is debatable, but he's definitely stronger than Yosuke. Yosuke was a character who was unbelievably inconsistent and the type of comic relief character that could get immensely grating at times. If the character concept behind Junpei was "that guy you knew in highschool", Yosuke is "that guy you knew in highschool but greatly exaggerated."

I don't think there is one such type. I think you are running into a lot of people who think Ryuji is that kind of character.

Also, I've discussed with you why I think Yosuke is a deeper, more interesting character than Ryuji before. I think we just disagree there.

As to Junpei--he obviously has a better mid-game crisis than Ryuji. Ryuji's main story presence is a mere shadow of that that, as I said, avoids actually going anywhere with Ryuji himself. Ryuji does have a good confidant, imo. But I don't think that completely makes up for the discrepancy in main game performance.

 

[Novel Mike]

I like Ann. While it is true that she doesn't really develop much beyond the first arc, she still has some really good moments afterward that were memorable enough for me.

I was never too bothered by the whole sex appeal aspect of her character, since Persona in general flips from seriousness to humor a lot, like the whole nude painting thing I never really dwelled on as much as others seemed to. The only part that ever perturbed me were the scenes with Ryuji creeping on her but when she ends up teasing him for it when they are at the beach it wasn't so bad.

I like Ann a lot but I HATE how the game treats her. She is literally objectified by both the story at various times and the games freaking camera. Showing off her tits and ass in battle at every turn. I normally wouldn't care about this kind thing either but the problem is that this is literally objectifying a victim of sexual assault, that is really fucking messed up when you think about it. As I said in my post before, it would be one thing if it didn't bother her or she herself was comfortable with what happens to her but she clearly isn't. She freaks out when the guys want her to go nude and rightly so and they just push her into it.

Seriously when you think that she would have been the one raped by Kamoshida instead of Shiho if events had turned out differently and then look at how the game actually treats her with what I mentioned above I'm really surprised more people aren't finding that so troubling.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

1) The Maniax user poll had a small sample size.

Pet peeve of mine here: the sample size of 1800 used in the Maniax user poll is completely fine and not small at all. The differences between the Maniax poll and the one you posted are more likely to be differences in methodology or audience instead of having anything to do with sample size.

 

[Opa-Pa]

I think Yosuke is terrible but there was definitely interesting material in his arc and the idea behind his problems appealed to me a lot initially. He was one of my favorite characters back in the day but my opinion of him has soured with every subsequent playthrough, and now I see him as the poster child of everything wrong with modern Persona writing, and if anything I see Ryuji as evidence that perhaps the team has matured a little bit since Persona 4. They simply aren't comparable in my eyes.

I like Ann a lot but I HATE how the game treats her. She is literally objectified by both the story at various times and the games freaking camera. Showing off her tits and ass in battle at every turn. I normally wouldn't care about this kind thing either but the problem is that this is literally objectifying a victim of sexual assault, that is really fucking messed up when you think about it. As I said in my post before, it would be one thing if it didn't bother her or she herself was comfortable with what happens to her but she clearly isn't. She freaks out when the guys want her to go nude and rightly so and they just push her into it.

Seriously when you think that she would have been the one raped by Kamoshida instead of Shiho if events had turned out differently and then look at how the game actually treats her with what I mentioned above I'm really surprised more people aren't finding that so troubling.

Yeah exactly, I find Ann very likeable and I'm super fond of her, but IMO the writers simply weren't up to the task of delivering with a character like her (just like they didn't with many of the games' main themes, but that's a different discussion). She's literally at odds with her struggle because the game wants to have a sexual harassment victim character who's also a fanservice machine, and both things simply aren't compatible, she's all over the place.

As for people not seeing a problem with this... Well, sadly the reality is that there isn't much overlap between the game's target audience and people sensible to these issues. It sucks.

 

[MiguelMexMIstery]

I like Ann a lot but I HATE how the game treats her. She is literally objectified by both the story at various times and the games freaking camera. Showing off her tits and ass in battle at every turn. I normally wouldn't care about this kind thing either but the problem is that this is literally objectifying a victim of sexual assault, that is really fucking messed up when you think about it. As I said in my post before, it would be one thing if it didn't bother her or she herself was comfortable with what happens to her but she clearly isn't. She freaks out when the guys want her to go nude and rightly so and they just push her into it.

Seriously when you think that she would have been the one raped by Kamoshida instead of Shiho if events had turned out differently and then look at how the game actually treats her with what I mentioned above I'm really surprised more people aren't finding that so troubling.

They tease her but having her go naked was never their intention

 

[PK Gaming]

I think this dichotomy is a bit silly.

It is not like Makoto doesn't have overt flaws that set people off: she's nosy, she's prissy about studying, she's robotic in most social settings, she tries to bury her feelings, etc.

Their respective flaws don't even begin to compare to each other, though. Ryuji has spots of being a genuinely shitty person, while Makoto's overt flaw" are really muted by comparison. Being prissy about studying and burying your feelings isn't a significant character flaw. Neither of these are comparable to being temperamental, conceited and aggressive AND stupid. Sure, you occasionally get a "Makoto is boring" type of posts, but they're comparatively significantly less common than "FUCK RYUJI, HE'S A SHITHEAD" type posts. This thread is proof undeniable of that.

My point is, just because a lot of people aren't put out by her character doesn't mean she is some genetically engineered monstrosity.

She kind of is. and she kind of isn't. Granted, I like Makoto and I think she's a really cool character, but they tried their hardest to make super likeable. She's got the beauty and brawn thing going on, but I'm also talking about her gap moe moments and the ship teasing moments with Joker which are obviously designed to pander to a certain demographic. She's unquestionably the most well-rounded character in the party and her overwhelming popularity is a result of that. It's not inherently bad though, and Makoto's autonomy (contrary to popular belief, she isn't hopelessly in love with Joker) is fucking awesome.

don't think there is one such type. I think you are running into a lot of people who think Ryuji is that kind of character.

Well you did bring it up, but I agree. I think people use the "bro character" label too loosely. Ryuji isn't fiercely devoted to you like Yosuke was, and Junpei's entire character went against being the protagonist's bro.

Also, I've discussed with you why I think Yosuke is a deeper, more interesting character than Ryuji before. I think we just disagree there.

I actually sort of agree, but as I said before they completely botch Yosuke's characterization in the main narrative, selling him out for cheap jokes.

EDIT:

Pet peeve of mine here: the sample size of 1800 used in the Maniax user poll is completely fine and not small at all. The differences between the Maniax poll and the one you posted are more likely to be differences in methodology or audience instead of having anything to do with sample size.

My bad. I remember reading a thread about how poll's actually worked so this is a pretty big failing on my part, heh.

 

[Silvard]

Ryuji's the kind of character you really have to pay attention in order to really appreciate. It's the little things that make him great imo.

Hahaha, okay. Let's just agree to disagree.

Seriously when you think that she would have been the one raped by Kamoshida instead of Shiho if events had turned out differently and then look at how the game actually treats her with what I mentioned above I'm really surprised more people aren't finding that so troubling.

I remember a lot of people being upset about this while I was playing. It's bad enough she checks out as a character after the first quarter of the game.

 

[PK Gaming]

Hahaha, okay. Let's just agree to disagree.

You just had to throw in that last laugh, didn't you.

 

[Novel Mike]

They tease her but having her go naked was never their intention

But she still freaks out and doesn't want to do it and they basically force her into doing it.

It's scummy as all hell.

 

[MoonFrog]

Their respective flaws don't even begin to compare to each other, though. Ryuji has spots of being a genuinely shitty person, while Makoto's overt flaw" are really muted by comparison. Being prissy about studying and burying your feelings isn't a significant character flaw. Neither of these are comparable to being temperamental, conceited and aggressive AND stupid. Sure, you occasionally get a "Makoto is boring" type of posts, but they're comparatively significantly less common than "FUCK RYUJI, HE'S A SHITHEAD" type posts. This thread is proof undeniable of that.

She kind of is. and she kind of isn't. Granted, I like Makoto and I think she's a really cool character, but they tried their hardest to make super likeable. She's got the beauty and brawn thing going on, but I'm also talking about her gap moe moments and the ship teasing moments with Joker which are obviously designed to pander to a certain demographic. She's unquestionably the most well-rounded character in the party and her overwhelming popularity is a result of that. It's not inherently bad though, and Makoto's autonomy (contrary to popular belief, she isn't hopelessly in love with Joker) is fucking awesome.

The nosy thing is what really gets to my sister.

Again, take the Futaba sequence. Makoto's response to figuring out that Futaba is Alibaba and that Futaba has anxiety issues is to "get business done." In the end, that is really important to moving the narrative forward and also really important to getting anything done with Futaba but all Makoto does is bring you to the door and hamfistedly tell Futaba things she already knows. She tells her what getting better is, coming out of the door and such. She isn't able to communicate on an actually cathartic level and instead just butts her head in. This persists throughout the whole Futaba sequence. She is always the least able to communicate with Futaba and yet she is always the one who presses the issue.

I take the good with the bad there: she does get the people in the room who actually do help through her go-getter attitude even if she can't always solve the problem herself and Futaba was asking for help. My sister takes the "she's a prissy, clueless busybody who is also boring" reading of her.

And this Futaba arc is not the only thing that makes her think such: her whole confidant is literally her thinking someone in her school might have a problem and insistently inserting herself into it. She can't help herself even when she has her doubts that she is correct. Sure, she holds back from pushing things to a head. Sure it is pretty obvious that she is correct when she actually moves. Sure she ends up actually being friends with the girl. But it is still her sticking her nose where it is questionable if it belongs. With the drug problem the student came to her for help. With Eiko, she sought out someone, on a personal basis and not someone at a place people go for help or in obvious distress, to help because she "wanted to do something" in the broad sense.

...

As to the bolded, I don't know what you mean, but I think she is pretty smitten with MC and that it is also not such popular belief . IDK, again, the only place I discussed this was late-stage confidant thread and there the Makoto-doesn't-love-me problem was a thing.

 

[Lynx_7]

I think Yosuke is terrible but there was definitely interesting material in his arc and the idea behind his problems appealed to me a lot initially. He was one of my favorite characters back in the day but my opinion of him has soured with every subsequent playthrough, and now I see him as the poster child of everything wrong with modern Persona writing, and if anything I see Ryuji as evidence that perhaps the team has matured a little bit since Persona 4. They simply aren't comparable in my eyes.

You know, despite all the shit he gets in these discussions I still consider Yosuke one of my favorite characters in the franchise, but it's been like... 8? 9 years since I last played P4?
I hope I don't have that same experience when I do come back to it, of meeting an old friend you thought was the coolest back at high school but then years later you realize he's kind of an asshole.

 

[MoonFrog]

Being an outsider, being uncomfortably affluent, having "hollow" friendships--these were all interesting to me.

I think his homophobia could also have been an interesting thing to explore but the game itself backed away from the many gender and sexuality issues it touched, including that.

I also do agree that Persona 4 has the most "bad" anime moments of the games and most of those involve Yosuke and/or Teddy. Not all though--the fat hating stuff is on the girls, for example.

 

[Opa-Pa]

But she still freaks out and doesn't want to do it and they basically force her into doing it.

It's scummy as all hell.

Yup, that's what really matters in the end. Ryuji and Morgana's true intentions don't really matter (or even Yusuke's, who was oblivious to her struggles and social cues in general) when the end result of Ann feeling vulnerable is the same. The main problem here is that the writers considered these gags as something sensible to include after her arc at all, yikes.

You know, despite all the shit he gets in these discussions I still consider Yosuke one of my favorite characters in the franchise, but it's been like... 8? 9 years since I last played P4?
I hope I don't have that same experience when I do come back to it, of meeting an old friend you thought was the coolest back at high school but then years later you realize he's kind of an asshole.

It's tragic, really. I've been aware of Yosuke's flaws for a long time and I even still liked him last time I played P4, which was back when P4G released, but what really made me shift my opinion of him was seeing my sister play P4G (her first experience with P4). She being a girl obviously makes her more alert to his creepiness and it brought to my attention that the most "memorable" bad moments of him aside (the scene with the bikinis and his constant teasing on Kanji), he's literally always doing/saying stuff that makes somebody in the group uncomfortable (for laughs), the guy doesn't stop, to the point I question if the team would even like him in a more realistic context.

It sucked realizing this because I have very fond memories of the entire cast, but I've come to accept that Yosuke is a bad character and I can't like him anymore (outside of some genuinely good moments, some of which come from spinoffs of all things). Not trying to imply this should happen to everyone though, of course.

Also, it really sucks that Golden itself added many scenes that actually further ruin the game in this sense. Some of these affect Yosuke (that operation babe hunt crap at the mall), but generally the group's dynamic is affected as well, which sucks because the game is supposed to be the ultimate version of P4.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Makoto wins best dressed award for sure.

 

[dhlt25]

they got it right, ryuji is a fucking idiot.

 

[Silvard]

You just had to throw in that last laugh, didn't you.

Sorry, sorry, I promise you I didn't mean to antagonize. I just legitimately found this whole argument funny all of the sudden. Neither of us has any chance of convincing the other and I understand where you're coming from, I just wholeheartedly disagree.

 

[PK Gaming]

As to the bolded, I don't know what you mean, but I think she is pretty smitten with MC and that it is also not such popular belief . IDK, again, the only place I discussed this was late-stage confidant thread and there the Makoto-doesn't-love-me problem was a thing.

I dunno man, if you go through the friendship route with her she's one of the only girls who doesn't take it super badly. In fact, you actually get points with her for doing that, and Joker is the one who initiates. And even when you date her, she's not as sappy as the others. The I love you's feel are less frequent and more natural, when Joker leaves at the end she handles it pretty well, and there are those infamous Confidant locks of hers.

"Frankly, you're not worth my time" and "To be honest, I agree with Eiko (re: your appearance)"

I really appreciated that aspect of her, since it's different from the usual romance in this series. She's not puddy in your hands. Hell, you can tell Makoto will wear the pants in that relationship.

 

[sasliquid]

Makato and Yusuke are the clear winners.

I like Ryuiji but he feels like a mashing together of Junpei, Yosuke and Kanji so ends up feeling a bit derivative.

Ann gets thrown to the wayside and objectified too much following her arc.

Morganas constant need to comment on everything is annoying and impacts player agency.

Futaba is a mixed bag, starts with lots of promise but her leet haxor skills feel completely detached from the other more grounded humans.

Haru is introduced too late and never really gets time to interact with the group outside of the plot.

In fact that's why I like the cast of 4 more, I feel they get more time to act as actual friends and teenagers. Most of 5s group scenes are very centred around the main plot and phantom theives business.

 

[MoonFrog]

I dunno man, if you go through the friendship route with her she's one of the only girls who doesn't take it super badly. In fact, you actually get points with her for doing that, and Joker is the one who initiates. And even when you date her, she's not as sappy as the others. The I love you's feel are less frequent and more natural, when Joker leaves at the end she handles it pretty well, and there are those infamous Confidant locks of hers.

"Frankly, you're not worth my time" and "To be honest, I agree with Eiko (re: your appearance)"

I really appreciated that aspect of her, since it's different from the usual romance in this series. She's not puddy in your hands. Hell, you can tell Makoto will wear the pants in that relationship.

I've thought a lot about this. Probably too much

That said: you can be your own person and be deeply in love. I don't see what that has to do with autonomy. They can run afoul of each other. Like I think dating Futaba with her dependency issues as are in game would be problematic, personally. I think that is a way the structure of the game isn't as amenable to Futaba romance as it could be. This is why I didn't get what you were saying.

I'm gonna go fishing for some more.

Supplemental #1
Supplemental #2

As to the locks:

I feel the charm one is awkward. You don't need it to impress her and she even says she thinks Eiko is wrong about you and it would be okay in person. Other charm blocks are much more sensible along the lines of kindness blocks: "Person is shy or in bad way and you need charm/kindness to cut through that."

The knowledge one isn't awkward. She's just concerned for your studying and isn't going to take up your time (that you aren't being super thief) getting in the way of your studies, which she thinks need to improve. (It also isn't that high a block)

And she's actually quite encouraging/up beat about your studies if you study with her or during the group sections. I definitely felt Makoto was a smart, polished girl that wasn't put up as beyond me. (And that's a lot of Makoto period.) As an intelligent man who likes intelligent women, it felt nice how much I could play our relationship like that, where she was more put together and experienced than me but respected my insight and capabilities.

Sure the game didn't let me choose much, but Makoto looks to you a lot even when you don't get a dialogue option, as if she'd like to read your face to check what you think, without ever becoming slavish or anything. Just felt like she respected me as I respected her.

IDK. It scratched my id. As did the kinds of ways in which she was smart and the places where she focused her attention and, on the other hand, the ways in which she was naive or silly and where she focused her curiosity.

...

Especially when the tendency in fiction is to play "dumb" with smart for tension, differentiation, so you don't get much content like this.

As to commitment:

Yeah, Makoto is in pretty deep and is pretty staid in her ways to boot. Sure, things could go south but generally she's presented as one that keeps, from her dad's moisturizer, to her ideals, to her pencil case, to you.

Plus it is damn obvious from the date scenes (and the conversation about her dad and his passion) that she feels more than she lets on explicitly.

Her relationship is about finding a partner as much as it is about finding someone to open herself and the world up to her.

Her looking for a "study partner" is her being coy and embarassed and unexpressive and trying to avoid the issue. Just as when she sneaks your number and signs you up as her fake boyfriend without your say-so. She's trying not to broach the issue while also trying to push something to happen. And she is always embarassed/sheepish about it after the fact (which is how she feels about her passions). It isn't literally an experiment where she's taking volunteers.

...

But it is an interesting issue...

I dated Rise in P4 and that is a relationship I saw falling through eventually after she returned to being an idol. Both because a boyfriend is explicitly what she was looking for and because an idol career is not kind to relationships.

The way I saw it, Rise was (at first) into MC as eligible, generic boyfriend she wanted to have. She became an idol because she wanted to reach out to people and found it lacking. She stopped being an idol again to reach out to people and have a certain experience she wanted, which included a boyfriend. Couple that with a desire to "work her wiles" and there is a certain falseness to her approach and the MC sort of thwarts this falseness in a mix of getting her to open up as a person and not falling for a lot of her ploys. This both confuses and frustrates her and makes her actually come around to loving the dude, but I imagine dating her would very much be the "high school dating experience" and you'd never really break through all her issues and that it is telling she comes around to idoling again, as if she had accomplished what she'd set out to do with you already.

and:

I was actually surprised by how committed Makoto seemed to keeping things going in the future. I feel like the previous games were much more "well our time is over see ya lol" when it came to relationships. It was nice to have some of the characters explicitly state that they wanted to stay in the relationship after you moved back.

Yeah. The entire Valentine Day scene with Makoto is about commitment. She gives you music notes if you tell her to prepare it homemade next year. And for the more direct affirmation of commitment.

(haven't seen the other Valentine days).

And then when you say good-bye it is all "you'll have more of me than you can handle." (last day)

...

Also, she is pretty sappy despite being all "I can't be the bubbly girlfriend." Moreover, part of the whole point of her is that she can be deeply in love with you without being the "bubbly girlfriend."

I think to read Makoto as not deeply involved is to misread her character and miss some key components thereof.

 

[Lunafreya Nox Fleuret]

I dont like Ryuji at all for a variety of reasons. He tries to get Phantom thief fame to win girls, he always blabs about shitty adults and it becomes insufferable after awhile. He is just loud, incredibly annoying, and while I understand he is Joker's bro/first friend, it's weird that he complains more than the entire cast put together. I like how the member of the Phantom thieves tease him a lot because he's a downright jackarse and I always took options to piss him off in game cause I cant stand him. This poll is correct that Ryuji is rock bottom but I will say that he does have some good moments about his past. He's obviously a very sad kid and has his mum on his mind a lot but man he just ruins everything for the group that it's straight impossible to like him. His complaints pretty much come down to shitty adults, awww man, FOR REAL?!, and arguing with Morgana a lot and yes I know Morgana started shite with him but both of them deserve that shite for being insufferable.

 

[Salty Rice]

These are solid results that are really similar to my preferences.

Well deserved Queen and Pancakes.

 

[PK Gaming]

I've thought a lot about this. Probably too much

Definitely, definitely, definitely. Though it's not a bad thing, since you've got a really good grasp on her character now.

- I feel the game also pushes her very much on the MC, like it does Futaba, if in a subtler way. She singles you out among your group of friends during her investigation (Both when she accosts you all and in her stalking). She is one of the characters who seeks/respects your input the most. There are those canned skinship scenes in the Futaba sequence at the ghost house and with the sphinx. She sets herself up as elder sister to Futaba to match your elder brother. In the bikini scene she is trying to impress someone, and I think it makes most sense that it is you. Etc.

Makoto seeks out you, sees in you, an answer to her existential crisis. She is continually curious about your input and seeks your companionship and seeks to grow with you by her side. Makoto's loveline on you is, in part, that she sees you as a person to answer her crisis with, to learn from and with. I think the game makes it clear that she is both particularly interested in you, per the second item above, and that it makes her relationship to you is tied into her overarching narrative.

Man, I didn't consider any of this stuff. I was so used these games handling romance akin to a VERY LOUD, AHOOGA horn, so some of this definitely flew over my head. Still, it's cool how in spite of all of this, Makoto will accept not dating you pretty well. This is in huge contrasts to even some of the adults (like Tae, who says "I can take a hint")

 

[ChasingComets]

So apparently, there's this little tidbit regarding Akechi in the maniax book interview with Hashino.

https://twitter.com/p5cezaria/status/893453291442458624

 

[CielTynave]

So apparently, there's this little tidbit regarding Akechi in the maniax book interview with Hashino.

https://twitter.com/p5cezaria/status/893453291442458624

:|

Not surprised, but still pretty disappointed.

 

[Puruzi]

Thank you for fighting the good fight PK Gaming.

Ryuji is that boy, people just hatin.

 

[stryke]

Surprised Ann is so low

 

[FFFanatic]

After beating the game, I spent a lot of time wondering how they could have 'fixed' Haru.
As others have said, she's all around not a very well-developed character.
Her introduction is probably the worst of all the party members, sadly.

Having thought about it for awhile, these are some of the ideas I've had:


- Meet Haru much, MUCH earlier in the game.
A perfect time would be shortly after Makoto catches you having the meeting on the roof, and she essentially throws you out.
You could run into Haru moving her gardening supplies up there,and help out.
Some mandatory scenes could now happen as the story progresses, prior to her joining up.

- Have Haru show up at Leblanc as a customer, just like Akechi

- Allow starting her Social link much earlier, but gate it like Sojiro's (IE: can't go past rank x until y story event)
Would probably need to be partially re-written.

- Have Haru join during Futaba's dungeon.
Put her in a position where she's the only one who can save the party.
This would give her a bit more time to bond with the party.

- The decision to go after Okumura would now carry more weight, since Haru would be a phantom thief during this part of the story.
She could even be the one given the final say, and give the go ahead.


All that would be great in a potential 'golden' addition down the road.

...but they'll probably just add some hotsprings cutscene instead. =/

 

[BaasRed]

Akechi...Akechi...Akechi...

You could've been a cool rival with an alternate and relevant point of view.

Instead you were just a raging hypocrite and a stereotypical "dark twisted cute rival boy with daddy issues" and all of this was revealed in information dumps, which didn't even bother to explicate just which crimes were yours (who killed Wakaba?).

Really surprised people liked him that much.

Yeah at least the last game we knew who and how the crimes were committed. Here it feels rushed.

 

[TwiztidElf]

This poll needs to be nuked from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

 

[Setsu00]

Yeah at least the last game we knew who and how the crimes were committed. Here it feels rushed.

What else is there to know?

Spoiler

Akechi murdered Wakaba's Shadow, so she died as well and that's how it worked for all cases in the game.

 

[Ydelnae]

I still think that the best way to "fix" Akechi (I actually liked the character and only felt disappointed by that last cutscene and how his story developed afterwards) is to give him his own playable epilogue set after P5. We already know that he survives, since the game never states that he dies and Atlus is basically spelling out loud that we will hear more about what happened to him after P5.

If they re-release P5, give him a "The Answer" type of epilogue with redemption as the main theme. We can learn more about his side of the original P5 story and they can work his character into the inevitable reunion with the Phantom Thieves. I would rather have that than P5 Golden in which they retcon the last act of the game into having Akechi magically appear, with no build up and "betraying" the story of the original game and its themes.

In other news:

15 Ohya - 2 votes out of 1800 respondents

It's what she deserves.

 

[Salty Rice]

So apparently, there's this little tidbit regarding Akechi in the maniax book interview with Hashino.

https://twitter.com/p5cezaria/status/893453291442458624

Spoiler

Im already hype for his return in Persona 5 Dancing. His pancake dance gonna be delicious.

 

[bunkitz]

Joker winning by a landslide was to be expected, and I would agree with it. Makoto, Yusuke, and Futaba just behind Joker is awesome and something I would agree with once again. Not too sure how I'd rank the rest, though, but I feel bad that Ryuji is at the bottom. I guess it should be expected too, since his flaw (you know, the whole being too loud and vulgar, etc.) is the easiest to spot throughout the game.

I heard that Goro is popular in Japan, so I guess that's why he's #1... but it still feels like an insult seeing him above Takemi and Sojiro. At least they're right after. Damn glad to see Toranosuke get lots of votes too!

Among the other characters, I only care about Lala Escargot and Lavensa, and the latter not so much even. Still, very glad and amused to see Lala up there. She should be a full-on Confidant for the re-release. I wouldn't mind if they did a P4 and turned the Devil Confidant into a choice between her and Ohya. (although I do like Ohya more now that I've finished her Confidant story)

Arsene and Johanna being #1 and #2 is totally deserved, and once again something I agree with. The fact that Mercurius is not anywhere in that list is... upsetting. Although, I suppose it's because there aren't nearly as much people who saw the Ultimate Persona. He's at the bottom, though, so this is baffling. His design is fucking awesome. And Anat's is not. The only cool thing about Anat is that she's a transformer and we see Johanna riding in then deploying into Anat when Makoto summons her Persona. At least Kamu Susano'O's pretty high up among the Ultimate Personas, I guess.

I'm surprised Yusuke's awakening got so many votes. Then again, I suppose it was still pretty cool, but I thought it paled in comparison to Akira's, Makoto's, and Ryuji's. A little disappointing that the final calling card didn't place so high. That's my personal favorite, alongside summoning Satanael and the fake death plan.

 

[dramatis]

Futaba's one of my top 5 for the entire series. She's the funniest member and has the best character development imo. I found her awkwardness very relatable.

Futaba is an amazing bit of character work once one gets away from the "best girl" angle.

In fact, most of these hated Persona characters require that severance to show how much they shine, especially in light of the game's forest-for-the-trees blatantness about societal disfunction and misanthropy.

I disagree.

Fundamentally speaking, it is impossible to separate Futaba from the "best girl" angle, or more bluntly, the waifu angle. Her character, much moreso than the others, is constructed entirely on the basis of being an ideal waifu for nerds, from character design, quirks, personality, to her plot arc and her confidante story.

First off, her age being noticeably younger than the others in your party, and reflected in design, is clearly intended to cast her as more vulnerable, less knowledgeable, and more "pure and innocent" than the other girls. Her interest in nerdy stuff and computers makes her into wish fulfillment for otaku who would like a girl that is into the same stuff as them. Combined with her age and given vulnerabilities, Futaba is essentially a dream girl for a player that has the same interests but the power imbalance means she is under the 'control' of her more experienced 'senpai'.

Futaba's plot arc revolves around having a personal tragedy, and requesting the assistance of the 'hero' to save her from that tragedy. Unlike the other palaces, her plot arc strictly focuses on her rather than a particular injustice. Unlike Ann, Makoto, and Haru, Futaba does not awaken until the end of her palace, thus being a passive actor until the end of her plot arc. Players become a white knight in shining armor come to rescue Futaba from her tower.

Notably, the personal tragedy does not give Futaba an 'undesirable' character flaw, like Ohya's drinking problem. Instead she becomes a character afraid of large gatherings and public spaces, which apparently can be solved by the player 'being a nice guy' and carting her from place to place while she clings onto him. The confidante arc where she learns to be better in public, and also helps out a childhood friend, is almost kindergarten-like in its content, except you're doing it with a middle schooler that is really obviously thirsty for the MC. It's galling.

For me, in every aspect it is impossible to see Futaba as anything except as a pandering waifu, and significantly worse than Ann/Makoto/Haru. One might complain about the objectification of Ann, and there's no question about that, but Futaba is much worse because her character is a lot more insidious.

 

[Ultimadrago]

Indeed Futaba is the best girl and waifu.

 

[Shahed]

Futaba shouldn't have had a romantic option in my view, I just don't think it fit. Just because a character is female, doesn't mean said female should dateabale. The fact that you can do so with every female feels incredibly juvenile. There is (or should be) a lot more to these characters that the ability to form a romantic relationship. The only female you can't date is Sae, and I attribute that to the fact her confidant is automatic and not event based, and I'm so glad you can't romance her since that also would have been incredibly weird. I liked Tae. I would have liked her a lot more if she was 'out if reach' if you will.

In one of Futaba's confident ranks, someone in the store (Clerk/Police/Security?) asked the MC who she was, and I responded with family. I feel that works the best for character arc, and the way she, Sojiro and MC relate to each other.

 

[DrunkShogun]

I see the tradition of second bro being the best bro continues. First akihiko then kanji and now yusuke. Still disappointed about Ann. She was the best friend for joker character rather than ryuji.

 

[BTA]

Spoiler

if Atlus really wanted Akechi dead, the game would've spelled it out, instead of labelling him as "missing"

It's ingenious really. Give him the redemptive arc in the spinoffs and get more of that muhnay.

This is what I fully expect and while it'll be satisfying to see that story resolved in a way that's not

Spoiler

a group text

, it's fucking annoying that it's not in the actual game.

EDIT: also uh

y'all realize Futaba's only a year younger than the main character, right

 

[LotusHD]

This is what I fully expect and while it'll be satisfying to see that story resolved in a way that's not

Spoiler

a group text

, it's fucking annoying that it's not in the actual game.

EDIT: also uh

y'all realize Futaba's only a year younger than the main character, right

Has nothing to do with age. Between the little sister/family vibes she and the game puts out, as well as the fact that she was literally a depressed shut-in not that long ago, it didn't feel right to me at all. And it's like yea, she does clearly like you, but as opposed to Haru's obvious affections, it comes off more as her seeming quite co-dependent. Hell, even when you reject her, she's very naive about it.

I just found it amusing that it seems that the game (imo) did everything in its power to not make me interested. (Well, aside from her personality that I'm not really fond of.)

 

[PK Gaming]

I disagree.

Fundamentally speaking, it is impossible to separate Futaba from the "best girl" angle, or more bluntly, the waifu angle. Her character, much moreso than the others, is constructed entirely on the basis of being an ideal waifu for nerds, from character design, quirks, personality, to her plot arc and her confidante story.

First off, her age being noticeably younger than the others in your party, and reflected in design, is clearly intended to cast her as more vulnerable, less knowledgeable, and more "pure and innocent" than the other girls. Her interest in nerdy stuff and computers makes her into wish fulfillment for otaku who would like a girl that is into the same stuff as them. Combined with her age and given vulnerabilities, Futaba is essentially a dream girl for a player that has the same interests but the power imbalance means she is under the 'control' of her more experienced 'senpai'.

Futaba's plot arc revolves around having a personal tragedy, and requesting the assistance of the 'hero' to save her from that tragedy. Unlike the other palaces, her plot arc strictly focuses on her rather than a particular injustice. Unlike Ann, Makoto, and Haru, Futaba does not awaken until the end of her palace, thus being a passive actor until the end of her plot arc. Players become a white knight in shining armor come to rescue Futaba from her tower.

Notably, the personal tragedy does not give Futaba an 'undesirable' character flaw, like Ohya's drinking problem. Instead she becomes a character afraid of large gatherings and public spaces, which apparently can be solved by the player 'being a nice guy' and carting her from place to place while she clings onto him. The confidante arc where she learns to be better in public, and also helps out a childhood friend, is almost kindergarten-like in its content, except you're doing it with a middle schooler that is really obviously thirsty for the MC. It's galling.

For me, in every aspect it is impossible to see Futaba as anything except as a pandering waifu, and significantly worse than Ann/Makoto/Haru. One might complain about the objectification of Ann, and there's no question about that, but Futaba is much worse because her character is a lot more insidious.

I mean sure, all of what you've said more or less lines up on paper, but there are things you didn't consider, like how Futaba is actually a good character in practice. To start, Futaba's arc is undeniably solid, making up one of the biggest emotional cores of the game. Her subsequent involvement and character development in the main narrative is great and her dialogue manages to shine in a game that largely has a substandard localization (the english localization managed to tone down the gamer lingo too). Honestly, Futaba is easily one of the better characters in this game, despite her cliched trappings. One more thing:

Notably, the personal tragedy does not give Futaba an 'undesirable' character flaw, like Ohya's drinking problem. Instead she becomes a character afraid of large gatherings and public spaces, which apparently can be solved by the player 'being a nice guy' and carting her from place to place while she clings onto him.

No, i'd say agoraphobia and suicidal thoughts are pretty undesirable traits that force otaku to confront mental illness and escapism. Sure, there are a handful of "look at how quirky she is!" but Futaba's problems are (surprisingly) treated fairly seriously. It's also weird how you bring up Ohya's drinking problem when that aspect of her is almost entirely played for laughs.

 

[cm osi]

Ryuuji is okay

 

[Dragoon Roll]

Makoto best waifu confirmed.

 

[OrionX]

I disagree.

Fundamentally speaking, it is impossible to separate Futaba from the "best girl" angle, or more bluntly, the waifu angle. Her character, much moreso than the others, is constructed entirely on the basis of being an ideal waifu for nerds, from character design, quirks, personality, to her plot arc and her confidante story.

First off, her age being noticeably younger than the others in your party, and reflected in design, is clearly intended to cast her as more vulnerable, less knowledgeable, and more "pure and innocent" than the other girls. Her interest in nerdy stuff and computers makes her into wish fulfillment for otaku who would like a girl that is into the same stuff as them. Combined with her age and given vulnerabilities, Futaba is essentially a dream girl for a player that has the same interests but the power imbalance means she is under the 'control' of her more experienced 'senpai'.

Futaba's plot arc revolves around having a personal tragedy, and requesting the assistance of the 'hero' to save her from that tragedy. Unlike the other palaces, her plot arc strictly focuses on her rather than a particular injustice. Unlike Ann, Makoto, and Haru, Futaba does not awaken until the end of her palace, thus being a passive actor until the end of her plot arc. Players become a white knight in shining armor come to rescue Futaba from her tower.

Notably, the personal tragedy does not give Futaba an 'undesirable' character flaw, like Ohya's drinking problem. Instead she becomes a character afraid of large gatherings and public spaces, which apparently can be solved by the player 'being a nice guy' and carting her from place to place while she clings onto him. The confidante arc where she learns to be better in public, and also helps out a childhood friend, is almost kindergarten-like in its content, except you're doing it with a middle schooler that is really obviously thirsty for the MC. It's galling.

For me, in every aspect it is impossible to see Futaba as anything except as a pandering waifu, and significantly worse than Ann/Makoto/Haru. One might complain about the objectification of Ann, and there's no question about that, but Futaba is much worse because her character is a lot more insidious.

I do think you make some interesting points, but I guess I don't feel like there's anything wrong with a character needing support from someone else to overcome their issues. That's basically what they did with all the main characters in P4. Futaba's fear, sadness, and self-imposed isolation were crippling her, and the team helped her break free from that, but in the end she was still the one who chose to take her first steps out into the real world. She wanted to change, they just gave her the nudge she needed.

As far as the romance is concerned, I agree it's creepy that Joker can date her immediately after helping her escape a vulnerable place. The whole thing progresses way too fast for it to feel natural, like a tacked on "reward" for the player, not to mention that she feels far too much like a younger sister to Joker. Anyway all I know is I really enjoyed the character and her storyline, and it wasn't because I was looking for an "ideal waifu" since I don't have any interest in that.

 

[Zee-Row]

Kawakami is my babe , she should be #1.

 

[Sandfox]

I disagree.

Fundamentally speaking, it is impossible to separate Futaba from the "best girl" angle, or more bluntly, the waifu angle. Her character, much moreso than the others, is constructed entirely on the basis of being an ideal waifu for nerds, from character design, quirks, personality, to her plot arc and her confidante story.

First off, her age being noticeably younger than the others in your party, and reflected in design, is clearly intended to cast her as more vulnerable, less knowledgeable, and more "pure and innocent" than the other girls. Her interest in nerdy stuff and computers makes her into wish fulfillment for otaku who would like a girl that is into the same stuff as them. Combined with her age and given vulnerabilities, Futaba is essentially a dream girl for a player that has the same interests but the power imbalance means she is under the 'control' of her more experienced 'senpai'.

Futaba's plot arc revolves around having a personal tragedy, and requesting the assistance of the 'hero' to save her from that tragedy. Unlike the other palaces, her plot arc strictly focuses on her rather than a particular injustice. Unlike Ann, Makoto, and Haru, Futaba does not awaken until the end of her palace, thus being a passive actor until the end of her plot arc. Players become a white knight in shining armor come to rescue Futaba from her tower.

Notably, the personal tragedy does not give Futaba an 'undesirable' character flaw, like Ohya's drinking problem. Instead she becomes a character afraid of large gatherings and public spaces, which apparently can be solved by the player 'being a nice guy' and carting her from place to place while she clings onto him. The confidante arc where she learns to be better in public, and also helps out a childhood friend, is almost kindergarten-like in its content, except you're doing it with a middle schooler that is really obviously thirsty for the MC. It's galling.

For me, in every aspect it is impossible to see Futaba as anything except as a pandering waifu, and significantly worse than Ann/Makoto/Haru. One might complain about the objectification of Ann, and there's no question about that, but Futaba is much worse because her character is a lot more insidious.

If anything I would say Makoto plays the "best girl/waifu" role and that's why people like her so much. Futaba is more like a little sister imo.

 

[Zee-Row]

Futaba is only hot in the intro of the game since it shows her typing with black finger nails. Her fingernails aren't black in the game though.

 

[MoonFrog]

I do think you make some interesting points, but I guess I don't feel like there's anything wrong with a character needing support from someone else to overcome their issues. That's basically what they did with all the main characters in P4. Futaba's fear, sadness, and self-imposed isolation were crippling her, and the team helped her break free from that, but in the end she was still the one who chose to take her first steps out into the real world. She wanted to change, they just gave her the nudge she needed.

As far as the romance is concerned, I agree it's creepy that Joker can date her immediately after helping her escape a vulnerable place. The whole thing progresses way too fast for it to feel natural, like a tacked on "reward" for the player, not to mention that she feels far too much like a younger sister to Joker. Anyway all I know is I really enjoyed the character and her storyline, and it wasn't because I was looking for an "ideal waifu" since I don't have any interest in that.

Yeah. Futaba spoke to me and was cool and cute. I also, as I said above, was put off of the romance option by her dependency. But I think reducing her to playing to a type is just way too reductive.

Futaba is, in many ways, obviously date-able Nanako. She has a similar tragic story with her mom. She is similarly lonely and similarly has the MC come into her family and cure her loneliness through being there for her and introducing her to his friends. Nanako homework week is a clear and direct parallel to Futaba bikini week. Both in terms of what they accomplish for the character and in terms of where they fit in the overall game's structure. This is something they are doing with her.

They also do play up just how important you are to her and do tie her romantic angle to you both into that (her clingy-ness) and into the faux-familial thing (you doing her mother's head pat turns her on). Sojiro does weigh in on her and you just like Dojima did with Nanako, although he's less amenable to the idea.

This is all there.

At the same time, I think reducing Futaba's struggles and personal issues to otaku bait is overdoing it. I personally found her confidant and Sojiro's confidant involving her interesting and relevant on a personal level and not in a purely cheap, self-affirming way. I think that people who were turned off of dating her like you and I can see value in it says something.

That's the thing with a lot of anime. Like I think about when my sister really likes an anime girl in a game/show which is clearly, on some level, pandering and doing so with that character. It usually means that there is something else to see there and the character is not completely skin flint pandering. With good/decent anime, a lot of characters are still both of those things.

Or look at my discussion with PK gaming about Makoto above. There are surface level reasons to think the game is shipping you and Makoto, surface level, low-hanging fruit pandering. I also think there is a deeper romantic angle that she has on the MC and less otaku bait signs of affection.

 

[Verder]

Futaba is only hot in the intro of the game since it shows her typing with black finger nails. Her fingernails aren't black in the game though.

https://goo.gl/images/DVUdQf


futaba did have best arc though imho. lightweight upset they never fully went into it