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[Hunter S.]

The thing this survey leaves out is it can mean both things. Most things are not just black and white issues.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Well barbeque and jazz originated in the south I think

Jazz was created by the very black people they wanted to own. Yet they want to fly it under the confederate flag of "southern pride" lol.

It's not irrelevant. If the people who are using the flag truly believe it to be a symbol of southern pride and not of racism, it's everyone else who needs to educate themselves on the meaning of the flag. It only became a symbol of racism as the majority believed it was a symbol of racism. If that is no longer the case, and the majority believe it's not a symbol of racism, it's the minority who have to change their outdated views.

lol. But if they do go and "educate themselves on the meaning of the flag" at that point wouldn't they be in the right to say the people saying it's about heritage and pride are the ones who need to "educate themselves"?

 

[ryutaro's mama]

As someone who grew up in Tennessee but never identified as "southern", lots of people there treat the flag almost like a brand, similar to those "Salt Life" stickers I see on the back of everyone's cars. People view it as a symbol of, basically, not being a "yankee". Working hard, drinking beer, raising hell, and all the other cliche southern things. You can (or could) buy just about anything with the flag on it, just about anywhere and it has definitely been commercialized to the point of losing it's original meaning to many people.

...and generally speaking, the people you described above...what are their views on Black people?

Of course, you find find many black people wearing confederate flag t-shirts, because not everyone has forgotten. Anyway, I'm not trying to defend anyone, instead I thought I'd offer my first-hand experience that a not insignifigant number of people opposed to removing the flag aren't neccesarily racists, just dumb rednecks.

I have been to the South many times and I have NEVER seen A Black person (IRL) wearing stars and bars, much less "many".

Don't bother posting the picture of those few Black people in the t-shirts that popped up online...I am talking with my own eyes.

 

[metalslimer]

That's like saying if the majority no longer find the term redskin offensive Indians need to get the fuck over it. How does that make sense?


Edit: I've never seen one black person my entire life wearing the comfederate flag.

 

[LizardKing]

You need to educate yourself.

The Confederate Flag as we know it had no significance in the twentieth century until the Klan re-popularized it in the 1950s.

Yeah, it's not racist at all...

Jazz was created by the very black people they wanted to own. Yet they want to fly it under the confederate flag of "southern pride" lol.



lol. But if they do go and "educate themselves on the meaning of the flag" at that point wouldn't they be in the right to say the people saying it's about heritage and pride are the ones who need to "educate themselves"?

You guys are forgetting that the meaning of symbols change. I am talking about the meaning of the flag today. Not 150 or even 70 years ago.

 

[kswiston]

A decent number of people in the south take pride in being racist though.

 

[Angelus Errare]

The thing this survey leaves out is it can mean both things. Most things are not just black and white issues.

Pride in seceding and turning traitor to the Union to retain the right to own slaves is just romanticized way to say "it's about slavery".

 

[LizardKing]

That's like saying if the majority no longer find the term redskin offensive Indians need to get the fuck over it. How does that make sense?


Edit: I've never seen one black person my entire life wearing the comfederate flag.

If the majority of the people meant something endearing by the term redskin, then why would an indian view it as offensive?

 

[Zen_Arcade]

For those asking what exactly has the South to be proud of; what exactly does the North have to be proud of? What exactly has America to be proud of? What exactly has Canada to be proud of? What exactly has the UK to be proud of? What exactly has Europe to be proud of? Pretty much every country has done some vile shit in its history, that doesn't mean that that's the only thing that defines you and that you are forever not able to be proud about anything or anything to celebrate.

The South has things to be proud about, it's just that none of them are tied to the Confederate flag or the time that the Confederate flag was most important.

It would be like Germany keeping the Nazi flag around for decades after and using it as a point of pride because they probably have done a lot of worthwhile things in the decades since the Nazi's were wiped out. But those things they should be prideful in aren't manifested in the swastika in any way. That symbol was representative of what should be the most shameful part of Germany's history, and they would have been foolish to keep it around and try to attribute the good things they've done since then to a symbol that they used when they were trying to wipe an entire race off the Earth.

 

[J10]

You guys are forgetting that the meaning of symbols change. I am talking about the meaning of the flag today. Not 150 or even 70 years ago.

The meaning of this one hasn't changed yet. You might as well be Bruce Willis wearing a sign that says I HATE NIGGERS in the middle of Harlem if you're gonna fly that flag. It's not really up for discussion just because racists don't know that they're racist.

 

[Squalor]

You guys are forgetting that the meaning of symbols change. I am talking about the meaning of the flag today. Not 150 or even 70 years ago.

The KKK is holding a rally on July 18 to keep the flag on the capitol.

Yeah, the meaning today isn't racist at all...

You're clueless, man.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

That's like saying if the majority no longer find the term redskin offensive Indians need to get the fuck over it. How does that make sense?

Majority sets the standards for everyone else. That's part of privilege.

"Fuck you if you're offended...we have the numbers and we deem it non-offensive."

 

[lobdale]

The confederate flag: dumb white idiots love it!

 

[metalslimer]

If the majority of the people meant something endearing by the term redskin, then why would an indian view it as offensive?

I can't tell if you are serious with this. Are you saying that when the majority thought the word faggot was ok to use against gay people they should have gotten over it?

 

[Angelus Errare]

You guys are forgetting that the meaning of symbols change. I am talking about the meaning of the flag today. Not 150 or even 70 years ago.

You're the one who said people need to educate themselves. Explain how one "educates themselves" on the new meaning of the confederate flag without running into the giant elephant in the room that is slavery? Do we flip open a history book but don't go back in time beyond 1968?

 

[TheOohChild]

I still have no idea the south is even suppposed to be proud of

I don't think it is anything specific for a lot of people. I think it just a broad concept of regional pride. I have known people that were proud southerners for the simple fact that it is their home.

But it is an exception to the rule from my experience. The vast majority of people I have known who champion the flag have been racist.

 

[Hunter S.]

Pride in seceding and turning traitor to the Union to retain the right to own slaves is just romanticized way to say "it's about slavery".

I am not from the South. I see it in Colorado and think racist, but the only people who have it here are from the South. I do not understand, nor do I wish to.

 

[digita1alchemy]

...and generally speaking, the people you described above...what are their views on Black people?

Well, I knew plenty of flag-wearing rednecks that were racist and plenty that weren't. Not enough one way or the other to justify the generalization you're hinting at, which is why I posted what I did. The whole ordeal is probably an equal mix deliberate racism and willful ignorance.

I have been to the South many times and I have NEVER seen A Black person (IRL) wearing stars and bars, much less "many".

Don't bother posting the picture of those few Black people in the t-shirts that popped up online...I am talking with my own eyes.

I've seen a few. Did a double-take for sure.

 

[Angelus Errare]

I am not from the South. I see it in Colorado and think racist, but the only people who have it here are from the South. I do not understand, nor do I wish to.

I'm explaining there aren't two sides. Both groups are looking at the same side.

It's like a newspaper being viewed by two people, one group can't read and has bad vision and the other group can read and has 20/20 vision. The newspaper says one thing and one group can read it. The other group can't read it so they just make shit up. That doesn't make it a new side.

It's kind of like reality versus conservative's views of reality. There is only one reality no matter how much the other one denies it.

 

[Saint Gregory]

That's like saying if the majority no longer find the term redskin offensive Indians need to get the fuck over it. How does that make sense?

Have you visited the Washington DC metro area recently? I, ashamedly, was once one of the people that felt that way since I'm a fan of the team but I opened my eyes to the fact that I have no right to tell people what they should and shouldn't be offended by after getting into a FB argument with a diet racist insisting that racism is rare in the USA and he was better qualified than me to identify it because he has black nephews or something :/

 

[Leatherface]

It's not irrelevant. If the people who are using the flag truly believe it to be a symbol of southern pride and not of racism, it's everyone else who needs to educate themselves on the meaning of the flag. It only became a symbol of racism as the majority believed it was a symbol of racism. If that is no longer the case, and the majority believe it's not a symbol of racism, it's the minority who have to change their outdated views.

I'm a northerner so I am a little removed I suppose but I've always known the history of it and it isn't pretty. In my experience the lovely individuals waving this flag around have always been pretty ignorant. But don't just take my word for it. My GF is from Kentucky and she tells me that pretty much the only people proudly waving this around are basically racist. To everyone else it's kind of shameful. To better illustrate my point I will post a little something a good friend of mine born and raised in the south put up on facebook when this debate started flying around. She is very intelligent, well spoken and does a great job of putting this into perspective. Take it for what it's worth. Again, just an opinion, but from someone who grew up with it around.

"When I was growing up in Atlanta, the confederate flag was flown on the suped-up trucks of young white males blasting David Allen Coe, while they were out looking to beat up anyone different from them. It was a symbol adopted by people who were terribly threatened by anyone or anything that challenge their very narrow view of life. It was a symbol associated with idiocy. Not even the skinheads would touch that shit, for fear of being associated with the lowest of the low common denominator.

In 2003, Georgia changed it's flag and dumped the southern cross, although what it changed to is just a much subtler homage to it's confederate roots. Lawmakers patted themselves on the back for it, but attitudes didn't change. That's the way Atlanta has always been.

In my opinion, and that's all it is, the confederate flag has got a place in museums and history books, alongside other war-time artifacts. It's a part of mid century southern history, and can be found on items in flea markets and antique malls, that were products of their time. That's where it should stay.

Some folks see removing the flag as "denying heritage". Unless your heritage is denying that civil rights exist, that argument is invalid. I see finally taking those flags down as a sign that the south is willing to take some steps forward, and recognize that this is 2015, not 1954. The south is a much different place, full of all types of people, and it's about time the old white men in charge deal with it."

 

[Messofanego]

Its actually possible to have the opinion that the flag is merely a symbol of Southern pride without simultaneously holding explicit racist beliefs.

Its more complicated than that and its absurd to simply dumb down every argument like this.

Then explain.

 

[Hunter S.]

I'm explaining there aren't two sides. Both groups are looking at the same side.

It's like a newspaper being viewed by two people, one group can't read and has bad vision and the other group can read and has 20/20 vision. The newspaper says one thing and one group can read it. The other group can't read it so they just make shit up. That doesn't make it a new side.

It's kind of like reality versus conservative's views of reality. There is only one reality no matter how much the other one denies it.

Ok, well, I do not look at the world as having so many absolutes as you are describing.

 

[gutter_trash]

You need to educate yourself.

The Confederate Flag as we know it had no significance in the twentieth century until the Klan re-popularized it in the 1950s.

Yeah, it's not racist at all...

Some states re integrated into their State flags in protest against desegregation of the Armed Forces, against desegregation of schools and against the Civil Rights Movement.


The re-apropiation was not soley by the KKK.
Many Southern states apropriated its symbols in opposition to Civil Rights and desegregation.

So in the context of the mid 20th century, the flag is racist

 

[Mumei]

This is unsurprising; sectional reconciliation was tacitly predicated on the acceptance of not talking about the causes of the war or the different sides, but focusing on and celebrating the valor of individual soldiers. It's been this way since a few decades after the end of the war, and so it is unsurprising that by extension white Americans (which is what that reconciliation was about) would not understand exactly what sort of heritage the flag is connected to.

There was an excellent article in The Atlantic in April by David Blight, The Civil War Isn't Over:

Over time, the Civil War became the subject of great romanticization and sentimentalism in cultural memory. For veteran soldiers on both sides, reconciliation required time and the pressure of political imperatives imposed by the larger society on them and on the conflict’s memory. In the wake of this war, Americans faced a profound and all but impossible challenge of achieving two deeply contradictory goals—healing and justice. Healing took generations in many families, if it ever came at all. Justice was fiercely contested. It was not the same proposition for the freedmen and their children as it was for white Southerners, in the wake of their military, economic and psychological defeat. And in America, as much as it sometimes astonishes foreigners, the defeated in this civil war eventually came to control large elements of the event’s meaning, legacies, and policy implications, a reality wracked with irony and driven by the nation’s persistence racism.

And the ability of the South to win the peace is why the majority doesn't recognize the Confederate battle flag as a symbol of racism.

 

[SliceSabre]

White Americans support a racist symbol of their past? Color be surprised.


Not.

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

everyone knows Pride is devil sin from the pits of hell

 

[morikaze]

The thing this survey leaves out is it can mean both things. Most things are not just black and white issues.

DING DING DING. Personally though I believe that it is used overall as more of a icon of southern pride, of course that doesn't mean that large majority of people who wave the confederate flag around aren't ignorant racist fucks.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Ok, well, I do not look at the world as having so many absolutes as you are describing.

In the context of the confederate flag, there is unarguably only one absolute. You can post hundreds of romanticized renditions of why the Civil War happened but we have an absolute truth by virtue of declaration of secession articles, and penned essays by members of both armies as to why the fight happened.

Sorry but romanticizing history doesn't count as a "new side". All it is are a bunch of uneducated assholes who are in denial about the country (or uncomfortable).

Like if people start romanticizing Hitler and making up a bunch of nonsense are you going to argue that hey man...there were many sides/views to the Holocaust and that it wasn't black and white?

Cause the Holocaust and Hitler's role were pretty damn black and white.

 

[LizardKing]

The meaning of this one hasn't changed yet. You might as well be Bruce Willis wearing a sign that says I HATE NIGGERS in the middle of Harlem if you're gonna fly that flag. It's not really up for discussion just because racists don't know that they're racist.

This poll is suggesting that the meaning has changed to the majority of people. I am not saying I agree with the poll, but if it's right then there is argument the meaning has changed. Maybe not to you, but that would make you part of the problem in that scenario.

The KKK is holding a rally on July 18 to keep the flag on the capitol.

Yeah, the meaning today isn't racist at all...

You're clueless, man.

So the KKK probably has no affinity for "southern pride" in addition to racism. Are you in the KKK so you can tell me their intent with the flag? Even if they do view it as a racist/white superiority symbol, that doesn't mean that is what the majority of people who use the flag see it as. It does mean that it is viewed as a racist symbol to SOME people (obviously), then the discussion becomes if we should let a minority view of a symbol change our policy of that symbol or if the minority should accept the new majority definition of the symbol.

I can't tell if you are serious with this. Are you saying that when the majority thought the word faggot was ok to use against gay people they should have gotten over it?

The majority of people used the word faggot as offensive. And still do. I don't think it's ok to have offensive intent towards people. So no I don't think they should have gotten over it. This is saying the majority of people are NOT using the flag as a reason to offend.

You're the one who said people need to educate themselves. Explain how one "educates themselves" on the new meaning of the confederate flag without running into the giant elephant in the room that is slavery? Do we flip open a history book but don't go back in time beyond 1968?

The meaning of the flag today. Pretty simple.


To be clear, I'm not saying the majority of the people don't think it's racist, but this poll is. Some people say anecdotally that southerners display it in a racist way. I don't know what is the true case, I don't know. I'm only arguing in the case that it is the former. If the people using it are using it with racist intent today then I do not support that.

 

[Slayven]

Some states re integrated into their State flags in protest against desegregation of the Armed Forces, against desegregation of schools and against the Civil Rights Movement.


The re-apropiation was not soley by the KKK.
Many Southern states apropriated its symbols in opposition to Civil Rights and desegregation.

So in the context of the mid 20th century, the flag is racist

Seriously, google George Wallace people, he loved the flag.

 

[AgentP]

People in the south aren't proud of being racist. They are proud of rebuilding after the civil war.

It's just a shame they didn't make a new flag to honor the occasion.

They were forced to rebuild with soldiers in blue uniforms standing by. And this was the time the KKK came to power.

 

[Angelus Errare]

The meaning of the flag today. Pretty simple.

This makes no damn sense. A crucial part of education is understanding the origins of anything. By telling someone to go get "educated" you are by proxy telling them to look up the history. Yet you're basically arguing that they should divorce themselves from the history. Might as rewrite history at that point and present it as truth.

So I have to ask you, how far back do you go? Do you ignore any time your research shows the flag being used in racist context?

If so you're no longer being "educated" you're being "selective".

I mean for fuck sakes, how can anyone argue it's about heritage, specifically in the case of the flag flying at South Carolina's state house, when it was put up there in 1962 specifically to oppose integration.

It's really hard to say it's about heritage when every time you view it through a lens it's been used to promote racism.

 

[Slayven]

This makes no damn sense. A crucial part of education is understanding the origins of anything. By telling someone to go get "educated" you are by proxy telling them to look up the history. Yet you're basically arguing that they should divorce themselves from the history. Might as rewrite history at that point and present it as truth.

So I have to ask you, how far back do you go? Do you ignore any time your research shows the flag being used in racist context?

If so you're no longer being "educated" you're being "selective".

 

[Blader]

If the majority of the people meant something endearing by the term redskin, then why would an indian view it as offensive?

What's an endearing use of the word redskin?

You seem to be missing the fact that (most) racists aren't going to self-identity as racists. So of course the vast majority, if not the entirety, of people who wave the Confederate flag see it as a symbol of Southern pride rather than racism. Why they would ever, knowingly or willingly, admit to others or themselves that their flag is a racist symbol? When does a racist ever own up to being a racist?

 

[SpiralZilla]

What part of the country was this poll taken?

My first thought.

 

[gutter_trash]

Seriously, google George Wallace people, he loved the flag.

What a piece of work this guy.

 

[LizardKing]

This makes no damn sense. A crucial part of education is understanding the origins of anything. By telling someone to go get "educated" you are by proxy telling them to look up the history. Yet you're basically arguing that they should divorce themselves from the history. Might as rewrite history at that point and present it as truth.

So I have to ask you, how far back do you go? Do you ignore any time your research shows the flag being used in racist context?

If so you're no longer being "educated" you're being "selective".

Living in the western world today, if I were to put the swastika on my clothes or show the symbol somewhere, I would be looked at as a Nazi, white supremacist etc. I would be looked down upon. But, if you were educated about the swastika you would know it's been used for centuries in Asia for entirely good reasons. So does that mean that I don't have any ill intent by wearing the swastika today, because it's origins were peaceful?

 

[CrazyDude]

Can't wait to see Nazi flags being used as a sign of German heritage.

 

[Squalor]

So the KKK probably has no affinity for "southern pride" in addition to racism. Are you in the KKK so you can tell me their intent with the flag? Even if they do view it as a racist/white superiority symbol, that doesn't mean that is what the majority of people who use the flag see it as. It does mean that it is viewed as a racist symbol to SOME people (obviously), then the discussion becomes if we should let a minority view of a symbol change our policy of that symbol or if the minority should accept the new majority definition of the symbol.

What minority and majority are you talking about? You mean from some straw poll done midday on a weekday?

Plus the poll states nothing about where the calls where made to, i.e., a majority of the calls could have been made to southern states.

This has nothing to do with majority or minority. This has to do with the fact that the flag's history is racist, and using it today still means it represents a symbol of racism.

Not only that, but as I pointed out in my first post in here, there are a ton of people who have racist beliefs, yet don't identify themselves as racists even though a level-headed person would know that person was racist. Of course these kinds of people wouldn't identify the flag as racist when they don't even identify themselves as racists.

But there's no getting you to understand that. You've turned yourself into a pretzel.

 

[metalslimer]

Can't wait to see Nazi flags being used as a sign of German heritage.

No because Germany was smart enough to shut that shit down hard

 

[Battersea Power Station]

As someone who is outraged by the treatment of black Americans in today's modern world, I don't find these poll results to be as bad as they sound.

Firstly, if something is a symbol, the people imbue it with meaning. So if some percentage of the majority mentioned in the OP truly view it as a symbol of pride and are not hiding they're racism, the others are correct: to that first group, the flag really is a symbol of pride. (I should add that either way the flag has no place on government property.)

Secondly, many people are just not educated on the true nature of the Civil War. I know I was not, despite going to a great high school. We just had a thread yesterday on how its history had been whitewashed into a narrative about states' rights.

 

[Blader]

What a piece of work this guy.

In his defense, he did a complete 180 later in life.

 

[Lil'DigiOp]

If the flag is not racist, why the fuck would a guy kill 9 innocent black people in a church after posing with the flag on social media....

thus starting this whole debate in the first place....


Some of you people piss me off. This isn't up for debate honestly. People know damn well the flag is synonymous with the term White Supremacy.

 

[CrazyDude]

Living in the western world today, if I were to put the swastika on my clothes or show the symbol somewhere, I would be looked at as a Nazi, white supremacist etc. I would be looked down upon. But, if you were educated about the swastika you would know it's been used for centuries in Asia for entirely good reasons. So does that mean that I don't have any ill intent by wearing the swastika today, because it's origins were peaceful?

Except there are differences between the two swastikas.

 

[Hunter S.]

In the context of the confederate flag, there is unarguably only one absolute. You can post hundreds of romanticized renditions of why the Civil War happened but we have an absolute truth by virtue of declaration of secession articles, and penned essays by members of both armies as to why the fight happened.

Sorry but romanticizing history doesn't count as a "new side". All it is are a bunch of uneducated assholes who are in denial about the country (or uncomfortable).

Like if people start romanticizing Hitler and making up a bunch of nonsense are you going to argue that hey man...there were many sides/views to the Holocaust and that it wasn't black and white?

Cause the Holocaust and Hitler's role were pretty damn black and white.

Absolute literally means only one view is possible/correct , so your wording is redundant.

 

[danwarb]

Nah, I refuse to believe that the majority could be wrong on something. The numbers must be off somewhere.

The KKK have also said they're not a hate group or racist in the past.

 

[LizardKing]

Except there are differences between the two swastikas.

You're right that probably wasn't the origin of the swastika....

 

[Squalor]

The KKK have also said they're not a hate group or racist in the past.

Plenty of racists say that all the time, haha.

 

[Kusagari]

The flag they're associating with "Southern Pride" is a flag of racism.

Thus, they're associating their pride to be Southern as pride of being racist and viewing blacks as property.