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School Told to Call Kids Purple Penguins Because Boys and Girls Is Not Inclusive
- Thread starter benjipwns
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Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
National Review is right-wing stuff along the lines of Fox News. It's upsetting that people are falling for it and siding with it. It's purposely trying to paint the whole situation in a "can you believe this shit" light.
EndlessSky
Member
If this is a serious post, then I would reply saying that changing the words isn't the answer to the problem. We should change those expectations rather than change what we call people.
What is this supposed to get me to acknowledge? That transgendered/intersex people exist? That's a known fact. What YOU have yet to acknowledge is that there are people who are not transgendered.
Huh? People being wrong a few times vs. all of the other times they were correct invalidates all of the times they were correct?
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Those people aren't negatively impacted in any way by this.
PrivateWHudson
Member
I'm sure this has been mentioned, but will my kids be part of the first generation to have co-ed showers?
Kano on the Phone
Member
To the people getting hurt by it it means a lot. You said it was false based on some infrequency of transgender people that you incorrectly imagined, and you're wrong. If your new argument is "I just don't care," then fine, I can't argue you into being thoughtful.
Do you rationally imagine that this will happen rather than a shift away from group showers entirely?
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
Why would there be a shift away from group showers? They're that way for practical and financial reasons...Unless, I'm completely misunderstanding what you're saying, I don't see it becoming cheaper to install separate shower stalls in every bathroom with showers
PrivateWHudson
Member
Robo Cop and Starship Troopers told me this was our future. I'm okay with it.
Kano on the Phone
Member
I personally think that even separate group showers are weird. Any situation where an adult is watching a lot of kids shower is inherently bizarre.
ExplodingKetchup
Member
Talk to your kids and ask them how they feel about their gender? Kids are actually more in touch with their identities than you think. Whatever they say is how many boys and girls you have. It's not that difficult.
googleplex
Member
Except it really isn't
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
From my reading of this, a kid saying "I like trucks and construction and football the same as other boys" should be confronted by the teacher who should explain to them why they are wrong and that the teacher sees it differently.
Bulbo Urethral Baggins
Banned
You have 3 purple penguins
PrivateWHudson
Member
Probably, but I think we're too hung up on naked bits. If we're going down the road where kids can't identify as a gender and can't group as "boys" and "girls", then why do we stumble on something that's much less of a mind bender like seeing someone's skin?
My kids will run around swinging their junk everywhere if I let them, and I have to brainwash them into feeling shameful of those parts and hide it. Yet if they felt like they were wired as a girl with boy parts, transgender advocates would say that I should embrace that and not encourage them to hide it.
I'm okay with both, hence why I only care on the surface that they keep their pants on, but deep down I really don't care at all who sees them naked.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Read the document in the OP. I get the feeling very few people expressing very strong opinions in here have done this. I think you'll find they're thinking more like you than this right-wing site's story has led you to believe.
Kano on the Phone
Member
You got that from:
?
I agree with that too. My argument revolves more around them showering openly with an adult standing there staring at them than their peers. And of course just wanting to keep kids of all genders from sexing each other within school walls.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
This was kind of my thought on it. If the kids ask about gender is the teacher not allowed to comment on it or talk? I don't see how this doesn't overall lead to more confusion. Different genders can have the same interests. The fact that they're different genders doesn't prevent that, so the fact that they acknowledge as different genders shouldn't make a difference.
When I asked the need to have kids split by gender, numerous people in here commented it was done as an attempt to mix girls and boys to combat the natural segregation that seemed to occur. If this is already occurring as young as that age, then it's pretty obvious these kids are already fully aware of gender, even if it's only on a subconscious level, and this seems like it would only confuse things. Especially if the teacher couldn't comment on any gender related questions.
I feel like this is...not the way to go. Kids are going to say whatever they want to. They're not going to understand the question is serious
When they ask you what is a boy and what is a girl, what would you say then?
I really don't know why I'm even responding to you. I used to teach and interacted with a variety of kids from all walks of life, whether they were boys, girls, handicapped (mentally or physically), transgendered, gay, bisexual, black, white, etc. And you throwing some links at me making insinuations, telling me about how I'm wrong, or telling me about how I don't care is pretty insulting.
And you know that "magic" you were referring to when talking about how a person can identify a transgendered individual? Well, it's that same "magic" that parents/siblings have when their son/daughter/sibling comes out to them, yet they already knew. When you're actually interacting with different people on a daily basis (and it's not just a "hi" and "bye"), you learn things. Everyone is unique, and you pick up on these things. I don't just read about it on the Internet.
So excuse me for using my actual experience around kids to make a point about kids.
I don't understand the issue with using 'boys and girls' or referring to someone as him or her? I don't think this is about people who consider themselves to be truly asexual, and every instance I've seen of a TS/TG/CD/intersex person, that person has identified with one sex or the other, regardless of their chromosomal makeup.
Essentially, I'd think the discussion should be more about understanding the individual, and whether they're more comfortable responding to 'boy' or 'girl'.
Essentially, I'd think the discussion should be more about understanding the individual, and whether they're more comfortable responding to 'boy' or 'girl'.
This is a classic example of National Review/Fox News taking stuff out of context, twisting phrases, and spinning it to their agenda.
That being said, I don't think some of the suggestions they cherry-picked are practical to use in a classroom. I'm sure some of the other training was more worthwhile or was targeted to certain situations.
That being said, I don't think some of the suggestions they cherry-picked are practical to use in a classroom. I'm sure some of the other training was more worthwhile or was targeted to certain situations.
Kano on the Phone
Member
The entire point I was responding to initially was you describing using gender pronouns to someone you don't know (hey little boy) so not only are you wrong, but you're moving the goal posts.
But you don't always know what a transgender person has identified as. If they've told you "I identify as a girl" then it's ok. This is all about making assumptions and teaching kids to be more open minded, or rather keeping them open minded.
PrivateWHudson
Member
I would hope the added exposure would reduce sexing in the showers over time, but there may be some issues in the beginning when it's all new and exiting. I'm most likely in the minority, but I don't really think that would be much of a problem. I'm sure any teacher that showed signs of being a complete perv would be called out on it pretty quickly. I can't bother to concern myself with anyone that politely keeps there perversions to themselves.
Anyway, we should start with the military first and see how that goes. If anyone should be treated as a gender less clump of clay ready for molding, it's them.
My kid thinks he is a robot. I'm not going to really trust his opinion on most things.
Kano on the Phone
Member
With you a hundred percent. I had a teacher that was a dirty lecher and didn't get called out for years, so some of my opinion on the subject might be colored by that.
I kind of agree with this. I mean I'm 100% there in the fight for people's equality and protection regardless of identity or orientation... but this move some of the more extreme elements of the liberal movement
(which again, I would want to feel a part of)
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Yes? Maybe I am just not understanding what they are trying to say.
What exactly would be an expression that references gender in a binary manner?
JJDinomite
Banned
Are you actually trying to imply that gender exists? It's 2014, dude...
Some of you guys are saying they are trying to get rid of gender altogether. Like??? Please read the (incredibly biased) article. They are trying to create an inclusive environment which includes everybody. They are NOT denying anyone's gender, they are allowing students to identify themselves.
As it says in the article:
"The teachers were also given a handout created by the Center for Gender Sanity, which explains to them that 'Gender identity . . . cant be observed or measured, only reported by the individual.'"
That being said, Purple Penguins is a fucking stupid sounding name.
As it says in the article:
"The teachers were also given a handout created by the Center for Gender Sanity, which explains to them that 'Gender identity . . . cant be observed or measured, only reported by the individual.'"
That being said, Purple Penguins is a fucking stupid sounding name.
A big part of the problem, however, is that gender is not binary.
I am personally sitting somewhere in the middle of the gender spectrum and don't feel comfortable referring to myself as a boy or a girl. (This especially complicates things because I possess some degree of body dysphoria, but do not identify heavily as a woman, which is the default assumption people make about MtF transexuals.) People like me are indeed quite rare, but we exist, and I don't know how many people like me are out there that have simply been conditioned to think of things from the perspective of 'are you a boy, or a girl?'.
If we change the very basis upon which our children think about gender, we may learn that more of them lie outside of that binary than we thought.
I moved the goal post to kick through your strawman about me "not caring"
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Well said!
The Librarian
Banned
This doesn't make any sense to me personally and seems out to solve a non-problem.
Plus "purple penguins" sounds silly.
Plus "purple penguins" sounds silly.
Kano on the Phone
Member
Like if a kid says "trucks are for boys," the teacher is encouraged to ask them what makes them say that and to say something like "but can't anyone enjoy a truck? I saw Janie happily playing with a truck earlier."
You're willing to be potentially shitty to someone you don't know because you can't not use a gendered pronoun, which was the entire point of the conversation. I can't keep doing this thing where you ignore the conversation in favor of only the last thing I said, I'm sorry, you're just going to have to take the L on this one.
I don't mean anything personal or anything, you're just wrong on this one and you keep dancing around it and it isn't going anywhere.
First, people make incorrect assumptions all the time, about trivial things, and about major things. We simply correct them and move on.
Second, it is rare that a transgendered person doesn't give some indication of which sex they identify with. This is how human interaction works. The way we look, dress, carry ourselves, speak...all of it delivers information about us to others. Now, in the case of kids, yes that sort of personal expression is not fully developed, mostly because our identities aren't fully developed (also because it's often stifled by home, but that's a different issue entirely).
Kano on the Phone
Member
But why not teach kids to avoid those assumptions entirely? Just because something happens doesn't mean it has to continue happening. The argument against this just has no merit to me because it isn't that difficult to just be more thoughtful. There's zero downside to just avoiding using gendered pronouns.
People call me Mrs. Evans all the damn time because my 1st name is more popular with females. Thats not being shitty to someone, thats an honest mistake based on assumptions.
Being shitty would be using the wrong pronoun after I corrected them.
But here you're talking about a complete change in the basic structure of our language, which, frankly, isn't a realistic option. Even if gender is regarded as a spectrum, there's still a male end and a female end..."him" and "her" are an indication of which side of the spectrum one might fall, not to which end they get pushed.
Ultimadrago
Member
Purple Penguin -> P.P. -> Pee Pee -> Penis -> Phallic Symbolism -> Male Dominance
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
I'll be honest. I and I assume most people just don't know enough about this to even participate knowledgeably in a debate. And some of us aren't able to communicate it in such a way that doesn't provoke a hostile response.
I was raised as a child on sex and gender being synonymous. Both in school and from my family. The old "Boys have penises, Girls have Vaginas."
A person born with both sexual organs? I was taught, in school and socially, that this was like myself being born with Muscular Dystrophy. It happens, it's outside the norm, and thus is not "normal" for a human being. Unlike Muscular Dystrophy, it can be more..."dealt with", to lack a better term and obviously nowadays we're much better in handling it than before.
That being said, my being born with Muscular Dystrophy is not something that's "a good thing". Most of the kids I was segregated with in school (yes, that used to be policy..they kept us away, despite our mental faculties being normal) who also had disabilities are now dead these 30 some years later. My body, quite visibly to my chagrin and luck with the (biologically) Ladies, is broken.
And that's why I'm honestly requesting education. MY body is broken. I acknowledge this. I doubt anyone would truly reject that idea. I'm not saying I don't want to be treated normally, I do. Discrimination is bad, mmkay
. However, I am not the equal of a normal man, physically. I never will be.
What makes it so that, if someone is born with all of the organs of a male, but their mind / soul / what have you is insisting they're female....why is that not also medically different like me? Why is that, instead, a social issue? And this is under the assumption that past items I've read say there are differences in the brain, so if that's off please correct me.
And make no mistake, I'm not against all of the rights issues. I'm right there with you. I despise discrimination....but it just strikes me as odd as to what gets chosen as medical as opposed to self-determination, especially if the person is born with all the organs of one sex or another.
I am not being an ass, btw, can prove I have M.D. I just am genuinely wanting to know more.
I was raised as a child on sex and gender being synonymous. Both in school and from my family. The old "Boys have penises, Girls have Vaginas."
A person born with both sexual organs? I was taught, in school and socially, that this was like myself being born with Muscular Dystrophy. It happens, it's outside the norm, and thus is not "normal" for a human being. Unlike Muscular Dystrophy, it can be more..."dealt with", to lack a better term and obviously nowadays we're much better in handling it than before.
That being said, my being born with Muscular Dystrophy is not something that's "a good thing". Most of the kids I was segregated with in school (yes, that used to be policy..they kept us away, despite our mental faculties being normal) who also had disabilities are now dead these 30 some years later. My body, quite visibly to my chagrin and luck with the (biologically) Ladies, is broken.
And that's why I'm honestly requesting education. MY body is broken. I acknowledge this. I doubt anyone would truly reject that idea. I'm not saying I don't want to be treated normally, I do. Discrimination is bad, mmkay
. However, I am not the equal of a normal man, physically. I never will be.What makes it so that, if someone is born with all of the organs of a male, but their mind / soul / what have you is insisting they're female....why is that not also medically different like me? Why is that, instead, a social issue? And this is under the assumption that past items I've read say there are differences in the brain, so if that's off please correct me.
And make no mistake, I'm not against all of the rights issues. I'm right there with you. I despise discrimination....but it just strikes me as odd as to what gets chosen as medical as opposed to self-determination, especially if the person is born with all the organs of one sex or another.
I am not being an ass, btw, can prove I have M.D. I just am genuinely wanting to know more.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Yes, this is usually how interactions go right now with trans people.
See part 1. We do deliver that information, but it's on the perspective and experience of the receiver to make a judgment call, and updates to school guidelines like this helps to inform open-mindedness. In the end, hopefully people will become more accepting of how others perceive themselves, whether it comes in the form of asking what they prefer from the beginning, or from being corrected and respecting that.
Kano on the Phone
Member
But some people are hurt by it and a false assumption is shitty to them, so what's the downside to avoiding the assumption?
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