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[The Librarian]

First, people make incorrect assumptions all the time, about trivial things, and about major things. We simply correct them and move on.

Second, it is rare that a transgendered person doesn't give some indication of which sex they identify with. This is how human interaction works. The way we look, dress, carry ourselves, speak...all of it delivers information about us to others. Now, in the case of kids, yes that sort of personal expression is not fully developed, mostly because our identities aren't fully developed (also because it's often stifled by home, but that's a different issue entirely).

Transgender people can still dress up and be mistaken for their identified gender (or lack thereof). Work environments, for example.

 

[DeadNames]

What about this leads you to believe it will make kids less inclusive and not more?

Because what happens when they start calling other people "purple penguins"? This shit will make these poor kids have a very warped view of the world. Once they get out of their penguin tribe, they will have no idea how to react to "boys" and "girls".

And by the way, can someone explain to me why the fuck "boy" and "girl" is politically incorrect?

 

[MIMIC]

You're willing to be potentially shitty to someone you don't know because you can't not use a gendered pronoun, which was the entire point of the conversation. I can't keep doing this thing where you ignore the conversation in favor of only the last thing I said, I'm sorry, you're just going to have to take the L on this one.

You really need to stop exaggerating. People make mistakes. If I want to get the attention of the boy who is among the group of girls, and I refer to him as a boy based upon a reasonable observation, then that's perfectly fine.

I've done it....countless times. And guess what else? I was right that he was a boy and identified as a boy. I wouldn't use a gendered pronoun unless I was sure. And on the off-chance I was wrong, I'd apologize. Kids aren't as emotionally unstable as you make them out to be. It's when they're taunted or reinforced with idea that they're not normal is what's the "shitty" part.

There is nothing shitty about an honest mistake.

 

[KmA]

First, people make incorrect assumptions all the time, about trivial things, and about major things. We simply correct them and move on.

Second, it is rare that a transgendered person doesn't give some indication of which sex they identify with. This is how human interaction works. The way we look, dress, carry ourselves, speak...all of it delivers information about us to others. Now, in the case of kids, yes that sort of personal expression is not fully developed, mostly because our identities aren't fully developed (also because it's often stifled by home, but that's a different issue entirely).

So you're argument is basically that people make assumptions deal with it? Ok.

And generally, when dealing with gender it's rare that "we simply correct them and move on." Because of these deeply held assumptions, it has real world consequences that often result in bullying, harassment, and even violence.

We should move away from that frame of mind and start teaching kids to not make assumptions in the first place. Why is it a bad thing to be more inclusive? And some kids have very expressive identities and some don't. Some have very strong ideas of how they see themselves and some don't. Some don't fall on the gender binary and some do. We have to be as inclusive as possible regardless.

 

[The Librarian]

You really need to stop exaggerating. People make mistakes. If I want to get the attention of the boy who is among the group of girls, and I refer to him as a boy based upon a reasonable observation, then that's perfectly fine.

I've done it....countless times. And guess what else? I was right that he was a boy and identified as a boy. I wouldn't use a gendered pronoun unless I was sure. And on the off-chance I was wrong, I'd apologize. Kids aren't as emotionally unstable as you make them out to be. It's when they're taunted or reinforced with idea that they're not normal is what's the "shitty" part.

There is nothing shitty about an honest mistake.

Doesn't mean it'll happen all the time.

 

[DeadNames]

Doesn't mean it'll happen all the time.

So if he was wrong, he'd made an honest mistake? People make mistakes.

More news at 11.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

Because what happens when they start calling other people "purple penguins"? This shit will make these poor kids have a very warped view of the world. Once they get out of their penguin tribe, they will have no idea how to react to "boys" and "girls".

And by the way, can someone explain to me why the fuck "boy" and "girl" is politically incorrect?

It's just a name for the collective. They aren't being taught that all people are Purple Penguins. This sounds like the sort of false alarm the National Review article wanted to create but doesn't exist in any rational appraisal of the actual situation.

So if he was wrong, he'd made an honest mistake? People make mistakes.

More news at 11.

"Mistakes happen" is the laziest excuse I can think of for not trying to prevent them.

 

[lexi]

Several pages later you guys have really taken the 'purple penguins' example provided as a class name and fucking ran with it.

 

[DeadNames]

It's just a name for the collective. They aren't being taught that all people are Purple Penguins. This sounds like the sort of false alarm the National Review article wanted to create but doesn't exist in any rational appraisal of the actual situation.

So they're growing up believing that they're special snowflakes because they're purple penguins and other children are boys and girls? This is causing more harm than good.

"Mistakes happen" is the laziest excuse I can think of for not trying to prevent them.

What happens if someone makes an honest mistake, though?

 

[Kano on the Phone]

So they're growing up believing that they're special snowflakes because they're purple penguins and other children are boys and girls? This is causing more harm than good.

Here's the document. There's no point in arguing over it when you haven't read it. You're mad at a headline.

What happens if someone makes an honest mistake, though?

If someone explains to you that calling someone by the wrong gender is hurtful, which they have, and you still insist on using gendered pronouns to people that you don't know, then it's no longer an honest mistake.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Several pages later you guys have really taken the 'purple penguins' example provided as a class name and fucking ran with it.

They waddled with it

 

[Sub_Level]

We should all address each other as the letter Z pronoun.

Z wore the purple dress to the prom with zor similarly dressed zorfriends.

Z had a beer with zor parent unit while fixing up zor car.

 

[Teremap]

Well said!

Thanks! :3

But here you're talking about a complete change in the basic structure of our language, which, frankly, isn't a realistic option. Even if gender is regarded as a spectrum, there's still a male end and a female end..."him" and "her" are an indication of which side of the spectrum one might fall, not to which end they get pushed.

True, but it's still worth giving it a shot. If we have to invent a new series of pronouns for androgynous or genderqueer individuals then that's what we have to do.

Because what happens when they start calling other people "purple penguins"? This shit will make these poor kids have a very warped view of the world. Once they get out of their penguin tribe, they will have no idea how to react to "boys" and "girls".

And by the way, can someone explain to me why the fuck "boy" and "girl" is politically incorrect?

Oh, please. They'll learn all they need to learn from sex ed (assuming they pay attention, anyway).

'Boy' and 'girl' are completely unnecessary to use when referring to pre-pubescent children, as they are effectively blank slates at that age. Sex differences don't actually become a thing until they hit puberty; before that, the ONLY difference between male and female children is their genitals. That's it. That's the only difference.

Gender is far more fluid than that, and it's about time that we recognized that as a fact.

We should all address each other as the letter Z pronoun.

Z wore the purple dress to the prom with zor similarly dressed zorfriends.

Z had a beer with zor parent unit while fixing up zor car.

...I like this.

I like this a lot.

 

[The Librarian]

So if he was wrong, he'd made an honest mistake? People make mistakes.

More news at 11.

You know what's annoying?

"Hi, Lily...yeah...so what guys do you find cute?" "Do you have a boyfriend?"

Just because it's an honest mistake doesn't mean you should make assumptions. I hate it when people make assumptions about my sexuality.

 

[DeadNames]

If someone explains to you that calling someone by the wrong gender is hurtful, which they have, and you still insist on using gendered pronouns to people that you don't know, then it's no longer an honest mistake.

"Hey you, person with x colored hair, wearing y colored shirt, with z colored eyes, come here"

And can someone PLEASE tell me why it's wrong to say "boy" and "girl".

 

[Flo_Evans]

But some people are hurt by it and a false assumption is shitty to them, so what's the downside to avoiding the assumption?

Because its part of our langue/culture? When teaching kids how to interact and address other humans mr/mrs/he/her is how it is done? AFAIK there is really no agreed upon gender neutral language standard?

Like how would I make this statement:

"My kid thinks he is a robot, I don't trust his opinions on anything."

vs.

"My kid thinks its a robot, I don't trust its opinions on anything."

I am pretty offended when someone uses an object pronoun to refer to a human. esp. my little human. Its rude.

Its like you are trying to rewrite manners but the solution is worse.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

"Hey you, person with x colored hair, wearing y colored shirt, with z colored eyes, come here"

And can someone PLEASE tell me why it's wrong to say "boy" and "girl".

People keep bringing this up as an example like they're always faced with having to beckon strangers.

No one has ever said it's wrong to say boy or girl.

Because its part of our langue/culture? When teaching kids how to interact and address other humans mr/mrs/he/her is how it is done? AFAIK there is really no agreed upon gender neutral language standard?

Like how would I make this statement:

"My kid thinks he is a robot, I don't trust his opinions on anything."

vs.

"My kid thinks its a robot, I don't trust its opinions on anything."

I am pretty offended when someone uses an object pronoun to refer to a human. esp. my little human. Its rude.

Its like you are trying to rewrite manners but the solution is worse.

Who said you can't call your kid what you want to? This is an imaginary argument you're having. Calling someone a "negro" child was part of our language and culture once too, so I never understand that defense.

 

[Simply Sarah]

Several pages later you guys have really taken the 'purple penguins' example provided as a class name and fucking ran with it.

It's easier to tear down straw penguins than worry about anything more nuanced..

 

[RustyNails]

If someone explains to you that calling someone by the wrong gender is hurtful, which they have, and you still insist on using gendered pronouns to people that you don't know, then it's no longer an honest mistake.

Why use genders at all then when there is always a probability to get one wrong?

 

[Basketball]

What is this, Legends of the Hidden Temple?

 

[JJDinomite]

We need a different term than "humans" for us otherkin.

 

[Walshicus]

Doesn't mean it'll happen all the time.

Perhaps, but it's surely unreasonable to expect people to proactively account for situations that are extremely, extremely rare. I mean I don't greet people in English and Welsh because it's so insanely unlikely that the person I'm speaking to is an exclusive Welsh speaker.

 

[DeadNames]

People keep bringing this up as an example like they're always faced with having to beckon strangers.

No one has ever said it's wrong to say boy or girl.

Pray tell- what should we refer to our fellow humans as?

Humans? Person? Being? Entity? Creature??

 

[zruben]

Why not just say "people", "everyone", "everybody", etc?

well, it was just an example. The idea is to give the kids cute and cool nicknames.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Pray tell- what should we refer to our fellow humans as?

Humans? Person? Being? Entity? Creature??

Whatever they want to be called. Like we do right now.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

Why use genders at all then when there is always a probability to get one wrong?

I'm not sure what you're asking. There's never a need to use gendered language to a stranger than I can think of.

Pray tell- what should we refer to our fellow humans as?

Humans? Person? Being? Entity? Creature??

How often do you find you have to use gender specific language with people you don't know? You're upset over this but I really can't see a situation where it's necessary. "Excuse me, ma'am" is no better than just "excuse me."

 

[Teremap]

You know what's annoying?

"Hi, Lily...yeah...so what guys do you find cute?" "Do you have a boyfriend?"

Just because it's an honest mistake doesn't mean you should make assumptions. I hate it when people make assumptions about my sexuality.

This. It's super-annoying. If I hang out with my co-workers and everyone looks at me and asks me if I find that chick hot it gets really awkward after the umpteenth time. Furthermore, it's not like I can just tell them "no, I prefer androgynous people" without people looking at me weird and inquiring further, which I am really not very interested in getting into very often.

If I respond with an awkward 'ehhh' you should take the hint already, sheesh.

 

[The Librarian]

Perhaps, but it's surely unreasonable to expect people to proactively account for situations that are extremely, extremely rare. I mean I don't greet people in English and Welsh because it's so insanely unlikely that the person I'm speaking to is an exclusive Welsh speaker.

I see where you're coming from, but he was saying that he's never been wrong so far, so he is right in doing that. That's what I was taking issue with.

I understand people mixing up while trying to be respectful when it comes to people's gender, but there are some assumptions you shouldn't make. Like someone's sexuality.

 

[Flo_Evans]

Who said you can't call your kid what you want to? This is an imaginary argument you're having. Calling someone a "negro" child was part of our language and culture once too, so I never understand that defense.

I thought we were talking about referring to other people? I call my kid by his name, but when referencing him to other people I use he/him.

I am asking you what gender neutral pronoun you would use in that situation?

AFAIK there is not one.

If you are trying to change the language you need a better alternative IMHO, nonsense like purple penguins can work in in a small structured environment like the classroom, but what about reality?

 

[Lothar]

To anyone who doesn't think a boy is someone with a penis and a girl is someone with a vagina, what in your mind is a boy or girl? If your kids ask you, what will you say? I'm really curious.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/boy?s=t
boy
noun
1.
a male child, from birth to full growth, especially one less than 18 years of age.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/male?s=ts
male
noun
1.
a person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence; a boy or man.
2.
an organism of the sex or sexual phase that normally produces a sperm cell or male gamete.
3.
Botany. a staminate plant.

Yeah, that makes sense to me. This is what I'll be saying. What will you be saying?

 

[Kano on the Phone]

I thought we were talking about referring to other people? I call my kid by his name, but when referencing him to other people I use he/him.

I am asking you what gender neutral pronoun you would use in that situation?

AFAIK there is not one.

If you are trying to change the language you need a better alternative IMHO, nonsense like purple penguins can work in in a small structured environment like the classroom, but what about reality?

Literally no one is trying to tell you that you can't call your kid a him or a her.

To anyone who doesn't think a boy is someone with a penis and a girl is someone with a vagina, what in your mind is a boy or girl? If your kids ask you, what will you say? I'm really curious.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/boy?s=t
boy
noun
1.
a male child, from birth to full growth, especially one less than 18 years of age.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/male?s=ts
male
noun
1.
a person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence; a boy or man.
2.
an organism of the sex or sexual phase that normally produces a sperm cell or male gamete.
3.
Botany. a staminate plant.

Yeah, that makes sense to me. This is what I'll be saying. What will you be saying?

Meow. You go, girl.

 

[Flo_Evans]

Literally no one is trying to tell you that you can't call your kid a him or a her.



Meow. You go, girl.

Right, you are trying to assert its rude to refer to others you don't know with gendered pronouns.

IDK I see a world of difference between "pardon me sir" and "pardon me"

I think you are really going to face an uphill battle convincing people adding the sir to a presumed male is rude. Its the opposite of how people perceive the words in reality.

 

[Walshicus]

I understand people mixing up while trying to be respectful when it comes to people's gender, but there are some assumptions you shouldn't make. Like someone's sexuality.

I appreciate you have a lot more direct experience with this than I ever could.

That said, I guess I don't agree with this. Everybody makes assumptions about everything; the teenager dressed in a black trenchcoat in the middle of summer probably likes a certain kind of music; the old man in a tweed jacket in a cathedral city is probably politically conservative; all the way down to most people are heterosexual and have no gender complications.

I think the point isn't to not make assumptions, because they generally work, but to have the decency to react the right way when an assumption is invalidated.

 

[Hackworth]

Why not just be like "Hey kids, sit down and shut up, you've got learning to do."

That's how it went when I was a kid.

 

[forms]

As the parent of a trans kid, together with whom I visited the gender identity team again today actually, I find this an amazingly interesting topic. Due to another kid of mine having a fever, I am too tired to go into a lengthy discussion with the hope of any resemblance of coherency however. One thing; Glad my kid thought gender neutral toilets were the norm until later years, private toilets without any mentions of gender have been used in all her schools throughout childhood.

Edit: according to some studies I have read, there are a LOT more people identifying as trans than the normally used numbers seem to indicate.


I'll be back.

 

[AlimNassor]

You know what's annoying?

"Hi, Lily...yeah...so what guys do you find cute?" "Do you have a boyfriend?"

Just because it's an honest mistake doesn't mean you should make assumptions. I hate it when people make assumptions about my sexuality.

So how are we supposed to know? Are we just supposed to assume everyone is an asexual genderless robot? If you're a boy but dress as a girl, but ID as a girl, and I call you a boy I apologize. I have no issue calling you by what you ID as. How am I supposed to know this?

 

[The Librarian]

I appreciate you have a lot more direct experience with this than I ever could.

That said, I guess I don't agree with this. Everybody makes assumptions about everything; the teenager dressed in a black trenchcoat in the middle of summer probably likes a certain kind of music; the old man in a tweed jacket in a cathedral city is probably politically conservative; all the way down to most people are heterosexual and have no gender complications.

I think the point isn't to not make assumptions, because they generally work, but to have the decency to react the right way when an assumption is invalidated.

That's a lot of strawman. Just because people make assumptions doesn't mean it's right that they do, and there are some assumptions that are very easy to not make.

 

[aly]

Here's a question, if a student asked to be identified as a boy or girl or got offended when a teacher corrected them, what could the school do?

 

[Lothar]

Meow. You go, girl.

What? I really want to know why you disagree with the dictionary definition and what's your own definition.

 

[The Librarian]

So how are we supposed to know? Are we just supposed to assume everyone is an asexual genderless robot? If you're a boy but dress as a girl, but ID as a girl, and I call you a boy I apologize. I have no issue calling you by what you ID as. How am I supposed to know this?

Um, why don't you ask me?

 

[Simply Sarah]

So how are we supposed to know? Are we just supposed to assume everyone is an asexual genderless robot? If you're a boy but dress as a girl, but ID as a girl, and I call you a boy I apologize. I have no issue calling you by what you ID as. How am I supposed to know this?

Asking is always a good start.

 

[lazorexplosion]

Several pages later you guys have really taken the 'purple penguins' example provided as a class name and fucking ran with it.

you guys

Aww shit!

I'm so offended right now.

 

[operon]

This is just crazy. Far better to educate our children that while men and women have physical differences they can do any job, have equal opportunities etc and teach our kids to be more acceptable to the fact that we are all different and just like all families are not the same and not everyone falls in love with the opposite sex and not everyone is born in the right body the world might be a better place for all. Calling kids purple penguin ain't going to achieve this.

 

[Uncle_Classy]

This is exactly the wrong way of going about creating inclusion. Teach children to be accepting of others and their differences. Don't pretend like those differences don't even exist in the first place. There is an incredible and wonderful amount of diversity amongst the human race. Why not celebrate those differences in favor turning a blind eye to them?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

This is exactly the wrong way of going about creating inclusion. Teach children to be accepting of others and their differences. Don't pretend like those differences don't even exist in the first place. There is an incredible and wonderful amount of diversity amongst the human race. Why not celebrate those differences in favor turning a blind eye to them?

That's exactly what it does. It celebrates people for being themselves rather than only allowing people to be part of one of two things.

 

[MIMIC]

That's exactly what it does. It celebrates people for being themselves rather than only allowing people to be part of one of two things.

The teachers were told to avoid using gendered pronouns altogether.

I see where you're coming from, but he was saying that he's never been wrong so far, so he is right in doing that. That's what I was taking issue with.

I understand people mixing up while trying to be respectful when it comes to people's gender, but there are some assumptions you shouldn't make. Like someone's sexuality.

I said it was fine....meaning "reasonable".

"Right" would mean that I could never be wrong (and that's not what I'm saying at all)

 

[SquiddyCracker]

If this is a serious post, then I would reply saying that changing the words isn't the answer to the problem. We should change those expectations rather than change what we call people.

That's the thing - it's a lot easier, and has a more immediate effect, to avoid using the word.
Long-term, we should of course change those expectations and remove the associated baggage, but in the mean time we can save as many children as possible by simply using gender-neutral pronouns and identifiers.

You and me, we're probably already ruined goods, but there's still hope for the next generation.

 

[Orrichio]

THIS HOUSE IS A LINUX HOUSE YOUNG MAN

Oh, crap! What's the name of that video again?

 

[ZdkDzk]

So wait, what was the problem again?

 

[Jinkies]

There is a lot of cynicism about this (in part, generated by the way the article is written).

However, reading about it gave me a "I'm living in the future" moment that one normally associates with incredible technology.

I'll be happier when society stops thinking about gender (and sexuality) as a firmly-defined, binary equation.