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[Zoe]

You guys are REALLY scaring me...

What you are saying is pretty much you can't do whatever you want with your stuff, because someone sometime in the future might sue you and that it might be called tampering with evidence if you are not running the hardware the way "most" usually does.

You realize that removing the controllers results in a metal brick, right? What has he been using to operate his computer the whole time this lawsuit has been going on then?

 

[Utako]

Sony ruined a life.

 

[Alucrid]

Not all financial aid has to be paid back there are grants, scholar ships and various other means of financial aid. The financial aid some times comes from tax payers much like the people who donated money to his cause. It is just regulated by the government or some other organization. Aid is aid, be it in the form or a donation or a grant or what ever it may be. Is he also supposed to only eat off the dollar menu because he accepted donations from people? What do you mean he got a steak last night for dinner I gave him 10 bucks to help with his legal fees… Come on people.

Grants and scholarships are not the same as government assisted financial aid.

 

[Mithos]

lol

Modifying something after you have been ordered to turn it over is vastly different that if you modified it before.

Yeah and that's what I'm saying, WHEN did he (Geohotz) remove the controller-card, it might have been last year, then no problem for him because they were like that before the legal issues started, if its after he was ordered to release the hard drives for inspection, TROUBLE!

 

[Corto]

LET'S DONATE MORE MONEY TO THIS STERLING EXAMPLE OF ANARCHIST PURITY

Well, he needs money to buy the ticket to return to the USA. We should start a donation.

 

[Treefingers]

Many people have deduced that he probably used the money donated for his legal fees to pay for at least part of his vacation. That's not an unreasonable conclusion given the evidence. What you refuse to do is to do anything other than spout again and again that you can't conclude anything, because nothing has objectively, 100% proven that he has spent the money that way. You're acting as though reaching any sort of conclusion based on reasoning is impossible. And that's the problem.

There's a difference between assumption and deductive reasoning.

 

[Speevy]

There's an episode of "Everybody Loves Raymond" in which Ray's brother Robert acts as though he can't afford to eat or pay bills, so Ray reluctantly agrees to loan him some money. But Robert wants to use that money to go to Las Vegas. Ray is not too happy about this.

A good lesson was learned by all in that episode.

 

[SapientWolf]

So you tell me I need to consider deductive reasoning.

I ask you to show the deductive reasoning because I want to consider it.

You say no, because I won't consider deductive reasoning.

You are an amazing poster, Chacranajxy, one in a million.

People are using inductive reasoning, not deductive. The conclusion can still be false even if the premises are true. Thus the debate on whether he "took a vacation" or "fled prosecution."

 

[Zoe]

Yeah and that's what I'm saying, WHEN did he (Geohotz) remove the controller-card, it might have been last year, then no problem for him because they were like that before the legal issues started, if its after he was ordered to release the hard drives for inspection, TROUBLE!

Turning over harddrives that haven't had any activity on them in a year would be a clear violation of the request.

 

[RustyNails]

There's an episode of "Everybody Loves Raymond" in which Ray's brother Robert acts as though he can't afford to eat or pay bills, so Ray reluctantly agrees to loan him some money. But Robert wants to use that money to go to Las Vegas. Ray is not too happy about this.

A good lesson was learned by all in that episode.

I want to know what Ray's dad had to say about the whole thing

 

[Amir0x]

Well, he needs money to buy the ticket to return to the USA. We should start a donation.

I am paypaling him now!

I feel like I've contributed to a cause WORTHY of praise!

 

[JWong]

I really think Sony (and other console makers in general) need to consider a system like Steam. Give deals to people while keeping the console open source. You can let people do what they want but the majority of people will also buy their games because Steam is convenient and highly user friendly. These corporations are going to have to give up some control eventually or the nazi tactics will just get worse I suppose.

That would make it a PC, which pretty much defeats the purpose of having a console.

There are reasons why game development prefers consoles. It's 100% purely dedicated to the game. Nothing running in the background, no need for compatibility checks of millions of hardware components.

 

[DonMigs85]

Sony ruined a life.

He should have heeded the wisdom of the parrot in this old Popeye short
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5RpTs4hH6Y

 

[RustyNails]

I am paypaling him now!

I feel like I've contributed to a cause WORTHY of praise!

You're gonna be mad when you find out he used your money for the return trip on trinkets.

 

[Forsete]

I am paypaling him now!

I feel like I've contributed to a cause WORTHY of praise!

I cant believe you support the idea of Sony/random megacorp installing rectum inspection devices in all future products, which is what this trial will ultimately lead to if Hotz does not win.

 

[malfcn]

Sony would be happy to buy him a ticket.

 

[Curufinwe]

The documents in the OP even show that Sony is well aware that he was presently out of the country.

The documents in the OP show that Sony were only told on March 17th that he was out of the country when the third party vendor found it was unable to image geohot's hard drive's because he removed components from them prior to turning them over in violation of the judge's discovery order, and that Sony believe him being out of the country is just one part of a deliberate campaign to thwart jurisdictional discovery.

 

[Amir0x]

You're gonna be mad when you find out he used your money for the return trip on trinkets.

good! Such a holy man needs to have things to remember his ascent back to this land, where we'll have parades waiting for him. In America, we support our true heroes.

 

[Canova]

Well, he needs money to buy the ticket to return to the USA. We should start a donation.

I am paypaling him now!

I feel like I've contributed to a cause WORTHY of praise!

oh, he wants to fly first class too

 

[TommyT]

Many people have deduced that he probably used the money donated for his legal fees to pay for at least part of his vacation. That's not an unreasonable conclusion given the circumstances. What you refuse to do is to do anything other than spout again and again that you can't conclude anything, because nothing has objectively, 100% proven that he has spent the money that way. You're acting as though reaching any sort of conclusion based on reasoning is impossible. And that's the problem.

Fixed that for you. Granted, you get say it's just semantics if you really wanted I suppose. Given the circumstances, what you have concluded is not unreasonable. Conversely, given the evidence, a different outcome would be just as reasonable.

Whatever people are concluding, I wish they would see that nothing is certain (yet) and should be taken into consideration.

 

[alr1ght]

I really think Sony (and other console makers in general) need to consider a system like Steam. Give deals to people while keeping the console open source. You can let people do what they want but the majority of people will also buy their games because Steam is convenient and highly user friendly. These corporations are going to have to give up some control eventually or the nazi tactics will just get worse I suppose.

That's not really how the console business works. The hardware is usually sold at a price below cost, and the manufacturers make up their money with licensing fees. Valve wouldn't put a "Steam Box" out because having an "open" console out of the box would be rife with piracy, and there would be less ways to make up the costs of the subsidized hardware. This really isn't a problem for a PC as it has many more uses than games and the hardware manufacturers don't get residual payments from software licenses (save for pre-installed bloatware).

 

[phosphor112]

Yea I do see your point. The amount of potential in future devices will make hackers want to hack it, but at the same time will make companies work harder to enforce strict laws so they can protect their investment and so on.

I guess it just comes down to how much time/money these companies are willing to put up with in order to stop this kinda stuff. It's definitely troubling though. I don't necessarily care too much about jailbreaking as long as the devices have what I need BUT I do support it because I believe people should be able to do what they want with their system. Cheating online should be managed by the company who made the game or they should have some kind of mandatory punkbuster-like program in future consoles.

I really think Sony (and other console makers in general) need to consider a system like Steam. Give deals to people while keeping the console open source. You can let people do what they want but the majority of people will also buy their games because Steam is convenient and highly user friendly. These corporations are going to have to give up some control eventually or the nazi tactics will just get worse I suppose.

I think right now, a Steam like DRM system is still impractical for most. Not everyone has internet. Steam constantly verifies files on your system (within reason) when you log-in. It is definitely going to be harder and harder to convince consumers that they have freedom and aren't being screwed with what they purchase while keeping a secure system. There has to be a balance, but reaching that yin-yang state is what is the most difficult part of the industry. You can only give or take so much, and one of the main issues is where to draw that line on what is given and what is taken.

I personally think Sony had a good system, until they took away OtherOS. They allowed lots of 3rd party devices, they allowed 3rd party HDD's, etc. It was only until the security issues is when Sony decided to close off their garden to more and more people. Hopefully Sony doesn't close off their whole system next gen (which I think might happen), but instead learns of a more accessible but secure console for the consumers.

 

[Amir0x]

I cant believe you support the idea of Sony/random megacorp installing rectum inspection devices in all future products, which is what this trial will ultimately lead to if Hotz does not win.

I support the idea of people getting in trouble for intentionally breaking the terms of agreement they agreed to when they purchase a device, and then broadcasting it around the internet like a fucking moron and trying to get sympathy from a bunch of 'tards whose only real purpose was something approaching basic, reflexive blind anti-corporate rage.

Virtually none of these people thought out for a second that not every circumstance is the same; this guy deserved to get caught and in trouble. Plain and simple.

He has done nothing admirable to praise.

 

[TommyT]

oh, he wants to fly first class too

and pay the fees to import a hot Brazilian chick!

 

[Alucrid]

I cant believe you support the idea of Sony/random megacorp installing rectum inspection devices in all future products, which is what this trial will ultimately lead to if Hotz does not win.

Ah, but if Hotz had never hacked the PS3, never existed, what then!

 

[RyanDG]

I think there's an important thing that needs to be noted here in terms of the hard drives... This is not a criminal case. A civil case has different burdens of proof than a criminal case in terms of determining guilt. As has been seen several times over during the MPAA/RIAA lawsuits, not delivering, destroying, attempting to conceal, or even frustrating evidence collection during civil cases often times is held against the defendant regardless of whatever motives the defendant had for their decisions.

Whatever geohot's motives for removing the boards, the nature of the civil case means that any attempts to slow or frustrate the evidence collection will absolutely end up weighing against him in the end simply for the perception of guilt in the action.

This may not be fair, because there are a ton of reasons to do what he did, or wipe a drive, or destroy a hard drive, but if we go by previous court recommendations, it almost always works against the defendant.

 

[ViolentP]

I support the idea of people getting in trouble for intentionally breaking the terms of agreement they agreed to when they purchase a device, and then broadcasting it around the internet like a fucking moron and trying to get sympathy from a bunch of 'tards whose only real purpose was something approaching basic, reflexive blind anti-corporate rage.

He has done nothing admirable to praise.

Not true. This thread has helped me get through the last few hours here at work. Thank you, Lord Geohot and the freedom you fight for. With money. Other people's money. Not mine. I'm not retarded.

 

[shintoki]

good! Such a holy man needs to have things to remember his ascent back to this land, where we'll have parades waiting for him. In America, we support our true heroes.

Truly, he is living the American Dream

 

[Curufinwe]

Yeah and that's what I'm saying, WHEN did he (Geohotz) remove the controller-card, it might have been last year, then no problem for him because they were like that before the legal issues started, if its after he was ordered to release the hard drives for inspection, TROUBLE!

I don't know how many times you need this explained, but it's trouble no matter when he removed them because the judge required geohot to comply with the
impoundment procedure recommended by The Intelligence Group. Part of that procedure is that hard drives be submitted in tact, not with the fucking controller cards removed.

 

[Neuromancer]

I think there's an important thing that needs to be noted here in terms of the hard drives... This is not a criminal case. A civil case has different burdens of proof than a criminal case in terms of determining guilt. As has been seen several times over during the MPAA/RIAA lawsuits, not delivering, destroying, attempting to conceal, or even frustrating evidence collection during civil cases often times is held against the defendant regardless of whatever motives the defendant had for their decisions.

Whatever geohot's motives for removing the boards, the nature of the civil case means that any attempts to slow or frustrate the evidence collection will absolutely end up weighing against him in the end simply for the perception of guilt in the action.

This may not be fair, because there are a ton of reasons to do what he did, or wipe a drive, or destroy a hard drive, but if we go by previous court recommendations, it almost always works against the defendant.

In a criminal case you can be charged with obstruction of justice if the government can prove you wiped a hard drive that had evidence on it.

But back to your original point, no I don't think the court will look kindly upon his actions. Even if he returns to the US in time for his court date.

 

[darkwing]

when is his court date btw?

 

[RustyNails]

oh, he wants to fly first class too

I hear he wants to eat finely cooked roast beef during his trip back as well, but he doesn't have money. Should we start roast beef donation?

 

[plagiarize]

That's not really how the console business works. The hardware is usually sold at a price below cost, and the manufacturers make up their money with licensing fees. Valve wouldn't put a "Steam Box" out because having an "open" console out of the box would be rife with piracy, and there would be less ways to make up the costs of the subsidized hardware. This really isn't a problem for a PC as it has many more uses than games and the hardware manufacturers don't get residual payments from software licenses (save for pre-installed bloatware).

as ever, how much it costs Sony or Microsoft or Nintendo to make their consoles isn't something i have to give two shits about. all i care about is what i get for the money i spend.

that some companies can't put together a desirable system that sells for a profit isn't my problem.

that sony and microsoft chose the 'loss leader' business model is their problem and their problem alone. laws shouldn't protect it.

and hey, it's already illegal to steal the things they sell to make up the slack, so if i choose to bring home my ps3 and just use it as a DLNA streamer how is that any different to if i want to mod it and run my own code on it?

from a financial perspective that is.

oh and George is a goddamn fool. i hate when people on my side of a cause ruin their reputation, because people incorrectly presume they are wrong in everything they have done and said and i have to deal with that shit.

now, consumer rights and fair use have gone out the window because he went on holiday and acted like a dick over his harddrives.

yeah, all that matters now is that people don't like him, so we should make it court precident that the DMCA trumps fair use.

wonderful.

and no, i didn't give any money to the moron, thank god.

 

[lethial]

In a lame attempt to direct traffic to their pathetic websites, some sources are now reporting that Geohot has "fled" the country after court documents reveal a PSN account alleged to belong to him. Normally, we would not report on something so completely ridiculous but, unfortunately, this nonsense is starting to spread to mainstream websites.

Hotz is currently on vacation in a South American country. As common sense would dictate, there is no reason to "flee" from a civil case. These sites have based their claims on misinterpretations of the court documents and an image (see below) posted on Geohot's blog. Way to put two and two together, guys!

In the future, we recommend only getting your news from reputable sites, not random video game blogs. When there's something real to report on the case, you''ll read it here, as always. For the record, we are referring to the original source of the article, which is some random video game blog, not any of the other scene sites who posted it. It's not their fault they got duped. Even legit mainstream news sites are posting it now. Unfortunately, this could have serious consequences on the case, even though it a total fabrication.

http://psx-scene.com/forums/f6/geohot-flees-south-america-83925/

 

[plagiarize]

http://psx-scene.com/forums/f6/geohot-flees-south-america-83925/

psx scene recommend people get their news from reputable sites.

that is kind of hilarious.

 

[Evlar]

As common sense would dictate, there is no reason to "flee" from a civil case.

Maybe not. There might, however, be a reason to flee when a court orders you to turn over your hard drive for forensic examination. Who knows what they might find.

 

[darkwing]

yup having a vacation in South America

 

[Speevy]

Well I'm glad a legitimate site that has no stake in this hacking business has come forth.

 

[alr1ght]

as ever, how much it costs Sony or Microsoft or Nintendo to make their consoles isn't something i have to give two shits about. all i care about is what i get for the money i spend.

that some companies can't put together a desirable system that sells for a profit isn't my problem.

I was just saying to not expect an "open" console anytime soon, as that's not how the console business is run. I was responding to a user who thought console manufacturers should adopt a "Steam-like" approach to their pricing.

 

[Slavik81]

I support the idea of people getting in trouble for intentionally breaking the terms of agreement they agreed to when they purchase a device, and then broadcasting it around the internet like a fucking moron and trying to get sympathy from a bunch of 'tards whose only real purpose was something approaching basic, reflexive blind anti-corporate rage.

Virtually none of these people thought out for a second that not every circumstance is the same; this guy deserved to get caught and in trouble. Plain and simple.

He has done nothing admirable to praise.

I thought this was a lawsuit over an infringement on Sony's IP rights, not a breach of contract.

 

[notworksafe]

Why even give up the HDD. I would have just used a strong fuckin magnet the second they found out about it.

Then you would be in jail.

Yeah and that's what I'm saying, WHEN did he (Geohotz) remove the controller-card, it might have been last year, then no problem for him because they were like that before the legal issues started, if its after he was ordered to release the hard drives for inspection, TROUBLE!

Those wouldn't be the hard drives that were asked for, so that would be a violation.

Gotta love idiots defending evidence tampering. As far as the other thing, I don't care about why he's in South America and as long as he is back in the country for a court date it doesn't really matter.

 

[Kosma]

You mad you got duped by a hacker?

 

[Revolutionary]

 

[Curufinwe]

yup having a vacation in South America

Eurogamer originally gave their news story the awesome subtitle: George of the jungle.

But they've changed it now.

 

[graywolf323]

somehow I'm not shocked

 

[Arkham]

and pay the fees to import a hot Brazilian tranny!

Fixed, because he can only do much with stock hardware.

 

[Neuromancer]

when is his court date btw?

April 8th I believe.

I thought this was a lawsuit over an infringement on Sony's IP rights, not a breach of contract.

I think Sony is going after him with the avenue that he had a PSN account and therefore agreed to the Terms of Service.

 

[Amir0x]

I thought this was a lawsuit over an infringement on Sony's IP rights, not a breach of contract.

It is, but in order to infringe on Sony's IP rights he had to breech the contract. Since breeching the contract is barely even prosecutable compared to the big picture here, it's incidental. My only point was that he has nobody but himself to blame.

 

[C Jones]

Good questions.

The donation (not a lot of money I might add, but that's neither here or there) came about because of building frustration over what a Sony victory would lead to. I think this was coupled by (in previous threads) a terrifying number of gamers supporting and cheerleading on as Sony tried to remove their rights. It was (and is) a maddening, frustrating experience to see people support their own consumer freedom's being redefined for the worse. It was coupled with another infuriating phenomenon, people cheering Sony on as they removed their own privately-owned product's functionality with OtherOS. I don't think there's been anything in the industry as abhorent, and as frustrating as these events, at least to me.

When the donations were asked for, an opportunity presented itself in which I could potentially help influence that outcome of this madness in some tiny way. It requred me to assume that George would use the money as promised, to fight his corner and (consequently) not allow Sony their worrying victory on this matter.

I didn't and still don't believe Geohot is trustworthy, responsible or likeable. As said many times, its a shame that he's the person targeted by Sony's legal onslaught, because under any other circumstances I wouldn't care if he won or lost anything. But even with the possibility of him doing something untoward with the funds, I still felt it was worth the risk. Even if this recent story has any merit, I still don't regret that decision in any way.

Gotcha, thanks for responding.

 

[Kagari]

Ridiculous irony here.