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[golem.de with Shawn Layden] Sony bets on real PS 5 instead of console revolution
- Thread starter c0de
- Start date
family_guy
Member
Not really. It doesn't hurt anyone except the people who can't stand that someone else has a better system than them.
Shil Pencer
Member
Stupid
The pro and scorpio both being Jaguar almost prevents an iterative model from working. No point using Scorpio or Pro as a new baseline as the CPU is basically the same as the PS4/XB1. You'd still be hamstrung with your new console.
So PS5/XB2 - assuming they have a decent Ryzen or similar CPU - have to cut ties with both standard and pro versions of their respective consoles.
MS have said everything that runs on the xbone will run on the nextbox?
Dee Dah Dave
Member
People need to wrap their head around the idea that a PS5 is entirely dependant on hardware advancements to make such an 'update' viable. That means technology, mass market availability, and console pricepoint. It isn't coming any time soon. This gen will be as long or slightly longer than the last, and the Pro / XB1X are here to partly alleviate that. That is a major point of their existence.
That's good to hear! Consoles always worked that way and should in the future.
It's interesting that he says the first 60 mio sold consoles come easy, the next 60 millions are hard because you need to tap new player bases, e.g. casual gamers. I wonder if this means that the PS4 will have an even longer life cycle than everybody thinks atm or if this means that they'll start to publish casual games now and prepare the core players for the release of the PS5 in the next 2 years.
And don't make this thread about BC again. This interview has nothing to do with BC, that's OT, post your BC begging in related threads.
It's interesting that he says the first 60 mio sold consoles come easy, the next 60 millions are hard because you need to tap new player bases, e.g. casual gamers. I wonder if this means that the PS4 will have an even longer life cycle than everybody thinks atm or if this means that they'll start to publish casual games now and prepare the core players for the release of the PS5 in the next 2 years.
And don't make this thread about BC again. This interview has nothing to do with BC, that's OT, post your BC begging in related threads.
The mid-gen consoles are a double edged sword though. We have decent increases in GPU performance and Ryzen could probably be ready for 2018/2019 in a nice scorpio+ level APU. Could probably have an 8-10TF Ryzen box by then which would be a big jump over the original consoles.
But now with pro and scorpio that won't provide enough of a jump over launch XB1/PS4 so they have to wait even longer.
LukasTaves
Member
On 360 they had games that couldn't reach as low as the ps3 could, with requirements for developers to stick to their apis, instead of specific low level code.
On xbone they took a step further in have games run on a virtualized environment even with the performance cost added to the weaker console so even old games could be easily brought to a new console.
Moving towards a platform aimed at supporting cross platform development.
Changing the entire OS to this new platform during the ongoing generation to ensure everything they have now works with it.
Merging all their stores together.
Using for the first time a common Xbox live implementation on windows and Xbox (dunno about mobile, but likely there as well). Back in the 360 days Games for Windows Live and 360's Live were two separated networks, not alike how 360's and Xbone's are not the same.
Changing the publisher contracts demanding that any game published on Xbox will have to be available to all Xbox consoles even after Scorpio.
They validate all that by having the S run games faster, and even are using the compatibility of the platform as an advantage to developing for Scorpio. You don't have to code for normal mode or boost mode. Whichever you game does it does faster on xbonex and simply leaving no hard coded blocks is enough to support not only Scorpio but future consoles. This is already an advantage over Pro which just last month had games not having any benefits for it until a later patch.
So, they have been making changes towards that even before the generation begun. Sony on the other hand, haven't made anything of that or close to it, and it's clear how tied to ps4 their development is when it took them months after launch to offer a boost mode and that mode doesn't even expose a large gpu. Looking back at it and the 14+4 CU talk at the beginning of the generation it makes it very likely that ps4 games are designed even with the amount of CUs PS4 had.
Absolutely needs to be.
JershJopstin
Banned
Ehh... Not sure how smart that would be. AMD would be able to provide a significantly better cpu next gen, so switching to an ARM SOC (assuming that's what you mean) would already be a considerable trade-off. Additionally, you're dismissing Navi assuming PS4 comes late enough for it) before we know a damn thing about it. I believe it's supposed to move on from GCN. AMD has been competitive with Nvidia before, it could happen again.
Calm Mind
Member
Fat chance with the size of the current combined install bases of the PS4 and Xbox One. You would would be handicapping the PS5 and Xbox One for at least 3 years before sales picked up to acceptable levels.
Yep, new tech is sorely needed, especially regarding the CPU. Next gen needs to push the boundaries.
LukasTaves
Member
I don't think it will be BC, but even if it were it would be stupid to announce it now.
Your competitor has BC, you don't. Then you say it's not important and at the same time you assure that the next console will. You just validated the competitor strategy over yours XD
Real_Madrid
Member
Most people will have an enormous (PS+) digital library by then, not having PS4 BC would be such a bad decision. I wouldn't buy the PS5.
This isn't like previous gens where it didn't matter that much. The smartphone model would be better for everyone imo, so I don't know why they wouldn't do that. Do we really want another 'back to 0' start of the generation where the first 2 years are mostly mediocre games? Sony makes almost all money from software and services, so why make it a totally new thing instead of building on what they have.
Console generations are outdated, I think that most people expect a model where they can buy a game and play it forever on that platform, regardless of what version it is.
They have been saying that and working towards it for at least a couple of years now.
JershJopstin
Banned
Why is that more relevant now than in any other generation?
Very good point. True.
AyraSutoraifu
Member
Thank god...
Looking at UC4 and Horizon, there's no need for a PS5 anytime soon.
Looking at UC4 and Horizon, there's no need for a PS5 anytime soon.
then they're idiots to be making those sorts of claims so far in advance. now if even 1 game doesn't run on the next box they'll have hell to pay. why even risk that? for the sake of a bit of possible possitive press? it's like the BC announcement for xbox games this E3. it's the same "select games" BS that the 360 BC has. i mean, i'd take no BC over that sort of implementation tbh. it just feel like a check box feature otherwise.
You won't hear anything about PS5 until 2019 at the earliest.
Nightengale
Member
Pretty much what LT said.
The reality is PS4 can't do compelling BC with PS3, and Sony had chosen to make the business decision of reselling PS1/PS2 games on PS4 with a different approach from MS's. Closer to Nintendo if anyone.
It's fine for Sony now because lack of BC has minimal-to-no-impact in the success of PS4. But if Sony recognises that it's a strategy that needs to change in the future when they introduce a new product...
They will not admit it now because it's basically saying "sorry consumers, we still want to screw you for the next 3-4 years because we are market leader with PS4. Wait till PS5 for us to be more consumer-friendly since we'll have to take competition more seriously."
Bustanen
Member
Zero chance that PS5 has a puny ARM SOC or anything made by nvidia. They burned those bridges with the PS3.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
Well it requires 7nm and probably at least doubling the RAM amount ( 8 to 16GB). Then for it to be a true next gen machine I would say it needs double the Scorpio GPU at least, so 12TF. Which would be 6.5X the OG PS4, a pretty standard jump factor, maybe even a bit low. Plus it seems a safe bet that 4K will be the standard, so that eats into the graphics capabilities.
I just don't see how it is doable for the right price before 2020. As you say if they go too soon the graphics that people see on their screens wont have any 'next gen' impact. IMO it's best to ride it out as long as possible and deliver a real upgrade.
There's zero risk. If they can get any 360 game working on the Xbox One when BC wasn't even on their mind with Xbox One, certainly they can future proof it going forward.
What's the other news?
Opus Angelorum
Member
PS5 will be 2020.
Calm Mind
Member
For one, the leap will not be as significant as in recent generations. And secondly, Sony may be saying it's not a half-step but there is no way they can provide a true generational leap over the PS4 without some severe compromises to the PS5.
JershJopstin
Banned
I was more looking to address the theoretical gains than the plausibility. An SOC is the feasible reason Nvidia would mean ARM as stated by the comment I replied to, no?
I think it's for the benefit of us all in this forum that there are clean-cut generations. Otherwise fragmentation will cause all games to be developed perpetually for the lowest denominator for a whole lot longer than what we are used to - as it happens for mobile where games have barely advanced technologically.
LukasTaves
Member
I wouldn't say prevent. That will definitely have some setbacks.
But, if your game requires more power than a jaguar you cut the older consoles, otherwise you support them. It's on a per game basis not a clean break that after that nothing runs on older hardware even if it could.
I do agree that MS likely won't be able to make xbonex support mandatory for so long as they plan to do with the regular xbone, but even then there are methods to make some games work on older hardware like halving the framerate (if it's a 60fps game), half tick updates for physics and game logic (with the possibility of interpolation to support even lower than 30hz on some stuff)
CassidyIzABeast
Member
I just hope nobody does some silly shit like a clean slate restart like in past generations where you have to wait for something basic like a Netlfix app to be made. Just build on what you already have on the software side.
Bustanen
Member
Unless Sony goes crazy and tries to copy the switch, there's no reason to pick an ARM SOC. There won't be anything even remotely comparable to ryzen in the near future from ARM.
yep. PS5 2020 with a vita successor 2019 (only if the switch reeeeeeaaally pops off in 2018)
Shin-Ra
Junior Member
^
Xbox and Xbox fans are no strangers to this. Doesn't matter, say whatever sounds good and change it later if necessary.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
Sure they have done a lot in recent years to unify their gaming platform. But I don't see how that extends to endless compatibility going forward. At some point something has to give.
MS, Sony and all devs were not happy with the performance of the Jaguar right back in 2013. There's no way they are going to tie their new platform to it too in 2020+. If a game is being made for some type of Zen CPU in a next gen console, it simply wont run on the Jaguar, no matter how much MS 'streamlines' their system software and development tools.
Obviously there will be a year or so of cross gen games, but no more than that.
Maroon Gamer
Member
Thats good news.. I love new console generations. 2020 seems ok to launch a new console.
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
What I really think is going to happen is that Sony will allow developers to choose between these two options:
- Create a PS5 only game
or
- Create a PS4 game that will run with better visuals, at a higher resolution on PS4 Pro and PS5. This could either be a single binary for both PS4 and PS4 or a cross buy title (two binaries for two different setups, one development platform for the developer)
Nightengale
Member
So basically cross-gen, like the first 2 years of this console generation, only with benefits on better hardware and BC.
I think this generation will last as long if not slightly longer than the last. Pro and X seem a very obvious and concious effort to achieve that whilst also avoiding the situation we had at the end of the PS3/360 generation where performance fell so obviously far behind PC. Whether you agree the hardware choices themselves can do that is obviously another story, but that's the business logic regardless.
Right now I see both Pro and X as luxury items that much of the mass market doesn't need. But the hardware is there to start being pushed. Over the next 18 months I full expect to see the PS4 and Xbox One S price dropped to a mass market sub £200/$200, and very consciously bundled with casual or family friendly software, while the Pro and X start getting bundled with the big hitting exclusives such as God of War and any assumed future Halo games, etc.
The marketing and message behind both the Pro and X is going to start getting more aggressive as this generation rolls on, and I fully expect both Sony and Microsoft to rely on them to drive sales through the last couple of years of this generation. I don't think we even hear about PS5 or Nextbox officially until 2020.
Right now I see both Pro and X as luxury items that much of the mass market doesn't need. But the hardware is there to start being pushed. Over the next 18 months I full expect to see the PS4 and Xbox One S price dropped to a mass market sub £200/$200, and very consciously bundled with casual or family friendly software, while the Pro and X start getting bundled with the big hitting exclusives such as God of War and any assumed future Halo games, etc.
The marketing and message behind both the Pro and X is going to start getting more aggressive as this generation rolls on, and I fully expect both Sony and Microsoft to rely on them to drive sales through the last couple of years of this generation. I don't think we even hear about PS5 or Nextbox officially until 2020.
AyraSutoraifu
Member
Can't Sony build their own x86 chips?
Cornbread78
Member
and allow cross platform play, and allow PSN name changes, and actually have gamezzzz
It better had it all!
GenericUser
Member
I read the article and I like how sony clearly commits to a "PS5". Just like how they say that the PS4 is doing great and they will support it for the years to come, but after that, it will be a real generational leap.
They plan to sell 100 million PS4.
IncognitoPanda
Member
Why? Just because it's PS5 and not PS4.5 doesn't mean you'll see a bigger jump in power. These "half steps" are as good as you get for their respective prices.
What exactly are you looking forward to? No back compat?