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[Einchy]

Holy Baikal Logic.

If you say his name 2 more times his spirit gets you tangled up in a ridiculous debate.

 

[Alienous]

You'd kill women's sports outside of ultra endurance running, where women show less gaps in performance.

It would kill male and women's sports, wouldn't it? I'm just not keen on the idea of women having a competition ceiling of their own gender because of the assumption too few would rise to the occasion in mixed sports. But I don't know, maybe it wouldn't be feasible.

So let's take basketball. Your idea is implemented. The best of the best means that every roster is filled with all men. Women either find another profession, or someone starts a women's league so they can at least compete and maybe make a career out of it. We're back to where we started.

I suppose.

 

[Justified]

She had such an advantage that she lost.

3rd Place isnt loosing in many aspects, also her placement isnt the issue

 

[Quonny]

ADVANTAGE?

She won a bronze! Is a Bronze that scared to you?

I'm not arguing whether or not she had an advantage, but even if she got last place she still potentially could have taken someone else's place in the race.

Again, not arguing that she had an advantage, but the place she got is completely irrelevant.

 

[oon]

Maybe they should remove the male/female distinction in sports, and instead divide it between those who've gone through testosterone-induced changes, and those who haven't? Reframing it this way would also benefit gender neutral athletes.

Keep the two separate brackets, but don’t call them “male” and “female”.

 

[Basileus777]

It would kill male and women's sports, wouldn't it? I'm just not keen on the idea of women having a competition ceiling of their own gender because of the assumption too few would rise to the occasion in mixed sports. But I don't know, maybe it wouldn't be feasible.

It wouldn't be feasible. You can't wish away biological differences and women deserve to have the opportunity to compete in sports.

 

[Bony Manifesto]

She had such an advantage that she lost.

I don't think that's a particularly compelling argument though. If you're an athlete and you fail a drugs test, saying, "well I only came in third, so I didn't gain an advantage" isn't going to get you very far (and is very clearly logically fallacious).

 

[HStallion]

It would kill male and women's sports, wouldn't it? I'm just not keen on the idea of women having a competition ceiling of their own gender because of the assumption too few would rise to the occasion in mixed sports. But I don't know, maybe it wouldn't be feasible.

Well it might not kill them but again, men would probably dominate in certain sports to the point women are barely there. Hell even watching something like Ninja Warrior on TV show's that men tend to have a serious advantage over the women because of upper body strength. Just finishing the first course is usually something like an 80/20 or 70/30 split in favor of men and sometimes no women finish at all while several men do. They might not disappear but they might be shoved into a corner so to speak.

 

[DrBo42]

The way you fix this is to get rid of all gender specific sports. Let everyone compete as equals and whoever wins, wins.

This is nonsense. I'm all for equality but what you're suggesting is both unfair and likely dangerous.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Bathroom-equality advocates want people to use whatever bathroom they feel more comfortable in, but I'd be interested in knowing whether they want athletes to compete against their preferred gender as well. I'd be for that but it raises so many challenges. If a female athlete transitioned to being a male, he would likely have a really tough time competing with other "original" males, so I don't see how he'd be comfortable with it. Isn't testosterone part of the transition process? How would that affect drug-testing policies?

Edit - OK bunch of posts since I started writing this, so someone may have answered already.

There is big difference between the bathroom issue and professional athletes. The number of people who would, as conservatives (supposedly) fear, pretend to be trans-gender out of a heterosexual desire to visit the bathroom of the other gender is vanishly small or none. We do know on the other hand that there is a lot of people who would do a lot to gain an unfair advantage in sports.

 

[PSqueak]

So this transgender girl wasn't amazing enough to beat everyone, but that doesn't touch on the broader point - generally speaking would a transgender male->female be at an unfair physical advantage in some sports?

I personally believe it depends on various factors.

What age did she transition? Was she an athlete before the transition?

If Caitlin Jenner had transitioned at the peak of her athletic career, she'd probably have an advantage over cis female athletes, but, if a teenage kid transitioned at an early age, it's less likely that she'd have an advantage vs other teenage athletes of her age regardless of their gender, finally, a teen that transitioned early in life but wasn't an athlete before transitioning would likely be in disadvantage.

 

[ApharmdX]

Except they aren't. There's a reason there aren't many 5'6'' male basketball players.

But there are some. Whereas I don't believe the best WNBA player could make the roster of an NBA team. The physical differences are too great.

 

[Eumi]

Yes men are better at sports. But these are not men, these are women born with the genetic advantage of having male features, why should they be excluded from the sport?

There's a difference between gender identity and biological sex. Those male advantages are the entire reason the separation exists.

 

[GreatestHits]

Honestly would the best resolution be to let the trans women compete with the men? If transgendered people commanded the same respect in our society as the more mundane orientations, I think this is a possible route we'd take, however the most feasible option for sports still seems to be trans as it's own league

 

[Einchy]

It would kill male and women's sports, wouldn't it? I'm just not keen on the idea of women having a competition ceiling of their own gender because of the assumption too few would rise to the occasion in mixed sports. But I don't know, maybe it wouldn't be feasible.

why would it destroy male sports? The sport would still be ere, it'd just be all males competing at high levels, with maybe the odd women here and there. Women wouldn't be able to compete with most pro-athletes, I mean, there's a reason there's a distinction right now.

 

[Team Alucard]

I understand the parents' anger. Sports events are segregated for a reason.

I'll be honest I'm not sure how this works with things like hormone treatments and what not. Wouldn't that offset the "natural" edge in strength or whatever that men normally have?

No, hormones don't really change much once you're past puberty. They don't effect bone structure at all.

Plus, I don't believe you can legally start HRT in the U.S. until you turn 18, so it's doubtful she was even on them.

 

[Haribi]

It would kill male and women's sports, wouldn't it? I'm just not keen on the idea of women having a competition ceiling of their own gender because of the assumption too few would rise to the occasion in mixed sports. But I don't know, maybe it wouldn't be feasible.

What you want already exists.
Most "male" sports aren't gender restricted. There's not a rule that forbids women from competing in the NBA, NFL etc. they're open for everyone. It's just that no woman is good enough to compete in these sports and that's why they seem like male only sports even though they are actually open to both men and women.

 

[entremet]

It would kill male and women's sports, wouldn't it? I'm just not keen on the idea of women having a competition ceiling of their own gender because of the assumption too few would rise to the occasion in mixed sports. But I don't know, maybe it wouldn't be feasible.



I suppose.

You wanna kill women's sports for fringe cases like these?

Man, I don't get this logic.

This stuff barely comes up.

 

[Newt]

Do they allow transgender men to compete in women's sports at the college level?

 

[davepoobond]

I don't think that's a particularly compelling argument though. If you're an athlete and you fail a drugs test, saying, "well I only came in third, so I didn't gain an advantage" isn't going to get you very far (and is very clearly logically fallacious).

not to mention not every person that transitions takes hormones, right?

 

[Justified]

why would it destroy male sports? The sport would still be ere, it'd just be all males competing at high levels, with maybe the odd women here and there. Women wouldn't be able to compete with most pro-athletes, I mean, there's a reason there's a distinction right now.

Its also the reason there are separate leagues

 

[Alienous]

Well it might not kill them but again, men would probably dominate in certain sports to the point women are barely there. Hell even watching something like Ninja Warrior on TV show's that men tend to have a serious advantage over the women because of upper body strength. Just finishing the first course is usually something like an 80/20 or 70/30 split in favor of men and sometimes no women finish at all while several men do. They might not disappear but they might be shoved into a corner so to speak.

Yeah, you're right.

It is more nuanced than a blanket solution could solve.

 

[Poltergust]

Do they allow transgender men to compete in women's sports at the college level?

Transgender men would compete in men's sports.

 

[Arthr2ShdsJcksn]

How about 'who cares because its only a game?' I'm more appalled by how serious parents (well, literally anyone) takes sports. Let the girl stay on the track team. The only thing that is important for me, when considering sports, is the camaraderie/teamwork aspects, which aren't affected at all.

 

[Ishan]

I should point out that DNA already gives people an inherit advantage in sports without including transgender individuals.

Yeah but why even have seperate men and female events ?

But it doesn't eliminate it. I can definitely see how this type of situation can annoy someone.



Uhh, it's a state level track meet. Where do you think athletes start? Winsplacements can lead to scholarships.

Yup it's not professional doesn't mean it's not important . Very strange question to address obviously the argument doesn't matter for transgender competing in men's no one should worry about that but in female events can def see how some would object . Complex issue .

 

[Heshinsi]

Her placement doesnt seem to be the issue, moreso her involvement.

If she hadn't placed in a position to win a medal, not one of these parents would have cared. These parents can fuck right off. She placed 5th in one race and 3rd in the other, so clearly she's not dominating.

 

[McLovin]

She came in 3rd😑, I could understand if she came in first-went to get a drink of water- then came back to cheer them on before they finished lol

 

[GaimeGuy]

Let's flip the discussion: What about female to male transgender persons? They can't compete with women because they're essentially doping on testosterone.

 

[Silphonica]

It's my understanding that the m-->f hormone therapy diminishes the physical advantages

Not instantly or completely . It's not easily cut and dry, I don't know what the answer is either.

 

[Horsemama1956]

I personally believe it depends on various factors.

What age did she transition? Was she an athlete before the transition?

If Caitlin Jenner had transitioned at the peak of her athletic career, she'd probably have an advantage over cis female athletes, but, if a teenage kid transitioned at an early age, it's less likely that she'd have an advantage vs other teenage athletes of her age regardless of their gender, finally, a teen that transitioned early in life but wasn't an athlete before transitioning would likely be in disadvantage.

Do baby and toddlers usually transition? At the earliest the age is most likely going to be 12-13 and beyond, isn't it?. You're also not all that likely to start transitioning later on in life and than attempt to switch gender divisions in professional or amateur sports. 99.9% of the time you're going to be talking about high school students.

 

[QuantumZebra]

I could see it working big for some sports, but male vs female boxing? No way.

With weight classes the difference is greatly minimalized.

I would take Laila Ali over a lot of guys in her weight division, for instance.

And I'm 100% positive Ronda Rousey would demolish some dudes in her weight class in UFC (maybe not now since her spirit seems to be broken over that 1 loss... which sucks).

 

[Izuna]

It really shouldn't be like this. Sport is segregated by sex for the very reason that gives a trans woman advantages -- but bare with me.

AFAIK, the Holy Baikal post that got her banned was a series of posts that undermined the hard work of women in sports, saying that they had the same chances to be strong as men which is obviously not true and essentially called women athletes less hard working.

That being said, no one is transitioning because they want an advantage in sports. Then it gets far more complicated so the point that you realise it's never really fair. Sport is a test of wit but mostly physical attributes determined by genetics -- just like an IQ test I guess. But the reason why we watch sports is to figure out who is the most athletic. The fastest guy will beat the fastest girl, but out of the guys and girls we want to see comes out on top. From a spectator's point of view, is no more disappointing to see a trans woman win a ladies race then it is to see an only black kid in a rural area win the local sprint.

Spectators ask: why can't trans women run with the men
and the Trans athletes states: because I'm not a man

Neither side is invalid here, but my goodness can people respect the organisers decision to let them run in the ladies competition. I only see this being a big issue if Trans women start winning gold medals in the ladies section of the Olympics, and a country that's bigoted as fuck complains. Outside of national pride, can we not take it so seriously that we have to regress to talking about fucking chromosomes.

 

[Haly]

Hell, just draw names and that person wins the gold medal.

This is what already happens, just on a generational level. Opportunity + genetics is what takes the gold. You can only make the case for personal effort up to a certain level of competitiveness.

Not going to address the other point because it's already being discussed and I don't see it being productive.

 

[Kurdel]

Yup it's not professional doesn't mean it's not important . Very strange question to address obviously the argument doesn't matter for transgender competing in men's no one should worry about that but in female events can def see how some would object . Complex issue .

They can put height and weight limits for certain sports if this was a real concern.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

People mention treatment or hormones. But not every transgender is on medication, right?

You can be transgender without taking meds? I thought it was more your identity than what you have done? Or am I off?

 

[Justified]

How about 'who cares because its only a game?' I'm more appalled by how serious parents (well, literally anyone) takes sports. Let the girl stay on the track team. The only thing that is important for me, when considering sports, is the camaraderie/teamwork aspects, which aren't affected at all.

Alot of student scholarship hopes are placed in sports

If she hadn't placed in a position to win a medal, not one of these parents would have cared. These parents can fuck right off. She placed 5th in one race and 3rd in the other, so clearly she's not dominating.

You are right, but she did, and hear we are. Even if she lost this discussion would eventually have came up

Let's flip the discussion: What about female to male transgender persons? They can't compete with women because they're essentially doping on testosterone.

Not every transitioning person use Hormones, and like its been pointed out in the US you cant even use hormone treatment till you are 18

 

[Jack Random]

But it doesn't eliminate it. I can definitely see how this type of situation can annoy someone.

Uhh, it's a state level track meet. Where do you think athletes start? Wins\placements can lead to scholarships.

"annoy"

If this is allowed to continue, you could potentially see such scholarship programs dominated by genetically male individuals. That's kind of bullshit and screws genetically female individuals.

Lets take it a step further, should a Transgender M->F be allowed to fight genetically female opponents in boxing? how about MMA?

Should a genetically male golfer be allowed to compete in the WPGA where they have a massive advantage over their opponents?

Trans rights are a big deal, but you end up really putting CIS women at a disadvantage if you allow it in sports. In contact sports, it becomes downright dangerous.

 

[thelatestmodel]

It isn't particularly fair, I mean look at Caitlyn Jenner, if she had transitioned in her teens you would have a gold medal mens caliber athlete competing with women.

Exactly. I am 100% in favour of as much equality as possible, I fully support LGBT, but I am also in favour of things being as fair as possible.

Unfortunately you have to face facts, male to female transgender people have an unfair biological advantage, and that can't be changed. I don't think I could honestly say that they should be allowed to compete with women. Sounds awful but it's unavoidable really.

 

[Wereroku]

Do baby and toddles usually transition? At the earliest the age is most likely going to be 12-13 and beyond, isn't it?. You're also not all that likely to start transitioning later on in life and than attempt to switch gender divisions in professional or amateur sports.

Some are starting to transition before puberty but that usually involves a family that is completely understanding and open which doesn't seem super common so most seem to start after puberty with some not using hormone therapy at all.

 

[Ikuu]

And I'm 100% positive Ronda Rousey would demolish some dudes in her weight class in UFC (maybe not now since her spirit seems to be broken over that 1 loss... which sucks).

No.

 

[entremet]

People mention treatment or hormones. But not every transgender is on medication, right?

You can be transgender without taking meds? I thought it was more your identity than what you have done? Or am I off?

You're correct.

 

[Ishan]

How about 'who cares because its only a game?' I'm more appalled by how serious parents (well, literally anyone) takes sports. Let the girl stay on the track team. The only thing that is important for me, when considering sports, is the camaraderie/teamwork aspects, which aren't affected at all.

That's your opinion of sports athleticism and sports are very much a part of human culture . Competive ness as much as comraderie. If I don't like philosophy I'm not going to say who cares about abstract thought experiments I only care about some policies .. You're being narrow minded .

 

[Ordinaryundone]

Yes men are better at sports. But these are not men, these are women born with the genetic advantage of having male features, why should they be excluded from the sport?

Because natural born women don't have those kinds of genetic advantages? Yes there are women who are bigger and stronger than your average man but this isn't about outliers. If Floyd Mayweather came out as trans and declared he wanted to fight the women's champion would you let him?

 

[Netherscourge]

Maybe they should remove the male/female distinction in sports, and instead divide it between those who've gone through testosterone-induced changes, and those who haven't? Reframing it this way would also benefit gender neutral athletes.

Keep the two separate brackets, but don’t call them “male” and “female”.

Why not just have three sports brackets?

Male/Female/Transgendered-Nonspecific-Neutral?

Of course, the only problem with this is that there would be much less of a pool of transgendered-nonspecific-neutral people to compete with, but it's an interesting idea.

 

[see5harp]

The male/female sports distinction ought to be dissolved anyway.

That sounds incredibly silly.

 

[azyless]

Is this actually how they do things? I never knew! Is it an effective way to determine whether or not you can compete with women?

Thanks!

Well they haven't done it for a long time (this summer will be the first) so it's hard to say. But I believe it's the best possible way without excluding trans people all together or making them participate in the other gender's category.

As point out the Olympic way may be the closest way to solve it, by testing testosterone, but is that feasible at a grade school level?

Hormone testing is literally just a blood (sometimes urine) test, takes 5 minutes. I don't see why that wouldn't be possible at high school level.
The issue would be that it's hard to actually get on hormone therapy, so these students might not be able to participate, but that's another issue.

 

[Annubis]

We have years upon years of statistical data for most sports.

Wouldn't it be possible to have both gender compete together and apply a gender statistical correction to the athlete's performance to have a final ranking?

For example:
A man runs the 100m in 10.2 seconds
A woman runs the 100m in 10.7 seconds

Apply a modifier to the woman's time (which would be decided by analyzing the differential between men and women in the last 50 years of Olympics)

Man = 10.2
Woman 10.7 * 0.95 = 10.165

The woman gets the gold because her performance was better all things considered.
After that, you could start working on what the modifier would be for trans.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

It is unfair for female athletes to have to compete with someone who may have an inherent physiological advantage because of their born sex.

The male/female sports distinction ought to be dissolved anyway.

Someone says this in every thread on the subject and it's dumber every time.

If you want to completely destroy female competitive sports, I guess this could be a good idea. Merging of sports would completely eliminate the success of top women in Tennis, Track & Field, Swimming, Running, Cycling, Basketball, Weightlifting, and baseball, for starters.

We have years upon years of statistical data for most sports.

Wouldn't it be possible to have both gender compete together and apply a gender statistical correction to the athlete's performance to have a final ranking?

For example:
A man runs the 100m in 10.2 seconds
A woman runs the 100m in 10.7 seconds

Apply a modifier to the woman's time (which would be decided by analyzing the differential between men and women in the last 50 years of Olympics)

Man = 10.2
Woman 10.7 * 0.95 = 10.165

The woman gets the gold because her performance was better all things considered.
After that, you could start working on what the modifier would be for trans.

Why go to this length when your modifiers are stating out loud that men and women are inherently noncompetitive?

 

[Akim]

And I'm 100% positive Ronda Rousey would demolish some dudes in her weight class in UFC (maybe not now since her spirit seems to be broken over that 1 loss... which sucks).

lmfao not this shit again

 

[Rootbeer]

She has a right to compete and win if she is able.