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CNBC: US military has launched more than 50 missiles aimed at Syria: NBC News

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J

Jackpot

Banned
BlastProcessing said:
Text and context, friend. They both matter. The Russians manipulated our election mostly by controlling context. It's been the basis of Russian/Soviet active measures for over a century.

The sources of information matter, because the details matter.
Click to expand...

You're talking to a guy that toed the Russian line when they annexed Crimea, when MH17 was shot down, when they bombed a UN aid convoy, and defended Russia Today's impartiality.

I don't think you're going to get a fair take on the issue from him.

El_Tiguere said:
Shhhhh... another word and you will be lumped in as an enemy sympathizer and domestic terrorist mouthpiece against the regime. Fall in line.
Click to expand...

You've yet to provide any evidence for your speculations and have ignored most of the replies explaining how your posts are wrong.
 
F

FreedomFighter

Member
BlastProcessing said:
Text and context, friend. They both matter. The Russians manipulated our election mostly by controlling context. It's been the basis of Russian/Soviet active measures for over a century.

The sources of information matter, because the details matter.
Click to expand...
This isn't what we're discussing. We both know that the Wesley Clark interview happened on Democracy Now. If someone who has a questionable channel then uploads said interview, it doesn't then invalidate the Wesley Clark interview. Understand what I mean?
 
E

El_Tiguere

Member
ClosingADoor said:
So basically the classic theories, got it. So, the seven countries you again name, leave out Egypt and Tunisia. Two countries I specifically asked about. What is the interest of the US and Israel of removing two regimes they had either friendly or peaceful relations with (Syria and Egypt), one of which bought US arms by the billions also.
Click to expand...

I haven't read up much on Tunisia, but with Egypt, it was clear that the US was ready to play ball with whoever replaced Mubarak. It doesn't change the fact that he Saudis took up the chance in Egypt to spread their Wahhabbi jihad. For Israel, again, Syria's Assad is standing in the way of their existential enemy, Iran.

ClosingADoor said:
Also, you mention oil as important to this all. So I guess the idea is to either control oil interests in these countries, or remove them as oil producing factors to drive the price up. But the US and Saudi Arabia already control most oil and decide the price in that.
Click to expand...

While Libya has oil (and Qaddafi did not want anything to do with western global banks), Syria is the territory being fought over for two competing natural gas pipelines, which would determine who's the major supplier of natural gas to Europe. A Russian gas pipeline (which is why Russia stepped in after he saw Assad was in trouble), and a Qatar gas pipeline (which is why Qatar is funding ISIS to topple Assad and lure the US into the fight). France is in bed with Qatar, which is why they have always been the biggest cheerleaders for invading Syria. There is a lot of money and power at play, and little concern in the end for dying children from either side.

ClosingADoor said:
Plus they are competing against each other, with the Saudis trying to remove US shale field by driving the price down and them out of business. So why suddenly would these two conspire to control relatively small players. Egypt produces 5% of the amount Saudi Arabia does, Tunisia even less. What is there to gain here for the oil businesses exactly?
Click to expand...

I would say Saudi Arabia is motivated more by religious/territorial reasons (like Yemen), while it is clear the big energy players from all sides have a stake in who controls the region. It's like any game run of Civ 5.

ClosingADoor said:
You bring this all like these countries have planned this shit, but that is simply not the case and impossible to do.
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Funding protests and sparking "revolutions" across the world and history is a well-tested mechanism. It's not that hard to do in the grand scheme of things, especially when they have touchy-feely humanitarian excuses for the ultimate intervention.

Jackpot said:
You've yet to provide any evidence for your speculations and have ignored most of the replies explaining how your posts are wrong.
Click to expand...

From where I'm sitting, it's more like "here are my speculations, and the links detailing some of the evidence I have to base my speculation on", while the other side goes "LOL source. DEBUNKED!"

We won't go very far that way.
 
C

ClosingADoor

Member
El_Tiguere said:
I haven't read up much on Tunisia, but with Egypt, it was clear that the US was ready to play ball with whoever replaced Mubarak. It doesn't change the fact that he Saudis took up the chance in Egypt to spread their Wahhabbi jihad. For Israel, again, Syria's Assad is standing in the way of their existential enemy, Iran.
Click to expand...
You haven't read up on Tunisia, the events which sparked the whole Arab Spring, after which it spread to the other nations. So if you don't know how that one started and what happened, how can you think that all the events following that are planned by other nations? You are ignoring the start of the whole damn thing!
 
P

pigeon

Banned
From where you're sitting, I'm yelling gibberish about how the Jews put fluoride in the drinking water to control us. But from where I'm sitting you've all been FLUORIDATED
 
T

Tovarisc

Member
C9EkZXvVYAA_hSB.jpg

https://twitter.com/BraddJaffy/status/851501865388965889
 
E

El_Tiguere

Member
ClosingADoor said:
You haven't read up on Tunisia, the events which sparked the whole Arab Spring, after which it spread to the other nations. So if you don't know how that one started and what happened, how can you think that all the events following that are planned by other nations? You are ignoring the start of the whole damn thing!
Click to expand...

While the protests in Tunisia could have sprung up organically, it doesn't change the fact that Saudi Arabia, the US, and crew mobilized quickly to make sure the protests and power changes went their way. This is why the US played both sides of the Egypt conflict (and ultimately Saudi Arabia got its Muslim Brotherhood), and it is also why the call for freedom and democracy did not apply to Bahrain, where Saudi Arabia and the US crushed the protesters via force on behalf of the ruling family... because Saudi Arabia can't have a majorly Shiite population getting their way (see also Yemen).

pigeon said:
From where you're sitting, I'm yelling gibberish about how the Jews put fluoride in the drinking water to control us. But from where I'm sitting you've all been FLUORIDATED
Click to expand...

That Straw Man though... if you want to talk about fun Israel stuff, at least we can talk about the far-right Yinon Plan that has been circulating in Israel since the 1980's:

He then proceeds to analyze the weaknesses of Arab countries, by citing what he perceives to be flaws in their national and social structures, concluding that Israel should aim to bring about the fragmentation of the Arab world into a mosaic of ethnic and confessional groupings.[7] 'Every kind of inter-Arab confrontation,' he argued, would prove to be advantageous to Israel in the short term.[15] He saw contemporary events in Lebanon as a foreshadowing of future developments overall throughout the Arab world. The upheavals would create a precedent for guiding Israeli short-term and long-term strategies. Specifically, he asserted that the immediate aim of policy should be the dissolution of the military capabilities of Arab states east of Israel, while the primary long-term goal should work towards the formation of unique areas defined in terms of ethnonational and religious identities.[16]
Click to expand...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yinon_Plan

... they have been betting on that sunni horse for a while now...
 
B

BlastProcessing

Member
FreedomFighter said:
This isn't what we're discussing. We both know that the Wesley Clark interview happened on Democracy Now. If someone who has a questionable channel then uploads said interview, it doesn't then invalidate the Wesley Clark interview. Understand what I mean?
Click to expand...

Do you understand the relationship between text and context? It feels like you don't. An edited video clip of a much longer interview is materially different than the full interview.

When people take in a text, they naturally place it in context with other texts. It's human nature. It's how we interact with information.

By editing out a small bit of an interview, some of the original context is stripped away, but as humans we still need context. The misinformation strategy relies on flooding information channels with hundreds of other contextless clips. The goal is to have people begin to stitch them together using each of the bits of information as context for each other. From there you can begin to build your own narrative that technically uses facts, but ends up at a radically different place.

If you look at any conspiracy theory, from Flat Earthers to 911 Truthers, you will see this manipulation of context.
 
S

Sijil

Member
spindoc said:
There has been peace on the Syrian Israeli border for decades. Bashar is the closest thing to a friend of Israel. They resist 0 Israeli aggression.
Click to expand...

Sure sure, aside from the tons of ammunition, logistics and supplies he gave Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other organizations to fight Israel.

Funny that's the same logic Nusra follows, calling the Regime a border guardian of Israel and yet all those groups setting alongside the border aren't fighting Israel, their enemy according to their religious doctrine but receiving medical aid from them.

I don't see Israel bombing Nusra, rather treating their wounded, on the other hand Assad is the one getting bombed by Israel.

What close friends indeed.....

Israel's wet dream is to get rid of Assad and install and Saudi backed regime, so they can forget about negotiating the Golan heights and cut off vital supply lines to Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad. Any amateur in ME geopolitics knows this.
 
O

Ogodei

Member
Beer Monkey said:
20% of Syria's operational aircraft? I'm calling triple-bullshit on that.
Click to expand...

If we destroyed all 20 stationed there, that could be 20%. If we destroyed only 6, as others state, that's also still possible (Syrian Air Force has been very denuded over the years, and its been a surprise to armchair analysts that they've stayed aloft with their old kit for this long, since nobody's selling them anything, Russia's just lending their air-force flat out).
 
Wag

Wag

Member
Russia is complicit in the chemical attack on Syrian civilians. Shocker. Trump will do nothing of course. It's the leaks which are to blame...
 
C

ClosingADoor

Member
El_Tiguere said:
While the protests in Tunisia could have sprung up organically, it doesn't change the fact that Saudi Arabia, the US, and crew mobilized quickly to make sure the protests and power changes went their way. This is why the US played both sides of the Egypt conflict (and ultimately Saudi Arabia got its Muslim Brotherhood), and it is also why the call for freedom and democracy did not apply to Bahrain, where Saudi Arabia and the US crushed the protesters via force on behalf of the ruling family... because Saudi Arabia can't have a majorly Shiite population getting their way (see also Yemen).
Click to expand...
You are conveniently ignoring the events that sparked the whole situation because this directly conflicts with your narrative that it is all a conspiracy by the US, France, Israel and the Saudis. Nobody is denying they have their interests and there is support for certain factions and them trying to influence things.

But your whole view is that this is somehow all orchestrated by those nations. And when I bring up the events that started it all, you have no knowledge of them and say that it doesn't change things? You are ignoring all things that oppose your views. That is the way conspiracy nuts work.

I also like your wording of "could have sprung up organically" to cast doubt on those events straight away while you don't even have any knowledge of it.
 
S

Sho_Nuff82

Member
BoogieWoogie said:
Whoops, guess this backfired since Trump will do nothing about this:



https://twitter.com/BraddJaffy/status/851513143763316738
Click to expand...

Story is quite a bit darker than that tweet blurb:

AP said:
WASHINGTON (AP) — A senior U.S. official says the United States has concluded that Russia knew in advance of Syria's chemical weapons attack last week.

The official says a Russian-operated drone flew over a hospital in Syria as victims of the attack were rushing to get treatment.

Hours after the drone left, a Russian-made fighter jet bombed the hospital in what American officials believe was an attempt to cover up the usage of chemical weapons.

Until Monday, U.S. officials had said they weren't sure if the drone was operated by Russia or Syria. The senior official said it still wasn't clear who was flying the jet that bombed the hospital.

The official said the presence of the drone couldn't have been a coincidence, and that Russia must have known the chemical weapons attack was coming and that victims were seeking treatment.

The official wasn't authorized to speak publicly on intelligence matters and demanded anonymity.
Click to expand...

Russia intentionally bombing hospitals now?

Edit: Beaten a few posts up.

Edit2: Probably worth its own thread.
 
L

LucidMomentum

Member
But guys, Trump got mad and fired missiles! He's the BEST!

Oh wait, he's been working with Russia who's working with Syria and he just did it to look strong but now it's showing that there's more going on behind the scenes that makes it look worse than it already was before he fired missiles?

Hmm.
 
E

El_Tiguere

Member
ClosingADoor said:
You are conveniently ignoring the events that sparked the whole situation because this directly conflicts with your narrative that it is all a conspiracy by the US, France, Israel and the Saudis.
Click to expand...

My narrative was about the Syrian proxy war between foreign powers from the start, and how Syria has been a target for the West for more than a decade, along with other countries in the region like Libya. Others wanted me to address the Arab Spring in Tunisia and Egypt (which are not in the list), and how it relates to Libya and Syria (which are on the list). They are all clearly connected, and protests can be easily fomented to fit an agenda, but no one has even addressed my narrative of all the ulterior motives going on in Syria (versus the simpleton lazy view of "baddy dictator is gassing his own people cuz he evil, duh!").
 
C

ClosingADoor

Member
El_Tiguere said:
My narrative was about the Syrian proxy war between foreign powers from the start, and how Syria has been a target for the West for more than a decade, along with other countries in the region like Libya. Others wanted me to address the Arab Spring in Tunisia and Egypt (which are not in the list), and how it relates to Libya and Syria (which are on the list). They are all clearly connected, and protests can be easily fomented to fit an agenda, but no one has even addressed my narrative of all the ulterior motives going on in Syria (versus the simpleton lazy view of "baddy dictator is gassing his own people cuz he evil, duh!").
Click to expand...
No, you started with saying that this wasn't even a civil war, going on about how Israel and Saudi Arabia were responsible for it all.

Then you brought in the list of seven countries, bringing that in as some kind of proof that this was a large plan all along, ignoring a ton of events in the region, including the one that sparked the whole Arab Spring in the first place.

You say they are all "clearly connected" but can't tell me how Tunisia - the one that started it all - fits in that narrative. So excuse me for missing the clear connection.

Like I said a few times before, nobody is denying there are ulterior motives, but it is a large step going from that to saying Israel, the US, Saudi Arabia, France and Qatar worked together to do this.
 
C

Condom

Member
So the rebels are happy with the strike and want full on US support, wondering how they see a Trump led coup working out politically. Maybe a pro-Gulf Sunni government to get organisational/rebuilding support? I don't think the US will pay for the development of the new Syria beyond defense (which would already be a huge contribution).
 
F

FreedomFighter

Member
BlastProcessing said:
Do you understand the relationship between text and context? It feels like you don't. An edited video clip of a much longer interview is materially different than the full interview.

When people take in a text, they naturally place it in context with other texts. It's human nature. It's how we interact with information.

By editing out a small bit of an interview, some of the original context is stripped away, but as humans we still need context. The misinformation strategy relies on flooding information channels with hundreds of other contextless clips. The goal is to have people begin to stitch them together using each of the bits of information as context for each other. From there you can begin to build your own narrative that technically uses facts, but ends up at a radically different place.

If you look at any conspiracy theory, from Flat Earthers to 911 Truthers, you will see this manipulation of context.
Click to expand...
Come on now, the relationship between text and context had nothing to do with my misunderstanding of what you were trying to say. What I didn't understand was your point. But we're on the same page now, I see what you're saying. I thought, like I said above, you were saying the interview was bogus because of which youtube channel it appeared on. Not because it was edited. I thought I was clear. Maybe not.
 
R

rambis

Banned
Spicey

"If you gas a baby, if you put a barrel bombing to innocent people, I think you can see a response from this president," Spicer said in response to a question during his daily briefing. "That's unacceptable."
Click to expand...

But before this, bullets and mortars were A-OK?
 
B

Bam Bam Baklava

Member
Toxi said:
I'm interested how exactly you think this will be a worse mistake than the Iraq War.
Click to expand...

Should things escalate it has the potential to be much worse than Iraq. No reliable allies on the ground to align with, far more involvement from Russia/Iran/Turkey/Kurds in the region, and then there's that whole ISIS group.

It's a powder keg waiting to explode in ways that even the best military minds cannot even imagine.
 
R

rjinaz

Member
Melkr_ said:
This will prove a bigger mistake than Irak's. And liberals are actually championing this. Disgraceful.
Click to expand...

I like how this was done by a Republican president with plenty of Republican support and you still somehow find a way to throw shade at the liberals. It must be confusing to see both sides in everything.
 
E

EatinOlives

Member
Sorry for not being caught up on this, but did anyone ask Spicey at today's press briefing about Trump's raging hypocrisy regarding Syrian refugees? Is he about to start accepting them or do his crocodile tears extend only to bombing their country?
 
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